Skin-whitening creams: worthy of anger?

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Again, I do not see the bridge you're trying to build between a simple act of putting on skin creme and an addictive, compulsive psychological disorder which results in failing health and death in extreme cases.

mmm, but that isn't what we are talking about.

I agree, the "moral" outrage over it is more divisive to our society than just accepting people, even if they want to paint up their skin, or shove a bone or a piece of jewelry through their nose. Whatever makes them happy.

We are talking generally about disapproval of peoples appearance-modification habits. I'm disagreeing with the "just accepting...whatever".

There's a long line of relevant things ranging from hair cuts (perfectly fine) to anorexia and beyond (obviously not). Since you said "just accepting...whatever" I jumped to the end of the line to establish the principle ("There is clearly a degree at which we agree that it is bad."). It is obviously not my assumption that you approve of anorexia but you disapprove for certain reasons. I think if we looked at the reasons, the would lead us to a different conclusion than "just accepting...whatever". There is no need to avoid (or pretend to avoid) being at all discerning so that we can say we are accepting and tolerant.

Don't you think one of the causes of anorexia is that people just accept women putting an excessive amount of time into various preening activities?

Other than murder, or violent actions, I cannot think of too many instances where motive even matters to people

I think this is very false. Are you saying you don't care if I'm arguing with you because I despise you or arguing with you because I enjoy arguing? It's the latter by the way

[Askthepizzaguy]

mmm, but that isn't what we are talking about.

Then we have been miscommunicating; I thought that's what you were arguing about....

We are talking generally about disapproval of peoples appearance-modification habits. I'm disagreeing with the "just accepting...whatever".

You may have interpreted "whatever" to mean "I accept everything."

Should I have added to the end "stuff that doesn't usually kill you"? I thought that was implied...

There's a long line of relevant things ranging from hair cuts (perfectly fine) to anorexia and beyond (obviously not). Since you said "just accepting...whatever" I jumped to the end of the line to establish the principle ("There is clearly a degree at which we agree that it is bad."). It is obviously not my assumption that you approve of anorexia but you disapprove for certain reasons. I think if we looked at the reasons, the would lead us to a different conclusion than "just accepting...whatever". There is no need to avoid (or pretend to avoid) being at all discerning so that we can say we are accepting and tolerant.

Being tolerant of others' personal habits is a general principle, and a good one. Being tolerant of obviously self-destructive or other-destructive behavior is not a good principle.

To me, the differences are so obvious that I didn't consider anyone would interpret my statement as being accepting of destructive behavior. That's not what I mean, and I would never.

Don't you think one of the causes of anorexia is that people just accept women putting an excessive amount of time into various preening activities?

I don't think so. I'm not a doctor, I'm an ignorant bystander, but my observations suggest the root cause is a lack of self-worth and a serious distortion of self-image.

No one who is anorexic sees their body as wasting away, unhealthy, and destroying itself. They see normal healthy weight as morbid obesity and that all weight that can be lost, should be lost. That means they are seeing a false image of themselves, and the delusion is compounded by their self-loathing and lack of self-worth. They don't have that safety net of caring if their lifestyle kills them, because they don't care about themselves.... they care about their image.... a distorted image that only they can see.

That detachment from reality coupled with apathy towards the self is the root cause of the destruction. You cannot have them stand in front of a mirror and have them see their skin and bones as anything but positive, and what little weight they have left, keeping them alive, as anything but negative.

Whereas, lipstick, skin creme, fingernail polish, or removing a mole.... these are generally behaviors which do not represent a detachment from reality and apathy toward one's own health. They might represent a normal-to-excessive range of superficiality, but that isn't dangerous in and of itself.

Even someone who paints themselves up like a clown isn't necessarily killing themselves. Maybe someone could say "hey, your face looks pretty without all of that stuff... you're naturally beautiful." and it might help their self-confidence. When it does not, that is when a person has either different tastes, or seriously cannot see themselves as beautiful except with the makeup. That might be another kind of disorder, and maybe they should see a counselor, but at least they shouldn't wind up dead tomorrow from looking like a clown.

I think this is very false. Are you saying you don't care if I'm arguing with you because I despise you or arguing with you because I enjoy arguing? It's the latter by the way

It matters little to the argument itself what your motives are. In fact, they are so detached from each other, you can't always tell what someone's motivation is for doing something, because they can easily do the same thing with a different motive. Of course I would (appropriately) care if you hated my guts, but ultimately that doesn't affect my life too much, and because it hasn't come up, and usually doesn't come up, that should indicate that why someone is arguing their point actually does matter very little to the argument itself.

If your points were flawlessly argued and you offered no indication that you thought I was a dirtbag, I'd never know.... and therefore, it would ultimately not matter.

See?

Suppose some billionaire gave a million dollars to St. Jude's children's hospital. And he did it anonymously. His reason? He believes that if he does it, Satan himself will possess his body and turn him into the emperor of the world. (He's clearly an insane person.) But do the people who got the money care why he gave it? No.

Motive for behavior might become apparent and it might make people trust you less, but really, unless you are inflicting violence upon people, the only time motive comes up is if they need to know if it was an accident or intentional or premeditated and cold-blooded. Otherwise, people don't seem to care why you do the things you do.... just if you do them or not.

Take your job. Your boss doesn't care why you're working there, as long as you're working hard and not breaking the law or being a liability. Maybe your motive is that you just need the cash. Maybe your motive is career advancement. Maybe you believe if you work there, a leprechaun will grant you magic powers. Whatever your reason, the boss just wants you to get the job done.



...I feel we got derailed somewhere. This was about skin cremes at one point.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

I don't think so. I'm not a doctor, I'm an ignorant bystander, but my observations suggest the root cause is a lack of self-worth and a serious distortion of self-image.

One of the causes iirc is a desire to appear unattractive to avoid sexual abuse (also a cause of obesity in some cases). I don't know much about the causes so it's probably best to skip a detailed discussion.

Whereas, lipstick, skin creme, fingernail polish, or removing a mole.... these are generally behaviors which do not represent a detachment from reality and apathy toward one's own health. They might represent a normal-to-excessive range of superficiality, but that isn't dangerous in and of itself.

There's simply any number of things that people are drawn to because they have low self esteem (which is a detachment from reality). By your own standard you should disapprove of that. Flip through one of those mens fitness magazines or a cosmo.

That might be another kind of disorder, and maybe they should see a counselor, but at least they shouldn't wind up dead tomorrow from looking like a clown.

You are underrating psychological health though. Suicide is one way to end up dead. And even when we aren't talking extremes low self worth for bad reasons isn't a good thing.

I cannot think of too many instances where motive even matters to people

Of course I would (appropriately) care if you hated my guts

and therefore, it would ultimately not matter.

We were talking about mattering to people, which you agree motives do, but now you are talking about "ultimately mattering". But how do actions "ultimately matter"? Only because people care. So you have peoples caring as irrelevant if it has to do with motive, but relevant if it has to do with action, arbitrarily.

...I feel we got derailed somewhere. This was about skin cremes at one point.

Well, but what's the core issue? We seemed pretty well agreed that it isn't racism. But what is it? So we move on to what we give approval to. I don't have any objection to people rubbing cream on to make themselves look better. Being motivated solely by the caste system or what have you is more worrisome. Although I don't know enough about the subject to say whether it is a fault in society (for having absurd ideas about beauty--which is quite possible) or individual people for buying into it (which is something people do).

Perhaps you only wanted to discuss whether it is racism though

We could have taken the thread on the moralizing tack, and talked about other situations where people call racism etc inappropriately.

[rory_20_uk]

No, it's a pile of crap. No one is forced to buy or wear it. People choose to. It's popular in Africa / India and China. In all three areas (as well as Japan), whiteness has been preferred often way before "whiteys" turned up.

People from Essex / Cheshire pain themselves orange and this is not racist.

Rich, American women have been cutting themselves up, breaking their noses and a myriad of other things and this is almost viewed as "normal". Most people have something they'd like to improve. This is no better or worse than others - as long as they avoid the brands that contain Mercury.

I have wondered if there is any skin tone that everyone in the world is aiming for or whether it is truly dependant on the culture and varies tremendously.

[Fragony]

Ya a light skin is prefered in almost every culture, rediculous to assume they want to be whites they just want a light skin. Ironically the people who get worked up over this are the real white supremacists they just don't understand that. Soooo patronising I would be seriously offended by such a suggestion if I was Indian/Asian/whatever.

[Hosakawa Tito]

And then there's the orange people...

[gaelic cowboy]

^^
What eejits are they Hosakawa

[Megas Methuselah]

Ya a light skin is prefered in almost every culture, rediculous to assume they want to be whites they just want a light skin.

Haha, not in my culture. This is why I go out to get a tan. Too damn pale. It's the Metis blood.

[The Spartan (Returns)]

No, it's a pile of crap. No one is forced to buy or wear it. People choose to. It's popular in Africa / India and China. In all three areas (as well as Japan), whiteness has been preferred often way before "whiteys" turned up.

It's popular in all of Asia as well as South America.

[Moros]

It's silly, but that's about it. I guess that only means it fits in perfectly will all the other stuff sold in the beauty and fashion market.

[Riedquat]

It's popular in all of Asia as well as South America.

South America?? Sorry but no, I would say exactly the opposite; at least in Brazil, Uruguay, Paraguay, Chile and Argentina tanned is the way to go.