Rabbit Season

[Sasaki Kojiro]

But eating meat isn't immoral. Regardless of the fact that personally killing animals is unpleasant. I'm not really feeling you on this one lemur, though I've heard people say this before. The argument seems to be tangled up somehow. If it was wrong to kill animals, it would be wrong to buy meat at the grocery store. But since it isn't, it isn't. Our willingness to kill them ourselves is irrelevant. A kleptomaniac may be willing to steal but that has no bearing no the morality of theft. I think it's just one of those vegetarian arguments, I saw it on a billboard somewhere once.

I think if I claimed that using a toilet was immoral, and used the argument that you wouldn't be willing to clean a septic tank, it would be a parallel argument. And you would in no way have to prove your moral soundness by actually cleaning a septic tank.

I'm not opposed to personally killing animals (have done so), but I'm not going to go out of my way to, it's unpleasant. And it's a good think that it's unpleasant. That's an important instinct. The most valid argument made by vegetarians is that regularly killing animals hardens people and weakens that instinct. I don't think it's a coincidence that dog fighting and such were more popular in times when people more often killed animals themselves. Grabbing a box in a grocery store doesn't weaken that instinct.

-edit-

Wow, that ended up long and rambling. Anyway, in summary, I think vegetarianism and animal rights is a complex debate, and that the pro-eating them argument is not helped in the slightest by a willingness to kill the animals by hand. If someone said they didn't think stealing was immoral and I disagreed, I would not be impressed by their willingness to rob a gas station even if they are now less of a know-nothing.

[Lemur]

Louis, of course I couldn't. That one is too young and has too little meat on his bones; complete waste of time.

But eating meat isn't immoral.

I think this is where we diverge; I don't think eating meat is immoral, rather, I think there is a moral dimension to eating meat. You're asking for another creature to die so you can have a tasty snack. How can that not be a moral choice? Likewise, we can all survive quite nicely without meat, and meat requires greater resources to produce. So as a meat-eater, I feel that I need to be okay with all dimenions of my choice.

You compare meat-eating with theft (twice), as though a morally wrong choice is comparable to a morally ambiguous choice like eating meat. I think this is where we part company.

[miotas]

Living things must die for me to live, debating the morality of which living things and whether I kill it personally or get a farmer/meatworks to kill it for me is splitting hairs. The economic and ecological points have merit however.

[Vladimir]

Living things must die for me to live, debating the morality of which living things and whether I kill it personally or get a farmer/meatworks to kill it for me is splitting hairs.

Puneriffic.

[Louis VI the Fat]

There is a moral dimension to eating meat. So I think one ought to be aware where meat comes from.

Ham does not grow in the frozen foods section of your supermarket. It grows on real, living cows and needs to be sliced off of them, often causing the cow much distress.


If one is unaware of this fact, needless maltreatment of animals looms.

I do not think it means one has to be prepared to personally kill animals to eat meat. It's gross, bloody. (Not to mention, a profession I think is best left to professionals, or people who know exactly what they're doing) I am all for transplanting human organs, but it does not mean I am willing to cut out a kidney from a human corpse. Unless in case of emergency, which is, like the odds of me having to kill for food, not very likely to happen.

[Samurai Waki]

For some odd reason I was doing a quick lurk, and saw this thread. Anywho, I used to raise rabbits for meat, (used to be in 4H) and while I've used the neck breaking technique there is an equally humane and quick way to do it as well (as long as you've got the hardware). Which I'm sure you can scrape together in no time.

The problem with chopping it's head off, or bludgeoning it with a hammer, or even shooting it, is it leaves a small margin of error for painful death, and a bloody mess to boot.

Here's a quick "educational video" that shows the method I used to great effect. (Warning: Involves Rabbit Death)

Good Luck Lemur

[Rob The Bastard]

Wow... re the video... can't argue that wasn't swift enough. Very basic hardware, but about as effective as you can get.

[Vladimir]

For some odd reason I was doing a quick lurk, and saw this thread. Anywho, I used to raise rabbits for meat, (used to be in 4H) and while I've used the neck breaking technique there is an equally humane and quick way to do it as well (as long as you've got the hardware). Which I'm sure you can scrape together in no time.

The problem with chopping it's head off, or bludgeoning it with a hammer, or even shooting it, is it leaves a small margin of error for painful death, and a bloody mess to boot.

Here's a quick "educational video" that shows the method I used to great effect. (Warning: Involves Rabbit Death)

Good Luck Lemur

Interesting. Reminds me of killing chickens. Although my uncle liked finding new ways to remove their heads. Very disturbing. Blood EVERYWHERE!

[Vladimir]

There is a moral dimension to eating meat. So I think one ought to be aware where meat comes from.

Ham does not grow in the frozen foods section of your supermarket. It grows on real, living cows and needs to be sliced off of them, often causing the cow much distress.


If one is unaware of this fact, needless maltreatment of animals looms.

I do not think it means one has to be prepared to personally kill animals to eat meat. It's gross, bloody. (Not to mention, a profession I think is best left to professionals, or people who know exactly what they're doing) I am all for transplanting human organs, but it does not mean I am willing to cut out a kidney from a human corpse. Unless in case of emergency, which is, like the odds of me having to kill for food, not very likely to happen.

OK, I find this offensive. No self-respecting Frenchman should eat frozen ham. I'm shocked at the insinuation that it is in the frozen food section. And, in less there is an advanced grafting technique involved, or that Europe is genetically altering it's cows, I'm quite sure that you can't slice ham off of a live cow; or any cow for that matter.

[Cyclops]

Oops didn't see Wakazashi's much more thorough and practical video above.

Re the moral dimension: I think killing living things is a form of violence. Some forms of violence strengthen the actor (eg exercise, sports, constructive disputation, butchery for subsistence) but some erode the soul. Uneccessary cruelty is corrosive to the soul and most people cannot commit acts without lessening themselves.

This sounds very airy fairy and I have only come to these views after the age of 40 as my blood has cooled. I am ashamed to say that I saw Avatar again and realised the blue alien was saying the same thing.

... I'm quite sure that you can't slice ham off of a live cow; or any cow for that matter.

Sadly enough some meat prepared and labelled as ham is in fact lamb or beef. Check your labels carefully.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Louis, of course I couldn't. That one is too young and has too little meat on his bones; complete waste of time.

I think this is where we diverge; I don't think eating meat is immoral, rather, I think there is a moral dimension to eating meat. You're asking for another creature to die so you can have a tasty snack. How can that not be a moral choice? Likewise, we can all survive quite nicely without meat, and meat requires greater resources to produce. So as a meat-eater, I feel that I need to be okay with all dimenions of my choice.

You compare meat-eating with theft (twice), as though a morally wrong choice is comparable to a morally ambiguous choice like eating meat. I think this is where we part company.

If you think it might be wrong, you shouldn't do it...if that's what you mean by ambiguous. If you don't then I'm not clear on what you mean. I also used a choice that wasn't immoral (using a toilet).

The theft example works for how I am using it. If someone was able to steal without feeling that it was wrong, that wouldn't mean that it was right to steal. Just like the fact that someone is able to kill an animal without feeling that it is immoral doesn't mean it isn't. Those both work in reverse too. People in general often feel that something is immoral that isn't (like those gay yet anti-gay activist people). And people often feel that something is moral that isn't.

I think the basic reason behind "if I'm willing to eat it, I should be willing to kill it" is fine. But it works better hypothetically speaking. If I knew nothing about the animal from which the meat came, I couldn't judge whether it was wrong to eat it. You should be ok in principle with the animal being killed. But that doesn't lead to the conclusion that you should try and show something by killing it yourself. I mean, I could argue that it is wrong to buy clothes that come from a factor I wouldn't work in myself, but if I know about the factor my clothes came from it isn't necessary for me to go and work their myself.

This is all tangential to your OP though. Since you are killing the rabbits so that you can eat them. I think the vegetarian debate is an interesting microcosm though, I apologize if I took your thread off topic arguing about the "if you eat it, you should be willing to kill it" argument.

[drone]

Another option:

[Lemur]

If you think it might be wrong, you shouldn't do it...if that's what you mean by ambiguous.

This is a strange reading. Having sex might be wrong, depending on circumstance and motivations. Driving your car might be wrong, depending on circumstance and motivations. Going back to your very colorful poop analogy, defecating on the dining room table is probably wrong; in the toilet would be correct. So is taking a poop morally right or not? Stealing food for a starving child would be morally right; stealing under most circumstances is wrong. There are many, many activities that "might be wrong."

Killing an animal for food is, to my way of thinking, morally ambiguous. There are strong, sane, cogent arguments to be made for and against. So it "might" be wrong. Does that mean I should never eat meat?

@drone, wouldn't that make meat prep a little ... messy? On the other hand, instant shredded rabbit might be an interesting dish ...

Living things must die for me to live, debating the morality of which living things and whether I kill it personally or get a farmer/meatworks to kill it for me is splitting hairs. The economic and ecological points have merit however.

I don't understand how the economic and ecological are fundamentally separated from the moral. A good solution is a complete solution. Also, I don't understand equating, say, a stalk of wheat with a cute little bunny. Killing a blade of grass is surely different from killing a deer, yes?