light spear balance (vs. swords) in 1.2

[Metaluis90]

hi everybody, I've just read the whole discussion between drewski and watchman about which weapong would perform the best... It was really enjoyable, let me tell you both :)
anyway I wanted to know if the shieldwall ability (additioned by the BI.exe) compensates this lack of defense, or I-don't-know-what-it-is that everybody is praising-complaining about...

As far as I know, this attack bonus to the spearmen was given due the fact that a proper phalanx (or hoplitic) formation couldn't be properly represented in the RTW engine, then, in my humble opinion, the reduction of this base attack would be legitimated


Another thing, the other day I was making 1v1 units fight just out of fun, myself always using the praetorian cohort... anyway, what make me astonished was that the elite heavy spearmen for the seleukids BEAT THE SH1T OUT OF my pretorians... is it that normal? I mean is used them in a flat, desertic map, with no advantages for any sides apart form the numbers (pretorians' got 83 soldiers, against 63 of the spearmen, if I remember correctly) another thing, my praetorians were on guard mode! is it normal?

[Drewski]

hi everybody, I've just read the whole discussion between drewski and watchman about which weapong would perform the best... It was really enjoyable, let me tell you both :)
anyway I wanted to know if the shieldwall ability (additioned by the BI.exe) compensates this lack of defense, or I-don't-know-what-it-is that everybody is praising-complaining about...

As far as I know, this attack bonus to the spearmen was given due the fact that a proper phalanx (or hoplitic) formation couldn't be properly represented in the RTW engine, then, in my humble opinion, the reduction of this base attack would be legitimated


Another thing, the other day I was making 1v1 units fight just out of fun, myself always using the praetorian cohort... anyway, what make me astonished was that the elite heavy spearmen for the seleukids BEAT THE SH1T OUT OF my pretorians... is it that normal? I mean is used them in a flat, desertic map, with no advantages for any sides apart form the numbers (pretorians' got 83 soldiers, against 63 of the spearmen, if I remember correctly) another thing, my praetorians were on guard mode! is it normal?

Glad you found it of interest :)

Those Elite Selec Spearmen (I'm guessing you mean the Basilikou) have full mail body armour (19 armour in game) and 34 total defence (ouch). They have a much better attack too than the Praets, who don't have an AP weapon, and only .13 lethality. Those Basilikou will beat the stuffing out of just about anything. So no real suprise there..

[Metaluis90]

I slightly read something about that in their unit description... they are stated as the best assault unit of the world (or something like that) but is the difference between units that different? I mean you are not talking about a standard legionary, we are talking about the pretorians, the elite of the elite of the roman empire. I mean, I really dont want to look like a roman fanboy, altough i do love the history of this civilization... but has the difference must be that overwhelming? When I stopped that battle the basilikou got 40 of their men, while the pretorians only 20 or less, in big unit scale

out of topic, I got a problem downloading both your mod and BI.exe mod made by Drapezhnik!
when i want to download yours, it says that there's a missing file, or the file cannot be find (in the mozilla browser, translated to English "File not found") and in Drapezhnik's one, Filefront says there is a unexpected error, or something like that... If only you could reupload the file, i would really appreciate it :)

[siegfriedfr]

In other words drewski, can you post your current Edu please? :)

[Drewski]

In other words drewski, can you post your current Edu please? :)

I can do that no problem, but make a copy of yours before overwriting, as {see above posts} : loads of little tweaks here and there. I don't have the basic original "-4 off all light_spear" anymore, it was on my old PC, and I had a dedicated gaming machine custom made in April (which is still very nice ;))

Uploaded my current EDU to filefront here

[Metaluis90]

hey, thanks a lot man! I'll now install it using the suggestion of Watchman for winmerge

[siegfriedfr]

I can do that no problem, but make a copy of yours before overwriting, as {see above posts} : loads of little tweaks here and there. I don't have the basic original "-4 off all light_spear" anymore, it was on my old PC, and I had a dedicated gaming machine custom made in April (which is still very nice ;))

Uploaded my current EDU to filefront here

Thanks!

Whay did you remove 1 attack to horse archers units tho? Too powerful?

[Drewski]

Thanks!

Whay did you remove 1 attack to horse archers units tho? Too powerful?

My way of thinking was this:- the horse archers and geographically local troops had basically the same weapon. I know that the HAs were extremely good at firing while moving, but you won't ever convince me that they were just as accurate, as a well trained man firing from a stationary base, i.e. foot archers. Missile attack in RTW really means accuracy, as all missiles have a lethality of 100% if they strike their target. Therefore I made HA have 1 less missile attack.

They are still completely nasty to use or face ;)

Oh btw , I just remembered I replaced Casse Bodyguards with Rycalawre instead, just found the Chariots too frustrating/annoying.

I did warn you of quite a few odd changes here and there....

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

I slightly read something about that in their unit description... they are stated as the best assault unit of the world (or something like that) but is the difference between units that different? I mean you are not talking about a standard legionary, we are talking about the pretorians, the elite of the elite of the roman empire. I mean, I really dont want to look like a roman fanboy, altough i do love the history of this civilization... but has the difference must be that overwhelming? When I stopped that battle the basilikou got 40 of their men, while the pretorians only 20 or less, in big unit scale

Praetorians are far from the elite soldiers in this game. TAB's should slaughter them. I would think Carthage has at least 3 units capable of beating them (Elite Liby Phonecians, Iberian Assault, Sacred Band), Arche 3 as well (TAB's, Hypaspistai, Peltastai Makedonikai), I would think Solduros, Carnutes, and Gaesatae would beat them, maybe even Neitos. In fact there are probably about 20 better units, maybe more.

[Metaluis90]

Praetorians are far from the elite soldiers in this game. TAB's should slaughter them. I would think Carthage has at least 3 units capable of beating them (Elite Liby Phonecians, Iberian Assault, Sacred Band), Arche 3 as well (TAB's, Hypaspistai, Peltastai Makedonikai), I would think Solduros, Carnutes, and Gaesatae would beat them, maybe even Neitos. In fact there are probably about 20 better units, maybe more.

yes, I also tried pretorians vs gaesatae, and the celts would have beaten them, if I hadn't use guard mode.

So if pretorians are far from the elite of the elite of the game, where does their strenght lies? in their stamina?

[Suraknar]

Hello all, this is a great discussion to say the least.

Well I am making a Mod based on EB (customizing my experience mainly), and I run in to this issue as well while trying to balance units to my liking so I run a search to see and found many threads about this Spear issue.

Anyhow my final solution as of now is to give

"Spear, Light_Spear" attributes to units with Phalanx and Long Pikes, this way they get both defense +8 and attack +8 against cavalry , while they get Attack and defense -4 against infantry.

Non phalanx and units I left to "Light_spear" and added "Spear_bonus_4", this way they get +8 defense bonus against cavalry, -4 defense against infanrty, and +4 attack against cavalry, and since they have short spears compared to the Phalanx units, but still get some bonus compared to non spear infantry vs cavalry.

The idea being that "Cavalry > Infantry > Spearmen > Cavalry".

Run some tests so far it looks good and thus I did not have to fiddle with attack and defense ratings. And accoding to EDU definitions there does not seem to be any conflicts with combining "Spear, Long_Pike, Light_spear" attributes.

Just thought to share this in case its useful to anyone.

[Jackaloboulos]

I've read through the thread, but I still don't understand--have we confirmed whether or not the modifier is intended from a Team Member?