The Saville report into Bloody Sunday

[gaelic cowboy]

If that was what we thought the reaction would have been violent. It has not been, we merely catagorically refuse to accept your point.

Why do you not accept the point that they should be prosecuted why should anyone be protected?????

You can't distinguish between the two without de-ligimising the entire Peace Process, because it relies on allowing that the PIRA was a legitimate paramilitary movement, and that their break-away groups were not. We also allow that the UVF was a legitimate militia to protect civilians.

This I may concede but I dont like it maybe if the governments had shown some backbone and helped SDLP an UUP things might be differant.

The things you accused the paratroopers of doing (of which no individual can now EVER be convicted due to massive degradation of evidence) is exactly the same those things done by the First Minister of Northern Ireland.

He is a politician, they are all retired soldiers (some who went into special forces) drawing pensions. You cannot possibly prosecute one and not the other.

Prosecutions would not be in the public interest, they would simply harm the soldiers and their families and friends. They would also harm the regiment at a time when it is fightingt hard in Afganistan.

All irrelevant if taken in the context of my thinking he would not even be in Stormont and so the need to molly coddle the "Regiment" would not exist.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Why do you not accept the point that they should be prosecuted why should anyone be protected?????

It will not be accepted because no one else will be prosecuted in connection with violence. Since justice has to be applied equally it would be unjust to prosecute the soldiers.

This I may concede but I dont like it maybe if the governments had shown some backbone and helped SDLP an UUP things might be differant.

I didn't say I liked it, but it's how you achieve peace. In any case, if the PIRA aren't legitimate you then have to ask if the (operationally similar) IRA were; i.e. is Ireland legitimately independant. I don't think anyone wants to go there.

All irrelevant if taken in the context of my thinking he would not even be in Stormont and so the need to molly coddle the "Regiment" would not exist.

Thinking you at no point make clear. Calling for the prosecution of the paratroopers does not presuppose the prosecution of the First Minister.

[Fragony]

Now was that so hard

[Idaho]

I don't see any point in trying to identify/prosecute the soldiers. The whole point of the NI peace agreement was that we moved on and buried the past. This latest report should just be an adendum to the tombstone.

[gaelic cowboy]

All right then I say let them go free so, I will move on and I will say let them be given same treatment as the IRA/UVF etc I am big enough to accept that this is what must be done for the peace.

But I want to see them condemned just like the IRA/UVF types if one side are scum so are these men who are nothing but murderers in my view.

Fair play to Cameron yesterday he rightly condemned these men he could see that the families of the bereaved deserved an apology and that giving such did not weaken Britain but strengthen it in my view.

Long may peace and good relations continue between our two islands.


Included some reaction and articles on Bloody Sunday as usual the last link by Kevin Myers is full of historical nuggets the man is a veritable one man history book.

How the victims died

Cowen welcomes vindication at last for murdered civilians


Article on Parachute regiment and IRA makes depressing reading

[Pannonian]

All right then I say let them go free so, I will move on and I will say let them be given same treatment as the IRA/UVF etc I am big enough to accept that this is what must be done for the peace.

But I want to see them condemned just like the IRA/UVF types if one side are scum so are these men who are nothing but murderers in my view.

The IRA aren't scum. They're a chapter in the history books which has hopefully been consigned to the past thanks to our hardworking politicians. That the IRA and our hardworking politicians may be the same people is beside the point.

[gaelic cowboy]

I didn't say I liked it, but it's how you achieve peace. In any case, if the PIRA aren't legitimate you then have to ask if the (operationally similar) IRA were; i.e. is Ireland legitimately independant. I don't think anyone wants to go there.

Some other time I will maybe post on this but not here in this thread it would not be correct in my view.

[Banquo's Ghost]

It should be noted that it is perfectly possible to prosecute the soldiers. The question is more; is it desirable?

The soldiers are identified and gave evidence to the inquiry. Several soldiers admitted to the shootings and cross-referencing other evidence gives complete credence to these admissions. Several (notably Lance Corporal F) were found to have shot people in the back, under flags of truce and whilst running away: and admitted as much.

However, this testimony was given under an agreement of immunity from prosecution using evidence from self-incrimination. Not, it should be noted, immunity from the use of evidence provided by others. The evidence for most of the soldiers is incomplete without their own testimony, but my understanding is that Lance Corporal F at least, could be stitched up like a kipper.

The fact remains that justice is done to serve a greater purpose than mere revenge. Prosecutions in the United Kingdom must pass a "public interest" test. The majority of the bereaved families were concerned with clearing the names of the fallen, which the Widgery report had falsely and maliciously blackened to protect the paratroops and the British government. Those murdered have been proven entirely innocent. The British government has issued a clear and gracious apology. Further prosecutions therefore, are desired only from a sense of revenge, to open old wounds - the curse of this island since the Tuatha Dé Danann moved underground.

An interesting tangent has opened up however: that the soldiers and some officials lied consistently to Her Majesty's Inquiries under oath. This is a perversion of the British justice system and is therefore a matter for HM Government, which has to decide whether it feels comfortable with officers and soldiers of the Crown committing widespread perjury in her courts.

(Oh, and Philipvs - the Republic's legitimacy as an independent state is recognised by treaty, international law and in fact. It's establishment thereas has no relation whatsoever to the perceived status of those who so established it - any more than the independence of the United States is lessened by you considering her founders as rebels).

[Louis VI the Fat]

The fact remains that justice is done to serve a greater purpose than mere revenge.

But a greater good is served by prosecution. A good that trancends the British Isles.

Grave human rights transgressions are prosecuted to show all states, all armies, that human rights exists. It prevents states from grossly infringing on human rights by showing that it can't be done with impunity, regardles of internal politics, or settlements of conflicts.
It prevents men of arms from hiding behind a uniform, from hiding behind 'an order is an order'. It imposes morality on armies.

That is why I supported Garzon in prosecuting Pinochet, regardless of the Chilean resolution of the conflict. It is why I support current Argentinean and Spanish attempts to prosecute junta members and the military, despite their protests of 'let bygones be bygones, for the sake of internal peace'.


Lies and deceit for decades, cover-ups, combined with a self-declared amnesty, both kept up for decades until sheer passage of time becomes their argument for absolution. The pattern is the same everywhere.

A relentless pursuit of war crimes, international, with a patience and memory that outlasts a few decades of cover-ups - I'm all for it. If anything, it makes clear that there is a limit to the amount of violence a state or individual can use against civilians. It will make them think twice before employing it, and it embolds the ones who protest or refuse to participate.

[Banquo's Ghost]

But a greater good is served by prosecution. A good that trancends the British Isles.

Grave human rights transgressions are prosecuted to show all states, all armies, that human rights exists. It prevents states from grossly infringing on human rights by showing that it can not be done without impunity, regardles of internal politics, or settlements of conflicts.
It prevents men of arms from hiding behind a uniform, hidong behind 'an order is an order', and imposes morality on armies.

That is why I supported Garzon in prosecuting Pinochet, regardless of the Chilean resolution of the conflict. It is why I support current Argentinean and Spanish attempts to prosecute junta members and the military, despite their protests of 'let bygone's be bygone's for the sake of internal peace'.

Lies and deceit for decades, cover-ups, combined with a self-declared amnesty, kept up for decades until sheer passage of time becomes their argument for absolution. The pattern is the same everywhere.

A relentless pursuit of war crimes, international, with a patience and memory that outlasts a few decades of cover-ups - I'm all for it. If anything, it makes clear that there is a limit to the amount of violence a state or individual can use against civilians. It will make them think twice before employing it, and it embolds the ones who protest or refuse to participate.

I agree with you in every respect - in principle.

However, there is also realpolitik. To pursue prosecutions in this case, whilst right in principle, would re-open cans of worms across this island. To pursue your principle, it would be necessary to also re-imprison the paramilitaries and charge several key members of the devolved government - and indeed, several now retired government ministers (including Prime Ministers) in both the Republic and United Kingdom. There also exists prima facie evidence to demand the extradition of several US senators.

Such prosecutions would destroy the peace process and alienate the unionist community even further. This would provoke the cycle of violence again, and more innocents would die at the hands of murderers on both sides. A high price to pay for principle, don't you think?

As I noted previously, the curse of this island of Ireland is that we are held in thrall to history. Just this once, at the cost of a few gulps of bile, let us move on and forgive each other.

[Pannonian]

Such prosecutions would destroy the peace process and alienate the unionist community even further. This would provoke the cycle of violence again, and more innocents would die at the hands of murderers on both sides. A high price to pay for principle, don't you think?

Not at all. It's only British and Northern Irish who will be inconvenienced by any resumption of violence, whereas the message that justice is inescapable can be sent throughout the world, so the prosecution of the fighters on either side is entirely worthwhile. I presume the French, Irish, Americans, and whoever else wants to restart the Ulster Game will be happy to pay for the weregeld and reconstruction costs.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

All right then I say let them go free so, I will move on and I will say let them be given same treatment as the IRA/UVF etc I am big enough to accept that this is what must be done for the peace.

But I want to see them condemned just like the IRA/UVF types if one side are scum so are these men who are nothing but murderers in my view.

Fair play to Cameron yesterday he rightly condemned these men he could see that the families of the bereaved deserved an apology and that giving such did not weaken Britain but strengthen it in my view.

Long may peace and good relations continue between our two islands.


Included some reaction and articles on Bloody Sunday as usual the last link by Kevin Myers is full of historical nuggets the man is a veritable one man history book.

How the victims died

Cowen welcomes vindication at last for murdered civilians


Article on Parachute regiment and IRA makes depressing reading

I agree completely, nor do I think these soldiers are in any way blameless. I would, however, point out that the paratroopers were deployed by HM Government as peacekeepers (why you would do such a thing being beside the point), and I remain suspicious about the beginning of the killings, viz why the PIRA were there and what they did.

(Oh, and Philipvs - the Republic's legitimacy as an independent state is recognised by treaty, international law and in fact. It's establishment thereas has no relation whatsoever to the perceived status of those who so established it - any more than the independence of the United States is lessened by you considering her founders as rebels).

Yes, I do realise that. Leaving aside how I feel about the various gripes of the Irish people from the perspective of a provincial Englishman, I am not suggesting that Ireland is not a legitimate State. However, many of the men who governed Ireland when it initially broke from the rest of the UK were, if I recall correctly, of a similar strike as those currently sat in Stormont.

Those were the people the British Crown dealt with to create that peace.

[gaelic cowboy]

Yes, I do realise that. Leaving aside how I feel about the various gripes of the Irish people from the perspective of a provincial Englishman, I am not suggesting that Ireland is not a legitimate State. However, many of the men who governed Ireland when it initially broke from the rest of the UK were, if I recall correctly, of a similar strike as those currently sat in Stormont.

Those were the people the British Crown dealt with to create that peace.

Somewhat but not fully, we declared independence first through our elected representatives after the 1918 election.

Griffith, de Valera, Collins, Cosgrave etc etc all elected to UK parliament we declared UDI and the IRA acted as the armed forces of a state as we saw it.



Oh and the biggest event in propelling us to freedom was WW1, the Conscription Crisis as it became known unified people against British rule more than any event even 1916.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Those were the people the British Crown dealt with to create that peace.

All of the people His Majesty's Governments have ever dealt with for independence negotiations anywhere had been previously considered violent thugs, terrorists.

A few bombs explode, people get killed. Then the regular army is deployed to kill even more people, after which the Crown then negotiates a settlement - in an atmosphere of perceived moral superiority, and of concessions made to thugs, nobly granted to keep the peace.


That is how the big empire can think itself a beacon of liberty, a bastion of sanity and reason, in an otherwise insane world.

[Pannonian]

All the people His Majesty's Governments have ever dealt with for independence negotiations anywhere had been previously considered violent thugs, terrorists.

A few bombs explode, people get killed, then the regular army is deployed to kill even more people, after which the Crown then negotiates a settlement - in an atmosphere of perceived moral superiority, and of concessions made to thugs, nobly granted to keep the peace.


That is how the big empire can think itself a beacon of liberty, a bastion of sanity and reason, in an otherwise insane world.

If we're not thuggish enough to forcibly keep them down, then we'll need to make some kind of accommodation so they'll keep their thuggish elements in check. It's how any state is formed and kept together, ie. the monopoly of organised force. Your own city declared independence or semi-independence following the Franco-Prussian war, but got beaten down by the national government's forces. Tens of thusands dead to reach an absolute conclusion. I prefer our way of doublespeak and looking the other way where expedient. In Britain, double figures is a massacre.

[Megas Methuselah]

All the people His Majesty's Governments have ever dealt with for independence negotiations anywhere had been previously considered violent thugs, terrorists.

A few bombs explode, people get killed, then the regular army is deployed to kill even more people, after which the Crown then negotiates a settlement - in an atmosphere of perceived moral superiority, and of concessions made to thugs, nobly granted to keep the peace.


That is how the big empire can think itself a beacon of liberty, a bastion of sanity and reason, in an otherwise insane world.

I cannot possibly emphasize how true this statement is.