Europe

[Furunculus]

I can entirely understand your valid qualms about political unions, but your thesis above is patently untrue. Real world examples of cultures (as diverse as any in Europe) that have been successfully fused include the United Kingdom. When peoples' economic and political aims align so that a union makes them stronger, richer and more peaceable, they tend to accede to the idea. This has happened from the first tribes onwards.

Your nation state concept is merely one of the more enduring plateau points.

how much blood are you willing to spill in order to achieve this convergence?

certainly, there are peoples who exist under nation states to which they are very lightly commited, where they concept of the nation state is exactly that, and abstract concept, however there are many other nations where this is not the case.

i would argue that britain is one, among others.

in which case the amount of blood to be spilt in britain is going to be relatively greater than that of belgium for example, a nation with little commitment from its constituent peoples

[Subotan]

China and India are good examples of "Civilisation States".

[Furunculus]

what is a civilisation state, and how is china a good example of anything to someone living in a western liberal democracy?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I can entirely understand your valid qualms about political unions, but your thesis above is patently untrue. Real world examples of cultures (as diverse as any in Europe) that have been successfully fused include the United Kingdom. When peoples' economic and political aims align so that a union makes them stronger, richer and more peaceable, they tend to accede to the idea. This has happened from the first tribes onwards.

Your nation state concept is merely one of the more enduring plateau points.

The forging of the UK was something done by a narrow and privilaged elite, whom it would never directly advantage. You and I both know that all four countries suffered cultural persecution, economic trouble and bloody insurrection because of the Union.

So my question would be why certain Europhiles are trying to ramn the same thing through our individual governments, in order to cause the same pain? I though we had progressed beyond that.

how much blood are you willing to spill in order to achieve this convergence?

certainly, there are peoples who exist under nation states to which they are very lightly commited, where they concept of the nation state is exactly that, and abstract concept, however there are many other nations where this is not the case.

i would argue that britain is one, among others.

in which case the amount of blood to be spilt in britain is going to be relatively greater than that of belgium for example, a nation with little commitment from its constituent peoples

To be fair, "Britishness" is really "Englishness, which is also adopted by anglicised peoples in the other two Kingdoms and the Principality. I don't think that, for example, the majority of the Welsh population feel the need to protect the "English" monarchy or what they see as the "English" parliament.

[gaelic cowboy]

China and India are good examples of "Civilisation States".

Hmm Civilisation States sounds like something from Samuel P Huntington's thesis on the Clash of Civilisation's not entirely sure what he is talking about either.

[Tellos Athenaios]

what is a civilisation state, and how is china a good example of anything to someone living in a western liberal democracy?

Well one can't deny that in China more than other countries there has been a persistent and concerted (political) effort to `push' a single elite (Han) culture, blotting out everything that isn't of the same culture.

[Tellos Athenaios]

The forging of the UK was something done by a narrow and privilaged elite, whom it would never directly advantage.

Should've been “who kept their position of power”. There's this illusion that the UK was some sort of rock solid monarchy and always has been. That illusion was forged then, that is the illusion of the UK, and it is a tradition invented to make the monarchy a bit more stable. In other words it benefited those in power; because the alternative -from their perspective- was their heads on public display severed from their body.

[Furunculus]

lest anyone be unaware of the current position of the american government on the EU, Biden's address to the European parliament:

"As you already know, ladies and gentlemen, not only am I pleased to be back here in Brussels for the second time as Vice President — as you probably know, some American politicians and American journalists refer to Washington, DC as the “capital of the free world.” But it seems to me that this great city, which boasts 1,000 years of history and which serves as the capital of Belgium, the home of the European Union, and the headquarters for NATO, this city has its own legitimate claim to that title.

As a lawmaker for more than 36 years in our Parliament, I feel particularly honored to address the European Parliament. President Obama and I were the first running mates in the last 50 years in America to make it to the White House from our legislative bodies. So we both come to our executive jobs with a deep appreciation for the work you do here in the bastion of European democracy.

Together with my former colleagues in the United States Congress, you and I represent more than 800 million people. Stop and think about that for a moment: two elected bodies that shape the laws for almost one-eighth of the planet’s population. That’s truly remarkable.

And now under the Lisbon Treaty, you’ve taken on more powers and a broader responsibility that comes with that increased influence. And we welcome it. We welcome that, because we, the United States, need strong allies and alliances to help us tackle the problems of the 21st century, many of which are the same but so many are different than the last century.

Let me state it as plainly as I can: The Obama-Biden administration has no doubt about the need for and strongly supports a vibrant European Union. We believe it’s absolutely essential to American prosperity and long-term security. So have no doubt about that.

As i said, America will do everything it can to push Britain into a federal EU for two reasons:
1. to make the EU effective
2. to make the EU anglophile

I'm remain an anglophile well in advance of any european sentiment, but on this one don't expect us to rollover just to keep the US feeling nice and secure!

[gaelic cowboy]

lest anyone be unaware of the current position of the american government on the EU, Biden's address to the European parliament:

As i said, America will do everything it can to push Britain into a federal EU for two reasons:
1. to make the EU effective
2. to make the EU anglophile

I'm remain an anglophile well in advance of any european sentiment, but on this one don't expect us to rollover just to keep the US feeling nice and secure!

Your position assumes that America will remain Anglophile in the future I would posit this is a dangerous place to hang your coat.

[Furunculus]

the level of intelligence and technology cooperation between the US, UK, Oz and Canada is pretty fundamental, i don't see that changing any time soon.

[gaelic cowboy]

I thinking more population wise USA will experience a more hispanic/mexican future hell some people are even trying to legislate aginast it in Arizona. Its not neccessarily a given the the USA will care a fig for Britain's strategic future as she orients even more to the south and east the west ie the old world will decline in importance.

So Britain does not want anything to do with Europe thats fine just dont assume as junior partner that your input is required for the future just cos it was useful in the past.

[Furunculus]

i'm not afraid of britain carving it own path in the world (albeit one in close cooperation with Europe), because as long as we retain the second most potent expeditionary capability (and the will to employ it) we will be a valuable partner, and we will always be a useful link between the two halves of NATO.

[Furunculus]

Hague just delivered a terrific speech on Foreign Policy, lets hope the words match the deeds:

http://www.politicshome.com/uk/artic...speech%29.html

.....................For although the world has become more multilateral as I have described, it has also become more bilateral. Relations between individual countries matter, starting with our unbreakable alliance with the United States which is our most important relationship and will remain so. Our shared history, value and interests, our tightly linked economies and strong habits of working together at all levels will ensure that the US will remain our biggest single level for achieving our international goals.

.....................Furthermore within groupings such as the EU, it is no longer sensible or indeed possible to focus our effort on the largest countries at the expense of smaller members. Of course France and Germany remain our crucial partners which is why the Prime Minister visited them in his first days in office. But for the UK to exert influence and generate creative new approaches to foreign policy challenges we need to look further and wider. The EU is at its best as a changing network where its members can make the most of what each country brings to the table. We are already seeking to work with many of the smaller member states in new and more flexible ways, recognising where individual countries or groupings within the EU add particular value. To take just one example, newer member states which were formerly under Soviet control have a wealth of experience of the transition to democracy after decades of dominion which they could share with EU candidate countries and others further afield. That should be built into the European Union’s approach to common foreign and security policy.

................I have begun discussing how we could form an initiative in this area with the Foreign Ministers of some of these countries. We should also see the value of Turkey’s future membership of the European Union in this light. Turkey is Europe’s biggest emerging economy and a good example of a country developing a new role and new links for itself, partly on top of and partly outside of existing structures and alliances and is highly active in the Western Balkans, the wider Middle East and Central Asia. We will make a particular diplomatic effort to work with Turkey, starting with a major visit by the Turkish Foreign Minister to Britain next week at my invitation.

................And fifth, we are determined as a Government to give due weight to Britain’s membership of the EU and other multilateral institutions. It is mystifying to us that the previous Government failed to give due weight to the exercise of British influence in the EU. They neglected to ensure that sufficient numbers of bright British officials entered EU institutions, and so we now face a generation gap developing in the British presence in parts of the EU where early decisions and early drafting take place. Since 2007, the number of British officials at Director level in the European Commission has fallen by a third and we have 205 fewer British officials in the Commission overall. The UK represents 12% of the EU population. Despite that, at entry-level policy grades in the Commission, the UK represents just 1.8% of the staff, well under the level of other major EU member states. So the idea that the last government was serious about advancing Britain’s influence in Europe turns out to be an unsustainable fiction. Consoling themselves with the illusion that agreeing to institutional changes much desired by others gave an appearance of British centrality in the EU, they neglected to launch any new initiative to work with smaller nations and presided over a decline in the holding of key European positions by British personnel. As a new Government we are determined to put this right.

looking good..........

[Subotan]

I am much more pleased by the first inkling's of the Coalition's Europe policy than I thought I would be. Isn't that strange? Although with point five, let us hope that a change in policy doesn't just result in monoglot, Eurosceptics being stuffed into posts rather than people who want and can do the job

[Furunculus]

I am much more pleased by the first inkling's of the Coalition's Europe policy than I thought I would be. Isn't that strange? Although with point five, let us hope that a change in policy doesn't just result in monoglot, Eurosceptics being stuffed into posts rather than people who want and can do the job

as hannan has often noted, it is often the europhiles who are monoglot, and it is both a cheap and innaccurate slur to label skeptics of EU federalism as monoglots.

[Subotan]

I was referring to the likes of Ashton with the monoglot reference that Eurosceptics, hence why I put Eurosceptics in as well.

[Furunculus]

a belated birthday wish for the ECR, and for the sceptics who doubted it would last a year.

but just so you're not disappointed here's a little controversy for you:
http://iaindale.blogspot.com/2010/07...ecr-group.html

No 10: "Proud" of the ECR Group
Iain Dale 12:24 PM

Yesterday I blogged about the rows in the European Conservatives & Reformists Group following a meeting with David Cameron in which it was agreed that in future the group would be led jointly by Michal Kaminski and Timothy Kirkhope. I've just had an on the record comment from a Number Ten spokesman on the issue.

"We remain completely committed to the success of the ECR group. We are proud to have set it up and proud of its progress so far. As far as the leadership is concerned, clearly it must command the support of the group's members."

I asked if the whole issue was indeed raised at the meeting at Number 10 between Cameron, Kaminski and Kirkhope. The spokesman replied: "Yes, it came up and discussions are underway in Brussels. Clearly it is important that the leadership commands the support of the group and the parties concerned."

I asked about the Czechs and whether it was important for them to support the changes and the answer was: "Yes, of course".

On the face of it, this is rather bland and what you might expect Number Ten to say. But the statement goes out of its way to make clear that they are committed to the ECR group and its future.

Sources tell me that there have been murmerings about Kaminski's leadership of the group for some time and that there have been concerns about his workrate, and this is what lay behind Kirkhope's move.

In some ways I am surprised at how few ructions this has caused. Several MEPs I have talked to believe that the initial kerfuffle will be as bad as it gets and that it is already dying down.

[Beskar]

[removed]

[Furunculus]

is that spam, or is there some cryptic message in there?

[Vladimir]

is that spam, or is there some cryptic message in there?

"But the statement goes out of its way to make clear that they are committed to the ECR group and its future."

Maybe?

[Louis VI the Fat]

a belated birthday wish for the ECR, and for the sceptics who doubted it would last a year.

Happy Birthday ECR!


And my continued good luck to the UK Conservatives with Kaminsky! Been following what Cegorach lately has been writing about Poland and Law and Justice?

Poland now has got a conservative, centre-right, neoliberal PM and President - to which the UK Conservatives now no longer have ties. They are, instead, stuck with their boy Kaminsky - a 'has-been' who belongs to the populist Polish Fruitcake Party which just got it on the chin from educated, western, cosmopolitan, hard-working Poles who are not interested in his rubbish anymore.

[Vladimir]

Kaminsky? Do you mean this guy?



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[Furunculus]

Happy Birthday ECR!


And my continued good luck to the UK Conservatives with Kaminsky! Been following what Cegorach lately has been writing about Poland and Law and Justice?

Poland now has got a conservative, centre-right, neoliberal PM and President - to which the UK Conservatives now no longer have ties. They are, instead, stuck with their boy Kaminsky - a 'has-been' who belongs to the populist Polish Fruitcake Party which just got it on the chin from educated, western, cosmopolitan, hard-working Poles who are not interested in his rubbish anymore.

a has-been from a party that polled 48% of the presidential vote?

[cegorach]

a has-been from a party that polled 48% of the presidential vote?

Yes which of course means that 48% of voters support the party not the candidate... or not.

But another test is just ahead - in October there will be municipal elections.

Uusally the crushing majority of votes are grasped by local associations and citizen organisations which leaves parties with one way to test their popularity and one reason to declare victory.

Namely - in how many CITIES is it able to win.


Good luck with that!

[Furunculus]

don't get your knickers in a twist Cegorach, I am quite happy with the presidential result and prefer their politics in the main.

my support for law and justice is restricted to their MEP's political affiliation in brussels, because the EU to me is foriegn policy so i prefer the Conservatives european party to be stuffed with like-minded anti-federalists.

that is all.

[cegorach]

Good to hear that.


BTW In a weird twist it is now Poland where politicians talk about 'controversial' allies in the European Parliament.

'Controversial allies' but this time of the Law and Justice i.e. the Tories who are criticised for their attitude towards the CAP, British rebate and other ideas and projects.


As much as I was against the stupid witchhunt against Mr. Kamiński* in this case it is usually valid criticism addressing a number of differences in priorities between the UK and Poland, which I might add are growing.

It looks like Britain will gradually become a sort of European 'bad boy' to the public opinion.




* To me he is and was a fat, arrogant, lying bastard, but that would be all.
I don't need to invent accusations the way it was in the UK quoting sentences out of context and against facts or background.

[Furunculus]

It looks like Britain will gradually become a sort of European 'bad boy' to the public opinion.

hehe, i can live with that.

[Meneldil]

how much blood are you willing to spill in order to achieve this convergence?

certainly, there are peoples who exist under nation states to which they are very lightly commited, where they concept of the nation state is exactly that, and abstract concept, however there are many other nations where this is not the case.

i would argue that britain is one, among others.

in which case the amount of blood to be spilt in britain is going to be relatively greater than that of belgium for example, a nation with little commitment from its constituent peoples

The concept of nation state is by definition an abstract concept. Have you ever seen a nation state? Have you ever met or touched one? Have you ever talked to one? No, simply because they don't actually exist. It's something people put into your head to make you feel better. That ain't necessarily bad, but the fact that for some reason you seem to vastly favor a nation state (Britain, God save the queen and what not) over another (an hypothetical European nation state) is funny. It's exactly the same thing as the Scots who resisted the annexation of their country by England. Same old stuff.

Which by no mean means I'm in favor of an European (con)federation. I just find it funny that you can't seem to grasp that your little nation doesn't actually exist.

[Louis VI the Fat]

The concept of nation state is by definition an abstract concept. Have you ever seen a nation state? Have you ever met or touched one? Have you ever talked to one? No, simply because they don't actually exist. It's something people put into your head to make you feel better. That ain't necessarily bad, but the fact that for some reason you seem to vastly favor a nation state (Britain, God save the queen and what not) over another (an hypothetical European nation state) is funny. It's exactly the same thing as the Scots who resisted the annexation of their country by England. Same old stuff.

Which by no mean means I'm in favor of an European (con)federation. I just find it funny that you can't seem to grasp that your little nation doesn't actually exist.

The nation state does exist, but not as a tangible object.

An abstract concept does not need to have perfect boundaries, everything within being part of it, everything outside, not. 'Within' consisting here of historical, social, physical, territorial, demographic delineations.


I, for one, can with great accuracy tell what, and who, belongs to the British nation state and what to the Thai nation state.
A nationstate is better thought of as a few 'centres of gravity', that pull people, places and history together. Even if these centres are prone to shift, even if are no clear boundaries, even if other centres exist too which exert their influence over the same objects, one can still identify and construct (two verbs with near identical meanings in this instance) nation states.



There is an irony in that if a cross-channel Norman - England state construct would've survived, inhabitants of Kent and Caen would now desperately insist that they have absolutely nothing in common with Scots or Burgundians respectively, and that it is simply preposterous to think they should ever form a nation with 'them'.
Or, closer in time, if Ireland would still be part of the UK, national narratives would've evolved completely different than they have been constructed since 1922

[Furunculus]

The concept of nation state is by definition an abstract concept. Have you ever seen a nation state? Have you ever met or touched one? Have you ever talked to one? No, simply because they don't actually exist. It's something people put into your head to make you feel better. That ain't necessarily bad, but the fact that for some reason you seem to vastly favor a nation state (Britain, God save the queen and what not) over another (an hypothetical European nation state) is funny. It's exactly the same thing as the Scots who resisted the annexation of their country by England. Same old stuff.

Which by no mean means I'm in favor of an European (con)federation. I just find it funny that you can't seem to grasp that your little nation doesn't actually exist.

while what you say sounds lovely in an abstract political science kind of way, i laugh at this wonderful abstraction as an irrelevance at a time with europeoan integration is violently rejected by germans having to pay greeks.

Louis descibes it quite well.