The Iberians

[Guerrer de Moixent]

Hello, I'm just a newbie to Rome Total War and Europa Barbarorum, but I wanted to comment a few points on the way Iberians have been depicted in the mod.

First off, I don't want to come off as a pretentious critic or anything, so please, take this as constructive criticism. As I've seen the impressive historic research you guys have done with the mod, I just wanted to complement it a little bit on the whole Iberian side. And also, if I'm wrong, feel free to correct me, there's nothing as good as learning new stuff about subjects you like (and I like ancient History).

OK, so why are the Lusitanians depicted as part of the Iberians? The Iberians were a set of peoples that inhabited the eastern part of the Iberian peninsula, but the Lusitanians were not Iberians. Sometimes the confusion stems from the fact that the peninsula was known as Iberia, but not everyone in Iberia was an Iberian. I know that sometimes the term "Iberian" is used to refer to any tribe coming from the peninsula, but I think that it deprives the mod from some of it historical accuracy, as the other tribes had their own names, and using the term "Iberian" to refer to all of them kind of lumps them all together and loses some of the cultural diversity. Celtiberians are also a different tribe, Celts that migrated to Iberia and developed their own cultural traits, but were not Iberians.


Also, every time I see the term "Spain" used for the Iberian Peninsula, I cringe. Both Hispania or Iberia are historically accurate, but "Spain" wouldn't come off as the name of a political reality until the XVIII century (with the Decretos de Nueva Planta, which would try to extinguish the political identity of the territories from the Crown of Aragon and assimilate them to the Kingdom of Castille, which would be the base for the new Spanish Kingdom). There are some people that argue that it may have been used earlier, but definitely, not before the XVI Century (it is a controversial topic in Spain, as Spanish nationalism tries to trace it's identity as early as possible to reinforce it's "legitimacy", while other nationalisms in Spain, such as the Catalan or Valencian, are skeptical about that).


I must praise the fact that you've included a lot of historical Iberian traits, such as the falcata, or the foners (Balearic slingers). There are some others that can be interesting to you: the Edetani, the people to which Saguntum (famous for their resistance against Hannibal) belonged, or the Contestani (which have left us some of the most valuable and beautiful Iberian scultures we have managed to conserve: the Warrior of Moixent and the Lady of Elx).

Here is an ethnographic of Iberia, 200 BC:

http://www.arkeotavira.com/Mapas/Iberia/Populi.htm


Cheers!

[Lysimachos]

Welcome to the .org!

I'm neither a team member nor an expert, so these are just some thoughts from me.

The Lusitanians probably are "lumped together" with the Iberians, because historically the terms were not used with ethnicity in mind. At least Strabo and Diodorus Siculus count the Lusitanii as Iberians. Similar case are the "Germans", which originally has been a geographical term, that only later has been filled with different meanings.

I had the belief "Spain" was just an anglification of the latin "Hispania", but to be honest, I find it a bit far fetched to take that difference as a tool in an argument about national legitimacy. This is just to express my surprise, not to dismiss anything.

Now, room for those who really have something to say

[anubis88]

Well those people were Iberians, because they've lived in the Iberian Peninsula. And noone uses the term spain because he want's it to be historically accurate. If someone says Spain, everyone knows he means the Iberian Peninsula, along with modern day Portugal.

I don't think there's any description ingame where the terms like Spain were used. So i really don't see what's the problem.

[Torres84]

You have to understand that the history depicted in EB is a kind of roleplay, all knowledge was base upon roman point of view and is a lot easier for modders to put certain types of units under certain country banners. I'm spanish myself and I have found myself some kind of "errors" about this matter and I agree with you in a 90%.

But we have to understand that the mod team has no one in with a degree on ancient history or classical era culture, all I can say that besides some mispellings ingame and other quite weird facts about the Iberian culture or innacurate ancillaries or traits, the mod is quite wonderful in the terms of history and playability.

And I am from the Canary Islands ¬¬ and my province is not present ingame ¬¬ ( but it has nothing of interest by that time to any of the civs ingame so I'm not that unhappy :P )

[Cambyses]

If the Lusitanians were culturally, politically and geographically from the Iberian peninsula - how can they be considered not Iberian?

I mean, some academics might have categories or "cultural goups" that try to break the peninsula up, but surely they are just to differentiate between different Iberian cultures.

Just like the different peoples who lived in the British Isles must all be described as Britons and those in the Italian peninsula as Italians.

[WinsingtonIII]

all knowledge was base upon roman point of view

I don't think that's completely true. Yes, the vast majority of the information we can find on this period is from the Roman or Hellenic point of view, but I believe the EB team does have members with archaeological training who have access to the archaeological resources/information on the archaeological resources of other peoples in the period (which, obviously, are not from the Roman point of view).

But we have to understand that the mod team has no one in with a degree on ancient history or classical era culture

Also not true. The EB team does have individuals with advanced degrees in fields pertaining to this historical period, it's part of the reason there is so much depth to the mod.

Also, every time I see the term "Spain" used for the Iberian Peninsula, I cringe.

The only references to "Spain" that I've ever noticed were references to "modern-day Spain" as a geographical entity to better explain the position of ancient peoples and cities to the modern individual. When they do so, I'm sure the team are not implying Spain and the Iberian peninsula are the same thing, but rather just explaining to us that the Cantabrians, for example, are from north-eastern Spain, not north-eastern Portugal. It's just a mechanism of explanation for someone who is used to a modern map. Are there references to Spain in an ancient context as well?

[oudysseos]

all knowledge was base upon roman point of view

Not in the least true.

But we have to understand that the mod team has no one in with a degree on ancient history or classical era culture

Not true.

EDIT: Winsington beat me to it.

'Iberian' is used as a regional or geographic adjective in some cases: calling the Lusotannan 'Iberians' means only that they lived in Iberia. We also occasionally use modern toponyms like 'Spain', or 'Britain', in our descriptive writing as a device to anchor the world of EB to more familiar surroundings.

[Moros]

Indeed Samnites and Romans are quite different, culturarally,... they're Italians. Same for the people living in iberia. So terminology wise I can see no problem either.

Calling the Celtiberians a tribe on the other hand is rather incorrect...

[athanaric]

all knowledge was base upon roman point of view

There's a lot of Hellenistic, Iranian, and Celtic source material as well, to begin with. Most of which would be known to and used by EB members.

But we have to understand that the mod team has no one in with a degree on ancient history or classical era culture,

rofl?
Actually, it's quite the opposite. Compared to other games or mods, the EB team sports an indecent amount of scientists.

[Moros]

But we have to understand that the mod team has no one in with a degree on ancient history or classical era culture, all I can say that besides some mispellings ingame and other quite weird facts about the Iberian culture or innacurate ancillaries or traits, the mod is quite wonderful in the terms of history and playability.

You seem to know more about us than we ourselves.

[Mediolanicus]

But we have to understand that the mod team has no one in with a degree on ancient history or classical era culture, all I can say that besides some mispellings ingame and other quite weird facts about the Iberian culture or innacurate ancillaries or traits, the mod is quite wonderful in the terms of history and playability.

So now that we've cleared that there are in fact specialists on the team, they might be interested which weird facts or inaccuracies you have found. That way they can double check them and corrected them, or correct you so you can learn something more about your ancestors; beneficial to both, I'd say.

As for the spelling mistakes, agreed. But the text files of EB are a whole book long, written by many people, most of them with English as their second or third language. Content and readability are more important here. Though signalling spelling and grammatical mistakes so that they can be corrected will be appreciated, I'm sure.

[MisterFred]

Just maybe, somewhere, one student is getting a tiny kickback for the hits his grades have taken while he or she slacked off playing EB.

[Guerrer de Moixent]

First of all, I want to make it clear that I don't want to disrespect the work of the people responsible for this mod. It's very well done and a great mod. Also, I don't think I was giving the impression that I thought I knew more about ancient History than them, but I'll emphasize it, just so there is no confusion. I do think that the points I raised are valid, though, and I wanted to share them with the intention of providing constructive criticism.

If the Lusitanians were culturally, politically and geographically from the Iberian peninsula - how can they be considered not Iberian?

I mean, some academics might have categories or "cultural goups" that try to break the peninsula up, but surely they are just to differentiate between different Iberian cultures.

Just like the different peoples who lived in the British Isles must all be described as Britons and those in the Italian peninsula as Italians.

Yes, I see your point, but the fact is that the Iberians were a distinctive set of peoples from the eastern peninsula of Iberia. I know it can be confusing (I already mentioned it being a common error), and that you may refer to all the inhabitants of Iberia as "Iberians" just on geographical grounds, but that's not correct, because the proper meaning of that term is related to those peoples I was talking about (Contestani, Edetani, etc). If you are interested in the subject, I highly recommend you to look in ancient art books (or just google them) about Iberian sculptures, such as the ones I mentioned, the Lady of Elx and the Warrior of Moixent (there are more, though, like the Lady of Eivissa/Ibiza). When people talk about Iberian art they are refering to the art of that civilization, not from the peninsula.

And yeah, academic differentiate between different Iberian cultures, but the thing is that the Lusitani are not included in them. If you look at the map I linked, the Iberian "cultures" are the ones on the eastern coast of the peninsula. The rest of them are peoples/tribes from Iberia, not Iberian peoples/tribes, in the ethnical sense that Iberian was used. However, if you use the term "Iberian" with only a geographical meaning, then yes, they were... but I think it kind of defeats the point of trying to represent cultural and ethnical diversity and then using general/broad terms that mix different peoples together, doesn't it?

Welcome to the .org!

I'm neither a team member nor an expert, so these are just some thoughts from me.

The Lusitanians probably are "lumped together" with the Iberians, because historically the terms were not used with ethnicity in mind. At least Strabo and Diodorus Siculus count the Lusitanii as Iberians. Similar case are the "Germans", which originally has been a geographical term, that only later has been filled with different meanings.

I had the belief "Spain" was just an anglification of the latin "Hispania", but to be honest, I find it a bit far fetched to take that difference as a tool in an argument about national legitimacy. This is just to express my surprise, not to dismiss anything.

Now, room for those who really have something to say

Thank you for the welcome! :)


Well, the term Iberian has got, as I said, an ethnical meaning, besides the mere geographical one (in the geographical one, both Iberians and Celtiberians can be included in it, in the ethnical sense, they cannot), the main criterium to define the Iberian peoples being their language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iberian_language).

I know this all gets a little bit confusing, but to illustrate my point, in Valencian (the native language of part of the east coast of present day Spain) and in Spanish, we have different terms for both the ethnical and geographical meanings of the English word "Iberian". So, "Iber/Ibero" (Valencian/Spanish) are used to designate the set of peoples, while "Ibèric/Ibérico" are used to designate something/someone from the peninsula (maybe you have eaten "Jamón Ibérico" or Iberian Ham!). Maybe I should have mentioned this from the start :D

The whole thing with the term "Spain" vs. "Hispania" is a tricky one. To sum it up in the most unbiased way I can: Hispania identified the peninsula to the Romans, but as "Spain" has been used as a "national name" for the nation/state/whatever that currently occupies most of that peninsula, Spanish nationalists want to trace it as back as possible to show that "Spanish national identity" has been going on for many centuries, while other nationalists in Spain (Basque, Valencian, Catalan, etc...) are skeptical about it and point out the names of their different nations as being older than the use of the term "Spain" in a national sense. /offtopic

The only references to "Spain" that I've ever noticed were references to "modern-day Spain" as a geographical entity to better explain the position of ancient peoples and cities to the modern individual. When they do so, I'm sure the team are not implying Spain and the Iberian peninsula are the same thing, but rather just explaining to us that the Cantabrians, for example, are from north-eastern Spain, not north-eastern Portugal. It's just a mechanism of explanation for someone who is used to a modern map. Are there references to Spain in an ancient context as well?

Hey, the references you're talking about are fine (and very useful to explain where each tribe was located to readers who may only have vague knowledge about Spanish geography). I wrote that in reference to the "Features" page, in it's "Factions" section, where it says: "Spain remade into the Lusotannan or Lusitanians representing perhaps the strongest and most warlike Iberian tribe."
When I saw it, I thought it was a strange wording, since Spain didn't exist back then, and the Lusitanians weren't Iberians (although they were a tribe from Iberia, which brings me back to the whole idea I was talking about above).

But I checked the Lusitanian description and history and all references are like "which occupies what is modern north-eastern Spain" as you said, so everything's fine, no problem with that because references to modern geography are useful, like you said (although Cantabria is in the North of Spain, not NE).

One little detail I didn't want to overlook: it is mentioned that the "falcata" was the typical sword in present day Andalusia; this is incomplete. The falcata was also used in present day Valencia, as shown in the sculpture of the Warrior of Moixent (Guerrer de Moixent, as my nick goes): http://www.valencians.es/myalbum-photo.lid-9897.htm


Cheers.

[Torres84]

[QUOTE=WinsingtonIII;2524620]I don't think that's completely true. Yes, the vast majority of the information we can find on this period is from the Roman or Hellenic point of view, but I believe the EB team does have members with archaeological training who have access to the archaeological resources/information on the archaeological resources of other peoples in the period (which, obviously, are not from the Roman point of view).

Agreed, I meant that most of the history and knowledge of the time was gathered by Romans. Since the cultures that previously occupied "Spain" did not had the same hunger of culture and history.

Also not true. The EB team does have individuals with advanced degrees in fields pertaining to this historical period, it's part of the reason there is so much depth to the mod.

Well :-/ Mea culpa est, me paenitet. I didn't expect you had researchers behind the shield :P, but that's positively surprising. All I can say is that maybe I had in mind old university proffessors playing EB and sending you emails correcting your work ¬¬ like they did to me LOL. All I was triying to do was to praise the job done by the team so the OP did not had reasons to "complain" :P

There's no effort in being polite like Winsington and try to be well mannered explaining in which ways I was wrong, this is not 4chan. No room 4 me to stand with your irony Moros, got it?

Well, that's all, never triying to disrespect the wonderful job the EB team has done = )

[Moros]

My most humble and honest apologies.

[Mediolanicus]

Guerrer de Moixent,

Welcome - sorry I forgot to say that in my first post here.
Do not fear the animosity in some of the posts here, it was in no way directed at you. It were Torres' ludicrous statements that caused that.

Now, first the "Spain" issue. What you read there on the faction page means that the Vanilla RTW faction "The Spaniards" was replaced in the mod with the Lusotannan, a tribe from the Iberian peninsular.
Anywhere else you may see "Spain" it simply refers to the geographical area covered by the modern nation state Spain (although some Basks and Catalans stand on their hind legs each time they here that, but that's another matter).

For the falcata issue: "typical sword in present day Andalusia" does not in anyway mean that it was not used outside Andalusia, it means that it was typical for Andalusia. So it would only be incomplete when a) it was equally or more typical in the modern day Valencia area, b) you want to give a list of everywhere the sword has been found to be used.

The Iberian issue: Personally I think you agitation is caused by a language problem. It seems that your language has distinct words to show whether something is Iberian (sensu stritcto) of from the Iberian peninsular. In English both are Iberian. So what you when you write "Well, the term Iberian has got, as I said, an ethnical meaning, besides the mere geographical one", is pretty much what it is all about. You must use the context to figure out in what meaning it is used.

Before I played EB my knowledge about Iberia and the Iberian people (sensu lato) was very limited. However EB made it perfectly clear that the Iberian people (s.l.) consisted mainly out of Iberian tribes (s.s.), Lusitanians (who the EB team chose as a faction - mainly because of the hard coded limit of the RTW engine - I'll eat my shoes if there isn't going to be a second Iberian faction (s.l.) in the final release of EB II), the Celt-Iberians, and some "true" Celts and Basks,...

I think that is clear to most people (and I think to all who is truely interested in history and does not just want to play a game). Though perhaps you are right that it could be stated more obviously in some of the discriptions, and certainly in the faction discription of the Lusotannan.

Well :-/ Mea culpa est, me paenitet. I didn't expect you had researchers behind the shield :P, but that's positively surprising. All I can say is that maybe I had in mind old university proffessors playing EB and sending you emails correcting your work ¬¬ like they did to me LOL. All I was triying to do was to praise the job done by the team so the OP did not had reasons to "complain" :P

There's no effort in being polite like Winsington and try to be well mannered explaining in which ways I was wrong, this is not 4chan. No room 4 me to stand with your irony Moros, got it?

Well, that's all, never triying to disrespect the wonderful job the EB team has done = )

And we apologize for the animosity, but I must say that Moros was right with his comment. You did make the comment assuming something, without actually knowing something about it. So don't be so aggresive against him.

Now, if you can stand critisism, post what you have found that is wrong or odd and ask for an explanation. But remeber, the EB team can stand critisism to, but not the blunt request to change everything/or even one thing, just because one individual claims it has to be changed.

Also remeber that not everything you learn from university professors is correct.

[anubis88]

Also remeber that not everything you learn from university professors is correct.

A terrible fact. My professor told the whole class, if anyone want's to know how the Romans and Barbarians fought, he should watch the first battle in Gladiator. He said it was an extremly accurate situation :S

[Torres84]

So now that we've cleared that there are in fact specialists on the team, they might be interested which weird facts or inaccuracies you have found. That way they can double check them and corrected them, or correct you so you can learn something more about your ancestors; beneficial to both, I'd say.

As for the spelling mistakes, agreed. But the text files of EB are a whole book long, written by many people, most of them with English as their second or third language. Content and readability are more important here. Though signalling spelling and grammatical mistakes so that they can be corrected will be appreciated, I'm sure.

I was thinking mmmmhh maybe some more accurate description, I personally find incorrect the "via maiores" (major roads?) it's just a suggestion but since they upgraded that kind of roads I would call them via interprovicias or.

And the local conscription and militia center sounds more feudal than classical, they were levy citizens or non-citizens forced to join the ranks of the army as auxiliars. But IMO it would be more real if you can use a name that will depict the social stratums of Rome (maybe something like... cives extraordinarii or compelles cives something like that)

I forgot most of my latin and the correct way to conjugate but IMHO it will be easier for me to get it again if you think is neccesary because of the (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romance_languages) you know ;)

ok you tell me, cheers

[Torres84]

Guerrer de Moixent,
And we apologies for the animosity, but I must say that Moros was right with his comment. You did make the comment assuming something, without actually knowing something about it. So don't be so aggresive against him.

Now, if you can stand critisism, post what you have found that is wrong or odd and ask for an explanation. But remeber, the EB team can stand critisism to, but not the blunt request to change everything/or even one thing, just because one individual claims it has to be changed.

Also remeber that not everything you learn from university professors is correct.

I wasn't being aggressive :-/ :-/ :-/ did it sound aggressive?? I already accepted I was wrong man :3, nobody is perfect. But I was only triying to stop the sudden lapidation I suffered for this misunderstanding,I can stand being corrected, we're adults not teenagers.

BTW, Moros np mate (let's finish this like gentlemen, in the field of battle) LOL

[Moros]

Make it a desert and it's on.

[WinsingtonIII]

I wasn't being aggressive :-/ :-/ :-/ did it sound aggressive?? I already accepted I was wrong man :3, nobody is perfect. But I was only triying to stop the sudden lapidation I suffered for this misunderstanding,I can stand being corrected, we're adults not teenagers.

BTW, Moros np mate (let's finish this like gentlemen, in the field of battle) LOL

I believe he was addressing the comment about being aggressive towards Guerrer de Moixent, not yourself, Torres.

Hey, the references you're talking about are fine (and very useful to explain where each tribe was located to readers who may only have vague knowledge about Spanish geography). I wrote that in reference to the "Features" page, in it's "Factions" section, where it says: "Spain remade into the Lusotannan or Lusitanians representing perhaps the strongest and most warlike Iberian tribe."
When I saw it, I thought it was a strange wording, since Spain didn't exist back then, and the Lusitanians weren't Iberians (although they were a tribe from Iberia, which brings me back to the whole idea I was talking about above).

Yes, that reference is due to the Rome Total War vanilla faction being named Spain (which of course is an utterly ridiculous name for the period). The team is trying to explain to the average vanilla RTW player that the Lusitanians are the new name for "Spain" in this mod. This inaccuracy is on Creative Assembly for naming their original faction that in the first place.

Now, I don't know much about the ethnicities of the Iberian peninsula, but I looked at your map (very interesting btw) and I did not see an Iberian ethnicity listed. I did see an Iberian linguistic group listed, and as far as I could tell, the Lusitani were included as part of that group. Am I missing something?

[Taedius]

It is indeed listed as a linguistic group on the east coast and the Baleares. But the Lusotani are placed further west, and coloured as Indo-European/ pre-Celtic.

[WinsingtonIII]

It is indeed listed as a linguistic group on the east coast and the Baleares. But the Lusotani are placed further west, and coloured as Indo-European/ pre-Celtic.

Oh they made the color key a bit too similar then, because to me it looked the same

Still, there's no mention of an Iberian ethnic group on that map.