The Saville report into Bloody Sunday

[Beskar]

People can kiss and make-up, and move on. Only a good thing.

[Rhyfelwyr]

there are IRA scum walking free to this day because 'reconciliation' was needed, well that works both ways.

Never mind walking free, they are sitting in Stormont!

People can kiss and make-up, and move on. Only a good thing.

Well if they had been doing that why have this report?

The whole thing just seems like some feel-good politics, regardless of the reality. It's like with the arms decomissioning, yeah let them hand in some redundant weapons that are decades old. Loyalist communities got some investment out of it, some killers got off the hook, and the government gets to tell people the paramilitaries are disarmed. Then the UVF goes and shoots people in broad daylight...

[gaelic cowboy]

I am deeply depressed at the majority of the posts does everyone think I posted some kind of tribal point scoring for the IRA is that what you all think I did.

Amazingly I had deleted two posts precisely because I wanted to avoid getting stuck in a swamp of "what about this" and "what about that" back and forth all day

Truly the land of the dreary steeples

Is the peace that fragile and the truth that toxic that we cannot say yes this is what we must do.

[johnhughthom]

Personally I thought you posted something along the lines of "States and the armies representing States should always be held accountable for crimes against civilians, hence the comparison with treatment of terrorists is irrelevant."

edit: replying to gaelic cowboy.

[gaelic cowboy]

Personally I thought you posted something along the lines of "States and the armies representing States should always be held accountable for crimes against civilians, hence the comparison with treatment of terrorists is irrelevant."

edit: replying to gaelic cowboy.

Exactly my point

They should be held to a higher standard and they should act in good faith even when one or both side of communities may not act the same back.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Hah! Ninja'd! I sneaked in one of those irritating posts that are submitted just before a reply to somebody else.


Edit: As is the way of the world, I have just been ninja'd in the exact same manner myself.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I am deeply depressed at the majority of the posts does everyone think I posted some kind of tribal point scoring for the IRA is that what you all think I did.

If that was what we thought the reaction would have been violent. It has not been, we merely catagorically refuse to accept your point.

Amazingly I had deleted two posts precisely because I wanted to avoid getting stuck in a swamp of "what about this" and "what about that" back and forth all day

Truly the land of the dreary steeples

Is the peace that fragile and the truth that toxic that we cannot say yes this is what we must do.

You can't distinguish between the two without de-ligimising the entire Peace Process, because it relies on allowing that the PIRA was a legitimate paramilitary movement, and that their break-away groups were not. We also allow that the UVF was a legitimate militia to protect civilians.

The things you accused the paratroopers of doing (of which no individual can now EVER be convicted due to massive degradation of evidence) is exactly the same those things done by the First Minister of Northern Ireland.

He is a politician, they are all retired soldiers (some who went into special forces) drawing pensions. You cannot possibly prosecute one and not the other.

Prosecutions would not be in the public interest, they would simply harm the soldiers and their families and friends. They would also harm the regiment at a time when it is fightingt hard in Afganistan.

[gaelic cowboy]

If that was what we thought the reaction would have been violent. It has not been, we merely catagorically refuse to accept your point.

Why do you not accept the point that they should be prosecuted why should anyone be protected?????

You can't distinguish between the two without de-ligimising the entire Peace Process, because it relies on allowing that the PIRA was a legitimate paramilitary movement, and that their break-away groups were not. We also allow that the UVF was a legitimate militia to protect civilians.

This I may concede but I dont like it maybe if the governments had shown some backbone and helped SDLP an UUP things might be differant.

The things you accused the paratroopers of doing (of which no individual can now EVER be convicted due to massive degradation of evidence) is exactly the same those things done by the First Minister of Northern Ireland.

He is a politician, they are all retired soldiers (some who went into special forces) drawing pensions. You cannot possibly prosecute one and not the other.

Prosecutions would not be in the public interest, they would simply harm the soldiers and their families and friends. They would also harm the regiment at a time when it is fightingt hard in Afganistan.

All irrelevant if taken in the context of my thinking he would not even be in Stormont and so the need to molly coddle the "Regiment" would not exist.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Why do you not accept the point that they should be prosecuted why should anyone be protected?????

It will not be accepted because no one else will be prosecuted in connection with violence. Since justice has to be applied equally it would be unjust to prosecute the soldiers.

This I may concede but I dont like it maybe if the governments had shown some backbone and helped SDLP an UUP things might be differant.

I didn't say I liked it, but it's how you achieve peace. In any case, if the PIRA aren't legitimate you then have to ask if the (operationally similar) IRA were; i.e. is Ireland legitimately independant. I don't think anyone wants to go there.

All irrelevant if taken in the context of my thinking he would not even be in Stormont and so the need to molly coddle the "Regiment" would not exist.

Thinking you at no point make clear. Calling for the prosecution of the paratroopers does not presuppose the prosecution of the First Minister.

[Fragony]

Now was that so hard

[gaelic cowboy]

I didn't say I liked it, but it's how you achieve peace. In any case, if the PIRA aren't legitimate you then have to ask if the (operationally similar) IRA were; i.e. is Ireland legitimately independant. I don't think anyone wants to go there.

Some other time I will maybe post on this but not here in this thread it would not be correct in my view.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Excellent report*, long overdue.

*Or such is my wild guess, since I have of course not read a single letter of it.



To prosecute or not to prosecute - I am not sure what I think should be done.
South Africa didn't prosecute. Germany did. Sharpeville shooters still go free, there has been a truth and reconcilliation effort. German soldiers are prosecuted for having shot unarmed people at the wall, often decades later. The thought behind the latter is that there are innate human values a soldier needs to adhere to. There is no such thing as 'order is order'.

Which would be my verdict about the paramilitary too: the politicians are to blame, but so is each and every single soldier who partook in the shootings. They can not be excused by saying that they shouldn't have been put in that position.

As we speak, Demjanjuk - ninety years old - is prosecuted for crimes committed in the 1940's. Part of me rejoices at the sight of seeing a murderer prosecuted, of whatever age, however long ago it may have been.