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    Member Member TheSleepyOne's Avatar
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    Default Re: What are the Cimbri?

    Quote Originally Posted by cmacq View Post
    Well, its good to see someone will read this. I've found thats always been a big problem. You see, everything I've posted on the last two pages, I had posted In vastly abbreviated form, with citations on the opening pages of this thread. However, it seems some didn't bother to look into that information.
    Indeed. I just hope there wont be a test after I'm done reading - still trying to make heads and tails of it all. Anyway, since I'm to study history starting from this september, I'm sure this will be helpfull at some point.
    I am, however, not entirely sure my german teacher appreciates me reading this during her lessons, so...

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    Bruadair a'Bruaisan Member cmacq's Avatar
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    Default Re: What are the Cimbri?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheSleepyOne View Post
    Indeed. I just hope there wont be a test after I'm done reading - still trying to make heads and tails of it all. Anyway, since I'm to study history starting from this september, I'm sure this will be helpfull at some point.
    I am, however, not entirely sure my german teacher appreciates me reading this during her lessons, so...
    Feel free to use whatever you see fit. As you are Dansk you may notice how similar the pre-RIA material culture of Denmark and the Northwestblock area are. The reason is because they are part of the same very conservative cultural complex. In this respect the Nordic Bronze Age is a myth. You see most of the material assemblage that make up this complex was actually made in Denmark or were local copies of artifacts made in Denmark. More or less, this pattern continued into the pre-RIA. The only diagnostic feature that differentiates northern Scandinavia is the Nordic Long House, which is a hold over of the Neolithic Long House. In contrast, in the Hallstatt Denmark and Northwestblock area, then in the LaTene northeast Gaul we have the Byre Houses.


    Byre House
    Last edited by cmacq; 07-30-2010 at 06:53.
    quae res et cibi genere et cotidiana exercitatione et libertate vitae

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    Member Member TheSleepyOne's Avatar
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    Default Re: What are the Cimbri?

    Quote Originally Posted by cmacq View Post
    Feel free to use whatever you see fit.
    Thank you!

    Quote Originally Posted by cmacq View Post
    As you are Dansk you may notice how similar the pre-RIA material culture of Denmark and the Northwestblock area are. The reason is because they are part of the same very conservative cultural complex. In this respect the Nordic Bronze Age is a myth. You see most of the material assemblage that make up this complex was actually made in Denmark or were local copies of artifacts made in Denmark. More or less, this pattern continued into the pre-RIA. The only diagnostic feature that differentiates northern Scandinavia is the Nordic Long House, which is a hold over of the Neolithic Long House. In contrast, in the Hallstatt Denmark and Northwestblock area, then in the LaTene northeast Gaul we have the Byre Houses.
    Indeed, it's one of the reasons I became interested in this. So far, the few pictures of artefacts I've found on the internet, looks remarkably alike.

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    Default Re: What are the Cimbri?

    Thank you cmacq for the huge volumes of information you've provided here - and also the references to the sources. I've got the weekend now to try and digest some of it...

    Once one gets even slightly under the surface of the generalised and summary distinctions made by various contemporary writers, it becomes clear that the Celtic/Gaul/German cultures were not so easily and clearly seperate and definitive entities...

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    Bruadair a'Bruaisan Member cmacq's Avatar
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    Default Re: What are the Cimbri?

    What do we really know about Ario-uistos.


    Julius Caesar, De bello Gallico
    Book 1, chapter 31

    [10] Sed peius victoribus Sequanis quam Haeduis victis accidisse, propterea quod Ariovistus, rex Germanorum, in eorum finibus consedisset tertiamque partem agri Sequani, qui esset optimus totius Galliae,

    My Rendering
    However, it was worse for the victorious Sequani than what befell the vanquished Aedui, because Ariovistus, a German king, on the east settled into a third part of their land, which was the best in all of Gaul,

    Bohn
    But a worse thing had befallen the victorious Sequani than the vanquished Aedui, for Ariovistus the king of the Germans, had settled in their territories, and had seized upon a third of their land, which was the best in the whole of Gaul,
    OK, from this we know he had a Celtic name. We also are told he was a king of the Germans or a German king.
    Last edited by cmacq; 08-01-2010 at 05:54.
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    Bruadair a'Bruaisan Member cmacq's Avatar
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    Default Re: What are the Cimbri?

    Next, we learn that a group called the Harudes have crossed into the territory of the Aedui and at this point Ariouistos was unwilling or unable to control them. The Harudes are clearly Ptolemy’s Charoudes found in eastern Denmark (within their traditional district of Hardsyssel), the OE Hæredas of southern Norway (AKA the Horder of Hordaland), and Arochi of Jordanes. Furthermore we’re told that a huge collection of Swabians had collected on the east bank of the Rhine and were waiting to cross in masse. Finally, Caesar says he was deeply alarmed by these events, and feared that the Harudes and Swabos would join up with Ariouistos’ German army.


    Julius Caesar, De bello Gallico
    Book 1, chapter 37

    Haec eodem tempore Caesari mandata referebantur et legati ab Haeduis et a Treveris veniebant: [2] Haedui questum quod Harudes, qui nuper in Galliam transportati essent, fines eorum popularentur: sese ne obsidibus quidem datis pacem Ariovisti redimere potuisse; [3] Treveri autem, pagos centum Sueborum ad ripas Rheni consedisse, qui Rhemum transire conarentur; his praeesse Nasuam et Cimberium fratres. Quibus rebus Caesar vehementer commotus maturandum sibi existimavit, ne, si nova manus Sueborum cum veteribus copiis Ariovisti sese coniunxisset, minus facile resisti posset. [4] Itaque re frumentaria quam celerrime potuit comparata magnis itineribus ad Ariovistum contendit.

    My Rendering
    At this time and place ambassadors came from the Aedui and Treviri and delivered thus to Caesar: the Aedui complained about the Harudes, who had recently crossed over into Gaul, pillaging their easten frontier; indeed even with hostages they could not buy back peace from Ariouistos; In contrast the Treviri claimed that Swabians from 100 districts were encamped on the banks of the Rhine, attempting to cross, lead by the brothers Nasuos and Cimbrios. Of this Caesar was greatly shaken, thinking he should act quickly, in fact, if this recent force of Swabians joined with the former army of Ariouistos, he would be less able to resist. Therefore, as soon as supplied with grain, he forced marched to draw close to Ariouistos.

    Bohn
    At the same time that this message was delivered to Caesar, embassadors came from the Aedui and the Treviri ; from the Aedui to complain that the Harudes, who had lately been brought over into Gaul, were ravaging their territories; that they had not been able to purchase peace from Ariovistus, even by giving hostages: and from the Treviri , [to state] that a hundred cantons of the Suevi had encamped on the banks of the Rhine , and were attempting to cross it; that the brothers, Nasuas and Cimberius, headed them. Being greatly alarmed at these things, Caesar thought that he ought to use all dispatch, lest, if this new band of Suevi should unite with the old troops of Ariovistus, he [Ariovistus] might be less easily withstood. Having therefore, as quickly as he could, provided a supply of corn, he hastened to Ariovistus by forced marches.
    So far there is no statment that Ariouistos was a Swabian. Also of interest are the names of the Swabian leaders ‘the brothers Nasuos and Cimbrios.’ Therefore, it seems that at the time Caesar was writting, the Harudes nor the Swabians in general, were actually a part of Ariouistos’ army.
    Last edited by cmacq; 08-03-2010 at 04:03.
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    Bruadair a'Bruaisan Member cmacq's Avatar
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    Default Re: What are the Cimbri?

    Here we are also given a brief review of Ariouistos.

    Julius Caesar, De bello Gallico
    Book 1, chapter 44

    [1]Ariovistus ad postulata Caesaris pauca respondit, de suis virtutibus multa praedicavit: [2] transisse Rhenum sese non sua sponte, sed rogatum et arcessitum a Gallis; non sine magna spe magnisque praemiis domum propinquosque reliquisse; sedes habere in Gallia ab ipsis concessas, obsides ipsorum voluntate datos; stipendium capere iure belli, quod victores victis imponere consuerint. [3] Non sese Gallis sed Gallos sibi bellum intulisse: omnes Galliae civitates ad se oppugnandum venisse ac contra se castra habuisse; eas omnes copias a se uno proelio pulsas ac superatas esse. [4] Si iterum experiri velint, se iterum paratum esse decertare; si pace uti velint, iniquum esse de stipendio recusare, quod sua voluntate ad id tempus pependerint.

    My Rendering
    [1]To Caesar’s demands Ariouistos answered a few things, to publicly state his virtue; [2] that he crossed over the Rhine not by his choice, rather he was summoned by the Gaul’s petition; that not without great expectations of reward did he leave kith and kin; that he was entertained in Gaul by their own concession, an occupation freely rendered; that tribute as a right of war, was traditionally imposed by victors upon the vanquished, [3] that the Gauls made war upon him, rather than the revise, as all the states of Gaul came to fight, encamped against him; that in a single battle he defeated all those forces. [4] That if they wished another test, he was ready to fight, yet if they wanted peace, it is not right to contest tribute, which had been freely paid until then.

    Bohn
    Ariovistus briefly replied to the demands of Caesar; but expatiated largely on his own virtues, "that he had crossed the Rhine not of his own accord, but on being invited and sent for by the Gauls; that he had not left home and kindred without great expectations and great rewards; that he had settlements in Gaul, granted by the Gauls themselves; that the hostages had been given by their good-will; that he took by right of war the tribute which conquerors are accustomed to impose on the conquered; that he had not made war upon the Gauls, but the Gauls upon him; that all the states of Gaul came to attack him, and had encamped against him; that all their forces had been routed and beaten by him in a single battle; that if they chose to make a second trial, he was ready to encounter them again; but if they chose to enjoy peace, it was unfair to refuse the tribute, which of their own free-will they had paid up to that time.
    This tells us that indeed Ariouistos was the character that brought the Germans into Gaul fourteen years prior, at the request of the Sequani. This seems to be yet another case of ‘De Excidio Britanniae,’ whereby a barbarian faction is invited as the wolf to watch over the Hen House. What followed is Ariovistos’ reasons for his actions in Gaul and thinly veiled threats against the Gauls and Romans. None of this has any real bearing on his ethnicity.
    Last edited by cmacq; 08-02-2010 at 04:21.
    quae res et cibi genere et cotidiana exercitatione et libertate vitae

    Herein events and rations daily birth the labors of freedom.

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