First of all, I want to make it clear that I don't want to disrespect the work of the people responsible for this mod. It's very well done and a great mod. Also, I don't think I was giving the impression that I thought I knew more about ancient History than them, but I'll emphasize it, just so there is no confusion. I do think that the points I raised are valid, though, and I wanted to share them with the intention of providing constructive criticism.

If the Lusitanians were culturally, politically and geographically from the Iberian peninsula - how can they be considered not Iberian?

I mean, some academics might have categories or "cultural goups" that try to break the peninsula up, but surely they are just to differentiate between different Iberian cultures.

Just like the different peoples who lived in the British Isles must all be described as Britons and those in the Italian peninsula as Italians.
Yes, I see your point, but the fact is that the Iberians were a distinctive set of peoples from the eastern peninsula of Iberia. I know it can be confusing (I already mentioned it being a common error), and that you may refer to all the inhabitants of Iberia as "Iberians" just on geographical grounds, but that's not correct, because the proper meaning of that term is related to those peoples I was talking about (Contestani, Edetani, etc). If you are interested in the subject, I highly recommend you to look in ancient art books (or just google them) about Iberian sculptures, such as the ones I mentioned, the Lady of Elx and the Warrior of Moixent (there are more, though, like the Lady of Eivissa/Ibiza). When people talk about Iberian art they are refering to the art of that civilization, not from the peninsula.

And yeah, academic differentiate between different Iberian cultures, but the thing is that the Lusitani are not included in them. If you look at the map I linked, the Iberian "cultures" are the ones on the eastern coast of the peninsula. The rest of them are peoples/tribes from Iberia, not Iberian peoples/tribes, in the ethnical sense that Iberian was used. However, if you use the term "Iberian" with only a geographical meaning, then yes, they were... but I think it kind of defeats the point of trying to represent cultural and ethnical diversity and then using general/broad terms that mix different peoples together, doesn't it?


Welcome to the .org!

I'm neither a team member nor an expert, so these are just some thoughts from me.

The Lusitanians probably are "lumped together" with the Iberians, because historically the terms were not used with ethnicity in mind. At least Strabo and Diodorus Siculus count the Lusitanii as Iberians. Similar case are the "Germans", which originally has been a geographical term, that only later has been filled with different meanings.

I had the belief "Spain" was just an anglification of the latin "Hispania", but to be honest, I find it a bit far fetched to take that difference as a tool in an argument about national legitimacy. This is just to express my surprise, not to dismiss anything.

Now, room for those who really have something to say

Thank you for the welcome! :)


Well, the term Iberian has got, as I said, an ethnical meaning, besides the mere geographical one (in the geographical one, both Iberians and Celtiberians can be included in it, in the ethnical sense, they cannot), the main criterium to define the Iberian peoples being their language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iberian_language).

I know this all gets a little bit confusing, but to illustrate my point, in Valencian (the native language of part of the east coast of present day Spain) and in Spanish, we have different terms for both the ethnical and geographical meanings of the English word "Iberian". So, "Iber/Ibero" (Valencian/Spanish) are used to designate the set of peoples, while "Ibèric/Ibérico" are used to designate something/someone from the peninsula (maybe you have eaten "Jamón Ibérico" or Iberian Ham!). Maybe I should have mentioned this from the start :D

The whole thing with the term "Spain" vs. "Hispania" is a tricky one. To sum it up in the most unbiased way I can: Hispania identified the peninsula to the Romans, but as "Spain" has been used as a "national name" for the nation/state/whatever that currently occupies most of that peninsula, Spanish nationalists want to trace it as back as possible to show that "Spanish national identity" has been going on for many centuries, while other nationalists in Spain (Basque, Valencian, Catalan, etc...) are skeptical about it and point out the names of their different nations as being older than the use of the term "Spain" in a national sense. /offtopic


The only references to "Spain" that I've ever noticed were references to "modern-day Spain" as a geographical entity to better explain the position of ancient peoples and cities to the modern individual. When they do so, I'm sure the team are not implying Spain and the Iberian peninsula are the same thing, but rather just explaining to us that the Cantabrians, for example, are from north-eastern Spain, not north-eastern Portugal. It's just a mechanism of explanation for someone who is used to a modern map. Are there references to Spain in an ancient context as well?
Hey, the references you're talking about are fine (and very useful to explain where each tribe was located to readers who may only have vague knowledge about Spanish geography). I wrote that in reference to the "Features" page, in it's "Factions" section, where it says: "Spain remade into the Lusotannan or Lusitanians representing perhaps the strongest and most warlike Iberian tribe."
When I saw it, I thought it was a strange wording, since Spain didn't exist back then, and the Lusitanians weren't Iberians (although they were a tribe from Iberia, which brings me back to the whole idea I was talking about above).

But I checked the Lusitanian description and history and all references are like "which occupies what is modern north-eastern Spain" as you said, so everything's fine, no problem with that because references to modern geography are useful, like you said (although Cantabria is in the North of Spain, not NE).

One little detail I didn't want to overlook: it is mentioned that the "falcata" was the typical sword in present day Andalusia; this is incomplete. The falcata was also used in present day Valencia, as shown in the sculpture of the Warrior of Moixent (Guerrer de Moixent, as my nick goes): http://www.valencians.es/myalbum-photo.lid-9897.htm


Cheers.