Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition

[WinsingtonIII]

I guess a gladius, being made mostly of metal, might be heavier than most one-handed axes, since they are made mostly of wood with only the metal head. That could explain the difference in force.

[vartan]

I guess a gladius, being made mostly of metal, might be heavier than most one-handed axes, since they are made mostly of wood with only the metal head. That could explain the difference in force.

A penetrating axe, weighing in at 2.2 lbs, attacking at a speed of 48 feet per second, with an impact area of 0.5 inches (of course...as it's a PENETRATING axe!), with a wound area of 1.75 inches, yields an impact energy of 77.5 foot-pounds.
A gladius, weighing in at 1.8 lbs, hacking at 60 feet per second (as it weighs less), with an impact area of 1.5 inches, and a wound area of 4 inches, yields an impact energy of 101 foot-pounds.
Ouch.

[Duguntz]

and then they had to change the foot-pound for foot-tons, when chuck norris came to the world...

[Cute Wolf]

well, at least gladius must have somewhat higher lethality then... or maybe sightly higher lethality than normal shortswords, and sightly higher damage.... *back to doing something again*

[Julianus]

To me all greek low-end troops are surprisingly good.
Once attacked by a 3/4 stack Roman army consists of Hastati, Principle, Triarii and Samnite Infantry, etc, and led by their consul with a huge bodyguard, almost 100 horses.
While as Epeiros I had about only 4 Hoplitai Haploi, 2 Phyletichoi Illyrioi, 2 Akontistai, 1 Sphendonetai, and led by a 1-star general, the only advantage of mine is I've got a little more cavalry, 1 Illyrioi Hippeis and 1 Hippeis Tarantinoi but both of them only half strength, so if you count the horse heads, I don't really have much more than them.
Since my infantry are so heavily outnumbered and outclassed by the Romaioi, I had to deploy them rather thin, and brought up the 2 Akontistai, even Sphendonetai to help hold the line. But I carefully kept a solid line, with every unit protected by adjacent friend units, only the 2 Hoplitai Haploi deployed on the extreme left and right flank got half surrounded by the Romans, which could not be helped, but they got assistance from the Akontistai and Sphendonetai after they spent all their ammo.
It took me quite some time to dispose of the Roman consul because of his large bodyguard, and when I was able to turn back and charge into the rear of the Roman legionaries, all my infantry troops had lost more than half their men and hardly pressed by the Romans, but all held their ground well, morale steady including the skirmishers while the Romans got tired even exhausted.
Hence I got a heroic victory I didn't look forward to. Ah of course, the battle difficulty level was Medium.

[vartan]

Battle difficulty was as it should have been: Medium. Your maneuvering proved decisive. Good thing the Romans failed to defend their cavalry.

[Dram]

Just noticed the Babylonian spearmen have 0.165 lethality AP maces as their secondary weapon, same weapon the cataphracts use as their sidearm. They absolutely kick ass! Just remember to alt-click so they use the mace instead of the crappy spear!

[Silence Hunter]

Yea, these Babylonian spearmen are perfect anti-cataphract (or other heavy cav) troops. They have both spear and AP mace - extremely nasty combination when opposing heavy cavalry. As Hayasdan I used to put them on the left flank, where the enemy cataphract and general charge was expected and these guys made mince meat of them numerous times.

[Grade_A_Beef]

I love those babylonian speamen as well. The biggest gripe I have with them however is their limited recruitment (Seleukia, Babylon, and that province at the mouth of the Tigris,) and their god awful MIC. A level 4 MIC is pretty demanding, not to mention that the Shipri Tukul are only about as powerful as Thureophoroi.

It's a good thing they're common mercs in Persia, or I wouldn't use them much at all.....that said, they're probably the best anti-armor infantry unit you'll get if you play as Pahlava

[satalexton]

To me all greek low-end troops are surprisingly good.
Once attacked by a 3/4 stack Roman army consists of Hastati, Principle, Triarii and Samnite Infantry, etc, and led by their consul with a huge bodyguard, almost 100 horses.
While as Epeiros I had about only 4 Hoplitai Haploi, 2 Phyletichoi Illyrioi, 2 Akontistai, 1 Sphendonetai, and led by a 1-star general, the only advantage of mine is I've got a little more cavalry, 1 Illyrioi Hippeis and 1 Hippeis Tarantinoi but both of them only half strength, so if you count the horse heads, I don't really have much more than them.
Since my infantry are so heavily outnumbered and outclassed by the Romaioi, I had to deploy them rather thin, and brought up the 2 Akontistai, even Sphendonetai to help hold the line. But I carefully kept a solid line, with every unit protected by adjacent friend units, only the 2 Hoplitai Haploi deployed on the extreme left and right flank got half surrounded by the Romans, which could not be helped, but they got assistance from the Akontistai and Sphendonetai after they spent all their ammo.
It took me quite some time to dispose of the Roman consul because of his large bodyguard, and when I was able to turn back and charge into the rear of the Roman legionaries, all my infantry troops had lost more than half their men and hardly pressed by the Romans, but all held their ground well, morale steady including the skirmishers while the Romans got tired even exhausted.
Hence I got a heroic victory I didn't look forward to. Ah of course, the battle difficulty level was Medium.

My friend, you deserve a for being a heroic Romaioktonoi!

[athanaric]

Everyone knows about Batacorii, but here's a truly great unit that proved to be instrumental to my Swêboz campaigns, perhaps as much as Dugundiz, Iaosatae, and Leuce Epos:
The Gaisolitho Aljod. These guys have decent morale like Dugundiz (though 1 point less than Batacorii), a big shield and great javelin range like Batacorii, and more important - a huge recruitment area. For Suebi, they can be trained in all Celtic regions except for Ireland. Surprisingly resilient even in the face of Roman legions. Not to mention looking great (especially the Suebi variant - the Arverni one seriously needs baguettes for javelins).

Also, their "little brother" shouldn't go unnoticed - the Cemmeinarn (Briton Midland Spearmen) (second row), who have the same shield (and skin) and even better javelin range, though slightly inferior stats otherwise.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Duguntz]

That's greeeat! what MIC do I have to built to get them? I got them only in my southern provinces... and I never got to used those guys properly

[athanaric]

Factional MIC level 3. Available in all Celtic/celticized provinces except for Ireland. Gauls can only recruit them in Germanic provinces.

[ertai1987]

Leuce Epos, I'm really fond of light cav and this one is simply the best, not only it has very good stamina and an excellent range for its javelin, but it can actually charge too. The only drawback is that it needs a high lvl MIC.

Tindanotae, I hired them as merceneries for the first time in my current Epeiros game, and I must say they are actually NOT overpriced. I don't usually play with elite units, because I don't like their low manpower and high cost, but that fear effect is...awesome.

[Fluvius Camillus]

Leuce Epos, I'm really fond of light cav and this one is simply the best, not only it has very good stamina and an excellent range for its javelin, but it can actually charge too. The only drawback is that it needs a high lvl MIC.

Tindanotae, I hired them as merceneries for the first time in my current Epeiros game, and I must say they are actually NOT overpriced. I don't usually play with elite units, because I don't like their low manpower and high cost, but that fear effect is...awesome.

1. Yes indeed, I barely make tactical use of the javelins but the charge is quite good, and these fast guys are great at chasing down routers!

2. I love elite units, but you are right Tindanotae are the AI's nightmare! If you buy them they will accompany you for a long time, because they don't die much. The fear effect is battle winning, just use them to charge the enemy in the rear of possible, you usally win then! Even the AI had some succes with them in my Seleukid game. I thougth I could pin the down using Pantodapoi Phalanghitai and then focus on the main battle. WRONG! They FRONTALLY slaughtered them, losing around 5 men. But after that it was AI tactics again, I had them routing after repeated BG charges. I got them as factional unit now in my Seleukid campaign.... Epeiros will tremble!

~Fluvius

[Dram]

leuce epos are amazing... great value, wide recruitment range and fast moving and great stamina, yet they ride medium mounts and have a great charge. i usually dont bother recruiting anything heavier!

[ertai1987]

plus, they have an interesting command sound, I sometimes catch myself mimicing a rather excited Conan yelling LUK...EEEEPOS! :D

[gamegeek2]

Necro. This is a great thread that deserves to be up, and is informing and important. It should also be added to the "list of tactical advice" thread.

[Cute Wolf]

I think all unit are allready mentioned gamegeek...

[WinsingtonIII]

I think all unit are allready mentioned gamegeek...

Probably true, but I still like the thread too.

Just to keep it going, I'll mention a unit that may or may not have been mentioned here many moons ago.



Bnei Shevet 'Arabim (Arabian Light Infantry)

They may be lightly armored, but these guys hold out surprisingly well in melee. They have quite decent morale (11), 200 men in a unit (on huge), are excellent skirmishers, and perhaps most importantly, they carry a spear as a secondary and are quite good with it. I'm consistently impressed with the performance these troops put up in melee, they hold out quite well and deal out pretty considerable casualties. They're particularly suited to guarding flanks because they can use the position to get some devestating flank volleys of javelins in on the enemy infantry and then receive cavalry charges with their spears if need be. Truly all around versatile troops, and I tend to recruit them whenever I'm in the area.

Realistically, Arabian and particularly Sabaen troops in general tend to put up a much better melee fight than expected considering their equipment. They often have quite high morale and resolve considering their cost and availability. For instance, Sabaen Levy Spears have 13 morale, which surprised me quite a bit when I first noticed.

[vartan]

Realistically, Arabian and particularly Sabaen troops in general tend to put up a much better melee fight than expected considering their equipment. They often have quite high morale and resolve considering their cost and availability. For instance, Sabaen Levy Spears have 13 morale, which surprised me quite a bit when I first noticed.

Raised from the urban population of Sabaean society, these men, armed with spears and shields, are the bedrock of the Sabaean military machine.

You can say that again. These beasts of fury () proved themselves in the infamous July 2009 EB Online Tournament, holding their ground against the Roman adversary in many 2v2 team battles online, giving the team enough stalling time to use their combined cavalry arm decisively.

[Moros]

Raised from the urban population of Sabaean society, these men, armed with spears and shields, are the bedrock of the Sabaean military machine.

You can say that again. These beasts of fury () proved themselves in the infamous July 2009 EB Online Tournament, holding their ground against the Roman adversary in many 2v2 team battles online, giving the team enough stalling time to use their combined cavalry arm decisively.

Cool.

[Cute Wolf]

too bad, Saby'n have good levy units, but their assilinmodara nobles is very - very crappy, except their morale of course... they are "surprisingly" bad units. (personally, I change them into sword-wielding bodyguard models one)

[plutoboyz]

these dude are just amazing.

[vartan]

leuce epos are amazing... great value, wide recruitment range and fast moving and great stamina, yet they ride medium mounts and have a great charge. i usually dont bother recruiting anything heavier!

You mean these guys? They're bad*** IMO.

[Moros]

too bad, Saby'n have good levy units, but their assilinmodara nobles is very - very crappy, except their morale of course... they are "surprisingly" bad units. (personally, I change them into sword-wielding bodyguard models one)

I don't really understand why they are considered crappy. They are perhaps no match one on one for hellenistic heavy infantry, but one should expect that. They only wear leather padded jackets and a helmet so one can't expect them to go toe to toe with much more armoured troops. They however give you the ability to last longer against other units than you're lighter ones, so that you have more time and an easier time trying to use your superior tactics to win a battle. As with the Sabaeans it'll be your tactics that should get you to victory, not superior forces. It's the bodyguard unit you need to use to secure your gaps with or to use as an attacking force on the enemies weak spots. That's probably the problem with Saba', that they don't have much attacking/flanking/... units except for their bodyguards. In EB II however there'll be one such unit as there was a historically attested unit that played this role.

[Cute Wolf]

umm Moros, I think the Redsea axemen is an excellent flanking units for Sabyn, and their citizen spearmen (when it comes to hold), are more effective than their nobles for holding the line. It was good to have some strong units for the Sabyn

I said Assilinmoddara as crappy because they are supposed to be elites, but still die fast and don't kill fast...

[Moros]

The Red Sea axemen are strictly speaking not Sabaeans or part fo any other ancient Sayhad ethnicity. They are usefull and closeby regionals, falxmen for example aren't the Makedonian attacking forces either you know. In EB II the Sabaean will still be able to count on some axe wielding regionals as well, no worries.

The corresponding EBII unit of the nobles will remain about the same. Don't expect any really heavy Sabaean units in EBII, they didn't exist. However there'll be an increase in tactical possiblities for the Sabaeans when it comes to their infantry. Sadly it'll be at the cost of cavalry, as horses were only introduced most likely after our timeframe. But again some new but very exciting regionals shall easily fill that gap.

I'm revealing to much already... I need to leave some secrets for a preview...

[seienchin]

Cool. Finally a realistic saba. :)
EBII looks sooo promising to deliver a game as close as reality as it can get for a game.
On the other hand I cant imagine fighting only foot battles with the germanics. gauls or sabeans most of the game. ^^

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

Only foot battles are the best. Why? Well you actually have a chance of losing.