Faction strengths?

[vartan]

Can somebody explain to me the point of the secondary charge? I ask this for the following reason.

When your horse is at a distance, and you alt-right-click in order to get them to trot to the enemy, charge with spears, and when charge is over, to continue in melee with the secondary weapon...since the charge occurs with lowered spears and not axes/maces (the secondary weapons), why does the computer not just use the primary spear charge initially? The secondary weapon is actually NEVER used in a charge...so what's the point of its existence?

I ask again, please, if anybody know, why a secondary charge? What is the reasoning, if any?

[Cute Wolf]

I ask again, please, if anybody know, why a secondary charge? What is the reasoning, if any?

I'm pretty sure that secondary charge things has been discussed in modding forum (scriptorium or mod questions, I forgot) for some times... For example, if your cavalrymen has lance as primary, and mace for secondary, at first he'll use lance for charging, as intended, but when you order with alt r click on to fight with secondary, they'll use the secondary attack stats. And when you withdraw them from melee, but not enough time for them to grab their spears again (read: revert to animated lance graphics, as opposed to animated mace graphics... it need some transition time), and you order them to charge again, they'll show the "charging" note at their unit comments, but they won't use the primary charge value, instead they'll use the secondary.

You'll got secondary charge really working when you play M2TW, since the lance will be unavailable in longer times after switching to secondary, making your horsies must use secondary swords to charge when their lance regeneration time is not enough...

[-42-]

Carthage is probably my favorite faction in terms of roster, a bit of everything, including absolutely insane Iberian units, which have the AP javelins as well as swords. Iberian cav is also better than anything west of Byzantium.

[seienchin]

Nope. Iberian heavy cavallery isnt too usefull, because of their low stamina. I prefer the greek style cavallery like the molosson agema.
And the normal iberian units are outclassef by the lusotan ones.
But still carthage is a great faction I esspecialy like their elite african units and iberian assault troops.

[antisocialmunky]

Iberian Cavalry is abit wonky. They are good on paper but are underwhelming on the battlefield. This is especially true of the missile cavalry like the cantabrian missile cavalry(has tons of missiles but they don't work that well).

[-42-]

Never had an issue with them, hammer and anvil all day long with those suckers. They don't have the charge of the sacred band though. I actually find the cartaginian citizen cav to ve very useful against Rome, great hammers for what they realistically are. Some guys lement that they suck in melee, but I never really use my cavalry for prolonged melee if given the option, too pricy to replace.

[athanaric]

Iberian Cavalry is a bit wonky. They are good on paper but are underwhelming on the battlefield. This is especially true of the missile cavalry like the cantabrian missile cavalry(has tons of missiles but they don't work that well).

With the Cantabrians, I guess it is the complete lack of body armour (which most other skirmisher cav possess, to a limited extent). OTOH, I use Dahae skirmishers a lot, who are almost identical, and haven't found them too weak.

For comparison:

Dahae skirmishers/Cantabri skirmishers: armour 0, shield 2; 14 missiles (!) and AP sword/axe though.

Arachosians: armour 1, shield 2; otherwise see Dahae.

Hippakontistai: amour 3, shield 2; same AP sword as Cantabri, but otherwise inferior.

Leuce Epos: armour 5, shield 2; AP spear (good for charge). No Cantabrian Circle.

Bedouin cavalry: armour 4, shield 2; AP spear.

etc.


Dahae, Arachosians, and Cantabrians are fearsome elephant killers, but very vulnerable to missiles.

[antisocialmunky]

With the Cantabrians, I guess it is the complete lack of body armour (which most other skirmisher cav possess, to a limited extent). OTOH, I use Dahae skirmishers a lot, who are almost identical, and haven't found them too weak.

For comparison:

Dahae skirmishers/Cantabri skirmishers: armour 0, shield 2; 14 missiles (!) and AP sword/axe though.

Arachosians: armour 1, shield 2; otherwise see Dahae.

Hippakontistai: amour 3, shield 2; same AP sword as Cantabri, but otherwise inferior.

Leuce Epos: armour 5, shield 2; AP spear (good for charge). No Cantabrian Circle.

Bedouin cavalry: armour 4, shield 2; AP spear.

etc.


Dahae, Arachosians, and Cantabrians are fearsome elephant killers, but very vulnerable to missiles.

They are nice for slaughtering certain infantry types or pin cushioning someone's butt. However, from the MP perspective - you can't do anything with them because they aren't good enough to fill their job description for the price in an Iberian army. If you look at them as a horse by itself. Its a okay unit. Its kinda of hard to explain. Iberians as a whole are really good on paper but don't perform as well as you would expect against humans.

Their heavy line infantry are very good but cost too much. Their medium infantry is some of the best in the world but they have to double as line infantry since Iberia doesn't have an affordable heavy infantry. A lot of the value of their medium infantry comes from the fact that they are fast and mobile. So if they are forced to stand and fight outside of the woods they aren't fighting at their max potential. They also tend to get shot to pieces if they have to stand and fight.

Iberian cavalry gets rocked by Greek cavalry but Iberia has FAST medium infantry that along with their cavalry can take Greek cavalry in a stand up fight. However, FAST infantry are still slower than horses and the Greek infantry aren't that slow.

I don't know. Iberia is a good faction but it doesn't work out that well against humans atleast in a 20vs20 unit match up where maneuver is unfavored due to having even unit numbers.

[WinsingtonIII]

Iberian cav is also better than anything west of Byzantium.

What about the Getai's Ktistai? There isn't any Iberian Cav unit that can counter heavy horse archers that also have incredible morale (18) and have secondary lances to bring home a powerful charge. They are technically West of Byzantium as well....

Thraikioi Prodromoi, Hippeis Thessalikoi, Molosson Agema, and Illyrioi Hippeis (they may not look like much but they are incredibly fast and versatile) are also in the running for the best Western cavalry in my opinion as well. The Heavy Iberian Lancer cavalry are certainly the heaviest cavalry in the West, but I think all of the above units are potentially better in that they are more versatile. But, then again, I'm biased, because I prefer versatile, fast, and hard-hitting cavalry that can't necessarily hold in a melee over the heavy melee cavalry like cataphracts.

[antisocialmunky]

Molosson Agema is the best cavalry to fight other cavalry though the Iberian Lancers and Sacred Band are the heaviest in the West. However, those two heavy cavalry units end up comparing not as favorably against the Greek and Eastern Cavalry. They do their job well enough.

I was mainly referring to their medium/missile options. They are somewhat underpowered...

[ARCHIPPOS]

I prefer versatile, fast, and hard-hitting cavalry that can't necessarily hold in a melee over the heavy melee cavalry like cataphracts.

different troops for different tasks ... you can't crash medium-class cavalry on the back of a phallanx and leave it there for long (more than 5 seconds actually) ... and you can't chase down annoying horse skirmishers with your shinning kataphracts either...

[WinsingtonIII]

different troops for different tasks ... you can't crash medium-class cavalry on the back of a phallanx and leave it there for long (more than 5 seconds actually) ... and you can't chase down annoying horse skirmishers with your shinning kataphracts either...

That's why I said that you shouldn't leave them in melee, and I don't leave them in melee. The way I play, cavalry are not meant to be getting into prolonged melees, that's what infantry are for (different troops for different tasks, as you said yourself). If the enemy has heavier cavalry than me, I can charge them with my lighter cavalry to occupy them and then run over a reserve spear unit to tie them up (or just block them with a spear unit in the first place). Then I pull out the lighter cavalry immediately and the enemy cavalry are stuck fighting spear infantry. The way I see it, cataphracts and other super-heavy cavalry are rarely, if ever, truly necessary. The only situation in which they really might be is if your enemy is using cataphracts extensively themselves (to the point where your infantry cannot deal with it because in ahistorically huge masses, cataphracts are a tad overpowered). Against infantry, repeated charges by lighter cavalry can accomplish the same result of a more reasonable number of cataphracts (it may take longer though, and you probably can't charge from the front). And achieving repeated charges is much easier when your cavalry has speed, maneuverability, and stamina.

That is not to say that cataphracts are bad, they are very good units, but I just personally prefer the lighter shock cavalry units that focus more on charge and speed at the sacrifice of melee abilities. Cataphracts are like a big expensive sledgehammer, I prefer the precise (and in some cases still just as expensive) scalpel of more maneuverable cavalry, that's just my personal play style.

All nice, but I think I simply use my cavalry differently, if I want missles I use foot missle troops and have cavalry screen them. The greek psuedo-companions are nice enough, but I'm always afraid to get them into a melee. I dislike javelin cav, as I can rarely get more than 20 kills out of them with missles (probably a fault in my play style). I almost never counter cavalry with cavalry, I simply use a unit of reserve spearmen to kill them efficiently. Getting my flankers bogged down with a force they may not be able to escape from is a nightmare for me.

Take a look at the earlier part of this post (in response to Archippos), I think we actually use them kind of similarly. I can understand preferring foot missiles to horse archers, I actually find HAs to be annoying to control sometimes. I too dislike javelin cavalry, and none of the units I mentioned there were jav cav, nor would any jav cav ever make that list in my opinion. As I say above, I never get cavalry into prolonged melees with other cavalry, that's the job of reserve spears. Also, as noted above, the Thessalian and Epeirote heavy cavalry (along with the others on that list) aren't meant to be prolonged melees, their power is in their charge and speed/stamina.

EDIT: We're getting off-topic here, this can be deleted if necessary.

[-42-]

What about the Getai's Ktistai? There isn't any Iberian Cav unit that can counter heavy horse archers that also have incredible morale (18) and have secondary lances to bring home a powerful charge. They are technically West of Byzantium as well....

Thraikioi Prodromoi, Hippeis Thessalikoi, Molosson Agema, and Illyrioi Hippeis (they may not look like much but they are incredibly fast and versatile) are also in the running for the best Western cavalry in my opinion as well. The Heavy Iberian Lancer cavalry are certainly the heaviest cavalry in the West, but I think all of the above units are potentially better in that they are more versatile. But, then again, I'm biased, because I prefer versatile, fast, and hard-hitting cavalry that can't necessarily hold in a melee over the heavy melee cavalry like cataphracts.

All nice, but I think I simply use my cavalry differently, if I want missles I use foot missle troops and have cavalry screen them. The greek psuedo-companions are nice enough, but I'm always afraid to get them into a melee. I dislike javelin cav, as I can rarely get more than 20 kills out of them with missles (probably a fault in my play style). I almost never counter cavalry with cavalry, I simply use a unit of reserve spearmen to kill them efficiently. Getting my flankers bogged down with a force they may not be able to escape from is a nightmare for me.