Westeros: A Game of Thrones.

[Greyblades]

Eh?

[johnhughthom]

Okay, sorry guy. This game is over. I will not be back at the org. I apologise for leaving you high and dry like this, but I would appreciate it you don't try to contact me.

[Greyblades]

What. Why?

[Arjos]

O.o

I get it about the game, but leaving the org? :O

[Kival]

Oh. That's a shame.

[Montmorency]

Was fun while it lasted. Looked promising.

:bow:

[Greyblades]

I dont understand was it the workload? Has real life problems come up? What?

[Arjos]

Well this game had me excited like a kid at christmas eve 24/7 since it started ^^
Was one hell of a concept, if one week is too stressing, let's move to a monthly thing...
But really JHT, hope to still see you around for some mafia games :)
I'm your Riddler! :P

[Montmorency]

Probably the fact that it took 12 hours to get these result posts/PMs out.

[Greyblades]

Yeah, but to up and cut all ties to the entire website without warning?

[Montmorency]

I suppose he will return, at some point.

[Greyblades]

He said he wouldnt be back...

[Montmorency]

Give it a month, or a year...

[Greyblades]

But by then I will have moved on. Everyone will have moved on. Yet another game lost without so much as sentance explaining it.

[Montmorency]

What's worse, we'll be old!

This forum's core membership seems to average 2 or 3 or 4 years since account creation. The 2007 cadre is particularly well-represented.

[Beskar]

I think John probably needed a co-host. It is probably very difficult for him because these games do put you under heavy stress, especially when no one gets their way almost. I think he staying up till 5am, taking him like 12 hours or so, probably makes it feel like unpaid work.

Don't worry about the game if it is too stressful, no one will hate you or dislike you for it. Some people might stress about results but that is bound to happen anyway. Take a break if needed, but you are always welcome back here.

[Greyblades]

Noble sons, Cold war, Beefdom, Lassara, now Westeros. It seems that the games I get invested in dont last. I've gotten used to it, I guess, but I would like to know why this one ended.

[Kival]

I agree with Tiaexz. Quiting the game is completly understandable but you should not think people who are angered after the results have a personal grudge against you now.

[Arjos]

Let the man sleep guys, I get stressed waking up in the morning :D


It seems that the games I get invested in dont last.

Culprit!

Just messing with you, this game was/is MASSIVE, pretty much it :P
Anyway JHT is pulling everyone's leg and went to bed ^^

But hey if it's true, he has all the right to do so...

[Double A]

Gah!

This happens EVERY SINGLE TIME there's a strategy game in the org: It ends abruptly. I ****ing hate this ****.

[Sigurd]

Sorry to hear that you suddenly had to evacuate.

I really hope nothing serious (negative conjunction) happened in your RL John.
Take care and I hope you will return to us when things calm down.

Real Life always trumps online relations and commitments.

[Kagemusha]

Shame.Thank you for the game in any case.It was a thriller as long it lasted.:bow:
I dont think you should leave Org over a game.Take a break and come back when you feel like it. Games come and go and you should not take personally the spontanious reactions of people.
In my mind the game mechanics ,pushing so lot to the shoulders of host were somewhat self destructive. Speaking on experience as i hosted an interactive history that run more then couple years with about 20 human players playing different Japanese Clans in the chapter house.

If the decision of JHT is a final one considering ending the game. I have a large game slot open and i can take a jab at hosting a game with same theme. In any case it would not be the same game.As i believe some changes would have to be made in the mechanics and i think i might need a co host for all the work related to the game.

[Montmorency]

Should we reveal all of our secret doings and plans?

[Greyblades]

I'm curious what beskar was annoyed at me for.

[Arjos]

If the decision of JHT is a final one considering ending the game. I have a large game slot open and i can take a jab at hosting a game with same theme. In any case it would not be the same game.As i believe some changes would have to be made in the mechanics and i think i might need a co host for all the work related to the game.

I would really like to help out co-hosting: a florid theme like this one getting burnt is such a pity...
This turn I thought JHT had more of a "tech" problem with the PMs and so ended writing all the results in a rush...
Had he asked for a co-host I might have even dropped my character, I was really enjoying the game and its diplomacy in the background, but no game at all it's too bad...

If we can still keep this one alive would be quite nice, maybe with 3 hosts we can even manage the weekly pace by splitting tasks...
Unless no one trust us to remain silent with our former team mates ahahahahaha ^^

[Beskar]

John has sent me his files, I will be taking over as Host.

From what he has said, only Storm's End and Stark's need results. I will be attempting to get these out in some format tonight.

If you know some one interested as taking over as Stannis, let me know.

I might be amending some things or requesting for different format than John, I will be posting these up.

[Kagemusha]

John has sent me his files, I will be taking over as Host.

From what he has said, only Storm's End and Stark's need results. I will be attempting to get these out in some format tonight.

If you know some one interested as taking over as Stannis, let me know.

I might be amending some things or requesting for different format than John, I will be posting these up.

So the events of the last update remain?

[Ishmael]

Thanks Tiaexz!

I pity the person that takes over as Stannis, they could be in a better position at present....

[Beskar]

So the events of the last update remain?

Mostly.

It would be unfair for those who have had their fates decided to be thrown into a completely different situation. Then people know the results of if some one else was successful which might not be successful on a re-roll, etc. Especially regarding a certain marriage, for example.

So pretty much going to patch up the game and "refresh" from that point on...

Unless there is a big demand in a "restart".

[Montmorency]

Interesting. So your former faction-mates are no longer individuals?

I say keep everything that has transpired, finish up the result PMs, and get this rolling again!

:yes:

[Arjos]

Let us know if you need help (co-hosting, deciding new format etc) or anything else :)

BTW is John ok, coming back later on or plain simple fed up?

[Secura]

Unless there is a bad demand in a "restart".

I would ask for the second turn to be ignored or 'reset', to be honest... or just reboot the game from the beginning with your changes in tow. That's the only way I feel I can continue to participate as part of House Dragonstone.

[Jarema]

I am strongly AGAINST replaying only second turn.
Now, a lot of people would know what we wanted to do.
I am fine with both other solutions - either play from the moment after second phase, or restart the game (maybe it would be the best solution, also for host)

[Greyblades]

Thank you, Beskie. If you are reading this John Thank you for your efforts and I'm sorry if it was something I did that caused this.

I would ask for the second turn to be ignored or 'reset', to be honest... or just reboot the game from the beginning with your changes in tow. That's the only way I feel I can continue to participate as part of House Dragonstone.

I would like a reset to the start of turn 2 as well.

[Kagemusha]

If i could choose.I would restart the game and maybe make some tweaks to the mechanics.There was some rather controversial things last turn happening compared to actual orders.

[Beskar]

The problem is with restarting just this turn, is where there are downsides in some areas, other people are in a position of advantage. I have seen some differences in battle mechanics, so I am willing to re-roll those as I believe only this turn has had any -real- combat in them.

Some other things cannot really be changed.

[Arjos]

I don't know what was "controversial", but so far I was enjoying a lot unexpected results: imo that's like half of the game's fun...
As for the turn, replaying it sounds rather silly, so either we keep on going with the start of phase 3 or we restart from the beginning, latter being somewhat annoying if you ask me...

[Kagemusha]

I think there are quite lot of things which can be enhanced and im not just talking about battle mechanics, but i can start developing those things for a possible future game.

[Montmorency]

Oh god, please don't restart, unless you can promise a very speedy T1.

Besides, restarting is even more unfair, given all the knowledge we now have. I'd really prefer just wrapping up Month 2.

[Kagemusha]

I don't know what was "controversial", but so far I was enjoying a lot unexpected results: imo that's like half of the game's fun...
As for the turn, replaying it sounds rather silly, so either we keep on going with the start of phase 3 or we restart from the beginning, latter being somewhat annoying if you ask me...

Well unxpected is not a problem but if your forces are acting against direct and explicit orders.It becomes quite troublesome.

[Arjos]

I see, was it right from the start or could it have been due to circumstances?

[LazyMcCrow]

If i could choose.I would restart the game and maybe make some tweaks to the mechanics.There was some rather controversial things last turn happening compared to actual orders.

No disrespect to anyone intended, but as an interested observer, I'd hope that the mechanics of this game would be seriously examined before any kind of continuation or restart. At least as far as making sure that the new/replacement/original host, or co-hosts aren't biting off more than they can chew. There is a whole kind of bravodo/machismo/masochism amongst new games designers generally, that can and should be avoided, with nothing more required than; 1) proper preparation and 2) a realistic projection of time required to complete the job.

Hell - with all i have to do in RL, I'm kind of shaking about hosting a simple game of mafia - let alone something of this complexity and MAGNITUDE!

So - to everyone who wants to leap in and continue for 'the sake of the game': How long will the game take to complete? How much time will any new (required?) players need to be able to invest in the game per week? How much time (included projected inflation) should the hosts be prepared to invest in completing the game?

For the record, I'm not trying to be a spanner in the works or a naysayer, but if the above questions above can't be answered with any degree of certainty, then it might be best to re-evaluate the game. Double A's obvious frustration is the main effect this type of endeavor should aim to avoid.

[Double A]

Reasons why I'm frustrated: I've seen this happen at least 3 times on the org and friggin' Margaery got poisoned. Like 50 people knew about the wedding's location, and all of them sworn.

[Montmorency]

As a player, I invested at least 10 hours a week. New players would need, I guess, at least 5 hours to skim through factional content and the game thread(s). As for hosting, the players cannot say;too much is hidden from us.

[Kagemusha]

I see, was it right from the start or could it have been due to circumstances?

Lets just say that it was on decisive moment. and it was not because of circumstances.Everything was followed just like ordered up till then, but for some reason the orders stopped applying at the moment it was most important for them to be followed.

[Arjos]

Well, I don't know what happened, but sounds like something triggered in, be that external actions, bad luck due to low stats or whatever...


How long will the game take to complete?

No idea and frankly I hope it lasts as long as possible ^^


How much time will any new (required?) players need to be able to invest in the game per week?

It's really up to you, maybe some time to catch up with your faction about what's going on, but then all that matters is having some knowledge of the recent events and decisions so to be present to finalize the orders before the phase's end...


How much time (included projected inflation) should the hosts be prepared to invest in completing the game?

I really don't know, but if we all manage to settle for a "routined" process to send orders, I think the hosts will only need to write the results from that and be present to answer questions or respond in name of NPCs during the phase...

Maybe for the inquiries we should stick to PMs, I know they will pile up, but at least the host doesn't have to read every single post in the many QTs...
And in the end, this would form a detailed FAQ...

[Montmorency]

So what we have here is players who did well insisting on the status quo, while those who were worst off demand a do-over.

Can there be any compromise? There are still so many we haven't heard from. But no matter what the outcome, someone will leave alienated. Perhaps we should just call it a game...

[Kagemusha]

Well, I don't know what happened, but sounds like something triggered in, be that external actions, bad luck due to low stats or whatever...

The host knows exactly what it concerns, so making assumptions here really does not matter.


So what we have here is players who did well insisting on the status quo, while those who were worst off demand a do-over.

Can there be any compromise? There are still so many we haven't heard from. But no matter what the outcome, someone will leave alienated. Perhaps we should just call it a game...

Personally im ready to start over,continue from here, reset the turn. I am open for all options.In the end it is just a game.

[Jarema]

So what we have here is players who did well insisting on the status quo, while those who were worst off demand a do-over.

Can there be any compromise? There are still so many we haven't heard from. But no matter what the outcome, someone will leave alienated. Perhaps we should just call it a game...

As I said before, I just do not want partial solution. Either restart whole thing, or go further without repeating this turn. Of course, it is only my vote on this matter

[Ishmael]

I'll just chip in to say that whether we continue on or restart, I have heartily enjoyed playing and I have no doubt that I will continue to enjoy it. However, I do agree with Kage that events that should have been in control of the players, weren't, and that this has skewed what probably should have occurred in an unfair manner. Nonetheless, I'll be happy no matter what is decided.

[Beskar]

I have decided this is going to be the best course of action, I am going to have to reboot the game and going to reorganise everything from scratch.

This isn't because of anything John has done, it is mainly because I am ending up in a big situation I am unable to host to the best of my abilities and constricted within results already given out. I cannot go back and amend things without upsetting even more people and it is bad enough if some players were upset the first time.

Allowing me to restart will allow me to implement big changes from the "Get Go".

I will be opening a new thread on this.

[Greyblades]

Eh, honestly I'm fine for everything, another attempt to get Eddard alive would be nice but I had a good thing going with Tywin training joffrey to be subtle.
I'm curious, what happened to Margaery? what sort of poison was it?

[Arjos]

Ok, well I'm going to thank John for this extremely entertaining start and thrilling game concept ^^

Let's see the new version :P

[Ishmael]

I'm curious, what happened to Margaery? what sort of poison was it?

Posioned at her wedding feast, because (wait for the contrived coincidence) - the wine for the entire toast was poisoned, and Margaery just happened to drink first. A letter was found that seemed to implicate Stannis, and so he was placed under arrest in Oldtown (where he was overseeing the combined naval operation against the Ironborn). None of us really believe it was him, but we weren't informed of his imprisonment until after the turn was over.

EDIT: And I agree, thanks JHT for the concept and thanks Tiaexz for taking over! Shall we all publicise our Quicktopics?

[Double A]

Eh, honestly I'm fine for everything, another attempt to get Eddard alive would be nice but I had a good thing going with Tywin training joffrey to be subtle.
I'm curious, what happened to Margaery? what sort of poison was it?

Dude, I haven't even gotten my write-up. ALL I know is that she was poisoned, and that was because yesterday I asked john about how things went on Steam before going to bed.

[Montmorency]

Well, if we're starting over, it would be best not to. We will likely repeat quite a few of our actions. Don't forgot about the diplomacy, that will surely carry over.

[Arjos]

And that was the controversial behaviour? lol
People got mad and not knowing what to do, simply arrested the only suspect...

[Double A]

Well, if we're starting over, it would be best not to. We will likely repeat quite a few of our actions. Don't forgot about the diplomacy, that will surely carry over.

Most people will probably just build more ships on the first turn.

[Montmorency]

*coughs*

[Greyblades]

Posioned at her wedding feast, because (wait for the contrived coincidence) - the wine for the entire toast was poisoned, and Margaery just happened to drink first. A letter was found that seemed to implicate Stannis, and so he was placed under arrest in Oldtown (where he was overseeing the combined naval operation against the Ironborn). None of us really believe it was him, but we weren't informed of his imprisonment until after the turn was over.
...Huh, well seeing as we're starting over and theres no way I could ever use it again, I will admit I sent the wine. Pity it only got one of you. muahaha- etc

[Arjos]

It was obvious that was you XD

[Ishmael]

We were tossing up between you and Dorne, but were planning on blaming you for political reasons. We didn't want to needlessly antagonise Dorne, not when we had a neighbour who had just invaded with 25k troops we could pin it on instead.

[Greyblades]

It was obvious that was you XD
Of course, though not to the characters. I was kinda hoping the strangler would not kick in instantly, let more of you drink it, but I guess it doesnt matter.

[Arjos]

Tbh I think that action would have allied everyone against the Lannisters XD

[Greyblades]

Not when I poisoned Doran and pinned it on Magaery's grandmother on turn 3. :grin:

[Montmorency]

I'll be honest, when I heard the news I almost declared war on the spot.

I half-intended to declare a southern alliance and march on Lannisport with our combined force.

No cigar, Tywin. Doran doesn't drink gifted wine. :yes:

[Kagemusha]

And that was the controversial behaviour? lol
People got mad and not knowing what to do, simply arrested the only suspect...

Nope.That was the unexpected thing. The controversial thing was what the greyjoys probably wondered also what was that. Against our orders to remain upriver oldtown until the forces of Stannis and Renly would engage the Ironborn at Whispering sounds or arrive to Old Town.Our navy decided to peace meal attack them alone when we were just about to have superior odds against them. The whole plan was to lure the Ironborn into trying to stop Stannis from coming into oldtown. Next Stannis then fought them alone after our buts were already kicked.

[Greyblades]

Joke's on you, Tywin. Doran doesn't drink gifted wine.
Heh, Like I would try wine just after doing it to Magaery. Still, if it makes you feel any batter I was trying to get Renly not Magaery.

[Arjos]

If your fleet wasn't led by some authoritative character could easily be reckless soldiers...

[scottishranger]

I love being the Ironborn haha. But a restart is fine with me. Just want to see this game continue! Things will go differently I think next time

[Greyblades]

Yeah, this time Joffrey will stay in his room until after eddard has been captured.

[Ishmael]

Heh, Like I would try wine just after doing it to Magaery. Still, if it makes you feel any batter I was trying to get Renly not Magaery.

I knew it! I asked JHT whether there was any evidence that Margaery was the intended target, but that was just before he left so I didn't get an answer.

[Kival]

Will we necessarily have the same teams? I assume not, so things can happen quite different.

@Kagemusha

Did you use a character as admiral? Anyway, if you "missrolled" it can just happen, that your subjects do different then intended.

[Kagemusha]

If your fleet wasn't led by some authoritative character could easily be reckless soldiers...

Im sure the former Master of Ships for the last Targareyn King would apply as somewhat capable fleet commander. Maybe name Redwyne says something to you?

[Kival]

Im sure the former Master of Ships for the last Targareyn King would apply as somewhat capable fleet commander. Maybe name Redwyne says something to you?

He could still have made a very bad roll (depending on the exact system).

[Arjos]

Then I honestly don't know lol
But he still was a minor character I guess, maybe attacked just because he was confident...
Bottom line I don't see the host changing your orders, it was simply the game, I had very similar troubles...

[Kagemusha]

He could still have made a very bad roll (depending on the exact system).

What rolls have to do with conditions? Condition is for an order to be executed. Roll is for an outcome. Wouldnt you agree?

[Greyblades]

Im sure the former Master of Ships for the last Targareyn King would apply as somewhat capable fleet commander. Maybe name Redwyne says something to you?

Paxter Redwyne? Isn't he in his 70's during the war of five kings?

[Ishmael]

He could still have made a very bad roll (depending on the exact system).

Hence the need for a slight rejig of the system. A capable and experienced admiral, who knows his fleet is outclassed and has explicit orders from his Lord not to engage, shouldn't launch a suicide attack no matter what the dice roll.


Paxter Redwyne? Isn't he in his 70's during the war of five kings?

All the more reason for him to be cautious. :yes:

[Double A]

...Huh, well seeing as we're starting over and theres no way I could ever use it again, I will admit I sent the wine.

Well duh.


Heh, Like I would try wine just after doing it to Magaery. Still, if it makes you feel any batter I was trying to get Renly not Magaery.

What the hell did I ever do to you?

[Kival]

Paxter Redwyne? Isn't he in his 70's during the war of five kings?

Not the man to be too reckless.


Hence the need for a slight rejig of the system. A capable and experienced admiral, who knows his fleet is outclassed and has explicit orders from his Lord not to engage, shouldn't launch a suicide attack no matter what the dice roll.

Yeah, I agree.

[Kagemusha]

Then I honestly don't know lol
But he still was a minor character I guess, maybe attacked just because he was confident...
Bottom line I don't see the host changing your orders, it was simply the game, I had very similar troubles...

In that case you could order to attack the Lannisters and instead your forces would decide to go after Baratheons. :P

[Greyblades]

What the hell did I ever do to you?
If I killed you and successfully pinned it on Stannis half of your forces would have gone over to my side, including most of your fleet and Highgarden would refuse to work with old baldy. Nothing personal.

[Arjos]

Imo it all falls in the unexpected, afaik Redwyne doesn't have stats, other than maybe "adds X to Y of Mace Tyrell"...


In that case you could order to attack the Lannisters and instead your forces would decide to go after Baratheons. :P

LOL that's too much :D
You gave orders to engage, he simply didn't wait for some reason: the execution was different, but still "followed" the order...
Also maybe the Greyjoys sent some ships to delay Stannis, bad winds to get there or something that ruined your course of actions...

[Kival]

In that case you could order to attack the Lannisters and instead your forces would decide to go after Baratheons. :P


If you have a betraying commander that could happen. Yes. But what happened is more a failure and not a betrayal.

[Secura]

while those who were worst off demand a do-over.

I'd just like to interject and say that it isn't the fact that Dragonstone came out of that phase in poor shape that resulted in me asking for a do-over, rather the fact that Beskar had dropped from the game as a player in order to take over as game host. Heck, the outcome of Melisandre's actions for the second phase were pretty dire (to the point where she should have just stayed in bed for the duration, seriously), but I was prepared to take it in stride and continue as normal without complaint.

The problem for Dragonstone was that Beskie called the shots in terms of faction orders, had all the diplomatic ties and knew the lore better than the rest of his team put together; it didn't feel fair for the remainder of our team to have to cope with these disadvantages in addition to the fallout from the diplomacy/military choices he made for that turn, and so I suggested we revert back to the start of the phase.

I'd like to thank JHT for his input and particularly his efforts with my own results over the two phases (even the unsuccessful ones! :P); he perfectly encapsulated both my character and the way that her magic and influence worked, something that I was able to use to draw myself further into the game. I hope that your absence is not permanent JHT, you still have an awesome mafia concept to use. :3

[Kagemusha]

Imo it all falls in the unexpected, afaik Redwyne doesn't have stats, other than maybe "adds X to Y of Mace Tyrell"...

You cant be serious.:P You are ready to make bold assumptions when you dont know the conditions.Mace Tyrell, Willas Tyrell, Randyll Tarly and Paxter Redwyne were all at Old Town with clear cut split of command for each, just to make sure no mishaps would happen.

As we did not get an description of what exactly happen.I will not join you in making hypothesis about the unknown. Maybe next time we will have better luck, or maybe you are just referring that because the Tyrell characters must be so inferior to begin with.They should not be able to get anything done right? :P

[scottishranger]

Kage I think that your admiral did all that he was required to do. In our results post it says that instead of waiting to be enveloped in a pincer movement, my Iron Fleet instead sailed straight at you (I guess we had advance warning of Stannis) and took the fight to avoid being attacked on both sides until you were routed, then we turned on Stannis

[Arjos]

No no no XD
House Tyrell was my third choice and still is :)
What I'm saying is that what differed was the execution, that happened to me both turns, it's how the game goes, otherwise it's all about coin tosses between two playable factions...
But you are right about the stats and that we can't be certain, but at the same time you are forgetting the influence of the enemy or whatever variables JHT put into it...

Edit: so in the end the Greyjoys attacked and Redwyne, as the good admiral that he is, was compelled to engage instead of being a sitting target...

[Double A]

If I killed you and successfully pinned it on Stannis half of your forces would have gone over to my side, including most of your fleet and Highgarden would refuse to work with old baldy. Nothing personal.

Wait...

I have a fleet?

[Kagemusha]

Kage I think that your admiral did all that he was required to do. In our results post it says that instead of waiting to be enveloped in a pincer movement, my Iron Fleet instead sailed straight at you (I guess we had advance warning of Stannis) and took the fight to avoid being attacked on both sides until you were routed, then we turned on Stannis

My fleet was behind old town upriver.Where it had been most of the time and it was ordered to stay there until you were engaged with the other force.So i doubt you guys sailed through old town to fight my navy. ;)

[scottishranger]

Ah well that is odd haha. Maybe they went out a bit to early I guess and we took advantage of it. I am suprised the losses on both sides were so low though! I expected more

[Double A]

I expected to know what the losses were.

Kage, can you PM me about what the hell happened? Just copypasting the relevant stuff from your orders would probably be good enough, maybe with some commentary if it doesn't make sense.

[Kagemusha]

I expected to know what the losses were.

Kage, can you PM me about what the hell happened? Just copypasting the relevant stuff from your orders would probably be good enough, maybe with some commentary if it doesn't make sense.

Il pm you. Though i dont even know what the losses of Ironborn were. :)

[Greyblades]

Wait...

I have a fleet?

You dont? Huh, I guess it was pointless after all.

[Beskar]

For those interested in playing this setting and genre again, but restarted with some major changes, please sign up here:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?139628-Game-of-Thrones-Sign-up&p=2053410254#post2053410254

As for the Navy results, this is what John said to me.

Basically the two blockades being cleared by Highgarden meant that most of the Greyjoy orders were unusable in their current form, and attempting to do most of what they wanted in the timescale led to their navy arriving at the Whispering Sound at virtually the same time yours did. Had I left the Highgarden navy at port, you would have been defeated, probably, and the end result would have been an assault on Highgarden, which probably would have failed but still done more damage than what transpired. Your intent was to join up with Highgarden, the Highgarden spies knew both navies where approaching at approx the same time and attempted to meet up with you. Rolls on all three admirals skill to determine what happened led to a strong Greyjoy advantage so they were able to meet both groups seperately and fight two battles as the larger force, rather than one as the smaller. The damage to your fleet and the Tyrells was relatively light, and you were actually in a strong position, with the new Tyrell shiips mext phase you would have smashed through the blockade.

[Montmorency]

It should be safe to post the losses in this thread, at least. Everyone knows that Greys and Tyrells have many ships, so the loss figures alone won't really be compromising in any way.

[Beskar]

You dont? Huh, I guess it was pointless after all.

Double A had a caravel and 5 cogs... I have to admit, the fleet was a big joke, considering even I had 2 carracks, 5 caravels and 10 cogs. (with Saan joining mine on a delay with 5 carracks and 10 caravels)

[Kagemusha]

For those interested in playing this setting and genre again, but restarted with some major changes, please sign up here:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?139628-Game-of-Thrones-Sign-up&p=2053410254#post2053410254

As for the Navy results, this is what John said to me.


Thanks for the information. Now that i know what caused it.It is more easy to understand what happened. In any case like JHT mentioned in his post. I was about to go all Soviet Union on the Ironborn in naval warfare. ;)

[Greyblades]

Double A had a caravel and 5 cogs... I have to admit, the fleet was a big joke, considering even I had 2 carracks, 5 caravels and 10 cogs. (with Saan joining mine on a delay with 5 carracks and 10 caravels)
...Oh man I wish I knew that sooner, 1000 gold would have given me enough wildfire and ships to totally blow yours out of the water.

[Double A]

You dont? Huh, I guess it was pointless after all.

Do you see a major port in my lands? No. You don't. So what the hell would I need ships for?

[Greyblades]

Do you see a major port in my lands? No. You don't. So what the hell would I need ships for?
I dont know, what I needed was afew more ships to break stannis' blockade and assumed you had afew, also your lands would have helped pay off the iron bank.

[Kagemusha]

...Oh man I wish I knew that sooner, 1000 gold would have given me enough wildfire and ships to totally blow yours out of the water.

One thing which should be looked into would be the balance of land and naval forces.Also the cost for rebuilding them. I doubled my fleet last turn and was prepared to outproduce the ironborn no matter how many they would sink. At least they could not replace the marines so easily.

[Beskar]

It should be safe to post the losses in this thread, at least. Everyone knows that Greys and Tyrells have many ships, so the loss figures alone won't really be compromising in any way.


The battle of Whispering Sound:


7 carracks, 16 caravels, 37 cogs = 318 = 12
6350 foot, 1050 archers

VS

28 Longships, 790 foot, 630 archers and 10 cavalry = 300 = 15

Inconclusive Iron fleet victory.


Stannis Baratheon comes from the south east, Highgarden fleet from north east. Iron fleet from north west. Highgarden fleet is intercepted and damaged heavily, forcing it to return to Oldtown. Iron Fleet moves to attack Stannis navy and wins inconclusive victory, attempts to prevent his fleet meeting up with Tyrells at Highgarden, but fails. Blockade of Whispering Sound restarted.

Casualties:
Highgarden - 3 carracks damaged, 6 caravels damaged, 7 cogs damaged, 6 sunk. 750 foot lost, 50 archers lost.
Stannis - 1 carrack damaged, 3 caravels damaged, 5 cogs sunk. 250 foot lost, 100 archers, 5 cavalry lost.

Ironborn - 4 longships damaged, 50 foot lost, 25 archers lost.

[Ishmael]

Particularly the construction times of fleets should be looked into. As Kage says, even if the Iron Fleet had totally destroyed ours we could just rebuild it in a single turn, which doesn't really seem fair. Of course, we faced the same risk that once we had destroyed their fleet, we couldn't disband our own because it could just be zombified at a relatively minor cost. I suggest that either cost to construct or time to construct (or both) for ships should be increased, and maybe new ships should have a penalty to performance due to having inexperienced crews.

[Arjos]

Well easy now with the figures, we don't want everyone to know the other's forces :D

[Montmorency]

Wow, and I was under the impression that one could only build one ship per turn.

How much money were you guys in anyway?

[Greyblades]

I had 10,000 at start.

[Montmorency]

5000. I won't tell you my starting force, however. :smartass:

[LazyMcCrow]

*cough* game of thrones (http://www.shutupshow.com/post/13749333915/review-a-game-of-thrones)

[scottishranger]

Well easy now with the figures, we don't want everyone to know the other's forces :D

Agreed! The Ironborn would rather that info not come out haha

[Double A]

What about my crap?


I dont know, what I needed was afew more ships to break stannis' blockade and assumed you had afew, also your lands would have helped pay off the iron bank.

I doubt it would've made much of an impact. I think I'm the poorest faction, although that may be Stannis. The only redeeming qualities of House Baratheon are Renly, his claim, the other characters (who are probably or definitely outclassed by at least 2 others, depending on the person), and an almost guaranteed alliance with the Tyrells.

[Greyblades]

Eh, if it worked your side would have shattered, if it didnt it would have alienated stannis from highgarden+renly. Add to that a little to none cost and it seemed like a pretty smart plan.

[Double A]

Well, considering I could have just asked Stannis to swear on his word if he killed Margaery or not, and no Dornishman would EVER send someone wine from the Arbor, your plan was about as full-proof as the Maginot Line.

[Arjos]

Yeah, as I said, the only one with a motive was Tywin, had the game continued I'm 100% all Houses would have eventually marched on Casterly :P

[Ishmael]

Eh, if it worked your side would have shattered, if it didnt it would have alienated stannis from highgarden+renly. Add to that a little to none cost and it seemed like a pretty smart plan.

As I say, we were planning on blaming you even though we weren't sure that you did it - it would have just given us more ammunition in winning, say, the Riverlands to our cause.

[Greyblades]

Well, considering I could have just asked Stannis to swear on his word if he killed Margaery or not, and no Dornishman would EVER send someone wine from the Arbor, your plan was about as full-proof as the Maginot Line.

No you couldnt, you'd be dead or too peeved off to think straight and I was under no illusion that you'd think it was from Doran. And no I wasnt expecting for highgarden to sit back, why do you think I attempted to invade?

[Double A]

1) Stannis would have just sent a shadow of doom after me if he was worried.
2) Stannis was working with us the turn of the wedding, only a lunatic or a literal retard would try to assassinate someone while at the mercy of his enemy.
3) Your other plans all have failed horribly. Patterns are not to be ignored.

[Montmorency]

Ah, one thing I noticed that my 'RP' of Doran was the exact opposite of his true character. I suppose I'll set that right this time. :tongue:

[Greyblades]

1) Stannis would have just sent a shadow of doom after me if he was worried.
2) Stannis was working with us the turn of the wedding, only a lunatic or a literal retard would try to assassinate someone while at the mercy of his enemy.
3) You suck at being Tywin.
1. Yes, you're right I should have just used the red priest I had to pretend to be Stannis and-oh wait.
2. Yeah, I know, you working with him was obvious from the get go. Heck, I was surprised you and higarden hadnt attacked already.
3. Dont let this get personal.

[Double A]

I'm tired due to a combination of Italian food and Rick Steeves, realized this shortly after posting, and edited it to some extent.

Anyway, it was really freakin' obvious that you were behind it.

[Secura]

1) Stannis would have just sent a shadow of doom after me if he was worried.

Upon asking him about the scope of the character, JHT told myself and Beskar that Renly's death at the hands of Melisandre's conjuration was one of his most disliked moments in the series. As a result, he said that I wouldn't be able to do that against the main roles, though my chances of succeeding against lesser roles (he loosely hinted at Penrose, given that he's also killed by Melisandre) were much more favourable.

That was fine by me, although it feels a bit lacklustre when you consider how easy it was for the Lannisters to poison your wine in comparison to what Melisandre would have had to do if I had wanted you dead.

[Greyblades]

3) Your other plans all have failed horribly. Patterns are not to be ignored.
Which plans? Capturing Eddard's the only one I can think of and that was ruined by a NPC.

[Kagemusha]

No you couldnt, you'd be dead or too peeved off to think straight and I was under no illusion that you'd think it was from Doran. And no I wasnt expecting for highgarden to sit back, why do you think I attempted to invade?

And i always was wondering from the start that you did not try to do any kind of pact with us. Maybe you just had locked the idea that tyrells need to be destroyed?

[Greyblades]

I had locked the idea that Renly needed to be destroyed and there was no way you would side with me as long as he lived, also the iron bank was asking for 1500 a turn so I was in a rush to acquire enough lands to sustain that without becoming bankrupt.

[Kagemusha]

I had locked the idea that Renly needed to be destroyed and there was no way you would side with me as long as he lived, also the iron bank was asking for 1500 a turn so I was in a rush to acquire enough lands to sustain that without becoming bankrupt.

And Tyrell´s would have been the easiest to pick? You know i was completely neutral before last turn. Had you not put Ironborn attack us.We would not have had anything against you. :P

[Greyblades]

Yeah well the iron born thing was an utter cockup on my end, initially I was to pay them about 100 a turn to blockade oldtown if we went to war, keep you occupied while I picked off Renly, unfortunately I am not the best communicator and Stranger didnt understand the "if we went to war" part and attacked immediately.

[Double A]

Upon asking him about the scope of the character, JHT told myself and Beskar that Renly's death at the hands of Melisandre's conjuration was one of his most disliked moments in the series. As a result, he said that I wouldn't be able to do that against the main roles, though my chances of succeeding against lesser roles (he loosely hinted at Penrose, given that he's also killed by Melisandre) were much more favourable.

That was fine by me, although it feels a bit lacklustre when you consider how easy it was for the Lannisters to poison your wine in comparison to what Melisandre would have had to do if I had wanted you dead.

It's completely ridiculous. Roughly 50-100 people knew where the wedding was, and at least half were escorts. With the intrigue level that Renly has, the cunning of Margaery, and the vigilance of Brienne, ya'd think that at least one one of them would have thought something was up when Doran Martell sent Arbor wine to the secret wedding location.


Which plans? Capturing Eddard's the only one I can think of and that was ruined by a NPC.

Exactly?

I dunno, but regardless, it was really damn obvious.


I had locked the idea that Renly needed to be destroyed and there was no way you would side with me as long as he lived, also the iron bank was asking for 1500 a turn so I was in a rush to acquire enough lands to sustain that without becoming bankrupt.

I was neutral. NEUTRAL. The only person I don't want on the throne is Joff, and that's because his brain is the size of a walnut.

Most of my land is mountainous or forested, and the waters are far too stormy for a decent fishing industry. How did you expect my lands to help you? Or even go over to you?

[Greyblades]

Quite simple really, your faction had no heirs or relatives beyond stannis, if I killed you your faction would end and your retainers would join the remaining baratheons, and seeing as Stannis was implicated as responsable all of your retainers aside for the most diehard lannister haters would go to joffrey.
As for the land, well another recruiting ground would be nice and your forces would have made taking Highgarden easy, which is the real monemaker.

[Double A]

I think you should give Blacky and Khazaar a BIT more credit. :tongue:

[Kagemusha]

Quite simple really, your faction had no heirs or relatives beyond stannis, if I killed you your faction would end and your retainers would join the remaining baratheons, and seeing as Stannis was implicated as responsable all of your retainers aside for the most diehard lannister haters would go to joffrey.
As for the land, well another recruiting ground would be nice and your forces would have made taking Highgarden easy, which is the real monemaker.

Sure.piece of cake.

[Greyblades]

It's completely ridiculous. Roughly 50-100 people knew where the wedding was, and at least half were escorts. With the intrigue level that Renly has, the cunning of Margaery, and the vigilance of Brienne, ya'd think that at least one one of them would have thought something was up when Doran Martell sent Arbor wine to the secret wedding location.
Huh thats wierd, my orders were:

5. Varys will provide a forger and a craftsman who make wax stamps who has less than exepilary morals, Maester Pycell will provide samples every wax seal and letter sent to Robert that he has kept over the years, he should have at least one example from each major lord, and Tywin will aquire a barrel of the finest Dornish wines from Robert's old wine Cellar, I am assuming he'd have left some undrunk. Tywin's own Maester will provide some Strangler crystals.
With all this I will give the Forger some of Doran Martell's and Stannis' letters as examples and order him to make out two letters in each person's handwriting. One from Doran saying the wine is a wedding present, wishing well the marriage etc.
The second will be in Stannis' handwriting giving orders to deliver the wine and Doran's letter to Storm's end with explicit instructions for the bearer not to let anyone drink the wine before it is delivered and that they will be paid twice as much if after delivering the wine and letters they go to Griffin's roost and present Stannis' letter to the lord. While he is doing that I will have the craftsman make stamps that will reproduce the seals of every lord that has sent letters to KL and one blank stamp. With the letters ready Tywin will seal Doran's letter with the copy of Doran's stamp and a wax that can pass off as Dorn's wax, he will seal Stannis' letter with the Blank stamp with black wax.
With that ready he will give the wine and letters to the most loyal Lannister soldier who is not well known enough to be recognised, (i.e. no named character) who will dress in Baratheon colours, go down the road to Storms end and wait at the border for a Trader heading to Storms end, preferably not a local. He will Pass on the wine, the letters, instructions to only open the unmarked letter and a 50 gold advance to get it done. After that I cannot plan but hopefully it will end in Renly or Margery dying at thier wedding.
Maybe that merchant got really lucky.


Sure.piece of cake.
Well maybe easy is a bit of an exaggeration but easier than I would otherwise expect, especially if I had the baratheon troops pretend to be defecting to you and then stab you in the back later.

[Double A]

The wedding was at Summer Hall. How that succeeded I will never know. You must have rolled a natural 100 on a D20.

[Montmorency]

Woah, you paid 50 gold? That's an army of 10000!

[Greyblades]

Honestly I had enough to afford the expense and it's pretty cheap price to pay if it took out Renly, I was hoping the money would provide enough incentive for the trader not to rat me out.

[Montmorency]

With that kind of sum involved, it was an offer he couldn't refuse. :laugh4:

[Double A]

That doesn't explain how a random merchant found out where the wedding was.

[Greyblades]

Search me, I was surprised it worked, I was half expecting the wine to be drunk by a random guard.

[The Stranger]

Nope.That was the unexpected thing. The controversial thing was what the greyjoys probably wondered also what was that. Against our orders to remain upriver oldtown until the forces of Stannis and Renly would engage the Ironborn at Whispering sounds or arrive to Old Town.Our navy decided to peace meal attack them alone when we were just about to have superior odds against them. The whole plan was to lure the Ironborn into trying to stop Stannis from coming into oldtown. Next Stannis then fought them alone after our buts were already kicked.

cuz the game is restarting now i can say this but you never had superiour odds. 1 longship was a strronga as a carrack and we had 30-40 ships at the sound...

[Double A]

That's ridiculous. Longships are the fastest thing in the sea, not the strongest.

I bet they cost less too.

[scottishranger]

Might be ridiculous but it was true haha. Cost as much as a cog and had the power of a carrack.

We woulda crushed you.

[Beskar]

Might be ridiculous but it was true haha. Cost as much as a cog and had the power of a carrack.

We woulda crushed you.

Conflicts with the Lore though. Longships rivalled that of a Caravel, but a Longship could never match a Carrack. I believe in is Dance of the Dragons? but it says how only the Iron fleet has ships which could even touch a carrack, but struggled. Only bested them due to the experience of the crew since they were the Best of the Best.

[The Stranger]

The battle of Whispering Sound:


7 carracks, 16 caravels, 37 cogs = 318 = 12
6350 foot, 1050 archers

VS

28 Longships, 790 foot, 630 archers and 10 cavalry = 300 = 15

Inconclusive Iron fleet victory.


Stannis Baratheon comes from the south east, Highgarden fleet from north east. Iron fleet from north west. Highgarden fleet is intercepted and damaged heavily, forcing it to return to Oldtown. Iron Fleet moves to attack Stannis navy and wins inconclusive victory, attempts to prevent his fleet meeting up with Tyrells at Highgarden, but fails. Blockade of Whispering Sound restarted.

Casualties:
Highgarden - 3 carracks damaged, 6 caravels damaged, 7 cogs damaged, 6 sunk. 750 foot lost, 50 archers lost.
Stannis - 1 carrack damaged, 3 caravels damaged, 5 cogs sunk. 250 foot lost, 100 archers, 5 cavalry lost.

Ironborn - 4 longships damaged, 50 foot lost, 25 archers lost.

WTH/// this is totally crazy. the ironborn ought to have the biggest fleet and the strongest too. the fact that i had so few ships i could live with cuz of their strength but that the tyrells would be able to defeat my full strength fleet... next turn?? and i mean i lost 6 longships wotrh a carrack in a surprise attack but the tyrells just lose 6 cogs in a full naval engagement...??? wth


naval warfare needs a slight fix i think.


all of this no disrespect to JHT. you did great and i was loving it. sad its restarting.

[Double A]

Yeah, it sure does need a fix. Longships are overpowered.

[The Stranger]

Conflicts with the Lore though. Longships rivalled that of a Caravel, but a Longship could never match a Carrack. I believe in is Dance of the Dragons? but it says how only the Iron fleet has ships which could even touch a carrack, but struggled. Only bested them due to the experience of the crew since they were the Best of the Best.

yes but we paid for the strengtrh with our size. and regarding how dropping and picking up soldiers work, id rather have more ships tthan stronger ones. in this case it wouldve meant more victory even cuz i had to leave a significant amount of my fleet in a part to pick up soliders which never came...

[The Stranger]

Yeah, it sure does need a fix. Longships are overpowered.

and the tyrell fleet is oversized. he has like double my numbers... also you could easily replace your entire fleet for me every lost ship was onel ost for good. i could perhaps make 10 more longships before going bankrupt and that means i couldnt pay any upkeep for more turns.

[Montmorency]

and the tyrell fleet is oversized. he has like double my numbers...

And he can apparently replace the whole thing in 1 turn.

[Double A]

and the tyrell fleet is oversized. he has like double my numbers... also you could easily replace your entire fleet for me every lost ship was onel ost for good. i could perhaps make 10 more longships before going bankrupt and that means i couldnt pay any upkeep for more turns.

I'd be fine with more or cheaper longships as long as they aren't as strong as freaking carracks.

[Greyblades]

Personally I was kinda confused by the ships in general, I though westeros used galleys mostly not 2+ mast ocean going ships.

[The Stranger]

Yeah well the iron born thing was an utter cockup on my end, initially I was to pay them about 100 a turn to blockade oldtown if we went to war, keep you occupied while I picked off Renly, unfortunately I am not the best communicator and Stranger didnt understand the "if we went to war" part and attacked immediately.

actually you are wrong there. i did understand that only i had a plan of my own and i wanted to take out the tyrells asap to get naval supremacy on the west coast.

[Kival]

The facts are:

The Ironfleet is nearly 40 longships (as far as I remember), which each carry 1000 men, big. Their banners have hundreds of ships but only small longships, who are used for raiding. In fact the greyjoy fleet is nearly as strong as all fleets of the other Houses together, but that's just as it is. THe greyjoys lack catapults and rams for their ships though.

Building ships should not be too fast.

[Beskar]

yes but we paid for the strengtrh with our size. and regarding how dropping and picking up soldiers work, id rather have more ships tthan stronger ones. in this case it wouldve meant more victory even cuz i had to leave a significant amount of my fleet in a part to pick up soliders which never came...


I'd be fine with more or cheaper longships as long as they aren't as strong as freaking carracks.

That is an issue which will be solved. The whole Naval system is getting worked upon. Ships are going to end up dying and they are going to be a pain to replace, especially Carracks. The advantage the Greyjoys have is they can field bigger numbers and just swarm the bigger ships and far easier for them to manufacture and cheaper to keep afloat, which are their effective advantages.

[Ishmael]

So will they suffer in narrow straits, where their manoeuvrability will be impeded?

[The Stranger]

a 1000 men on their longship wtf.. thats insanely much.

but ye anyway i dont think my fleet was overly strong compared to tyrells now that i see what happened. definitly if he was just so rich he could buy everything back in 1 turn. im also dissapointed my fleet didnt smash through and burned down the harbor...

i had forseen stannis his betrayal but i just couldnt account for everything. also the surpirse attacks of the tyrells was the best thing that happened to them and it wasnt even planned. i mean how can i make orders and run a fleet if i have to take into account how my opponents behave and npcs (host) i know nothing about :S

[The Stranger]

That is an issue which will be solved. The whole Naval system is getting worked upon. Ships are going to end up dying and they are going to be a pain to replace, especially Carracks. The advantage the Greyjoys have is they can field bigger numbers and just swarm the bigger ships and far easier for them to manufacture and cheaper to keep afloat, which are their effective advantages.

dont forget about size :P

[Kival]

I'm not sure how it was in John's game, but nearly each small House on coast has a small war galley or something similar too, so calling the banners for lannisters and tyrells should bring also some nice amount of ships (though only minor ones).

[Arjos]

So will they suffer in narrow straits, where their manoeuvrability will be impeded?

Ahm, I speak thinking about Vikings, Liburni and any other people with small vessels in history: one thing they don't lack or gets impaired is manuverability...

[Ishmael]

Well if you cram a lot of small, agile longships into a narrow strait and send heavily armoured ships with catapults and the like at them, there will only be one outcome. Out on the open sea it's a whole different story, of course.

[The Stranger]

is there a possibility of gettign some intervention during battles? i mean its humanly impossible to account for every situation. i had faction orders of about 3,500 words but still many things that were vital i couldnt control :S

this could perhaps happen on that monday, where the faction gets the chance to react to some things that happen? or would that be too much :P

[Montmorency]

Make the game real-time.

:cool:

[Kival]

The facts are:

The Ironfleet is nearly 40 longships (as far as I remember), which each carry 1000 men, big. Their banners have hundreds of ships but only small longships, who are used for raiding. In fact the greyjoy fleet is nearly as strong as all fleets of the other Houses together, but that's just as it is. THe greyjoys lack catapults and rams for their ships though.

Building ships should not be too fast.

Wiki entry:

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Longship#note-RaCoK24


Longships, are used as fast raiding ships in see and land. They can travel twice as swiftly as a merchant cog[5] and carry about 1,000 men, specifically a hundred feet long longship would have about fifty oarsmen and room for about a 100 men on the deck.[6]

Clash of Kings, Chapter 24, p. 379 (us paperback):

About a new build ship, not the largest ship (Balons ship and Victarions ship beeing bigger e.g.)


hundred feet long ....deck enough for hundred men...

Also described as very fast.

Here's an answer of the author directly towards that question:

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Re_Greyjoy_Fleet/

So, after reread I need to correct my former posting:

Greyjoys have smaller but fast ships, are not lacking rams (only catapults) but they have really hell of a lot of them and the lord's vessels are comparitively bigger.

[The Stranger]

also did the tyrells break both the oldtown and the mander blockade? how did they do that? there were not supposed to be ships there since i took the shield islands :O

[Arjos]

Well if you cram a lot of small, agile longships into a narrow strait and send heavily armoured ships with catapults and the like at them, there will only be one outcome. Out on the open sea it's a whole different story, of course.

Point is the crammed ones would be the large vessels...


also did the tyrells break both the oldtown and the mander blockade? how did they do that? there were not supposed to be ships there since i took the shield islands :O

Think that's Stannis and Renly doing...

[The Stranger]

Wiki entry:

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Longship#note-RaCoK24



Clash of Kings, Chapter 24, p. 379 (us paperback):

About a new build ship, not the largest ship (Balons ship and Victarions ship beeing bigger e.g.)



Also described as very fast.

Here's an answer of the author directly towards that question:

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Re_Greyjoy_Fleet/

So, after reread I need to correct my former posting:

Greyjoys have smaller but fast ships, are not lacking rams (only catapults) but they have really hell of a lot of them and the lord's vessels are comparitively bigger.

the wiki entry is weird i read it before. its prolly a typo 1000 troops is way too much and 100 seems much more likely. its roughly the number john let me transport safely as well. so that was fine only problem was i had so damn few of themso i ahd to split off way too many ships to pick up soldiers which never came... which meant that my fleet was only at 28 ships instead of 40.

[Montmorency]

Everyone would be crammed.

Also, catapults.

[Ishmael]

Point is the crammed ones would be the large vessels...

Well they would both be crammed, but the larger vessels would have the advantage in that type of fighting.

The Stranger, our orders were just to break the Oldtown blockade, but our results suggest we broke two of them. I'm not 100 % sure.

[The Stranger]

oh well im off to bed... :P

[Double A]

Greyjoy are Zerg, everyone else is Protoss.

[Arjos]

Well they would both be crammed, but the larger vessels would have the advantage in that type of fighting.

If you are protecting a strait, your ships are already crammed and incapacitated: the small vessels in such tactical scenario have already won without engaging, all they need to do it to keep the blockade...
Leaving the strait to fight gives again the edge to the small vessels...
Only solution would be to "capture" the small ones locked in a strait...

[Kival]

the wiki entry is weird i read it before. its prolly a typo 1000 troops is way too much and 100 seems much more likely.

I think it's 1000 ships, not troops, though that's insane too!


its roughly the number john let me transport safely as well. so that was fine only problem was i had so damn few of themso i ahd to split off way too many ships to pick up soldiers which never came... which meant that my fleet was only at 28 ships instead of 40.

You should have waited for your banners ;-).

[Double A]

OH NO ONLY 28 CARRACKS WHATEVER SHALL I DO

[White_eyes:D]

I was thinking of a EU3 HRE mechanic for the Iron throne...I found it weird that there was really no blow back after Joffrey murdered Ned. In a feudal system nobles would get nervous about a child who has not even been officially crowned murdering the king's regent without a trial if not outright rebel because of it. And then there was the "Second Greyjoy Rebellion" and the Lannisters didn't even declare war to restore authority to the Iron throne, even when the Riverlands would have bended the knee had he done so.(Greyblades drop the ball there, a whole kingdom was right there for him)


A mechanic like that would give incentive to keep the status quo and try to stay on top. If it adds unnecessary problems don't do it though.

[Greyblades]

And then there was the "Second Greyjoy Rebellion" and the Lannisters didn't even declare war to restore authority to the Iron throne, even when the Riverlands would have bended the knee had he done so.(Greyblades drop the ball there, a whole kingdom was right there for him)

The problem was I kinda paid them to do it. Also far as I knew at the time the greyjoys were the only ones with a fleet that could beat the combined forces of Stannis and Highgarden, which I thought was inevitable, declaring war on them seemed counter-productive. Still I'll know better next time :evilgrin:

[Arjos]

I found it weird that there was really no blow back after Joffrey murdered Ned.

Oh yes, no coronation was so peculiar in this game XD

[Greyblades]

Heh, funny story :sweatdrop:
With all my attention on repositioning my forces, trying to anticipate eddard's escape and generaly being a troll to Stannis... I forgot.

[White_eyes:D]

The problem was I kinda paid them to do it. Also far as I knew at the time the greyjoys were the only ones with a fleet that could beat the combined forces of Stannis and Highgarden, which I thought was inevitable, declaring war on them seemed counter-productive. Still I'll know better next time :evilgrin:

I honestly thought that your plan was to have the Greyjoys to attack the Riverlands and then have them sue for peace with me.

Imagine my surprise when Edmure accused me of working with the Greyjoy's....I was thinking "Tywin you..:daisy:".

I saw that it wasn't part of your plan when the Greyjoys finally spilled the beans on why they attacked(for money).
I pretty much freaked out when I was told that and told him to keep silent about it as it would only make it look worse to the Tully's.:laugh4:

[Greyblades]

I still dont know why they did it, it sure wasnt my idea.

[Double A]

Why didn't Theon die?

[Kival]

Why didn't Theon die?

Starks are too weak-hearted.

[Captain Blackadder]

I still dont know why they did it, it sure wasnt my idea.

Oh your were working with Riverrun that is why I got the response I did when we sent out a possible idea of killing the mountain.

[Greyblades]

Uh... no I wasnt working with riverrun. They were as pissed at us about eddard as the starks were.

[White_eyes:D]

Starks are too weak-hearted.
I would think sending Theon to the wall is a fate worse then death personally.:shrug:

@Greyblades: Riverrun was just looking for back-up, had you put pressure on them they would have caved.... you would have needed to declare war on the Greyjoys before we did but by that point the Greyjoys were attacking Stannis and the Highgarden forces anyway. You could have wiped out 3-4 rival Kingdoms by taking advantage of my diplomatic blunder with the Tully's.:book:

[Kival]

I would think sending Theon to the wall is a fate worse then death personally.:shrug:

You did that? Was it announced publically?

[White_eyes:D]

You did that? Was it announced publically?
I would not have said anything but I assume John would have mentioned it with Cat going to the wall and all.(I also wanted her to hate on Jon for no reason while there):bounce:

[Greyblades]

Cat was going to the wall?

@Greyblades: Riverrun was just looking for back-up, had you put pressure on them they would have caved.... you would have needed to declare war on the Greyjoys before we did but by that point the Greyjoys were attacking Stannis and the Highgarden forces anyway. You could have wiped out 3-4 rival Kingdoms by taking advantage of my diplomatic blunder with the Tully's. I honestly hadn't thought of that, though I'm pretty sure if I tried you would have come up with some way out of it.

[White_eyes:D]

My first knee jerk reaction was to declare war on the Tully's for accusing Robb of working with the Greyjoy's. I knew that it would look really bad to declare war on your allies even for an insult such as that though.:mean:

I had no counters in place and I knew I couldn't declare war on the Lannister's until it was straighten out.(They're not going to let a believed hostile army pass through)

If you had sent some "spy's" out, I am sure it would have show this. Didn't you find it weird Robb didn't declare war after Ned was killed? Usually is a sign something has gone wrong and that something for the Starks was the Riverlands.:grin2:

[Kagemusha]

cuz the game is restarting now i can say this but you never had superiour odds. 1 longship was a strronga as a carrack and we had 30-40 ships at the sound...

In reality it is not. The host made a huge error with your faction, based on typo on the wiki of ice and fire. The number should be 100 men compared to 1000. :P There are several mentionings that the Ironborn have a huge amount of ships, but they are smaller then war galleys and carracks. The largest are about 100 meters long and only few meters wide, so good luck cramping 1000 marines to those.

This is one of those issues that need some work.

[johnhughthom]

Can I make a request here guys?

I have decided I won't be returning to the Gameroom due to the behaviour of a number of players towards myself over the course of this game, though I have told Beskie I'll help him with his reboot. Reading through this I am getting a lot of criticism for "errors" and such like, which are completely incorrect. I would like to request that this thread is closed please, and that the players in the reboot try to have a little more respect for the host when they have an issue with the game, there is nothing wrong with taking issue with the decisions made in a game, but there are ways of doing it.

[Ishmael]

Truly JHT, we all greatly appreciate your fantastic work. I apologise if any of my or others' comments have come across as offensive, but at the moment we're just trying to give constructive criticism to our new host, to help make your concept as good as it can be. It goes to show how engrossed we got in this game that we got genuinely upset when things went poorly, and I apologise if I was rude at any point because of this.

[atheotes]

Can I make a request here guys?

I have decided I won't be returning to the Gameroom due to the behaviour of a number of players towards myself over the course of this game, though I have told Beskie I'll help him with his reboot. Reading through this I am getting a lot of criticism for "errors" and such like, which are completely incorrect. I would like to request that this thread is closed please, and that the players in the reboot try to have a little more respect for the host when they have an issue with the game, there is nothing wrong with taking issue with the decisions made in a game, but there are ways of doing it.

I am truly saddened by this. I am sure all the players have great respect for the amount of time and energy you have put in to host this game. Poor behaviors towards you might just be due to the fact they are deeply engrossed in the world you have set up for us. I am not condoning the behavior, far from it, just hoping that you would see it in that light and not stay away from the gameroom. :bow:

[Jarema]

I want to thank you JHT as well. It was a really good game while it lasted

[johnhughthom]

Truly JHT, we all greatly appreciate your fantastic work. I apologise if any of my or others' comments have come across as offensive, but at the moment we're just trying to give constructive criticism to our new host, to help make your concept as good as it can be. It goes to show how engrossed we got in this game that we got genuinely upset when things went poorly, and I apologise if I was rude at any point because of this.

Thanks Ishmael (and everyone else), and I would point out that any constructive criticism given to me was always taken as such, I had many discussions with players over subjects we were on totally different levels regarding, and always took the time to put my side across and listen to the players, more often than not coming to some sort of compromise. I understand that the players got deeply involved, and overlooked certain comments because of this, but the weight of criticism, 9 times out of 10 because of events the players were unaware of (which was stressed by myself many times), became far too much. Sitting at my computer for 12 hours straight, trying to make order of extensive orders from many factions, then trying to put up brief outlines to be padded out with detail later, only to be told my effort were "crap" (to the relevant player, in no way is this aimed at you, simply a constant stream of comments that ate away at my confidence and motivation to host the game came to a head at that point). The vast majority of the comments in the QTs were edited almost immediately, clearly they were said in the heat of the moment and the players realised that they were unfair, and more than one player did apologise for something they said, which was appreciated, but I saw most of them and it's not nice to put something together for the enjoyment of others and come across such posts.

Anyway, I just wanted to make clear that I have nothing against any player, there were definite issues with the game, most notably naval strengths and the fact that standing armies were much too strong in comparision with calling up sworn houses. Though I would like to point out that at no stage did I say the game was based exactly on GRRM's lore, this was an alternate history, not an interactive history. :wink:

Good luck with the new game guys, and play nice. Now Beskie gets to host the game with the problems ironed out, and I'll be the guy who ragequit (well, sadquit) because his game sucked... :laugh4:

[Secura]

I'm going to close the thread as per johnhughthom's request, but I think that there is something that needs to be said first.

I have only been a member of the Org for two years, drawn here by the promise of a strong mafia community, a promise that was not only delivered but exceeded tenfold. Even when my passion for mafia has waned, I've always held the opinion that the Gameroom epitomises the kind of community that we want to foster at the Org; there's a strong sense of respect and camaraderie among the patrons in this little corner of the site, regardless of whether you're new to forum gaming or one of those old timers who played GH's Mafia I shortly after the invention of the wheel.

Much of the traffic that comes to the Org still focuses on the Total War series, yet the Gameroom is able to gather 117 people together for a game of mafia, a truly amazing feat for both the local moderator team and the player base. Capo IV may not have been the best game of mafia I've seen in my time at the Org, but it was a real joy to behold just how welcoming our community was to the large influx of new members, many of whom have opted to hang around as a result. You all earned yourselves a pat on the back with that one.

Hosting is an extremely time-consuming and stressful process, during which even the best laid plans can unravel; non-mafia games moreso, as there's a greater degree of freedom in player actions when you're not confined to the structurised style of mafia. When you have a game with such expansive lore and vastly different victory parameters and thus phase orders for each player/faction, you have to realise results are not always going to go your way, whether that is due to a poor roll of the dice or the actions of your fellow players. When that happens, you need to roll with the punches and accept the fact that you have been outwitted or unlucky, rather than venting your displeasure to the host, who only wants you to enjoy their work.

The Gameroom is about fun and community, and no member should ever feel that they have to step away from that because of the actions of others. I only hope that johnhughthom's decision to cease his participation in the Gameroom is not a permanent one, I for one will miss his unique approach to playing.

Let's focus on the reboot now, shall we?