Unions: Where did the U.S.A. go wrong?

**Lemur** · 08-08-2010, 21:46

Originally Posted by jabarto

Oh, and stop with the "unions are both good and bad" bunk. Life is not like South Park and the truth is not always in the middle. Thinking that it is shows you have no clue what you're talking about.

I don't see where I have made the argument that "truth is always in the middle." That would be a surprising thing for me to write or say, given that I don't believe it. Even more surprising to hear that from South Park, given how they've never made that argument, um, ever.

Rather, I understand how the need for unions arose, I understand the good unions did, and I have seen firsthand how messed-up they can be today. I can't go into too much detail, but I have done work for a manufacturer who has a strong union presence in-house. The union employees take an extremely adversarial attitude toward management, the company, and pretty much anybody who wanders by. To call their attitude "counterproductive" would be an epic understatement. Just go ahead and attempt to move a cable out of your way, and watch the guys freak out. You're gonna cost somebody his job if you touch that cable!

I've got a hazy outline of a theory, that the breakdown of unions is really a breakdown of management, that bad executives have allowed an us v. them attitude to fester in some industries, which led to a polarization between labor and management. But I haven't done deep reading or study on the subject, so I can't assert anything with confidence.

**jabarto** · 08-08-2010, 21:50

Originally Posted by Lemur

I don't see where I have made the argument that "truth is always in the middle." That would be a surprising thing for me to write or say, given that I don't believe it. Even more surprising to hear that from South Park, given how they've never made that argument, um, ever.

Rather, I understand how the need for unions arose, I understand the good unions did, and I have seen firsthand how messed-up they can be today. I can't go into too much detail, but I have done work for a manufacturer who has a strong union presence in-house. The union employees take an extremely adversarial attitude toward management, the company, and pretty much anybody who wanders by. To call their attitude "counterproductive" would be an epic understatement. Just go ahead and attempt to move a cable out of your way, and watch the guys freak out. You're gonna cost somebody his job if you touch that cable!

I've got a hazy outline of a theory, that the breakdown of unions is really a breakdown of management, that bad executives have allowed an us v. them attitude to fester in some industries, which led to a polarization between labor and management. But I haven't done deep reading or study on the subject, so I can't assert anything with confidence.

ALright, I guess that was a little aggressive of me. I'm sorry.

My point still stands, though; by saying that "some unions are good, some are bad", you're ascribing to them this kind of moral ambiguity that simply doesn't exist. There are bad unions - the prison workers' union in CA comes to mind - but that's literally the only valid example of unions causing serious trouble that I've ever heard. The overwhelming mojaority are agents of good.

**drone** · 08-09-2010, 15:48

Do unions in Europe and Japan have mob ties?

**Lemur** · 08-09-2010, 15:53

Originally Posted by drone

Do unions in Europe and Japan have mob ties?

Dunno about Europe, but in Japan definitely. That said, the Yakuza have historically had ties to the extreme rightwing of Japanese politics, so the situation is a bit different from the U.S.A.