Ukraine-in-a-thread

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

“What if Latin was taught on voluntary basis?” Err, Latin is taught on voluntary basis.

“Still low attendance?” Better than Breton, for sure.

“A good excuse to stop any attempts of helping the weaker languages” To stop any attempts? Err, when and where?

“Any newspapers, TV channels, University courses, books translated, dictionaries published, popularization campaigns or any other activities in those languages to report?” Yeah, universities, newspapers and all the lot. Not really picking-up and without massive subsidies from government, they would have cease to breath. Something else? Well, we can oblige unwilling pupils to learn useless languages, for sure, but you can’t force adults to use them.

I refer you, Brenus, to the plight of the Welsh language - and what has been achieved over the past two decades. The decline of a language, or not, is something a government chooses.

To whit - a people will work in their own language if they are permitted to, if they are not then their children will all by bi-lingual, and their children will not be wholly fluent in their mother tongue. This is a deliberate matter of politics. The phenomenon is well documented over the last two centuries in France, Britain, Germany and Spain. In all four examples there are two subsets to the policy - to elevate the local vulgar speech of the capital (High German, Parisian French, Chancery English, Castillian Spanish) and to subdue the ethnically distinct languages, (Can't think of a German example, Breton, Welsh/Gaelic, Basque).

This is deliberate cultural levelling, it enfranchises a particular cultural or ethnic group and they impose their culture of the country as normative. So, we no longer say "hey" or "yeah" in polite conversation, in English, because those are Norse loan-words from Northern England, not native to the London area.

Now - how does this relate to Ukraine?

Very sharply - and also to Latvia and Estonia. All three countries instituted a "one language" policy when they achieved independence from Russia. This was intended to give Russian a second-class status, Russian speakers (it was hoped) would either acquiesce in being Ukrainian/Estonian/Latvian first and Russian second, or go home to Russia. As it happened, even first generation immigrants imported in the 20 years before the USSR collapsed refused to co-operate, they demanded Russian as a language of state business.

I have a limited a mount of sympathy for these people, given that they never had to learn the language of the country the immigrated to, and they were given preferential treatment as Russians. Their purpose, of course, was to Russify the countries they moved to - make them more like Mother Russia and thus more pliable. Whether the newly sovereign governments should have realised this was all a bad idea is debatable, given that they were essentially following a Soviet model - and I understand Latvia and Estonia have relaxed the rules somewhat now anyway.

Husar - the problem I have with your standpoint is that it doesn't change anything - maybe this is a Greek Tragedy rather than an Action Blockbuster, but Putin is still the villain here - there's no excusing what he's doing now. to my knowledge there was, prior to this, no real separatist movement outside Crimea - unlike the Balkans where the unrest was bubbling up for several years before the US started tweaking things, Putin appears to have generated a lot of this is a matter of moths, even weeks, and he's not accountable to anyone, and Russia is becoming an increasingly terrible place to live.

[Pannonian]

1. I include EU foreign policy in this

2. All I see is whining about how America cannot do what it wants and have everyone cheer for it. Did you think Putin/Russia would applaud your efforts to get yet another NATO member right on his borders? Your argument boils down to America being the lesser evil and that's why we should be happy to be allied to America. My argument is that it's no reason to be happy but maybe to be a little bit less sad. It's almost like some Americans refuse to believe that someone could actually not love their nation and not be an enemy of it. :dizzy2:

I utterly despise those EU officials, like the one Frag's pointed out, who've been cheering on the destabilisation of other countries. At least the Americans can be counted on to do something substantial to back up what they say. Those European leeches raise hell then scuttle away when it's their turn to pay the toll.

[drone]

I just hope the Obama administration and the CIA are taking notes. Putin is putting on a masterclass on turning a crisis into an opportunity.

[rvg]

But if they choose that, what right do we have to stop them? Britain's position on Northern Ireland, Gibraltar, Falklands and all those other places where we're the primary occupying power is based on the principle of self-determination.
Self-determination is a great principle, but not when it's done under the barrel of a gun. If done right and during peace time, then sure.


Do you know any Americans who want the Scots to choose "freedom", as one in the eye for the English?
Personally? No. I personally do not know any Americans who wish Britain to disintegrate. It would be downright stupid to undermine our best friend.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

....Do you know any Americans who want the Scots to choose "freedom", as one in the eye for the English?

Met a few; mostly of the "my grandfather said the English were evil so up the Irish!" Southie barfly type. Any serious folks or substantial numbers who would like to see England "flipped off?" Nope.

They have been our most reliable ally for 7 decades, probably more reliable for us than we have been for them. Not much bad blood left.

[Brenus]

“Self-determination is a great principle, but not when it's done under the barrel of a gun.” Err, good principle, but few implementations. One I think of: separation of Czech for Slovakia. Perhaps there are more, but not that many.

Well, Crimea as well… Sorry…:sweatdrop:

[Pannonian]

Self-determination is a great principle, but not when it's done under the barrel of a gun. If done right and during peace time, then sure.


But if we're willing to back the principle of self-determination, even to the extent of losing a significant chunk of our already small territory, on what grounds do we send in troops to deny others the same? If we say that self-determination shouldn't be done under the barrel of a gun, and send in troops to back this point, then we're using the barrels of our guns too, to enforce the belief that self-determination should not be done under the barrel of a gun. If the US really strongly believes that this is a matter of freedom and democracy and how the process is being perverted, Britain is the wrong country to ask to put back this process, especially in a year when a constituent part of the UK is voting on an issue that you'd like us to deny to whatever parts of the Ukraine.

[rvg]

But if we're willing to back the principle of self-determination, even to the extent of losing a significant chunk of our already small territory, on what grounds do we send in troops to deny others the same?
On the grounds that self-determination requires peaceful referendum that is not marred by violence or electoral fraud.


If we say that self-determination shouldn't be done under the barrel of a gun, and send in troops to back this point, then we're using the barrels of our guns too, to enforce the belief that self-determination should not be done under the barrel of a gun.
We're not denying them self-determination but merely making sure that the process is fair and lawful.


If the US really strongly believes that this is a matter of freedom and democracy and how the process is being perverted, Britain is the wrong country to ask to put back this process, especially in a year when a constituent part of the UK is voting on an issue that you'd like us to deny to whatever parts of the Ukraine.
Understandable. Then again, maybe the farce that took place in Crimea or the fact that Catalonians got the finger from Madrid as far as holding their own referendum, might sway the Scots towards maintaining the union. Either way, the talk of military intervention is a bit premature at this point.

[Pannonian]

On the grounds that self-determination requires peaceful referendum that is not marred by violence or electoral fraud.

We're not denying them self-determination but merely making sure that the process is fair and lawful.

Understandable. Then again, maybe the farce that took place in Crimea or the fact that Catalonians got the finger from Madrid as far as holding their own referendum, might sway the Scots towards maintaining the union. Either way, the talk of military intervention is a bit premature at this point.

When you see all the accusations that the SNP have made about the English, with every non-SNP-affiliated body refuting their claims about a post-Yes Scotland, only to be met by accusations of bias and whatnot, you'll see that the idea of a free and fair referendum has different interpretations around the world. In the recent British experience, free and fair according to the Yessers means an unlimited amount of crap thrown at those who live south of the border, and any response from the latter is an illegitimate intrusion into a purely Scottish process. So going by the Scottish experience, the best thing we can do regarding Ukraine is say that those parts that want a referendum should get one, then stand well clear until there are results. If we do or say anything more, it's the evil oppressive English intruding into what should be a purely Ukrainian matter.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

When you see all the accusations that the SNP have made about the English, with every non-SNP-affiliated body refuting their claims about a post-Yes Scotland, only to be met by accusations of bias and whatnot, you'll see that the idea of a free and fair referendum has different interpretations around the world. In the recent British experience, free and fair according to the Yessers means an unlimited amount of crap thrown at those who live south of the border, and any response from the latter is an illegitimate intrusion into a purely Scottish process. So going by the Scottish experience, the best thing we can do regarding Ukraine is say that those parts that want a referendum should get one, then stand well clear until there are results. If we do or say anything more, it's the evil oppressive English intruding into what should be a purely Ukrainian matter.

Not just me who feels that way, then.

[rvg]

When you see all the accusations that the SNP have made about the English, with every non-SNP-affiliated body refuting their claims about a post-Yes Scotland, only to be met by accusations of bias and whatnot, you'll see that the idea of a free and fair referendum has different interpretations around the world. In the recent British experience, free and fair according to the Yessers means an unlimited amount of crap thrown at those who live south of the border, and any response from the latter is an illegitimate intrusion into a purely Scottish process.
Yet with all that the pro-independence crowd is trailing the unionists by about ten points.


So going by the Scottish experience, the best thing we can do regarding Ukraine is say that those parts that want a referendum should get one, then stand well clear until there are results. If we do or say anything more, it's the evil oppressive English intruding into what should be a purely Ukrainian matter.
Of course, gotta take care of Britain first, then look towards Ukraine.

[Pannonian]

Yet with all that the pro-independence crowd is trailing the unionists by about ten points.

Of course, gotta take care of Britain first, then look towards Ukraine.

There's more to the picture than the Yes campaign losing. The sheer amount and intensity of vitriol directed against the English by the Yes campaign has led to a reciprocal anti-Scottish feeling. Nowhere near as nasty as the Yessers (a No campaigner was roughed up a few weeks back and an SNP spokesperson directed the blame back at her), there is still an exasperation that the English can do no right and can only sit and take it, with the accompanying feeling that, if this is what it takes to keep us united, then maybe we might be better off without the Scots. Quite simply, in their desperation to win the campaign after getting all their facts wrong, the Yessers have sought to poison the England-Scotland relationship. Whatever the result of the referendum, there will probably be a lot of rebuilding work needed, and the stronger partner having been receiving all the crap throughout, may not feel inclined to initiate this.

There might be a lesson in here for Ukraine.

[rvg]

There's more to the picture than the Yes campaign losing. The sheer amount and intensity of vitriol directed against the English by the Yes campaign has led to a reciprocal anti-Scottish feeling. Nowhere near as nasty as the Yessers (a No campaigner was roughed up a few weeks back and an SNP spokesperson directed the blame back at her), there is still an exasperation that the English can do no right and can only sit and take it, with the accompanying feeling that, if this is what it takes to keep us united, then maybe we might be better off without the Scots. Quite simply, in their desperation to win the campaign after getting all their facts wrong, the Yessers have sought to poison the England-Scotland relationship. Whatever the result of the referendum, there will probably be a lot of rebuilding work needed, and the stronger partner having been receiving all the crap throughout, may not feel inclined to initiate this.

Happens here every four years. Half of the country is ready and willing to kill the other half. Dissipates within weeks after the election.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Happens here every four years. Half of the country is ready and willing to kill the other half. Dissipates within weeks after the election.

Except the SNP have been building it for a decade - it's deliberate and it's racism, because they see themselves as ethnically or racially different. The English Democrats get pelted with the term "Racist" and "Fascist" but they're just the result of the SNP mud slinging.

And, in fact, England doesn't need Scotland for anything other than storing Nukes, and if it comes to it we might strike a deal with Norway to use their Fjords.

When your cousin keeps hitting you with a stick and claiming you're not REMOTELY related, you're entitled then to give up at some point.

Edit: Forgot to add, this is also relevant to Ukraine.

However, in this case it's primarily Russia slinging the mud.

[Tuuvi]

You're a very special flower, aren't you? How many topics about European politics ended up as discussions about US politics? But when it's about bringing America's faults into a topic then we should rather not bring America into the topic, eh?

It's all correct regarding the American posters until "so therefore", which should read "so therefore America has the moral highground and all the right in the world to advocate and push for a war against the Russian Federation on European soil.". If you had written that, you'd have represented the stance of some Americans very well. The attempt to wash yourselves clean by saying America is not a direct democracy is really lame by the way.

Why be such a jackass? Maybe my post was stupid and if it was I'd gladly be shown how, but there's no need to call me a "special kind of flower".

Anyways you've misunderstood me. I was not trying to wash "ourselves" clean of anything. What I meant was, a lot of critics of the US on this forum view it as hardly being a democracy at all, until it comes to foreign policy and then the US is a direct democracy so its citizens can be blamed for everything the US has done.

Your use of the word "yourselves" highlights the attitude I was complaining about. You are treating Americans like a collective and I disagree with that. Yes a lot of Americans think the US can do no wrong, but many of the Americans on this forum disapprove of US foreign policy. Attacking people for views they don't even hold doesn't add much to the discussion.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/17/fatal-clashes-ukrainian-military-base

1 dead - shots fired - conflicting reports (sounds like Kiev over-estimated the dead vs the wounded) and nobody's quite sure how well armed the "protesters" were.

So, it's really starting to kick off - because the US is also offering "non lethal" military aid - advisers in body armour are likely on the way.

Edit: Putin's "right" to send troops into Ukraine: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-27065782

I really hate that these people are being made a political football, but I still blame Putin in the end.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/17/fatal-clashes-ukrainian-military-base

1 dead - shots fired - conflicting reports (sounds like Kiev over-estimated the dead vs the wounded) and nobody's quite sure how well armed the "protesters" were.

So, it's really starting to kick off - because the US is also offering "non lethal" military aid - advisers in body armour are likely on the way.

Doubt it. This President will send stuff, money, information...not people (at least until 10 November or so)

[Gilrandir]

You know as well as I, that even though protests originally started as few hundred people were protesting against Yanukovich's decision to abandon a deal with EU but the majority of people later were involved in because they were tired of corruption and poverty. Those protest were hijacked and turned into an anti-Russian/pro-western issue, bringing a different batch of corrupt politicians with a sprinkle of nazis in power. And those militant protesters were responsible for provoking the police, trying to take over government buildings violently and quite likely shot other protesters to incite them to more violence. After a deal was made, the most militant protesters broke it and performed a coup.

Instead of indirect support the west offered, Russia is supporting anti-government protesters directly, either by equipping them or throwing some of their experts in there. It's not just Russian agents, a few dozen armed men can not take control of ten towns and cities without support from local population.

That's not important because of "you did it, too", but to understand that western actions are part of the problem and must also be a part of the solution. The west feels it has got Ukraine now and that's why they've changed their tune from "no one must touch the protesters" from a few months ago to "send tanks against them" now. Even though a more federalized and politically neutral Ukraine would end the conflict, the west is encouraging the Maidan government to crush protesters in the east.

It took a couple of month for peaceful Maidan protests to turn into violent ones. Even then most weapons the protesters had were those of medieval type meant for close melee with policemen.
The protesters in the east are violent from the outset: they primarily (and almost simultaneously) attacked the buildings where they could get weapons - firearms mostly - and distributed them freely around. Moreover, they attacked a military unit permanently deployed in Mariupol (not sent there recently) with a demand "to share weapons", as they put it. The soldiers opened fire, killing one and wounding a dozen.
You were the one to advocate hanging those Nazi Maidan protesters for their violence, but you advocate negotiating with protesters in the east.
You claimed that Maidan did not represent the sentiment of the whole country, so it can't radically change its internal and esternal policy - but you are ready to acknowledge that protesters in the East represent the sentiment of the whole region bent on separating from Ukraine and aligning with Russia.
C'mon, show more consistency.
A curious episode which adds surrealism to the whole picture:
The most pro-Russian candidate for presidency Tsaryov participated in a talk show on TV and when leaving the TV center he was attacked by an angry crowd who threw eggs and zelenka (a bright green antiseptic liquid which is extremely hard to wash away) at him, and then they got their hands on him. Do you know who fended off the mob and accompanied him away? The Right Sector guys. Later that days Tsaryov THANKED the Right Sector for being saved. The curtain.

[Gilrandir]

But if we're willing to back the principle of self-determination, even to the extent of losing a significant chunk of our already small territory, on what grounds do we send in troops to deny others the same?
You don't give the complete name to it: self-determination OF THE NATIONS.
People in the east of Ukraine (as well as in Crimea), unlike Catalans, Basques, Scots, don't form any distinct ethnic unity having their own language and history. Exception is Crimean Tatars but they were (and are) against any separation from Ukraine. So it is ridiculous to discuss self-determination of Donetsk region.

[Sarmatian]

You were the one to advocate hanging those Nazi Maidan protesters for their violence, but you advocate negotiating with protesters in the east.

Politicians, nazis and tycoons, not people.

And not kill, hang them by their private parts. Maybe some would survive. I'm not a monster.


You claimed that Maidan did not represent the sentiment of the whole country, so it can't radically change its internal and esternal policy - but you are ready to acknowledge that protesters in the East represent the sentiment of the whole region bent on separating from Ukraine and aligning with Russia.

And they didn't. Even though I imagine most Ukrainians were, and still are, fed up with corruption, I sincerely doubt most were even thinking about Ukrainian foreign policy at the time. The politicians who came to power tacked that on afterwards, after doing most to equate corruption with Yanukovich and pro-Russian stance, which is patently false, as corruption was just as widespread during Timoshenko.


C'mon, show more consistency.

I'm being consistent. I've said several years ago something like this might happen if Ukraine tries to join NATO. It doesn't get more consistent than that.


A curious episode which adds surrealism to the whole picture:
The most pro-Russian candidate for presidency Tsaryov participated in a talk show on TV and when leaving the TV center he was attacked by an angry crowd who threw eggs and zelenka (a bright green antiseptic liquid which is extremely hard to wash away) at him, and then they got their hands on him. Do you know who fended off the mob and accompanied him away? The Right Sector guys. Later that days Tsaryov THANKED the Right Sector for being saved. The curtain.

And this makes the Right Sector the good guys? That's... rich.


You don't give the complete name to it: self-determination OF THE NATIONS.
People in the east of Ukraine (as well as in Crimea), unlike Catalans, Basques, Scots, don't form any distinct ethnic unity having their own language and history. Exception is Crimean Tatars but they were (and are) against any separation from Ukraine. So it is ridiculous to discuss self-determination of Donetsk region.

So? Nations evolve. A hundred years ago there was no distinction between Germans and Austrians. A few hundred years ago Americans, Canadians and Australians didn't exist. A few hundred more, and there was no distinction between Russians and Ukrainians. Thousand and some years ago, there was no difference between Croats and Serbs. Fifty years ago, Montenegrins didn't exist. 10 years ago, Kosovars didn't exist.

Stuff change.

[Gilrandir]

And this makes the Right Sector the good guys? That's... rich.

Again you jump to your own conclusions: I didn't say who is good and who is bad; I just exemplified how closely and curiously intertwined are the participants of modern Ukrainian politics.


A hundred years ago there was no distinction between Germans and Austrians.
How do you know? They lived in different states and may well have considered themselves distinct peoples. A hundred and fifty years ago Germans themselves were not a unified nation.


Stuff change.
So? Now we can speak of Donetskians? Things do not change so that the nation that didn't exist a month ago suddenly came into being.
As for Balkan nations, I don't know much of how different they are. I always believed that Serbs and Croats are the same people speaking the same language and divided only confessionally. That's what they taught us at Soviet schools.
And as for Montenegrins, if they were not a nation fifty years ago, what was the reason for carving them a separate republic within Yugoslavia?

[Gilrandir]

I'm being consistent. I've said several years ago something like this might happen if Ukraine tries to join NATO. It doesn't get more consistent than that.


I mean consistency in treating any violent protesters equally. Or if you are just violent - oh, well, just stop it, will ya, if you are a violent nazi - you should be hanginig by your PPs?

[Sarmatian]

Again you jump to your own conclusions: I didn't say who is good and who is bad; I just exemplified how closely and curiously intertwined are the participants of modern Ukrainian politics.

Duly noted and understood. It doesn't take a genius to know that Ukrainian policy making at the moment is chaos in its purest form.


How do you know? They lived in different states and may well have considered themselves distinct peoples. A hundred and fifty years ago Germans themselves were not a unified nation.

Because that's how they referred to themselves.


So? Now we can speak of Donetskians? Things do not change so that the nation that didn't exist a month ago suddenly came into being.

No. It takes a bit longer. But, political divisions can create new nations in the long term.

It will stop when we all speak Chinese and look like Brazilians.


As for Balkan nations, I don't know much of how different they are. I always believed that Serbs and Croats are the same people speaking the same language and divided only confessionally. That's what they taught us at Soviet schools.

Sort of.


And as for Montenegrins, if they were not a nation fifty years ago, what was the reason for carving them a separate republic within Yugoslavia?

Political reasons.


I mean consistency in treating any violent protesters equally. Or if you are just violent - oh, well, just stop it, will ya, if you are a violent nazi - you should be hanginig by your PPs?

Not protesters! Protesters are people, who were fed up with corruption and poverty. They are, for the most part, innocent. Their ringleaders need to be hanged - a few selected politicians, nazis and tycoons.

Then you can start building a functioning country. Trust me, we've been through this. We made the mistake of not hanging anyone in 2000 and we're still paying for that.

Ok, I guess those less guilty could be hanged by their thumbs instead.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

You don't give the complete name to it: self-determination OF THE NATIONS.
People in the east of Ukraine (as well as in Crimea), unlike Catalans, Basques, Scots, don't form any distinct ethnic unity having their own language and history. Exception is Crimean Tatars but they were (and are) against any separation from Ukraine. So it is ridiculous to discuss self-determination of Donetsk region.

To give that a little more context "England", while being more homogeneous now than 100 years ago still plays host to at least 3 cultural groups - those primarily descended from Saxons, those from the North and the Cornish down in Cornwall. That's after a sustained campaign of "leveling" that succeeded in wiping out Cornish speakers. There have been some, not many, calling for "the North" of England to break away with Scotland.

There are also lots of English people in Scotland - and Scots in Engalnd, but we're still having a referendum on dissolving the Union.

All of this is academic though - I'm sure the EU would be happy to support referendums in Crimea etc. after a new President is elected. However, it seems the pro-Russian faction is trying to prevent that from happening.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

What are the chances that Putin will receive a message akin to the following:

"We, the undersigned nations of the North Atlantic Alliance, require the return of Crimea to Ukrainian control, a withdrawal of all Russian military forces from Crimea (aside from the Naval base at Sebastopol), and the public repudiation of separatist efforts by Ethnic Russians living in Ukraine. These requests must be complied with no later than the 1st of June, 2014. Failure to comply with these requests will result in a state of war between the NATO alliance and the Russian Federation."

And, if such an ultimatum cannot be made, what -- if anything -- might actually curtail Russia's current expansionism?



My thoughts are that such an ultimatum is not forthcoming, but that anything less will curtail Putin not at all.

[Brenus]

"We, the undersigned nations of the North Atlantic Alliance, require the return of Crimea to Ukrainian control, a withdrawal of all Russian military forces from Crimea (aside from the Naval base at Sebastopol), and the public repudiation of separatist efforts by Ethnic Russians living in Ukraine. These requests must be complied with no later than the 1st of June, 2014. Failure to comply with these requests will result in a state of war between the NATO alliance and the Russian Federation." And will received the same answer that the Russian Federation had after Kosovo... Or Iraq.
Now, in term of politic, that not what you want (war) if you want to pretend to be successful in Afghanistan...

[Kadagar_AV]

If I read this right, Europeans are under forum terms attacking USAnians of accusing Russia for doing just what USA have done all along.

USAnians then read it as defense of Russia, alternatively reading it as two Devils diminishes the whole Devil thingy of it all.


I can assure you, that the vast majority of Europe has grown up during the cold war era. We simply see no white hat cowboys on the international scene. We see USA acting in their best interest, and we see Russia acting in their best interest.

The only difference is that the US propaganda is way more accessible around European parts of the world - It thus also get laughed at a lot more.

This is a English speaking political forum, OF COURSE Europeans will flame USAnians hard for their unfortunate political decisions. You think Europeans on a Russian speaking board (then drawing Europeans from Latvia, Estonia, Slovakia aso will have less of a go on a Russian speaking political forum - on Russians?

We can debate Russia's evil all day here. But what's the point? There's not many Russians around, you know.

Much better us Europeans spend our time dismantling the utterly insane belief USAnians have of being "The Good Guys", on this very specific board - As that is the target audience here.

USAnians have to come to terms with the fact that the more educated western world see you as an absolute disgrace. Not in your intentions, but in the way you allow your leaders to use those good intentions to mold an absolutely insane international political landscape.

USA is of course very young as a nation. Your mother and father countries say: GROW THE **** UP.

I unfortunately believe you absolutely need an actual war on your own soil, before you USAnians understand why. Heck, you live in a world view where a terrorist attack some 10-15 years ago (killing mere thousands) still dictate your politics, because it happened at home. You live in a world where it's something to cry over when some 10 body bags of soldiers gets filled in a day of actual warfare.

I'm not saying it isn't sad when 10 soldiers die.

I am saying that we come from a background where 19k died and 35k were wounded - with 2k missing. In one day of combat.

And that is still only counting the British troops, their allies and the actual opponents (also European) ain't even counted here.

Did we learn from such mistakes? No, it took another damn World War to finally humble our ambitions, not to mention psyche to throw away lives for very vague actual gains.

The US, in comparison, have absolutely no serious history of warfare on home turf. You need to get your nose bloodied before you will start understanding an European view of the world and its politics.

CRIMEA RIVER.

[Strike For The South]

It's 8:27 in Texas and Vladimir Putin is still a fascist.

[Kadagar_AV]

It's 8:27 in Texas and Vladimir Putin is still a fascist.

Do you mean Mark 8:27... Or Roman 8:27... Or Matthew 8:27?

Cheers for the point though, I didn't dare go that way...

[Strike For The South]

Do you mean Mark 8:27... Or Roman 8:27... Or Matthew 8:27?

Cheers for the point though, I didn't dare go that way...

As much as you dislike America (which you have valid reasons for. Hell I would agree with you on most of them) At the end of the day you know America is 100x what Putins Russia is and you know he is scum

The same goes for the rest of you. Complain, but when it comes down to brass tax, I know where all of you will be

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

tacks, dear boy, not tax.

Erm: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/17/ukraine-crisis-agreement-us-russia-eu

I struggle to see how this will help Putin's agenda - unless the "talks" on devolving Powers break down - igniting fresh, bloodier protests ets...

Yeah - I'mm going with that - designed to fail.

Any takers?

[Sarmatian]

tacks, dear boy, not tax.

Erm: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/17/ukraine-crisis-agreement-us-russia-eu

I struggle to see how this will help Putin's agenda - unless the "talks" on devolving Powers break down - igniting fresh, bloodier protests ets...

Yeah - I'mm going with that - designed to fail.


That's because you still imagine that Russia has any other goal but world domination.

This deal will probably stop Ukraine from joining NATO, we can't say for sure because we don't know how well defined constitutional is, and that's pretty much that for Russia.

Great news. Civil war was averted at the last moment.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

That's because you still imagine that Russia has any other goal but world domination.

This deal will probably stop Ukraine from joining NATO, we can't say for sure because we don't know how well defined constitutional is, and that's pretty much that for Russia.

Great news. Civil war was averted at the last moment.

It's more because he recently used the Tsarist name for Ukraine, New Russia

Edit: It's already failing: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-27076226

[Gilrandir]

Not protesters! Protesters are people, who were fed up with corruption and poverty. They are, for the most part, innocent. Their ringleaders need to be hanged - a few selected politicians, nazis and tycoons.

Then you can start building a functioning country. Trust me, we've been through this. We made the mistake of not hanging anyone in 2000 and we're still paying for that.

Ok, I guess those less guilty could be hanged by their thumbs instead.
Yet, notwithstanding all the turmoils of the last week I stay optimistic. There are a lot of things people here may not know or fail to perceive.
There is a huge patriotic upsurge in eastern (predominantly Russian-speaking) regions bordering on Donetsk. All the roads from the west and north to the latter region are blocked by checkpoints where locals from Dnipropetrovsk, Kharkiv and Zaporizhya regions are on duty. Regional administrations of those regions call for all voulnteers who have military experience (and many of them come without any call) and form local units to patrol borders with Donetsk region. Dnipropetrovsk local administration (headed by a tycoon who you hate so much) initiated a system of prizes: for handing in a machine gun - 1000$, a grenade gun - 2000$, a separatist - 10 000$ and so on up to freeing an administrative building for 200 000$. The money is to be paid in cash anonymously at the checkpoints on the border of Dnipropetrovsk region. All the developments testify to the fact that we can no more speak of Ukraine separated along the linguistic divide marked on maps (which was inaccurate as I have argued). Even in Russian-speaking regions people realize that whatever bones they may have to pick with Kyiv authorities they have no wish for any militant upheavals still less for Russian troops on their land.
In Donetsk and Lugansk regions the situation has also changed. Yesterday pro-Ukrainian people held demonstrations in Donetsk, Lugansk and Kramatorsk. It is true, they were not numerous - about 1000 in each city, but the reason of it is that many people are just scared - separatists are violent when they spot any dissidents within their reach. Moreover, as SBU reports, many of the active participants on the separatistic side are ex-criminals. For instance, 90% of those arrested in Mariupol after the attempt to storm the military base had had problems with the law - either administrative or criminal. By the way, many of those were arrested with the active paticipation of locals who hunted them around the vicinity. Curiously, after that the number of separatists inside the captured city hall decreased drastically and is now about 100 people. About 500 Donetsk region inhabitants with peviuos military experience came to Dnipropetrovsk and offered to form a special force to deal with separatists in Donetsk region as local authorities are afraid to do that on their territory. One more factor that no one seems to have reckoned with so far - the pitmen. Donetsk is a coal mining region so pitmen are the most popular trade there. They know that in adjacent Rostov region of Russia with similar coal deposits only THREE mines are functioning. If Donetsk joins Russia all the mines will be closed - Russia has another source of coal in Kuzbass (Syberia) where coal is extracted without mining - it is on the surface and consequently much cheaper.
I have a colleague who moved to work here from Maruipol last year and she knows the mindset of people in the east. For them the most crucial thing is stability and they start to realize that separatistic turmoils will never bring it. As the mayor of Slovyansk admitted, before the invasion about 30% of locals were Russian-oriented and now it is barely 0.5%. Of course, we may doubt the accuracy of figures, but the overall trend is obviuos.
We can't deny that a significant portion of the population there is still pro-Russian or/and separaristic, but according to the recent survey they number about 28%. The others don't want to see the remake of the Crimea plan enacted on their land.
Having all this in view, the Donetsk region deputies from the Party of Regions (which is supposed to represent the local sentiment) held a convention the result of which was forwarding conditions to central authorities in Kyiv. The major three of them are: decentralization of power, the ability to elect governors locally, Russian as the second official language of the country. The first two are indeed within the framework of reforms the central government has in view. The third, I believe is a negotiation issue to push the former two faster.

[Gilrandir]

Edit: It's already failing: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-27076226
Like I said, the separatists are shifting their demands constantly - before that there was no talk of Kyiv gonernment stepping down.

[Sarmatian]

That is all very interesting. It still doesn't change the fact that even if Russia did send a few dozen professional agents, they couldn't take control of the region without local support.

People are naturally wary of conflicts, especially anything resembling a civil war. It's good that both sides show restraint. Ukrainian army, for the most part, doesn't want to shoot protesters and more than they, for the most part, want to shoot the army (there are always hotheads, but they appear to be in a minority). Army, unlike the police, is associated with country as a whole, while police is often associated with those in power. If, however, army or militia starts shooting on the protesters, that will change.

Working with Party of Regions and Russia is the key. There won't be a solution overnight, but it is a significant step in the right direction.

If those are indeed Party of Regions' demand, they are very reasonable.

[Gilrandir]

That is all very interesting. It still doesn't change the fact that even if Russia did send a few dozen professional agents, they couldn't take control of the region without local support.


The local support is their OK, but it is actively stimulated from Russia. In the regions where it is not (or not so intense) you can't see those building capturings and arsenal burglaries. The majoirity of people all over the east are not inclined towards separation or even federalization.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Kadagar:

Your attitude may be more or less a perfect distillation of the European "holier/wiser than thou" attitude that makes many Americans say "Stick it up [I will leave the rest unwritten].

A number of the points you make are fair criticisms -- there are any number of those who are politically "awake" in the USA who are angered at the manifold inconsistencies of our foreign policy, for example -- but you are failing to think one aspect of it through.

If our inconsistencies (many of which are caused by our do-gooder intentions, however haphazard) are removed, the end result would not likely be a large "nationalism sucks, let us just be citizens of a brave new atheistic world" extension of Europe -- we'd be a more coldly selfish power state like the Russians or the Chinese. That would very likely make us consistent and predictable at long last, but I am happy that we have not trended that way.

[HoreTore]

It's so nice and heartwarming to see the real, unrestrained fascism coming out of eastern Ukraine these days.

I used to think Svoboda were insane, but boy are Putin's lapdogs outshining them!

[Seamus Fermanagh]

It's so nice and heartwarming to see the real, unrestrained fascism coming out of eastern Ukraine these days.

I used to think Svoboda were insane, but boy are Putin's lapdogs outshining them!

I does have the virtue of simplicity. No subterfuge or persiflage to confuse things.

[Gilrandir]

It's so nice and heartwarming to see the real, unrestrained fascism coming out of eastern Ukraine these days.

I used to think Svoboda were insane, but boy are Putin's lapdogs outshining them!
The self-styled mayor of Slovyansk, the city held by green men, called for a general hunt of those who speak Ukrainian.

[HoreTore]

The self-styled mayor of Slovyansk, the city held by green men, called for a general hunt of those who speak Ukrainian.

Obviously a compromise must be reached. How about just letting them kill everyone capable of using grammatically correct Ukrainian?

Let's work with Russia and negotiate with the separatists!

[Sarmatian]

The self-styled mayor of Slovyansk, the city held by green men, called for a general hunt of those who speak Ukrainian.

No he didn't.

[Gilrandir]

Obviously a compromise must be reached. How about just letting them kill everyone capable of using grammatically correct Ukrainian?


1. Do you think this "mayor" knows the word "grammar" applied to any language?
2. Do you believe that one can find a person using grammatically correct Ukrainian in Slovyansk (except a couple of school teachers)? But, you know, these few are worth a gibbet too.

[Gilrandir]

No he didn't.


http://www.62.ua/article/519508
Verbatim: "Vyachelslav Ponomarev asked the locals to inform "the People's Druzhina" about all suspicious individuals in the city, especially if they speak Ukrainian."

[Sarmatian]

http://www.62.ua/article/519508
Verbatim: "Vyachelslav Ponomarev asked the locals to inform "the People's Druzhina" about all suspicious individuals in the city, especially if they speak Ukrainian."

And it takes quite an imagination to come from that to "hunt for all who speak Ukrainian". The communication in the city is done in Russian and therefore anyone speaking Ukrainian is very likely not a local.

It's a conflict zone, they're naturally worried about army being sent in again.

[Gilrandir]

And it takes quite an imagination to come from that to "hunt for all who speak Ukrainian". The communication in the city is done in Russian and therefore anyone speaking Ukrainian is very likely not a local.

It's a conflict zone, they're naturally worried about army being sent in again.
Do you think spies who are sent in are stupid enough to use Ukrainian in public? As Brenus puts it, you are having a laugh.

[Sarmatian]

Do you think spies who are sent in are stupid enough to use Ukrainian in public? As Brenus puts it, you are having a laugh.

No, I'm having a laugh at how unusually restrained both sides have been so far, with very little blood spilled on the whole, and how some want to portray anti-government protesters as anti-semitic racist bigots and increase the tensions. Go and spread the hate, it will came back to bite you in the :daisy:

[Gilrandir]

No, I'm having a laugh at how unusually restrained both sides have been so far, with very little blood spilled on the whole, and how some want to portray anti-government protesters as anti-semitic racist bigots and increase the tensions. Go and spread the hate, it will came back to bite you in the :daisy:
Yet you portrayed protesters on maidan in somewhat similar way.
I just imagine what order protesters in Slovayansk will introduce all over the place if they have an upper hand in securing federalization and Russian as the second state language. They complain of Russian being supressed, as well as they did in Crimea, but in the latter out of more than 600 schools only NINE were Ukrainian language schools. You can figure out the percentage and compare it to the percentage of Ukrainians living there. It was called "suppression of the Russian language". I wonder how many out of those 9 will keep their status after the annexation.

[Sarmatian]

Yet you portrayed protesters on maidan in somewhat similar way.

No, only some of the ringleaders and those actually being a part of nazi movements like Right Sector.



I just imagine what order protesters in Slovayansk will introduce all over the place if they have an upper hand in securing federalization and Russian as the second state language. They complain of Russian being supressed, as well as they did in Crimea, but in the latter out of more than 600 schools only NINE were Ukrainian language schools. You can figure out the percentage and compare it to the percentage of Ukrainians living there. It was called "suppression of the Russian language". I wonder how many out of those 9 will keep their status after the annexation.

Idea that you will save Ukrainian language by suppressing Russian is bollox. What Ukrainian language needs is assisted natural development. That means promotion of films, theater plays, magazines, tv shows, literary works, school textbooks... in Ukrainian. That takes time and money. You need to get the country out of the sinkhole and then you can start the slow process. I don't see the problem even now, as most Ukrainians do speak both languages, they're just more likely to use Russian, but promotion of language is naturally an important part of protecting national identity and cultural heritage.

That doesn't mean suppression of Russian, of course. Why would anyone be so stupid to forcibly deny knowledge of another language, especially one which is spoken by a quarter of a million people around the world? It's already there, kids could learn both by the time they're 7 or so. Teach them English and German in school and you've just put ahead of most of Europeans when the time comes to look for a job.

What you have is an asset, not a liability. It should be treated as such.

[HoreTore]

And it takes quite an imagination to come from that to "hunt for all who speak Ukrainian". The communication in the city is done in Russian and therefore anyone speaking Ukrainian is very likely not a local.

OH COME ON

Such statements have been the calling card of every single large-scale massacre and other atrocities in history. In Indonesia it was everyone who spoke Chinese, in pre-norman England it was everyone who spoke Danish.

I'm not saying that a massacre is on the way, but to dismiss such statements? Unbelievably naive. Making up excuses or trying to find "rational grounds" for such a statement is nonsense. It's only real effect is to heighten tensions, alienate "the other" and pave way for taking the "us vs them" attitude to its logical extreme(genocide).

But I'm happy to see that you now consider it to be wrong to paint the anti-government protesters at Maidan square as fascists.

[Gilrandir]

Idea that you will save Ukrainian language by suppressing Russian is bollox.

Who said anything about suppression? I only wanted to show that it is Ukrainian that needs protection and promotion in Ukraine, not Russian. I just see no point for Ukrainian government to promote Russian in Ukraine. Russia will look to it that Russian is promoted anywhere in the world.


What Ukrainian language needs is assisted natural development. That means promotion of films, theater plays, magazines, tv shows, literary works, school textbooks... in Ukrainian. That takes time and money. You need to get the country out of the sinkhole and then you can start the slow process. I don't see the problem even now, as most Ukrainians do speak both languages, they're just more likely to use Russian, but promotion of language is naturally an important part of protecting national identity and cultural heritage.

That doesn't mean suppression of Russian, of course. Why would anyone be so stupid to forcibly deny knowledge of another language, especially one which is spoken by a quarter of a million people around the world? It's already there, kids could learn both by the time they're 7 or so. Teach them English and German in school and you've just put ahead of most of Europeans when the time comes to look for a job.

What you have is an asset, not a liability. It should be treated as such.
I'm ready to put my signature under every word of it.

[Sarmatian]

OH COME ON

Such statements have been the calling card of every single large-scale massacre and other atrocities in history. In Indonesia it was everyone who spoke Chinese, in pre-norman England it was everyone who spoke Danish.

I'm not saying that a massacre is on the way, but to dismiss such statements? Unbelievably naive. Making up excuses or trying to find "rational grounds" for such a statement is nonsense. It's only real effect is to heighten tensions, alienate "the other" and pave way for taking the "us vs them" attitude to its logical extreme(genocide).


You have to consider the context of the statement and the situation on the ground. It's a town where just a few days ago Ukrainian army came to with armoured vehicles.

Keeping an eye on those who aren't locals is way of lessening chances of that happening again. Now, if they start throwing Ukrainian speaker in jail en masse in Slovyansk, I'll agree with your interpretation. Since they haven't done that, I'll stick with mine.


But I'm happy to see that you now consider it to be wrong to paint the anti-government protesters at Maidan square as fascists

There are protesters and there are ringleaders. I have never called all protesters fascists. I've used nazis/fascists interchangeably, which arguably shouldn't be done but what the heck.

The people I referred to as either are Svoboda, Right Sector and similar scum.

[Gilrandir]

You have to consider the context of the statement and the situation on the ground. It's a town where just a few days ago Ukrainian army came to with armoured vehicles.
Keeping an eye on those who aren't locals is way of lessening chances of that happening again.
If "the mayor" (they hold or held the real legal and legitimate mayor in captivity) believes that any governmental agent will use Ukrainian in the conext you described it means that either he is unbelievably stupid himself or he deems the mentioned agents unbelivably stupid. Choose the one to your liking.

[HoreTore]

You have to consider the context of the statement and the situation on the ground. It's a town where just a few days ago Ukrainian army came to with armoured vehicles.

Keeping an eye on those who aren't locals is way of lessening chances of that happening again. Now, if they start throwing Ukrainian speaker in jail en masse in Slovyansk, I'll agree with your interpretation. Since they haven't done that, I'll stick with mine.

Yes, it's indeed a town infested with an army; the Russian army maintains a strong presence there...

'Keeping an eye on foreigners' is never a good idea unless your aim is genocide or general oppression.


There are protesters and there are ringleaders. I have never called all protesters fascists. I've used nazis/fascists interchangeably, which arguably shouldn't be done but what the heck.

The people I referred to as either are Svoboda, Right Sector and similar scum.

These types are at the fringes in Kiev. They are undisputed rulers in the east.

Yet, you continue to paint a rosy picture of these thugs...

[Sarmatian]

Yes, it's indeed a town infested with an army; the Russian army maintains a strong presence there...

'Keeping an eye on foreigners' is never a good idea unless your aim is genocide or general oppression.

The next several weeks will show who was right.

These types are at the fringes in Kiev. They are undisputed rulers in the east.

Yet, you continue to paint a rosy picture of these thugs...

Fringes? They channeled the public protest against corruption and poverty and turned it into anti-Russian/pro-western issue.

The second they got to power they:

1) Abandoned the deal with Russia
2) Reinstated the deal with the EU and expressed desire to join NATO
3) Beaten and threatened MP's who disagreed with them into submission or forced them out
4) Tried to ban the use of Russian language officially
5) Tried to ban the communist party
6) Tried to ban the party of regions
7) Tried to depose every regional governor who disagreed with them

It was a win for democracy, that's for sure. And now, since it's been established they're inherently democratic, they can send the army in as a "measured response".

BUT, the bottom line is, even if you think protesters in the east should all be killed, to keep Ukraine free for true Ukrainians, it can't be done, so there's nothing left for Kiev to do except negotiate.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

The next several weeks will show who was right.


Fringes? They channeled the public protest against corruption and poverty and turned it into anti-Russian/pro-western issue.

The second they got to power they:

1) Abandoned the deal with Russia
2) Reinstated the deal with the EU and expressed desire to join NATO
3) Beaten and threatened MP's who disagreed with them into submission or forced them out
4) Tried to ban the use of Russian language officially
5) Tried to ban the communist party
6) Tried to ban the party of regions
7) Tried to depose every regional governor who disagreed with them

It was a win for democracy, that's for sure. And now, since it's been established they're inherently democratic, they can send the army in as a "measured response".

BUT, the bottom line is, even if you think protesters in the east should all be killed, to keep Ukraine free for true Ukrainians, it can't be done, so there's nothing left for Kiev to do except negotiate.

1&2: That deal was based on a bribe - a very literal one as it turned out, given El Presidente's "living larder".

Something of a foolish thing to have anyway - given that meet needs to be hung for at least a week before you eat it. To whit, the deal was bad for Ukraine, it kept Ukraine reliant on artificially cheap Russian gas, kept it's most corrupt politician in power and prevented any reform - even token ones.

3: Well, yes, but that's not unusual in these situations - if we wrote off a government every time the MP's got into a bust up the UK would have ground to a halt at least 100 years ago - though we're much less exciting now, but we also have less to be excited about. I'm not going to get excited about this.

4: we've been over this - Yakykovich (can't spell the name, always wrong) brought that in as a pro-Russian move. Banning Russian for OFFICIAL USE makes it clear that Ukraine is not Russia - given Russia demonstrably predatory nature that's important if you're trying to Stalin's, sorry Putin's, jackboot off your neck.

5: Same reason - too Pro Russian - hey look - Russia annexed some territory from who recently? It's not paranoia if they're really out to get you.

6: See above.

7: Probably premature - but these are the regional governors who were appointed by the suspicious pro-Russian government, ja? Again, I refer you to Crimea.

I don't think the interim government WAS anti-Russian, I'm sure they are now, but they were anti closer ties with Russia on Putin's terms. A point of order here - Ukraine never joined the Commonwealth of Independent States because it rejected Russia's claim to be the sole legal successor to the USSR.

There's more going on here than a group of Kiev's elite going "ooh, Evil Russia!" It bears remembering that, whatever the Tsar might have you believe, Russia owes it's existence to Kiev, not Moscow.

[Sarmatian]

1&2: That deal was based on a bribe - a very literal one as it turned out, given El Presidente's "living larder".

Something of a foolish thing to have anyway - given that meet needs to be hung for at least a week before you eat it. To whit, the deal was bad for Ukraine, it kept Ukraine reliant on artificially cheap Russian gas, kept it's most corrupt politician in power and prevented any reform - even token ones.

How can it be a bribe? It was given to Ukraine, not Yanukovich.

For the rest, I can't really believe an educated man can write something like that - cheaper energy is a bad thing now? Preventing economy from collapse and people from freezing is a bad thing? Or is it only bad when it comes from Russia? Next thing I'll hear no one should accept medication from Russia because it can keep them "artificially healthy", or help when drowning because it would result in "artificially breathing"...

The west only found out about Ukrainian economic problems after the coup, it seems - 1bn from US, many more from EU are on the table, being discussed, we'll see how it goes. No one from the west offered it before. I wonder why, but I'm sure it didn't have anything to do with politics.


3: Well, yes, but that's not unusual in these situations - if we wrote off a government every time the MP's got into a bust up the UK would have ground to a halt at least 100 years ago - though we're much less exciting now, but we also have less to be excited about. I'm not going to get excited about this.

4: we've been over this - Yakykovich (can't spell the name, always wrong) brought that in as a pro-Russian move. Banning Russian for OFFICIAL USE makes it clear that Ukraine is not Russia - given Russia demonstrably predatory nature that's important if you're trying to Stalin's, sorry Putin's, jackboot off your neck.

5: Same reason - too Pro Russian - hey look - Russia annexed some territory from who recently? It's not paranoia if they're really out to get you.

6: See above.

So, beating and threatening MP's and their families is acceptable and normal in a democracy? Gotcha.

The other arguments are even sillier - Should US ban use of English to make it clear that America is not England? Forcibly suppressing a language is the most idiotic policy.

For the rest - you're again using reverse causation and trying to use a consequence to justify a cause.


7: Probably premature - but these are the regional governors who were appointed by the suspicious pro-Russian government, ja? Again, I refer you to Crimea.

And again I refer you to the very simple logical concept of causation. You can not use a consequence to justify a cause.

That would be like trying to say that Country A's declaration of war on Country B was justified because Country B's soldiers started shooting after Country A declared war.

[Gilrandir]

Let's compare those accusations with what protesters in the East did when they captured administrative buildings:


1) Abandoned the deal with Russia
2) Reinstated the deal with the EU and expressed desire to join NATO

1) and 2) proclaimed their plan to separate from Ukraine and join Russia or at least to join the Customs Union


3) Beaten and threatened MP's who disagreed with them into submission or forced them out

3) beaten and threatened local deputies who disagreed with them into submission or forced them out: a local deputy in Gorlivka who tried to take down the flag of so-called Donetsk people's republic was beaten savagely; the green men still hold the mayor of Slovyansk captive; even more savagely are treated locals who disagree with them - you may try to find information and videos about a 53-year old woman (a doctor, btw) who repeatedly kicked in the face a prostrate pro-Ukrainian in Kharkiv after a pro-Ukrainian meeting was dispersed by separatists. The surgeon who operated him says that parts of skull penetrated into the brain.


4) Tried to ban the use of Russian language officially

4) tried to introduce Russian as the second state language disregarding the stipulation of the constitution (shall I mention switching off all Ukrainian TV channels here or do we need a separate entry for it?)


5) Tried to ban the communist party
6) Tried to ban the party of regions

5) and 6) the self-styled mayor of Slovyansk banned Batkivshchina, Udar and Svoboda on its territory, the same had been done in Crimea before the "referendum"


7) Tried to depose every regional governor who disagreed with them

7) deposed a lot of mayors in Donetsk region introducing so-called people's mayors instead; refused to acknowledge the governors appointed by Kyiv and (in Donetsk) forwarded People's governor instead.
Plus (what was not done by Maidan Nazis): they proclaimed a new state and appealed to Russia to "render help", installed their own police chiefs, supported Russian invasion force, initiated some Gipsy pogroms in Slovyansk.
And whatever violent Maidan protesters might have done they NEVER set women (often with children and/or icons) in front against their opponents.
Now what do you think of eastern separatists? Desperate fighters for a noble cause playing fair? Own up to it: Svoboda speaks fascist, easterners act fascist.
To me it becomes more and more clear that the center of all unrest is in Slovyansk: it is from there that the orders are issued to separatists all over the region, even to those in Donetsk; it is from there that separatists got reinforcements to start their attacks around the region. Note that in Lugansk region, which has as many pro-Russian-minded people (and perhaps more) only the SBU building was captured - no other administrative buildings in small cities and towns. So crushing the green men in Slovyansk will bereave the separatists of all management and unity: already different groups of them forward different demands (up to abolishing vaccination and biometric passports) and do not obey the Party of Regions orders (whatever the Party may claim).

[Sarmatian]

... which kind of proves that the protests in the east follow the same pattern as those in Maidan few months ago, which was my point all along.




And whatever violent Maidan protesters might have done they NEVER set women (often with children and/or icons) in front against their opponents.

O, rly?

"Notable in the crowd are the faces of both men and women adorned in camouflage jackets and heavy, protective helmets. In the increasingly violent Euromaidan protest between anti-government advocates and riot police, women are donning gas masks and padded vests to fight alongside men.

The opposition’s women’s brigade, a female unit organized among the protesters, trains women in self-defense tactics. In a special report by Al Jazeera, journalist Neave Barker visits a training facility where several hundred women are learning to fight, are taught how to handle riots, and how to avoid arrest."

12800

21st century is so cool. Everything's documented and you don't even have to try to find written or photographic evidence.


Now what do you think of eastern separatists? Desperate fighters for a noble cause playing fair? Own up to it: Svoboda speaks fascist, easterners act fascist.
To me it becomes more and more clear that the center of all unrest is in Slovyansk: it is from there that the orders are issued to separatists all over the region, even to those in Donetsk; it is from there that separatists got reinforcements to start their attacks around the region. Note that in Lugansk region, which has as many pro-Russian-minded people (and perhaps more) only the SBU building was captured - no other administrative buildings in small cities and towns. So crushing the green men in Slovyansk will bereave the separatists of all management and unity: already different groups of them forward different demands (up to abolishing vaccination and biometric passports) and do not obey the Party of Regions orders (whatever the Party may claim).

I think the west used people who were fed up with corruption and poverty in transformed it into a political issue, aided by equally corrupt opposition politician and far-right organizations. Russia now does the same, only on a smaller scale, and they need to be treated the same.

So, either both are illegal, in which case the entire Maidan government needs to vacate their posts along with various governors and mayors in the "Donetsk Republic" or both represent legitimate grievances of Ukrainian citizens and should be addressed as such. That would morally equivalent.

From practical point of view, it is clear that Maidan government doesn't have the means to dislodge the eastern protesters, unless they arm Right Sector and similar fascist organizations. If we operate under the assumption that the current politicians in Kiev aren't completely out of their mind, they know that would trigger a full-blown civil war and possibly even a direct intervention from Russia.

Maidan government has two options: dialogue or civil war. It is that simple.

[Gilrandir]

... which kind of proves that the protests in the east follow the same pattern as those in Maidan few months ago, which was my point all along.

I saw your point as trying to paint Maidan black and justify all separatists do because they are not described as fascists. You seem to need a black name pinned on someone to start hating them and condone what others do if they don't have such a name.




"Notable in the crowd are the faces of both men and women adorned in camouflage jackets and heavy, protective helmets. In the increasingly violent Euromaidan protest between anti-government advocates and riot police, women are donning gas masks and padded vests to fight alongside men.

The opposition’s women’s brigade, a female unit organized among the protesters, trains women in self-defense tactics. In a special report by Al Jazeera, journalist Neave Barker visits a training facility where several hundred women are learning to fight, are taught how to handle riots, and how to avoid arrest."


Do you not see the difference (note the bold)? Those women on Maidan fought alongside men. Separatists (taught by Russians, who in turn learnt it in Chechnya) skulk behind their women's backs. That's what I meant speaking of fairplay: if you are man enough to start a riot - be a man to the end and be ready to fight.

[Sarmatian]

I saw your point as trying to paint Maidan black and justify all separatists do because they are not described as fascists. You seem to need a black name pinned on someone to start hating them and condone what others do if they don't have such a name.

Well, you saw it wrongly.


Do you not see the difference (note the bold)? Those women on Maidan fought alongside men. Separatists (taught by Russians, who in turn learnt it in Chechnya) skulk behind their women's backs. That's what I meant speaking of fairplay: if you are man enough to start a riot - be a man to the end and be ready to fight.

aaaand, that's why the picture was also there. Those aren't trained women, but ordinary middle-aged females holding signs that say "mum" in front. The picture was taken on Maidan, in February, btw.

Get over it, it's 21st century. Equality rulz.

[Gilrandir]

aaaand, that's why the picture was also there. Those aren't trained women, but ordinary middle-aged females holding signs that say "mum" in front. The picture was taken on Maidan, in February, btw.

Get over it, it's 21st century. Equality rulz.
It was a picture of anti-Maidan activists who came before the Berkuts to show that the latter were someone's children. One of these women was spotted at other anti-Maidan meetings, at least in Kharkiv and Odessa and later in Crimea. Even if it weren't so (which I'm sure was) the picture clearly didn't match the text. Do you think those women were the trainees the article spoke about?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

How can it be a bribe? It was given to Ukraine, not Yanukovich.

For the rest, I can't really believe an educated man can write something like that - cheaper energy is a bad thing now? Preventing economy from collapse and people from freezing is a bad thing? Or is it only bad when it comes from Russia? Next thing I'll hear no one should accept medication from Russia because it can keep them "artificially healthy", or help when drowning because it would result in "artificially breathing"...

ARTIFICIALLY cheap - and you might say it was paid to Ukraine - but where do you think Yanukovich got the money for the mansion? Putin was covering his vassal's debts - effectively paying his credit card bill for him.


The west only found out about Ukrainian economic problems after the coup, it seems - 1bn from US, many more from EU are on the table, being discussed, we'll see how it goes. No one from the west offered it before. I wonder why, but I'm sure it didn't have anything to do with politics.

All that was on the table before, but Yanukovich preferred the easier Russian deal to dropping the subsidies on Gas.


So, beating and threatening MP's and their families is acceptable and normal in a democracy? Gotcha.

Under certain circumstances, it is excusable.


The other arguments are even sillier - Should US ban use of English to make it clear that America is not England? Forcibly suppressing a language is the most idiotic policy.

I didn't say it was smart - I said there as a reason they did it - and it's very common. There's also no evidence I've yet seen of suppression a la the "Welsh Knot" we used to punish children with here. And America has banned "English" - American uses different pronunciation, has different spelling, some unique words, and some grammatical oddities against English. They're mostly mutually intelligible, but it's not 100% and and it's not just a difference in dialect.


For the rest - you're again using reverse causation and trying to use a consequence to justify a cause.

So the consequence of Ukraine overthrowing it's corrupt president, having a relatively minor political crisis and making overtures to the EU after months of protest aimed at just that is - Russia annexing Crimea?

No - the Ukrainians took certain steps because they saw Russia as predatory, and they were correct to be worried.


And again I refer you to the very simple logical concept of causation. You can not use a consequence to justify a cause.

That would be like trying to say that Country A's declaration of war on Country B was justified because Country B's soldiers started shooting after Country A declared war.

Except that everything snowballed after Russia moved troops into Crimea. Originally, the EU was unwilling to sign the association deal with an interim government, originally, the provisional government just undid some of Yanukovich's most extreme reforms - like reverting to the old Constitution that weakened the president's power and undoing the Law which gave Russian EQUAL status with Ukrainian.

Neither of these are extraordinary moves - as previously noted the language of the French Republic is French, not Breton.

Remember, Putin invaded days after Yanukovich was ousted - the BBC has a timeline:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-26248275

There was really no time for Ukraine to do anything but make noises about what it wanted before Putin sent in his stormtroopers - there's no case for provocation.

[Sarmatian]

It was a picture of anti-Maidan activists who came before the Berkuts to show that the latter were someone's children. One of these women was spotted at other anti-Maidan meetings, at least in Kharkiv and Odessa and later in Crimea. Even if it weren't so (which I'm sure was) the picture clearly didn't match the text. Do you think those women were the trainees the article spoke about?

Yes, I agree it was a little misleading. The picture and the text are a part of a longer text about women during Maidan, which mentions that some women were trained for conflict with the police and it also included a picture of normal, everyday women just standing with the words "mum" written on a piece of paper.

Not that it matters much either way, it's 21st century. It just refutes your claim.


ARTIFICIALLY cheap - and you might say it was paid to Ukraine - but where do you think Yanukovich got the money for the mansion? Putin was covering his vassal's debts - effectively paying his credit card bill for him.

Well, I'm sure Ukrainians will be extremely happy about that when they're NATURALLY freezing come next winter. They need that gas and they're on a brink of bankruptcy. What's the big difference between giving them money to pay for the market price of gas and offering them a discount on gas?

If the mansion was the cause of Ukraine's economic problems, then there's nothing to worry about, just sell it. There, I solved Ukrainians insolvency. You may mention that I used to frequent the same forum as you did when I'm receiving the Nobel prize for economy.

Unfortunately, the reality is that the problems in Ukraine are endemic corruption in ALL levels of society and tycoons who have devastated the economy.


All that was on the table before, but Yanukovich preferred the easier Russian deal to dropping the subsidies on Gas.

Because it was the better and concrete offer.


Under certain circumstances, it is excusable.

Yes, well, we disagree here.


I didn't say it was smart - I said there as a reason they did it - and it's very common. There's also no evidence I've yet seen of suppression a la the "Welsh Knot" we used to punish children with here. And America has banned "English" - American uses different pronunciation, has different spelling, some unique words, and some grammatical oddities against English. They're mostly mutually intelligible, but it's not 100% and and it's not just a difference in dialect.

Kudos for sticking to your story, but I wouldn't say that in front of a linguist.


So the consequence of Ukraine overthrowing it's corrupt president, having a relatively minor political crisis and making overtures to the EU after months of protest aimed at just that is - Russia annexing Crimea?

Not exactly - consequence of everything I listed is Russia annexing Crimea.


No - the Ukrainians took certain steps because they saw Russia as predatory, and they were correct to be worried.

Ok, reverse causation seems to be the thing when one side needs to be presented as the good guys.


Except that everything snowballed after Russia moved troops into Crimea. Originally, the EU was unwilling to sign the association deal with an interim government, originally, the provisional government just undid some of Yanukovich's most extreme reforms - like reverting to the old Constitution that weakened the president's power and undoing the Law which gave Russian EQUAL status with Ukrainian.

Russian never had equal status as Ukrainian. Even during Yanukovich, both sides had to agree to use Russian in court otherwise the process was done in Ukrainian, for instance. Even if it did, it's no excuse, because it is detrimental for the nation in the long run and because it is basically petty nationalism.


Neither of these are extraordinary moves - as previously noted the language of the French Republic is French, not Breton.


And the language of USA, Canada, Australia and other countries is English, language of Austria is German, Swiss don't have a Swiss language, in Brazil they speak Portuguese, in Argentina Spanish and in India and China there are dozens of languages in use.

On its own, I'd call that decision "petty nationalism". In conjunction with everything else, a rather unpleasant pattern was emerging.


Remember, Putin invaded days after Yanukovich was ousted - the BBC has a timeline:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-26248275

There was really no time for Ukraine to do anything but make noises about what it wanted before Putin sent in his stormtroopers - there's no case for provocation.

What Russia did in Crimea was wrong, but it is important to understand the chain of events that led to it and not mix cause with consequence.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I just realised - we're having an argument on Easter Sunday.

~:grouphug:

[Seamus Fermanagh]

A minor point: the US has no official language, nor should it.

No we do not. Why should we not?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I'd say because this nation was founded by overturning the existing social order, and one only ever creates language restrictions in an attempt to preserve an order that's already decaying. Of course that's just my opinion.

I'm sure the founders simply overlooked it. They were mostly an elitist lot.

They overlooked a LOT, here's a quick recap from wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English-only_movement

However, US Law is published in English - making English the only working language of the Federal Government from de facto standpoint.

Bringing it back to Ukraine -

If Russian is given official standing alongside Ukrainian you might have a situation where, in some provinces, Laws were written in Russian - thereby prejudicing Ukrainians.

For those who don't know much about translation - the problem is that a Law, treaty, etc. has to have legal force and be interpreted according it's words as well as its intent - when you translate something the words move, and this can cause ambiguity. When international treaties are written they are usually written explicitly in only one or two languages, and then translated into other languages. Only the language the law was WRITTEN in has legal force.

That's why this is such a sensitive issue for Ukraine.

[Sarmatian]

Bringing it back to Ukraine -

If Russian is given official standing alongside Ukrainian you might have a situation where, in some provinces, Laws were written in Russian - thereby prejudicing Ukrainians.

For those who don't know much about translation - the problem is that a Law, treaty, etc. has to have legal force and be interpreted according it's words as well as its intent - when you translate something the words move, and this can cause ambiguity. When international treaties are written they are usually written explicitly in only one or two languages, and then translated into other languages. Only the language the law was WRITTEN in has legal force.

That's why this is such a sensitive issue for Ukraine.

That is bollox. Swiss manage to do just fine with 4 official languages even though Italian is spoken by only 6.5% and Romansch by 0.5% of the population. I'm also not aware of any legal quagmires in Canada because English and French have the same status. The fact that Ukraine is bilingual is in no way the cause of any of Ukrainian problems nor would any of them go away if they ban the use of Russian.

Anyway, I found an interesting article about US-Russian relations in general, naturally touching on Ukraine crisis, titled How the U.S. made its Putin problem worse (http://news.yahoo.com/special-report-u-made-putin-problem-worse-110711843.html)

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

That is bollox. Swiss manage to do just fine with 4 official languages even though Italian is spoken by only 6.5% and Romansch by 0.5% of the population. I'm also not aware of any legal quagmires in Canada because English and French have the same status. The fact that Ukraine is bilingual is in no way the cause of any of Ukrainian problems nor would any of them go away if they ban the use of Russian.

Anyway, I found an interesting article about US-Russian relations in general, naturally touching on Ukraine crisis, titled How the U.S. made its Putin problem worse (http://news.yahoo.com/special-report-u-made-putin-problem-worse-110711843.html)

:sweetheart:

[Sarmatian]

:sweetheart:

Is that the Easter spirit? ~:grouphug:

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Yes.

[Gilrandir]

OK, Easter is over, so back to bickering and snapping at each other.

Yes, I agree it was a little misleading. The picture and the text are a part of a longer text about women during Maidan, which mentions that some women were trained for conflict with the police and it also included a picture of normal, everyday women just standing with the words "mum" written on a piece of paper.

Not that it matters much either way, it's 21st century. It just refutes your claim.


Since the article you quoted seems to have no mentioning of Maidan protesters shielding themselves from Berkuts by women I don't see how it refutes my arguments.


Well, I'm sure Ukrainians will be extremely happy about that when they're NATURALLY freezing come next winter.

Let's make it clear once and for all. Every year Ukraine extracts about 22-23 billion cubic meters of its own gas and imports that much. ALL THE GAS THAT IS NEEDED FOR HEATING AND COOKING IS EXTRACTED IN UKRAINE. All the imported gas is used for chemical and metallurgical industries (mostly owned by the hateful tycoons). It is them (and people who work at those enreprises) that will suffer most. Especially bad it would be for chemical plants since there gas is not used for buring but it serves as a substance to make whatever they produce (furitilizers, for example) out of it. So no winter freezing looms in view. We will have to reverse the gas flow direction from westward to eastward as all gas vats are in Western Ukraine. And it was done before (in 2008 or 2009, I don't recall the exact year) when through having signed no fresh gas agreement Gazprom closed the valve. I think Europeans remember this conflict, but Ukrainians didn't suffer at all.




On its own, I'd call that decision "petty nationalism". In conjunction with everything else, a rather unpleasant pattern was emerging.

Can you define how nationalism (petty or large-scale) is different from patriotism in your view?

[Gilrandir]

If Russian is given official standing alongside Ukrainian you might have a situation where, in some provinces, Laws were written in Russian - thereby prejudicing Ukrainians.

For those who don't know much about translation - the problem is that a Law, treaty, etc. has to have legal force and be interpreted according it's words as well as its intent - when you translate something the words move, and this can cause ambiguity. When international treaties are written they are usually written explicitly in only one or two languages, and then translated into other languages. Only the language the law was WRITTEN in has legal force.

That's why this is such a sensitive issue for Ukraine.
I don't think you understand why language is such a sensitive issue for Ukraine. As I have shown, Ukraine now is on the way of reviving Ukrainian and introducing into some spheres (education, medicine, science) where exclusively or predominantly Russian was used. It exasperates many pro-Russians. For example, only 4-5 years ago Nikolay Levchenko (then the secretary of Donetsk city council and now a MP) said that Ukrainian is good only for folksongs and in other cases it is useless.
I would say that 95% of those who speak Ukrainian can also speak Russian, but not the other way around. So for some people in the East and South introducing Russian as a second official language is the legal justification of why they shouldn't learn Ukrainian. They use Russian everywhere they want (according to the recent poll, 75% of the people of South-eastern regions don't see that the rights of Russian speakers are infringed upon) and having Russian as an official language wouldn't change anything in their life except that their anti-Ukrainian bias would have legal grounds.

[Brenus]

“what was not done by Maidan Nazis”: No, because one, they wanted all Ukraine, no a bit, two, it is because the Eastern European Nazis, for whatever reason in their sick heads, think Europeans love Nazis and are proud of Hitler.

“Svoboda speaks fascist, easterners act fascist.” Svodoba is not fascist. Svododa is Nazi. As the ideology of the ones you describe as easterners, it vary from newspapers to newspapers, and goes from Communist to fascist.

“Neither of these are extraordinary moves - as previously noted the language of the French Republic is French, not Breton” The bit of difference is French was official language before Revolution in the facts (as spoken by the King and all administrations in all local governments). And it became official when voted by elected representatives in all French Constitutions. Not imposed from the back without any consultation of the concerned populations.

[Pannonian]

I don't think you understand why language is such a sensitive issue for Ukraine. As I have shown, Ukraine now is on the way of reviving Ukrainian and introducing into some spheres (education, medicine, science) where exclusively or predominantly Russian was used. It exasperates many pro-Russians. For example, only 4-5 years ago Nikolay Levchenko (then the secretary of Donetsk city council and now a MP) said that Ukrainian is good only for folksongs and in other cases it is useless.
I would say that 95% of those who speak Ukrainian can also speak Russian, but not the other way around. So for some people in the East and South introducing Russian as a second official language is the legal justification of why they shouldn't learn Ukrainian. They use Russian everywhere they want (according to the recent poll, 75% of the people of South-eastern regions don't see that the rights of Russian speakers are infringed upon) and having Russian as an official language wouldn't change anything in their life except that their anti-Ukrainian bias would have legal grounds.

I don't know why you bother. You'll all end up speaking English anyway.

[Sarmatian]

Interesting news - German diplomat Klaus Zillikens, head of OSCE mission in eastern Ukraine said that after four weeks they've been in Ukraine so far, OSCE didn't find any evidence whatsoever of the presence of Russian servicemen in Ukraine, including Donetsk region. link (http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_04_20/OSCE-mission-has-no-evidence-of-Russian-military-presence-in-Ukraine-OSCE-mission-head-6727/)

[Gilrandir]

“Svoboda speaks fascist, easterners act fascist.” Svodoba is not fascist. Svododa is Nazi. As the ideology of the ones you describe as easterners, it vary from newspapers to newspapers, and goes from Communist to fascist.


OK, Svoboda speaks Nazi, easterners act Nazi.

[Husar]

Interesting news - German diplomat Klaus Zillikens, head of OSCE mission in eastern Ukraine said that after four weeks they've been in Ukraine so far, OSCE didn't find any evidence whatsoever of the presence of Russian servicemen in Ukraine, including Donetsk region. link (http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_04_20/OSCE-mission-has-no-evidence-of-Russian-military-presence-in-Ukraine-OSCE-mission-head-6727/)

Before anyone complains that the site must be biased propaganda because it's Russian, this German site (http://www.ad-hoc-news.de/osze-beobachter-besorgt-wegen-lage-in-ostukraine--/de/News/36518402) quotes him as saying that, too.

I also agree with this from your link:

Western media are trying to show Russia in an unflattering light when covering the Ukraine crisis and its stance is conscientiously Russophobic.
"They have a task to show Russia in an unflattering light, and this task is editorial," Putin’s press secretary Dmitry Peskov said in an interview with the "Right to Know" program on Russian TV channel on April 19.
"There are chronic inflammatory processes of consciousness that are deeply rooted in the "Cold War" era. These processes have not gone anywhere. They were simply overlapped by new perceptions like the atmosphere of a 'reset' and globalisation when people started travelling and meeting each other and when a thing like public diplomacy emerged," Peskov said, adding that phobias and Russophobia have always been present in media coverage of events related to Russia.
"Russophobia warmed up sometimes artfully and elegantly and sometimes by openly rude and unpardonable barrage of propaganda that would make the Communist Party of the Soviet Union (CPSU) envious tends to aggravate in critical moments. This is what we now see in the United States and Europe," Peskov complained.
Read more: http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_04_20/OSCE-mission-has-no-evidence-of-Russian-military-presence-in-Ukraine-OSCE-mission-head-6727/

I've had this impression for a very long time, and there seem to be a lot of people who default to blaming Russia without even considering the option that Russia may not be to blame as valid.

[Gilrandir]

I don't know why you bother. You'll all end up speaking English anyway.

Fisrt of all, I hope we will not end up.
Second of all, that's where the Irish are heading now.
Third of all, "bothering" of that kind installed English in England as the language of the Parliament in 1362 instead of French and towards the end of the century England had the first English-speaking monarch. Languages need bothering about.

[Gilrandir]

Interesting news - German diplomat Klaus Zillikens, head of OSCE mission in eastern Ukraine said that after four weeks they've been in Ukraine so far, OSCE didn't find any evidence whatsoever of the presence of Russian servicemen in Ukraine, including Donetsk region. link (http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_04_20/OSCE-mission-has-no-evidence-of-Russian-military-presence-in-Ukraine-OSCE-mission-head-6727/)
As far as I know, OSCE mission never reached Slovyansk where all the Russianness is coming from.

[Gilrandir]

I've had this impression for a very long time, and there seem to be a lot of people who default to blaming Russia without even considering the option that Russia may not be to blame as valid.
Annexing a part of another country's territory is not a valid reason to blame Russia?

[Sarmatian]

Before anyone complains that the site must be biased propaganda because it's Russian, this German site (http://www.ad-hoc-news.de/osze-beobachter-besorgt-wegen-lage-in-ostukraine--/de/News/36518402) quotes him as saying that, too.


That doesn't mean it's true, Hus. It just means that German site is also biased propaganda. :creep:


Fisrt of all, I hope we will not end up.
Second of all, that's where the Irish are heading now.
Third of all, "bothering" of that kind installed English in England as the language of the Parliament in 1362 instead of French and towards the end of the century England had the first English-speaking monarch. Languages need bothering about.

Well, it's gonna be much simpler when we speak just three languages, English, Spanish and Chinese... Imagine that, you speak just three languages and you can communicate with the entire world.

I'm a polyglot myself, thanks to Balkan nationalism. In addition to Serbian, I'm also completely fluent in Croatian, Bosnian and Montenegrin. Who said nationalism was bad? I speak three additional languages without ever learning them thanks to it.

[Gilrandir]

Well, it's gonna be much simpler when we speak just three languages, English, Spanish and Chinese...
It's gonna be much simpler when we look the same, act the same, think the same. What trouble the future rulers it would save.

[Brenus]

“easterners act Nazi.” How and when? By the way, what about the waves of Crimean Tatar refugees who had their house marked and were near to be ethnically cleansed? Any news?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I don't think you understand why language is such a sensitive issue for Ukraine. As I have shown, Ukraine now is on the way of reviving Ukrainian and introducing into some spheres (education, medicine, science) where exclusively or predominantly Russian was used. It exasperates many pro-Russians. For example, only 4-5 years ago Nikolay Levchenko (then the secretary of Donetsk city council and now a MP) said that Ukrainian is good only for folksongs and in other cases it is useless.
I would say that 95% of those who speak Ukrainian can also speak Russian, but not the other way around. So for some people in the East and South introducing Russian as a second official language is the legal justification of why they shouldn't learn Ukrainian. They use Russian everywhere they want (according to the recent poll, 75% of the people of South-eastern regions don't see that the rights of Russian speakers are infringed upon) and having Russian as an official language wouldn't change anything in their life except that their anti-Ukrainian bias would have legal grounds.

Go back and read my posts on this - I get it. I get that it goes back to when Ukraine was ruled from Russia and everybody was expected to become Russian. A big deal for you - Imagine being Latvian, or Estonian.

Actually, I have to say, I think you must have missed my point - because I just said all that to Brenus in the last few pages.


Fisrt of all, I hope we will not end up.
Second of all, that's where the Irish are heading now.
Third of all, "bothering" of that kind installed English in England as the language of the Parliament in 1362 instead of French and towards the end of the century England had the first English-speaking monarch. Languages need bothering about.

That's correct - but it took 300 years for that to happen, and it's not the same English as spoken in Wessex in 1066. It took that long because language is sensitive on both sides.


“easterners act Nazi.” How and when? By the way, what about the waves of Crimean Tatar refugees who had their house marked and were near to be ethnically cleansed? Any news?

Depends -if you're Jewish or not. I mean, don't get me wrong, it's great that the Fascists aren't killing people yet, or even beating them, but it's still early.

[Sarmatian]

Depends -if you're Jewish or not. I mean, don't get me wrong, it's great that the Fascists aren't killing people yet, or even beating them, but it's still early.

Yeah, that pamphlet actually proved to be another forgery and they didn't in fact come from the protesters.

So, in hindsight we've had:

1) Genocide of the Tatars which failed to happen
2) Genocide of the Roma which failed to happen
3) Anti-semitic leaflets (proof of genocidal intention apparently) which were a forgery
4) Great Hunt of the Ukrainians speakers which failed to happen
5) Russian army which is absent according to OSCE (a commie-nazi organisation)

Is it possible that there has been... I'm not sure how to put this... or do I actually dare to say it... some propaganda involved.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Yeah, that pamphlet actually proved to be another forgery and they didn't in fact come from the protesters.

So, in hindsight we've had:

1) Genocide of the Tatars which failed to happen
2) Genocide of the Roma which failed to happen
3) Anti-semitic leaflets (proof of genocidal intention apparently) which were a forgery
4) Great Hunt of the Ukrainians speakers which failed to happen
5) Russian army which is absent according to OSCE (a commie-nazi organisation)

Is it possible that there has been... I'm not sure how to put this... or do I actually dare to say it... some propaganda involved.

I've heard it claimed that pamphlet was a forgery - claim to present some evidence to that affect?

[Sarmatian]

I've heard it claimed that pamphlet was a forgery - claim to present some evidence to that affect?

Elementary deduction, my dear Watson.

12802

If you sign and put an official stamp on something, you do that so people would know it comes from you and the organisation you're representing, in which case you don't deny it was from you the next day.

If you want to spread a message but later deny it came from you, you don't sign and put an official stamp in first place.

Also, there are differences between the stamp used on that paper and the official stamp.

[gaelic cowboy]

and its completely impossible it came from say the FSB eh.

no chance they would do such miss-information ops is there?

the reality is you dont know who wrote it

[Sarmatian]

and its completely impossible it came from say the FSB eh.

no chance they would do such miss-information ops is there?

the reality is you dont know who wrote it

So, FSB released a pamphlet discrediting the protesters to give them the opportunity to deny it...

No, I never thought of that, because, as far as I know, Baldrick doesn't work at FSB.

Serious answer - No, we can't say for sure who created it, but from what we know, it is most likely a propaganda piece with the goal of presenting protesters in the east as anti-Semites.

[Beskar]

Could be a random dude in his mothers spare-bedroom with a working printer and some messed up views.

[Sarmatian]

Could be a random dude in his mothers spare-bedroom with a working printer and some messed up views.

Could be theoretically...

... but there is some skill involved in making the document realistic and falsifying the stamp and then there's the issue of distribution which involves more than one man. It is, most likely, organised propaganda, a reasonably effective one at that. Very few of the major news agencies even bothered to mentioned that the man who supposedly signed it immediately denied it, let alone take it under deeper scrutiny.

[Brenus]

“Depends -if you're Jewish or not. I mean, don't get me wrong, it's great that the Fascists aren't killing people yet, or even beating them, but it's still early.” You will tell me if I am wrong, I am sure, but the only real anti-Semitic incident was actually in the ranks of the democratic movement, with the Jewish leader telling the community to leave the town.

[gaelic cowboy]

or its been designed badly so one side or the other can proclaim its dirty tricks by there opposing side.


All I know is that regardless who wrote it we can be certain that turmoil suits Russia more.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Could be theoretically...

... but there is some skill involved in making the document realistic and falsifying the stamp and then there's the issue of distribution which involves more than one man. It is, most likely, organised propaganda, a reasonably effective one at that. Very few of the major news agencies even bothered to mentioned that the man who supposedly signed it immediately denied it, let alone take it under deeper scrutiny.

You can falsify the stamp with a potato, a child can do it -anybody with actual skill would have been more convincing, unless they wanted to be unconvincing.

We know Russia operates illegal deep-cover agents in the US, and is still inserting them, they won't have stopped because Anna Chapman was caught. This leads us to the logical conclusion that they also operate them in Ukraine - may have many more in place than the US, as inserting someone would be effortless by comparison.

These FSB agents may also not be the brigtest sparks, because until recently it would have been an easy posting.

I never thought it came from the office of the "People's Governor", but Putin is the one using the Russian nationalist dog whistle, that will attract all the racist fruitcakes with anti-Jewish, anti-Ukrainian, anti-Tartar views.

There's another problem with Right Sector or another Ukrainian militia distributing them - they were doing so in broad daylight, given that militias rule in Donetsk, it seems unlikely that random men in balaclavas could walk around all day shoving stuff in people's faces if they weren't known to the local heavies. One thinks, if they were strangers, they would have been taken somewhere "private" for "strong words".

[Sarmatian]

or its been designed badly so one side or the other can proclaim its dirty tricks by there opposing side.


All I know is that regardless who wrote it we can be certain that turmoil suits Russia more.

And painting protesters as anti-Semitic, racist bigots suits Kiev more. Don't forget that they, in addition to international propaganda battle, are also waging a domestic propaganda battle. A lot of people in the east is still divided on what to do. A lot of people in the central Ukraine are divided on how to address the protesters.

The worse the protesters are presented, the more freedom they get to deal with them violently instead of addressing their issues.


You can falsify the stamp with a potato, a child can do it -anybody with actual skill would have been more convincing, unless they wanted to be unconvincing.

We know Russia operates illegal deep-cover agents in the US, and is still inserting them, they won't have stopped because Anna Chapman was caught. This leads us to the logical conclusion that they also operate them in Ukraine - may have many more in place than the US, as inserting someone would be effortless by comparison.

And we know that US does all that and more, UK also (only on the much smaller scale). If we're basing our judgement on that USA could be responsible just as well.


I never thought it came from the office of the "People's Governor", but Putin is the one using the Russian nationalist dog whistle, that will attract all the racist fruitcakes with anti-Jewish, anti-Ukrainian, anti-Tartar views.

The anti-whatever views are more easily associated with Kiev. Don't forget that 5 ministerial positions, in addition to various other important state functions, in the Maidan government is held by what is effectively a nazi party and that only violent incident (actually two incidents) involving Jews happened in Kiev, prompting one of the chief Rabbis in Ukraine to urge Jews to leave Kiev and, possibly even the country, to be on the safe side.


There's another problem with Right Sector or another Ukrainian militia distributing them - they were doing so in broad daylight, given that militias rule in Donetsk, it seems unlikely that random men in balaclavas could walk around all day shoving stuff in people's faces if they weren't known to the local heavies. One thinks, if they were strangers, they would have been taken somewhere "private" for "strong words".

There were only about 200 or so of them distributed in a very short time by three men and then they disappeared. The men as well as pamphlets.

[Shaka_Khan]

I don't think you understand why language is such a sensitive issue for Ukraine. As I have shown, Ukraine now is on the way of reviving Ukrainian and introducing into some spheres (education, medicine, science) where exclusively or predominantly Russian was used. It exasperates many pro-Russians. For example, only 4-5 years ago Nikolay Levchenko (then the secretary of Donetsk city council and now a MP) said that Ukrainian is good only for folksongs and in other cases it is useless.
I would say that 95% of those who speak Ukrainian can also speak Russian, but not the other way around. So for some people in the East and South introducing Russian as a second official language is the legal justification of why they shouldn't learn Ukrainian. They use Russian everywhere they want (according to the recent poll, 75% of the people of South-eastern regions don't see that the rights of Russian speakers are infringed upon) and having Russian as an official language wouldn't change anything in their life except that their anti-Ukrainian bias would have legal grounds.
Do you live in Ukraine? The news over here said that most of the Ukrainians are certain that Russia would invade. What do you think?

Would it be safe for a Russian to speak in Russian in the regions that are predominantly Ukrainian, especiallly with all these tensions going on? What if a tourist spoke Russian in a city like Kiev? And do you think it would become too dangerous for a tourist to visit there in a few months? I visited Kiev a few years ago so I'm not afraid to go there again right now.

[Sarmatian]

Interview (http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-04-21/ukraines-soldiers-at-one-post-fight-but-want-to-go-home) with several soldiers who were involved in beating back the protesters at Mariupol. It may be indicative of the mindset of Ukrainian soldiers.

Even though they're lauded as heroes in western Ukraine and one tycoon wants to give them a monetary reward in excess of 50,000$, they appear to be skeptical about the whole thing and just want to go home.

Some of what they said also casts doubt that the Russian professionals are the ones spearheading the attack. One of them said: "These pro-Russians here have no idea how to make petrol bombs. They made no damage at all, apart from burnt curtains. Perhaps they used vodka instead of petrol. In Kiev, they threw real stuff at us—they were pros,”.

They also still appear to be haunted by the events in Kiev: “You know they keep talking about the dead protesters in Kiev, but did anyone say a single good word about servicemen who were dying there in their dozens?”

EDIT: corrected link

[Gilrandir]

“easterners act Nazi.” How and when?


Attacking and beating people at peaceful pro-Ukrainian meetings in Kharkiv, dispersing the similar meeting in Slovyansk, attacking Gipsies there, threatening people expressing pro-Ukrainian views all over Donetsk and Lugansk region.




By the way, what about the waves of Crimean Tatar refugees who had their house marked and were near to be ethnically cleansed? Any news?
There are no waves, but still a steady trickle of Tatars (mostly, the old, women and children) to other regions of Ukraine. In my city they report of close on 200 refugees from Crimea (I don't know whether they are all Tatars or otherwise). Tatars prefer to leave for western regions.

[Gilrandir]

A lot of people in the central Ukraine are divided on how to address the protesters.


The source, please.

[Gilrandir]

The worse the protesters are presented, the more freedom they get to deal with them violently instead of addressing their issues.

Let's imagine a group of armed men in camouflage professionally storm a police station in the UK, the USA, Germany, Serbia, Israel or (especially) Russia and get hold of all the weapons in the arsenal. What would the governments of those countries do and would they term these men otherwise than terrorists?

[Gilrandir]

Interview (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?146724-Ukraine-in-a-thread/page74) with several soldiers who were involved in beating back the protesters at Mariupol. It may be indicative of the mindset of Ukrainian soldiers.

Can't open the link.

[Shaka_Khan]

@ Gilrandir,

You're very fluent in English. Are you an expatriate living in Ukraine, or are you a Ukrainian living abroad? When I went to Kiev, a lot of the Ukrainians could speak English, some fluently, others not. Are you one of them?

[Husar]

Annexing a part of another country's territory is not a valid reason to blame Russia?

No, Russia was forced by the invisible hand of the market, but that's not even what I was talking about because Russia didn't annex Crimea a long time ago. Although if they did, we'd just have to let history be history and not blame them for things they did long ago. I think after roughly 10 years countries can't be blamed anymore.

[Gilrandir]

Do you live in Ukraine?

I do.


The news over here said that most of the Ukrainians are certain that Russia would invade. What do you think?

The feeling of imminent threat was acute 2-3 weeks ago, now it has grown numb -perhaps some people have got used to living under stressful conditions, others still can't credit it might happen with all the Russian rhetoric of love for a brotherly nation and a long tradition of never considering Russia as an enemy. The overwhelming majority of people I communicate to (including those who voted for the Party of Regions and even worked in its local electoral headquarters) are shocked by what Russia has done and is still doing. I expect similar feeling would Canadians have if during the turmoils of Quebec referendum (which were of course not so serious) the USA intervened and bit away, say, Nova Scotia and kept an invasion force all along the border. Yet, the patriotic sentiment is growing apace (which I admit I never thought my fellow countrymen capable of) and very surprising for me is patriotism displayed in what has so far been considered a pro-Russian part of the country - Kherson, Mykolaiv, Dnipropetrovsk, Zaporizhya, and most astonishingly - Kharkiv and Odessa.
All this fills me with hope that Ukraine will preserve its integrity.


Would it be safe for a Russian to speak in Russian in the regions that are predominantly Ukrainian, especiallly with all these tensions going on? What if a tourist spoke Russian in a city like Kiev?

I can assure you, you can freely speak any language in any part of Ukraine (except Ukrainian in Donetsk and Lugansk regions which, as well as openly expressing pro-Ukrainian views, is reported to be unsafe now). The problem is most locals won't understand you unless you speak Ukrainian or Russian.
As for Kyiv, it is predominantly a Russian-speaking city, so speaking Russian there you would sound like a local. A TV journalist conducted an experiment a month ago: he went around restaurants and museums speaking Russian with the Moscow accent (which is rumored to cause immediate antipathy), sported his Russian passport and a scarf of a Russian football club most hated in Kyiv (as the legend goes); he even tried to start a row complaining that a restaurant didn't have a menu printed in Russian. During this tour he was being filmed by a hidden camera. AT NO PLACE was he treated without due respect and he never got "an attitude" he was provoking. Even after the row in the restaurant he was calmly explained that it was Ukraine so the menu must be in Ukrainian and told not to start a to-do otherwise he would be escorted off the premises.


And do you think it would become too dangerous for a tourist to visit there in a few months? I visited Kiev a few years ago so I'm not afraid to go there again right now.

You answered your own question yourself. Even during the most violent clashes the imminent danger zone in Kiyv was the downtown area, in other districts life went on pretty much the same. My daughter went on a bus tour to Kyiv with her class on the 27 of December last year. It is quite safe to do it SO FAR, but who knows what the situation in Kyiv (and indeed in Ukraine) would be even in a week. I expect everything to calm down after the presidential elections which are likely to be over by the middle of June. Yet I would not advise you to go there around May 9, when Victory Day is celebrated and Pro-Russians may rally their supporters and try pull off something unpleasant.

[Husar]

Let's imagine a group of armed men in camouflage professionally storm a police station in the UK, the USA, Germany, Serbia, Israel or (especially) Russia and get hold of all the weapons in the arsenal. What would the governments of those countries do and would they term these men otherwise than terrorists?

What would people who throw molotov cocktails at policemen, storm the parliament and threaten family members of members of the parliament be termed in these countries?

[Gilrandir]

@ Gilrandir,

You're very fluent in English. Are you an expatriate living in Ukraine, or are you a Ukrainian living abroad? When I went to Kiev, a lot of the Ukrainians could speak English, some fluently, others not. Are you one of them?
I'm surprised that you found A LOT of Ukrainians who could speak English. Perhaps it was during Euro 2012 when many English-speaking volunteers were involved. But even if it was otherwise, there are more people who can speak English in Kiyv than in smaller cities and towns. The farther you get from big cities (especially Kyiv) the less likely you are to meet such people.
As for me, speaking English is what I get paid for - I teach it.

[Gilrandir]

No, Russia was forced by the invisible hand of the market, but that's not even what I was talking about because Russia didn't annex Crimea a long time ago. Although if they did, we'd just have to let history be history and not blame them for things they did long ago. I think after roughly 10 years countries can't be blamed anymore.

So do whatever you want and wait for ten years - everything will be forgotten and forgiven, right?

[Gilrandir]

What would people who throw molotov cocktails at policemen, storm the parliament and threaten family members of members of the parliament be termed in these countries?

You tell me. You are a German. I guess the same. But, to my mind, one must observe the difference of purposes: Maidan wanted to overthrow a corrupt government, protesters in the east want to cut off a part of the country. Yet I see that many people here are ready to fling violence charges at Maidan protesters and turn a blind eye on (or even justify) similar things done in Eastern Ukraine now.

[Sarmatian]

Let's imagine a group of armed men in camouflage professionally storm a police station in the UK, the USA, Germany, Serbia, Israel or (especially) Russia and get hold of all the weapons in the arsenal. What would the governments of those countries do and would they term these men otherwise than terrorists?

I don't know, but that's exactly what protesters in Lviv and Kiev were doing. So, whatever do you think would have been acceptable then is acceptable now.


Can't open the link.

Sorry, wrong link. Here it is (http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-04-21/ukraines-soldiers-at-one-post-fight-but-want-to-go-home).

[Shaka_Khan]

I'm surprised that you found A LOT of Ukrainians who could speak English. Perhaps it was during Euro 2012 when many English-speaking volunteers were involved. But even if it was otherwise, there are more people who can speak English in Kiyv than in smaller cities and towns. The farther you get from big cities (especially Kyiv) the less likely you are to meet such people.
As for me, speaking English is what I get paid for - I teach it.
The people whom I talked to were mainly people who dealt with tourists such as the hotel desk clerk, the taxi drivers and the store clerks at the department store. One of the border guards at a train station near Poland was quite fluent too. She asked me why I was taking pictures of the train station saying that it was a military building. I told her that it was for facebook (partly because I was scared out of my wits, going out of my mind, and I didn't know what else to say. Another reason was because she was smiling in a friendly manner and I felt attracted to her and wanted to be friends on facebook.....) She made me erase the photos.

[Gilrandir]

I don't know, but that's exactly what protesters in Lviv and Kiev were doing. So, whatever do you think would have been acceptable then is acceptable now.

Those in Kyiv and Lviv were an angry mob, not what we see in Slovyansk and other Donetsk region cities. Organized platoons of professionally acting soldiers. Don't the latter remind you of the green men in Crimea? The article you linked to seems to hold a similar opinion of those men.

[Gilrandir]

The people whom I talked to were mainly people who dealt with tourists such as the hotel desk clerk, the taxi drivers and the store clerks at the department store. One of the border guards at a train station near Poland was quite fluent too. She asked me why I was taking pictures of the train station saying that it was a military building. I told her that it was for facebook (partly because I was scared out of my wits, going out of my mind, and I didn't know what else to say. Another reason was because she was smiling in a friendly manner and I felt attracted to her and wanted to be friends on facebook.....) She made me erase the photos.
Such people as you describe know English more or less - but again, they are paid to do that. The proficiency in English of those whose job does not require it is usually very poor.

[Husar]

So do whatever you want and wait for ten years - everything will be forgotten and forgiven, right?

Exactly, that's why I can't blame the US for Iraq anymore after all. It's in the past, doesn't matter anymore.


You tell me. You are a German. I guess the same. But, to my mind, one must observe the difference of purposes: Maidan wanted to overthrow a corrupt government, protesters in the east want to cut off a part of the country. Yet I see that many people here are ready to fling violence charges at Maidan protesters and turn a blind eye on (or even justify) similar things done in Eastern Ukraine now.

Maidan wanted to overthrow a corrupt, democratically elected President and the protesters in the east want to loosen themselves from a corrupt, unelected interim government that does not represent them, overthrew their elected president by throwing molotov cocktails at people and threatening members of parliament and then changed the county's course 180° without actual electoral backing.

As for turning a blind eye now, let's talk about who started this destabilization of the entire country and basically set a precedent for just taking what you want against the other half of the country.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

And painting protesters as anti-Semitic, racist bigots suits Kiev more. Don't forget that they, in addition to international propaganda battle, are also waging a domestic propaganda battle. A lot of people in the east is still divided on what to do. A lot of people in the central Ukraine are divided on how to address the protesters.

The worse the protesters are presented, the more freedom they get to deal with them violently instead of addressing their issues.

The conduct of the Ukrainian military, the exemplary conduct I should say, in Crimea indicates that Kiev knows it can't win a fist fight with the bear. With that in mind, it does not appear likely that provoking the protestors in the East serves their goal. Indeed, thus far it has been Russia (see Crimea) who has been escalating tensions as an excuse to deploy troops. Putin has already referred to his "right" to send troops into Ukraine - a right that was granted by the Russian Parliament. The implication being, of course, that Russia has a natural right to intervene directly in Ukraine.


And we know that US does all that and more, UK also (only on the much smaller scale). If we're basing our judgement on that USA could be responsible just as well.

I don't believe the US or UK has the means, will, or idealogical framework to embed agents in a country as natives for a matter of decades.


The anti-whatever views are more easily associated with Kiev. Don't forget that 5 ministerial positions, in addition to various other important state functions, in the Maidan government is held by what is effectively a nazi party and that only violent incident (actually two incidents) involving Jews happened in Kiev, prompting one of the chief Rabbis in Ukraine to urge Jews to leave Kiev and, possibly even the country, to be on the safe side.

As opposed to people who are explicitly RUSSIAN NATIONALISTS in a region in open revolt? Come on, it's as least as likely to be local bigots as Kiev - more likely given that Kiev has lost control of the region. Putin has appealed to the ethnic Russian population - that makes non-ethnic Russian suspect - and nobody's more suspect than the Jews.


There were only about 200 or so of them distributed in a very short time by three men and then they disappeared. The men as well as pamphlets.

And these are more likely to be locals from the region supporting Kiev than FSB agents?

[Gilrandir]

As for turning a blind eye now, let's talk about who started this destabilization of the entire country and basically set a precedent for just taking what you want against the other half of the country.
As I have repeatedly shown (and the developments in South-Eastern regions bear my ruminations out), there is no other HALF of the country. The majority of people and business elites all over Ukraine have acknowledged the new government and are ready to cooperate with it and pin hopes on it leading us out of the dead end Yanukovych has brought us to. In my view, it is he who started the destabilization you are talking about by proclaiming a course towards association with the EU (which noboby expected him to at first and nobody believed him to see it through), then backing out so provoking Maidan to gather and so on.
It is true that in Donetsk and Lugansk regions many people are distrustful of the new government but they are equally disillusioned in the Party of Regions and Yanukovych who, as they claim, betrayed them. This sentiment is actively propelled (and assisted both in arms and men) by Russia. Still, there are as many (and perhaps even more) people there who don't want any federalization, still less separation from Ukraine. But they are mostly scared or passive and rely on the central government to solve the problem.
So while a month ago what you said was true, there are no halves now.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Exactly, that's why I can't blame the US for Iraq anymore after all. It's in the past, doesn't matter anymore.



Maidan wanted to overthrow a corrupt, democratically elected President and the protesters in the east want to loosen themselves from a corrupt, unelected interim government that does not represent them, overthrew their elected president by throwing molotov cocktails at people and threatening members of parliament and then changed the county's course 180° without actual electoral backing.

As for turning a blind eye now, let's talk about who started this destabilization of the entire country and basically set a precedent for just taking what you want against the other half of the country.

The situations are not equivalent - the current situation in the East will prevent an effective Presidential Poll, which is what the Interim Government was aiming for - a new democratic mandate. you've also conveniently ignored the timeline - that the ACTIONS of the current Interim Government have dictated by Russian aggression. It's unlikely they would have signed that agreement with the EU, or that the EU would have agreed, otherwise.

[Sarmatian]

The conduct of the Ukrainian military, the exemplary conduct I should say, in Crimea indicates that Kiev knows it can't win a fist fight with the bear. With that in mind, it does not appear likely that provoking the protestors in the East serves their goal. Indeed, thus far it has been Russia (see Crimea) who has been escalating tensions as an excuse to deploy troops. Putin has already referred to his "right" to send troops into Ukraine - a right that was granted by the Russian Parliament. The implication being, of course, that Russia has a natural right to intervene directly in Ukraine.

So, what you're telling me is that Kiev has no interest in discrediting the protesters? Am I reading it right?


As opposed to people who are explicitly RUSSIAN NATIONALISTS in a region in open revolt? Come on, it's as least as likely to be local bigots as Kiev - more likely given that Kiev has lost control of the region. Putin has appealed to the ethnic Russian population - that makes non-ethnic Russian suspect - and nobody's more suspect than the Jews.

Lviv was in open revolt. They stormed police stations, government buildings, military depots, armed themselves and proclaimed themselves independent until they get the government they want in Kiev.

If you're trying to argue that just because the protesters in the east involve Russian population, they are more likely to target Jews, that's not even worthy of a response.


And these are more likely to be locals from the region supporting Kiev than FSB agents?

Unless I see a proof that Baldrick is working in the FSB, I'll continue to think that they aren't so stupid to try to discredit eastern protesters.

It usually boils down to the question "who benefited?". Protesters in the east didn't, that's for sure. Therefore it is unlikely they did it. It is equally unlikely FSB did it, for the same reason.

Now, it is possible that a few idiots from either side thought it was a good idea (or they could've been totally uninvolved), I agree, but it doesn't seem likely.

Three masked men, appearing suddenly, distributing 200 official looking leaflets very quickly and disappearing without a trace, does point to something a little better organised than three skinheads in a basement with a printer.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

So, what you're telling me is that Kiev has no interest in discrediting the protesters? Am I reading it right?

No interest in provoking the KGB Colonel who runs Russia, more like.


Lviv was in open revolt. They stormed police stations, government buildings, military depots, armed themselves and proclaimed themselves independent until they get the government they want in Kiev.

Yes - they're all terrible people there: http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/commentators/to-see-what-ukraines-future-may-be-just-look-at-lvivs-shameful-past-9178968.html

Come back when Lviv ask Poland to annex them.


If you're trying to argue that just because the protesters in the east involve Russian population, they are more likely to target Jews, that's not even worthy of a response.

Errrrrrrr

Go back, re-read. I said Putin has used Russian ETHNIC nationalism as a dog-whistle to stir up unrest. By defining the Eastern issue as an ethnic one, he guarantees that the racists will be attracted to him.


Unless I see a proof that Baldrick is working in the FSB, I'll continue to think that they aren't so stupid to try to discredit eastern protesters.

It usually boils down to the question "who benefited?". Protesters in the east didn't, that's for sure. Therefore it is unlikely they did it. It is equally unlikely FSB did it, for the same reason.

Quo Vadis?

OK - who benefits from the collapse of the Geneva deal?

Putin and his military.

I refer you to the "Little Green Men" in Crimea - it doesn't matter if everyone works out it's the FSB, so long as Putin can claim Ukrainians are Fascists and invade.


Now, it is possible that a few idiots from either side thought it was a good idea (or they could've been totally uninvolved), I agree, but it doesn't seem likely.

Three masked men, appearing suddenly, distributing 200 official looking leaflets very quickly and disappearing without a trace, does point to something a little better organised than three skinheads in a basement with a printer.

And Ukraine can't organise a daisy-up from inside a Vodka distillery flooded with Vodka right now. That's because, you know, the INTERIM government is trying to to become permanent and thence get themselves shot.

Which leaves the FSB.

Since Crimea Putin has been operating a sort of Brute Force diplomacy, the minimum amount of effort for the thinnest pretext to act.

[Sarmatian]

No interest in provoking the KGB Colonel who runs Russia, more like. Unless you're willing to argue it was FSB who organized and sent Ukrainian army which took the airfield and tried retake control by force, you don't have much of a case. Obviously, they did much more, and leaflets are generally a "safe" way of discrediting the protesters. Just your normal, everyday propaganda, which Kiev didn't shy away from since day 1.

What are you talking about.


Yes - they're all terrible people there: http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/commentators/to-see-what-ukraines-future-may-be-just-look-at-lvivs-shameful-past-9178968.html

Come back when Lviv ask Poland to annex them.

I don't know about their morals and I don't feel the need to guess.


Errrrrrrr

Go back, re-read. I said Putin has used Russian ETHNIC nationalism as a dog-whistle to stir up unrest. By defining the Eastern issue as an ethnic one, he guarantees that the racists will be attracted to him.

Quite a leap there. So far, there has been no problems, either in Crimea or in Donetsk region, despite "evidence". When it comes to playing on the ethnic card, Maidan government/protesters are way ahead of Russia.



Quo Vadis?

OK - who benefits from the collapse of the Geneva deal?

Putin and his military.

I refer you to the "Little Green Men" in Crimea - it doesn't matter if everyone works out it's the FSB, so long as Putin can claim Ukrainians are Fascists and invade.

And in order to achieve that, he had leaflets that present eastern protesters as nazis printed and distributed? Let's try a new game - say it out loud before you write it.


And Ukraine can't organise a daisy-up from inside a Vodka distillery flooded with Vodka right now. That's because, you know, the INTERIM government is trying to to become permanent and thence get themselves shot.

Which leaves the FSB.

Since Crimea Putin has been operating a sort of Brute Force diplomacy, the minimum amount of effort for the thinnest pretext to act.

I'm amazed through what kind of mental workout you must be going through to spin things in such a way.

[Beskar]

I have to be honest, Sarmatian. I was thinking today about you when I remembered you lived in Serbia and your views on this matter. Serbia, being the inheritors of Yugoslavia, you might have some opinions and views about ethics and piecemealing, both from the formation of that country and its dissolution and the role of foreign powers 'meddling' in affairs.

If you have the time and interest to indulge me. Could you illustrate some of your personal feelings involved in the Ukraine situation with how things have occurred back at home, perhaps any lessons learnt from those experiences which might be helpful in frameworking this situation under a different light which being from a rather unique situation to the rest of the board, you may have knowledge of.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Lol this dude is such a stereotype. Invade a country? Mint a new coin!

'Putin coins' mark Crimea annexation http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-news-from-elsewhere-27117241

I believe he would prefer the label "classic."

Calling him a stereotype is only one step short of "cliché."

[Pannonian]

I have to be honest, Sarmatian. I was thinking today about you when I remembered you lived in Serbia and your views on this matter. Serbia, being the inheritors of Yugoslavia, you might have some opinions and views about ethics and piecemealing, both from the formation of that country and its dissolution and the role of foreign powers 'meddling' in affairs.

If you have the time and interest to indulge me. Could you illustrate some of your personal feelings involved in the Ukraine situation with how things have occurred back at home, perhaps any lessons learnt from those experiences which might be helpful in frameworking this situation under a different light which being from a rather unique situation to the rest of the board, you may have knowledge of.

He's already pointed out that the pro-western uprising was a great deal less spontaneous than some would have us believe, with leaflets detailing standard protester uniforms that are identical to those supplied to him in the anti-Milosevic demos back in the day.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Quite a leap there. So far, there has been no problems, either in Crimea or in Donetsk region, despite "evidence". When it comes to playing on the ethnic card, Maidan government/protesters are way ahead of Russia.

Except the leader of the Tartars being banned from Crimea for 5 years...


And in order to achieve that, he had leaflets that present eastern protesters as nazis printed and distributed? Let's try a new game - say it out loud before you write it.

Leaflets now being derided as obviously fake - and apparently bolstering the Russian position.

I dunno, maybe I'm giving Putin too much credit.


I'm amazed through what kind of mental workout you must be going through to spin things in such a way.

Should have read "trying to not become permanent...

I must get a new keyboard that has the letters printed on it...

Anyway.

[Beskar]

He's already pointed out that the pro-western uprising was a great deal less spontaneous than some would have us believe, with leaflets detailing standard protester uniforms that are identical to those supplied to him in the anti-Milosevic demos back in the day.

He showed a picture comparing posters between Kviv and those in the Egyptian uprising.

I don't believe he has touched much on home-issues in the thread, and was wondering if he had any in depth thoughts on them if he is willing to share as I had some intellectual curiosity. If Sarmatian has already done so, would appreciate a redirection to that posting or so. :bow:

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-27118875

There it goes - local politician murdered.

[Shaka_Khan]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-27118875

There it goes - local politician murdered.
That's a very conspicuous hat that the pro-Russian soldier is wearing.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

That's a very conspicuous hat that the pro-Russian soldier is wearing.

The Grenadier Guard will advance. Fo--WAHD!

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

That's a very conspicuous hat that the pro-Russian soldier is wearing.

It is - it's also the same guy - you can tell by the camo pattern on his gear. Whether it's the same guy as in the group pose photo - I'm not certain, but it may well be. At least - he appears to have all-modern Russian gear and be highly mobile.

[Gilrandir]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-27118875

There it goes - local politician murdered.
Some journalists (including western ones) were kidnapped in Slovyansk. The head of Horlivka city police department was kidnapped and is held hostage in Slovyansk. The separatists want to ransom him for the weapons that are kept locked in the police department.
One more reason to keep negotiating - those are not at all terrorists - just a bunch of local freedom fighters.

[Gilrandir]

Lviv was in open revolt. They stormed police stations, government buildings, military depots, armed themselves and proclaimed themselves independent until they get the government they want in Kiev.


The bold is wrong. And the word "independence" was not used - they said they would not obey any orders from Kyiv. There was no talk of creating a separate state or separating Lviv region with the consequent aim to join another country. And they vacated the premises after the "dictatorship laws" of the 16th of January were canceled and amnesty offered.
Now amnesty bill was registered in the parliament. Let us see how soon the separatists will follow the pattern in the east.
It is true, there was the second storming caused by the massacre of 18-20 of February.
Any massacres in the East? Wait, no, according to the pattern that is to happen after the separatists vacate the administrative buildings.

[Kagemusha]

It is - it's also the same guy - you can tell by the camo pattern on his gear. Whether it's the same guy as in the group pose photo - I'm not certain, but it may well be. At least - he appears to have all-modern Russian gear and be highly mobile.

I kind of pointed out a week a go that there are again "little green men" at the move, when i posted the video of "pro Russian protesters" storming the police station. .~;)

[Brenus]

Wahoo... First time I see special infiltrating special forces posing in a pictures during operation... Mind you I understand that this secret agent posing with this hat will go unnoticed... And he probably owns a car as he is extremely mobile, as an astute observer will notice. Probably team-up with the old woman, I say...

[Kagemusha]

Wahoo... First time I see special infiltrating special forces posing in a pictures during operation... Mind you I understand that this secret agent posing with this hat will go unnoticed... And he probably owns a car as he is extremely mobile, as an astute observer will notice. Probably team-up with the old woman, I say...

This is the video i posted earlier:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/news/video-1090871/Firefight-pro-Russian-separatists-Kramatorsk-police-HQ.html

It is the guy and few of his buddies. Posing as "pro Russian protesters". He did though leave his hat home. Still these guys seem to try and make more effort to look like militia compared to the black sea marines at Crimea. Problem with them is that they dont act like irregulars/ militia.

If someone is interested. You can see from about from 3:30 forward how the Russian troops herd in the actual protesters, once they deem the area secured. Unfortunately someone inside the police station disagrees with them and some limited firefight ensues.

[Gilrandir]

This is the video i posted earlier:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/news/video-1090871/Firefight-pro-Russian-separatists-Kramatorsk-police-HQ.html

It is the guy and few of his buddies. Posing as "pro Russian protesters". He did though leave his hat home. Still these guys seem to try and make more effort to look like militia compared to the black sea marines at Crimea. Problem with them is that they dont act like irregulars/ militia.

If someone is interested. You can see from about from 3:30 forward how the Russian troops herd in the actual protesters, once they deem the area secured. Unfortunately someone inside the police station disagrees with them and some limited firefight ensues.
One more proof that those green men are Russians is the word for "kerbstone" they use. It is shibboleth that can help to differentiate a Russian speaking Russian from a Ukrainian speaking Russian - like American "elevator" and British "lift" or American "truck" and British "lorry".

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Wahoo... First time I see special infiltrating special forces posing in a pictures during operation... Mind you I understand that this secret agent posing with this hat will go unnoticed... And he probably owns a car as he is extremely mobile, as an astute observer will notice. Probably team-up with the old woman, I say...

Maybe they don't care?

Or it's more important for the local thugs to know they have Russian backup than to hide it from the West.

[Sarmatian]

He showed a picture comparing posters between Kviv and those in the Egyptian uprising.

I don't believe he has touched much on home-issues in the thread, and was wondering if he had any in depth thoughts on them if he is willing to share as I had some intellectual curiosity. If Sarmatian has already done so, would appreciate a redirection to that posting or so. :bow:

I did share bits and pieces here and there.

Current Ukrainian bears resemblance to the break-up Yugoslavia and deposing of Milosevic 14 years. For the former, I was a kid when it started and teenager when it ended so I can't say I'm an expert on it, and, in the latter, I was personally involved. I didn't call the shots by any means, but I did more than my fair share.

There are differences, though. The technology advanced significantly. Today, with mobile phones, everyone's cameraman and he can share his shots with a press of a button instantly with the entire world. That kind of transparency makes it harder for all sides to hide their misdeeds, and forces them to at least think twice before attempting anything that the general public might find questionable.

For my personal insight in this kind of conflict, I can only say that the most important thing is not to demonise "the other side" and to try and spill as little blood as possible, preferably none, but that is rarely possible.
Whatever happens, you'll have to live with that "other side". If not exactly with them, at least next to them. They won't go away after the conflict, no matter who wins.
A year ago they were doing this rerun of news aired during the Yugoslav crisis, with commentaries. They've shown a particular piece aired in 1991 - Croatian nationalists surrounded two tanks of Yugoslavian army and demanded their surrender. They were screaming, throwing stuff at them (nothing that could damage the tanks - cans, bottles and firecrackers, that sort of stuff), but the psychological effect was immense. It sent shivers down my spine due to the pure hatred exhibited. After some time, the first tank opened the hatch and a few kids emerged. I don't know their nationality, it was still Yugoslavian conscript army, so they could have been Serbian or Macedonian or even Croatian, I have no idea really. The look on their faces was something that stays with you. They couldn't have been more than 20 years old and they were scared ****less. The first one that came out was so confused he was crying and was delirious with fear, I don't think he even heard the small mob demanding that he surrenders his weapons. I wouldn't be awfully surprised if he wet himself. The entire scene was something that makes your stomach turn and something that could easily turn the public opinion. Even when I was watching it a year ago, there was feeling of disgust in my gut and had to remind myself that it happened a long time ago. But there was a catch with that story - Milosevic propaganda team didn't air the video immediately. They waited several months, until he needed to turn the public opinion against Croatia and then they aired it.

So, the more you demonize a side, the bloodier it gets it takes longer to heal. Not only that, it easier to reignite the conflict later. The best "insight" I can offer is don't trust the politicians and always remember that those on the other side are normal everyday people and that after the conflict is over, they will go home to their everyday concerns, which are, for the most part, same as yours. You don't have to just ignore the propaganda, at times you have to actively resist it. Encourage dialogue and talk, and don't allow the hate to be institutionalized. The more violent it gets, the harder it gets go back.

[Kadagar_AV]

That's a very conspicuous hat that the pro-Russian soldier is wearing.

Hey, maybe it's just a bad hair day...

Anyway... Either Ukraine has the best trained militias in the world, or those are extremely obviously Spetznaz.

Looking back at my old platoon and squad and comparing, they move with extreme calm and efficiency. Just look at how they cover all the angles no matter what, or their general coordination and crystal clear roles of individual soldiers in each stage of the take-over.

Impressive, to say the least.

Well done the Russians!

I refuse to take a political stance on this whole ordeal, as I have very little knowledge not to mention interest. It IS however alarmingly fun to follow Putin's moves on the national and international chessboard... Damn thay bein clever them Russies...

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

OK - this is weird - the BBC is showing the worst comparison for these photos: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-27104904

The obvious one is the guy in the hat - but they chose to show two different masked gunmen.

The bearded guy clearly pops up in two photos in Ukraine, not convinced it's the same guy as in Georgia or the group shot, though.

The really obvious guy is the one in the Cossack hat - and as Kad says - these guys are not even pretending.

[Kagemusha]

Ukrainian troops attack Sloviansk: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27138300

I am afraid this is exactly what Putin wanted to happen. Apparently up to 5 pro Russian protesters have been killed by the Ukrainian task force. Im not happy with the situation at all.

[Gilrandir]

Even when I was watching it a year ago, there was feeling of disgust in my gut and had to remind myself that it happened a long time ago.

According to Husar, if it was more than 10 years ago you shouldn't be having such feelings - only pervasive forgivenness and enwrapping forgettingness.


The best "insight" I can offer is don't trust the politicians and always remember that those on the other side are normal everyday people and that after the conflict is over, they will go home to their everyday concerns, which are, for the most part, same as yours.
I don't think those in Slovyansk are normal everyday Ukrainian people - they are Russian special assignment force who murder local deputies, kidnap journalists, terrorize the neighborhood and do everything to wreck the elections. As the self-styled mayor of Slovyansk put it, "We will hang them by the balls; there will be no election." Now that hanging business sounds somehow familiar....

[Husar]

According to Husar, if it was more than 10 years ago you shouldn't be having such feelings - only pervasive forgivenness and enwrapping forgettingness.

It's actually what other people have said and I just repeated it...

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/25/ukraine-pro-russian-separatists-european-observers-captive-slavyansk

Yeah... Freedom Fighters.

Kidnapping journalists and now observers.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

On this note, why haven't any Russian troops been detained and paraded for all to laugh at? Seems like that ought to be a top priority, in fact not having any captured Russians to show off really gives the protesters in the east a real barrier of legitimacy, even as they harass observers and seem to take orders from Moscow.

That's like asking why the Taliban didn't capture any SAS - the disparity in tech and training means you'll only get the guys dead.

[Rhyfelwyr]

For what it's worth, the machination of Putin doesn't change the fact that the Russian-identifying people of eastern Ukraine have legitimate aspirations to political autonomy.

I feel for them a bit, they are evidently not as well educated and as worldly as the Maidan-types in the western parts. They haven't really used social media to get their story across, they don't have pretty girls (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hvds2AIiWLA) tugging at your heartstrings. The fact they haven't been doing these things says to me right away that they are poor and disenfranchised.

Which of course makes the aspirations of the Maidan-types no less legitimate. I'm just saying that we shouldn't lose sight of the ordinary people on both sides of this conflict, or neglect them amidst some sort of Cold War-style proxy war.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Thats just hollywood talk. If Russia is as involved as they seem to be, they should be there for the taking. The "well organized" dudes in "matching camo" aren't exactly delta force or anything. Sometimes they look downright undisciplined.

At the very least it calls into question whether the Kiev government is capable of doing anything other than make it worse.

You think?

How prepared would British soldiers be to go into Scotland and kidnap American GI's?

Russia has hit Ukraine psychologically - and while the Russians are happy to brutalise Ukrainians, the Ukrainians don't appear to have reached that point yet.

[Husar]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/25/ukraine-pro-russian-separatists-european-observers-captive-slavyansk

Yeah... Freedom Fighters.

Kidnapping journalists and now observers.

That's actually pretty paranoid and stupid.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

That's actually pretty paranoid and stupid.

The article, or kidnapping international observers?

It's only stupid if you assume that the end-goal is to gain greater autonomy, and not to annex land for Russia.

[Fragony]

Hey, maybe it's just a bad hair day...

Anyway... Either Ukraine has the best trained militias in the world, or those are extremely obviously Spetznaz.

Looking back at my old platoon and squad and comparing, they move with extreme calm and efficiency. Just look at how they cover all the angles no matter what, or their general coordination and crystal clear roles of individual soldiers in each stage of the take-over.

Impressive, to say the least.

Well done the Russians!

I refuse to take a political stance on this whole ordeal, as I have very little knowledge not to mention interest. It IS however alarmingly fun to follow Putin's moves on the national and international chessboard... Damn thay bein clever them Russies...

Without having any military experience, they indeed seem to know exactly what they are doing even to a layman's eye. No ordinary militia, they look very professional.

[Kagemusha]

On this note, why haven't any Russian troops been detained and paraded for all to laugh at? Seems like that ought to be a top priority, in fact not having any captured Russians to show off really gives the protesters in the east a real barrier of legitimacy, even as they harass observers and seem to take orders from Moscow.

That might be bit hard to achieve for the few motorized platoons of Ukrainian infantry we have so far seen in Eastern Ukraine. Week a go it was pretty much other way around when the Russian special forces paraded the vehicles of the last task force around in the area after capturing it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmyENU-TLTw

[Brenus]

“Kidnapping journalists and now observers” That should go against your opinion: real professionals don’t do this. I remember having guide-lines about how to manipulate journalists when I was in the army. Clearly the pro-Russia amateurs don’t know how to handle media…

“Freedom Fighters.” And all freedom fighters are supposed to be nice and kind? Especially with media that are hostile to them and are reporting only in one side?

[Husar]

The article, or kidnapping international observers?

It's only stupid if you assume that the end-goal is to gain greater autonomy, and not to annex land for Russia.

Kidnapping international observers. And I find it stupid regardless of their goal. But it clearly shows that everybody there is really paranoid by now. The Maidan movement was sold as stabilizing the country and it did the exact opposite, regardless of the good intentions it may have started with.

[Gilrandir]

Kidnapping international observers. And I find it stupid regardless of their goal. But it clearly shows that everybody there is really paranoid by now.
Their aim is to cull as many hostages as they can to use them as a shield when (or if) they are attacked. Separatists in Slovyansk are said to establish themselves in kindergartens and schools as well.

[Gilrandir]

Kidnapping international observers. And I find it stupid regardless of their goal. But it clearly shows that everybody there is really paranoid by now.
Their aim is to cull as many hostages as they can to use them as a shield when (or if) they are attacked. Separatists in Slovyansk are said to establish themselves in kindergartens and schools as well.
Sorry, it somehow repeated itself.

[Brenus]

"Their aim is to cull as many hostages as they can to use them as a shield " How do you know this (you should have add "human" shield, it makes it more vile)?

[Sarmatian]

"Their aim is to cull as many hostages as they can to use them as a shield " How do you know this (you should have add "human" shield, it makes it more vile)?

Because they're pro-Russian. They eat babies and kick puppies.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Their aim is to cull as many hostages as they can to use them as a shield when (or if) they are attacked. Separatists in Slovyansk are said to establish themselves in kindergartens and schools as well.
Sorry, it somehow repeated itself.

Actually - I suspect this is being used as a bargaining chip - Russia will "negotiate" the freedom of the hostages, making it politically more difficult to impose further sanctions. At the least, it could delay sanctions, at worst it can be used to claim the US et al show "bad faith" by imposing sanctions while/after Russia is negotiating to free NATO-aligned hostages.

[Kadagar_AV]

I hate conflicts without an apparent "good side".

Come on Western World, we can do better than this with the money we spend on psy-ops :soapbox:


I think the basis of the problem we in the West face is something along the lines of:

USA: Putin be evil 'cause he be gay.
Europe: Actually Putin is evil because of his anti-gay policies.
USA: Nevah mind. He be evil 'cause he be socialist.
Europe: Hey! We are socialistic! He is evil because he is authoritarian!

Average Western Voter: *Mind Blown*

[Gilrandir]

Because they're pro-Russian. They eat babies and kick puppies.
It is what Putin said about his troops blocking Ukrainian army garrisons in Crimea: "We will put women with children before our troops, not behind, but before; I will see how they will shoot at the women and children". Evidently women with children are not enough for these guys. And it is a barganing chip as well, so two birds with one stone.
But I can't help but wonder how you can still be fond of anyone doing either. Your "never demonize anyone (except the nazis)" motto turns into "kidnapping and killing the kidnapped is OK if there is a noble cause behind it (except the nazis)". My congratulations.
I'm sorry, there are some nazis on the pro-Russian side.
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2014/04/east-ukraine-crisis-fascist-ma-2014416145823826439.html
Will we hear any "scum" and wish to hang anyone now?

[Gilrandir]

Putin gave out medals to Russian troops "For returning Crimea".
12827
Check out the date when the Reconquista started: February 20. It is when Yanukovych was signing his treaty with the opposition leaders. The president that Russia still considers equal was at power but Russia was already opening its jaws to bite away a piece of brotherly meat.

[Brenus]

“Your "never demonize anyone (except the nazis)" motto turns into "kidnapping and killing the kidnapped is OK if there is a noble cause behind it (except the nazis)". My congratulations."

:wall:I don’t have to demonise Nazi. They did it themselves. Or do you equal Nazi and Russians? Do you think Nazis had a point? That they were not that evil?
Nazis don’t have a noble cause, so they can’t kill for a noble cause.
YOUR choice of words for journalist arrested (or OSCE) was done on the purpose to equal the “pro-Russia” to Mafiosi, to deny them any political legitimacy but as some wrote here mere thugs and outlaws.
About you link, when I studied History at University, long time ago, the first thing I was told was to look at the author: Your: Opinion (not fact)of “ Halya Coynash a journalist and member of the Kharkiv Human Rights Group”. Right: OPINION. KHARKIV. JOURNALIST. HUMAN RIGHTS GROUP. That is a lot of suspicions for one person on her impartiality.
And reading the text just confirm it: “Russia's propaganda machine”, “the armed "federalists" (do note the use of brackets)” , “puppet government "elected" (note again the use of brackets, and till now, the Ukrainian authorities that size power in Kiev are still not elected)”, and I can carry on and on.
All this to tell you should read what you link.

“It is what Putin said about his troops blocking Ukrainian army garrisons in Crimea”: When and where? No vague indication, please, date and place. I will check, because I don’t see why Putin would have the need to say this. I remind you that the invasion of Crimea cost less lives than the liberation (or attempt) of other parts of Ukraine at the moment.

[Sarmatian]

“Your "never demonize anyone (except the nazis)" motto turns into "kidnapping and killing the kidnapped is OK if there is a noble cause behind it (except the nazis)". My congratulations."

:wall:I don’t have to demonise Nazi. They did it themselves. Or do you equal Nazi and Russians? Do you think Nazis had a point? That they were not that evil?
Nazis don’t have a noble cause, so they can’t kill for a noble cause.

I think that was directed at me.

The problem is, I got really bored with correcting his sensationalist statements on every single page. Rock on Gilrandir.

So, we were at "human shield, brotherly meat and premeditated medals"... Do go on.

[Husar]

Their aim is to cull as many hostages as they can to use them as a shield when (or if) they are attacked. Separatists in Slovyansk are said to establish themselves in kindergartens and schools as well.

Eh, I just got new information. Apparently the Bulgarian member had a notebook with him where he had written about his spying activities aginst Ukraine and Russia, about meetings with other spies and so on. Using an international observer mission to send spies into a conflict zone is also stupid by the way. And it's weird because other sources don't mention as Bulgarian member.

[gaelic cowboy]

Eh, I just got new information. Apparently the Bulgarian member had a notebook with him where he had written about his spying activities aginst Ukraine and Russia, about meetings with other spies and so on. Using an international observer mission to send spies into a conflict zone is also stupid by the way. And it's weird because other sources don't mention as Bulgarian member.

That's a load of :daisy: a spy who writes down on a notepad what he is doing.

Also its been denied that a bulgarian was with the team.

[Sarmatian]

Whatever it was, unarmed observers should never be arrested or detained.

[Gilrandir]

“Your "never demonize anyone (except the nazis)" motto turns into "kidnapping and killing the kidnapped is OK if there is a noble cause behind it (except the nazis)". My congratulations."

:wall:I don’t have to demonise Nazi. They did it themselves. Or do you equal Nazi and Russians? Do you think Nazis had a point? That they were not that evil?
Nazis don’t have a noble cause, so they can’t kill for a noble cause.
YOUR choice of words for journalist arrested (or OSCE) was done on the purpose to equal the “pro-Russia” to Mafiosi, to deny them any political legitimacy but as some wrote here mere thugs and outlaws.
About you link, when I studied History at University, long time ago, the first thing I was told was to look at the author: Your: Opinion (not fact)of “ Halya Coynash a journalist and member of the Kharkiv Human Rights Group”. Right: OPINION. KHARKIV. JOURNALIST. HUMAN RIGHTS GROUP. That is a lot of suspicions for one person on her impartiality.
And reading the text just confirm it: “Russia's propaganda machine”, “the armed "federalists" (do note the use of brackets)” , “puppet government "elected" (note again the use of brackets, and till now, the Ukrainian authorities that size power in Kiev are still not elected)”, and I can carry on and on.
All this to tell you should read what you link.

So, you mean to say that there is no Russian propaganda machine? OK, have it your own way. I have a colleague whose grandmother lives in Rostov (Russia) and her mother went to see her (the grandmother) in the middle of March. She spent there a week and then called her daughter (in Ukraine) and asked her what foodstuffs and how much she must bring. When my colleague asked her why she wants to do that she answered that TV was constantly telling them that Ukraine is on the verge of famine, food lines are everywhere and the shelves in the supermarkets are empty while the prices are rocketing. When they my colleague and her mother got to the root of it, they figured out that all this happened after Yatsenyuk saying that Ukrainians will have to tighten their belts. Russian TV developed the story dramatically. And my colleague's mom believed it with all her heart though she spent there JUST A WEEK. So no Russian propaganda machine - just honest journalists who carry on their duty with dignity.
As for the second quote, here is the complete sentence you took it from: "It is no accident that the puppet government "elected" after armed Russian soldiers seized government buildings in the Crimea immediately closed down almost all Ukrainian media and gave the broadcasting frequencies to Russian channels".
It is the government of CRIMEA that is meant here, not the government of UKRAINE!! Ukrainian government didn't close down the Ukrainian media in Crimea.
And Ukrainian government is appointed not elected anyway. So, do what you preach: you should read what I link.

“It is what Putin said about his troops blocking Ukrainian army garrisons in Crimea”: When and where? No vague indication, please, date and place. I will check, because I don’t see why Putin would have the need to say this.
I hear and see a lot more than I refer to. Unfortunately (for you), most of it is either in Russian or in Ukrainian, so it would be of no use to quote or link to the video. More unfortunately, my halting proficiency in using computers in general and internet in particular (plus lack of time) doesn't allow me to search for what I heard and saw with English translation or referred to in an article in English.
So, either you have to believe me or disbelieve me (the same with Rostov grandmother story). But everything I say gets confirmed some time later in sources you can understand or/and trust. Then I read it in the articles linked to by some people here on the forum.
I saw Putin giving an interview to Russian TV journalists during the Crimean operation and heard him say what I quoted verbatim. I don't remember the exact date - days are so eventful that I can barely remember who said anything of moment a week ago.
I saw Putin saying that there are no Russian soldiers in Crimea (in the middle of March) and in the middle of April he readily admitted that behind Crimean self-defence there always were Russian army detachments. And now there are medals pouring out aplenty. Again no link. So take it or leave it.
I rather expect you to leave it as you are likely to believe, well, what you like to believe, link or no. If there is no link it means I'm making it all up; when there is a link - the source is dubiuos and untrustworthy.
It is Sarmatian all over again. He is sure there are lily-white, fluffy and cute guys in Donetsk region (no Nazis, oh no, my precious). He is sure if I write something unsavoury about them it is because they are pro-Russians, not because they do something unsavoury. He claimed that people in central Ukraine were in two minds how to treat eastern separatists. When I asked for the source he just disregarded the post.
After all, there other people here who may trust more what I write about without links after every second word.

[Gilrandir]

The problem is, I got really bored with correcting his sensationalist statements on every single page. Rock on Gilrandir.

So, we were at "human shield, brotherly meat and premeditated medals"... Do go on.
It seems that you are the only person here (oh, I'm sorry, there is Brenus as well) who have a problem with what I say. When someone defends his stance it is boring. This someone should just shut up, bow to the exalted one who disagreed with him and never dare to offer his vision of events any more.
Your whole attitide to the situation is: "Ukraine landed itself into this pickle by inviting Nazis to rule it, so whatever is done by Ukraine is wrong and serve it right. Russia has a good cause to interfere and pro-Russains are good as long as they fight back the Nazis in Kyiv". The proofs that it might be otherwise are boring sensationalist statements. But when you post pictures of uniforms of Egyptian protesters and compare them to those of Maidan it is a uniquely insightful observation worth a pulitzer. So, no Russian nazis involved in Donetsk, medals are fake, the date on them is photoshopped... Rock on Sarmatian.

[Husar]

The dates could also refer to the beginning of the acute crisys or so but then I'm not familiar with medal-dates. I haven't even seen a rifle from the inside.

[Viking]

Putin, the considerate person that he is, is very worried about the status of the Russian language in Ukraine. Therefore, we expect Russia, having been under his control for so long, to be a model example:


Little attention is paid, they say, to the fact that, unlike the Russian minority in Ukraine, the Ukrainian minority in Russia has no access to schools or universities in the Ukrainian language

[...]

"In Russia, Ukrainians are not considered a separate nation, and the Ukrainian language is considered a dialect of Russian," said Gasan Gusejnov, a professor at the National Research University's Higher School of Economics in Moscow, who has written on Ukrainian identity.

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2014/04/russia-ukraine-crisis-minority-under-pressure-2014423104132154242.html

Well, if that's the case; then Russian is conversely a dialect of Ukrainian and does not need legal recognition in Ukraine in addition to Ukrainian; so problem solved. Putin has led the way for us.

[Brenus]

“And Ukrainian government is appointed not elected anyway. So, do what you preach: you should read what I link.” Ok. I re-phrase: You should understand what I said. The ORIGIN of your link is highly suspect of anti-Russian propaganda. The sentences I isolated used a very defamatory language against all the Pro-Russian movement. It was not about what she claim under an opinion.

“So, you mean to say that there is no Russian propaganda machine?” Of course there is. Never denied it, and as I said before, I don’t support Putin in his effort to push to the west. What I am saying is his push was (is) the result of one, a constant push of NATO near the Russian Borders, linked with a very unfriendly language against Russian (still considered as USSR), and two, a real political problem in Ukraine, increased by EU and the presence of 4 Nazi in the actual executive power.

“I saw Putin saying that there are no Russian soldiers in Crimea”: See, and that why I don’t believe in what you say. Russian Troops were in Crimea very officially and legally due to the Treaty between Ukraine and Russia. Can you explain why Putin would have denied a fact that was legitimate and legal?

[Sarmatian]

It is Sarmatian all over again. He is sure there are lily-white, fluffy and cute guys in Donetsk region (no Nazis, oh no, my precious). He is sure if I write something unsavoury about them it is because they are pro-Russians, not because they do something unsavoury. He claimed that people in central Ukraine were in two minds how to treat eastern separatists. When I asked for the source he just disregarded the post.
After all, there other people here who may trust more what I write about without links after every second word.

My dear friend, I never referred to eastern protesters as completely innocent. Go back and re-read. I objected to your portrayal of Maidan protesters as freedom fighters who, in the course of fight for freedom, may have made some collateral damage, while protesters in the east were fascists, murderers, anti-Semitic, baby-eating racist bigots who hunt Ukrainian speakers.

Neither side is innocent, both are at least aided by foreign powers, if not outright financed and/or controlled.

You (as in Ukrainians) are screwed either way. You could have tried to minimise the damage when you saw what's happening, you didn't and still don't and the price you're paying is getting higher and will continue to rise. That is also partially western fault, because they directly and indirectly encourage that course of action while doing almost nothing to practically support you and will continue to do nothing, according to their own admission. You're simply pawns in the latest season of "Let's poke the Bear and let someone else deal with teeth and claws while we shout bad Bear from a safe distance for some time, before we go off with the Bear in sunset" hit series.

The fault of Ukraine itself, on the other hand, is not being able to get itself in order for quarter of a century, is on a brink of economic collapse now and its standard of living is worse than in Soviet times.

Also the reason why I didn't respond to your demand for a source is because there isn't one. It was a personal opinion based on multitude of reports and assessments. Obviously there aren't any poll results for a roughly defined geographic term like central Ukraine.

I understand what's Ukraine going through better than most, and as a rule, I try to address the cause and not the symptoms which you may have mistaken for being anti-Ukrainian. But, as I've said, I won't correct your sensationalist statements any more. Knock yourself out.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

That's a load of :daisy: a spy who writes down on a notepad what he is doing.

Also its been denied that a bulgarian was with the team.

I've heard more plausible things from North Korea.

[HoreTore]

“I saw Putin saying that there are no Russian soldiers in Crimea”: See, and that why I don’t believe in what you say. Russian Troops were in Crimea very officially and legally due to the Treaty between Ukraine and Russia. Can you explain why Putin would have denied a fact that was legitimate and legal?

Uhm....

The Russian troops who were in Crimea were to remain within their bases according to the treaty. Putin claimed they did, it's pretty darn obvious they were milling about all over the place.

The Crimean treaty wasn't a blank check for Russians to run wherever they wanted on Crimea, but specified where they should and should not be. It should be obvious that what is being refferred to here is that the Russian troops were outside their bases, not that they weren't present at the bases(which wouldn't make sense).

[Husar]

That's a load of :daisy: a spy who writes down on a notepad what he is doing.

I know, a real spy would use microfilm.


And it's weird because other sources don't mention as Bulgarian member.

Also its been denied that a bulgarian was with the team.

Got me there.

In other news, apparently the Swedish guy who has diabetes has been released while the German ones basically said they're being treated as guests, not as prisoners. Maybe they're used as human shields so the Ukrainian army doesn't come to massacre all Russian-speakers in the city?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Is a benign illegal confinement any less illegal?

America did not seriously maltreat, starve, or torture Americans of Japanese descent who were interned during World War II -- but the act was still wrong and grossly unconstitutional.

[Gilrandir]

“I saw Putin saying that there are no Russian soldiers in Crimea”: See, and that why I don’t believe in what you say. Russian Troops were in Crimea very officially and legally due to the Treaty between Ukraine and Russia. Can you explain why Putin would have denied a fact that was legitimate and legal?
Here is the accurate dialogue:
A journalist: " Are those who stormed the Crimean parliament building and those who besiege Ukrainian military bases Russian troops?"
Putin: "Those are Crimean self-defense forces".
After a month Putin admitted those were Russian soldiers.
Do you honestly think I invent bedtime stories to scare unwary and too trustful Europeans and Americans?

[Gilrandir]

My dear friend, I never referred to eastern protesters as completely innocent. Go back and re-read. I objected to your portrayal of Maidan protesters as freedom fighters who, in the course of fight for freedom, may have made some collateral damage, while protesters in the east were fascists, murderers, anti-Semitic, baby-eating racist bigots who hunt Ukrainian speakers.
You never did, it is true. But it is neither boring nor tiresome for you to remind me about 4 (sometimes they turn into 5) nazis in the government and bullying MPs in Kyiv now and then, while I don't observe suchlike ardor in rubbing in the facts of kidnapping, holding hostage, torturing and murdering local deputies and journalists in Slovyansk. I get it: it is more terrible when a nazi threatens someone than worse crimes committed by (as you believe) non-nazis.


Also the reason why I didn't respond to your demand for a source is because there isn't one. It was a personal opinion based on multitude of reports and assessments.

But, as I've said, I won't correct your sensationalist statements any more.
So yours is a personal opinion which must be trusted because you have analysed and correctly interpreted the multitude of hearsay, mine is sensationalist statements.

[Sarmatian]

You never did, it is true. But it is neither boring nor tiresome for you to remind me about 4 (sometimes they turn into 5) nazis in the government and bullying MPs in Kyiv now and then, while I don't observe suchlike ardor in rubbing in the facts of kidnapping, holding hostage, torturing and murdering local deputies and journalists in Slovyansk. I get it: it is more terrible when a nazi threatens someone than worse crimes committed by (as you believe) non-nazis.

Because there is no need for us to argue about something we agree on. I presume we both agree that what eastern protesters are doing is illegal. On the other hand, I believe what Maidan protesters did was illegal while you don't. It is very simple from my point of view. Either both are legitimate concerns expressed by parts of Ukrainian population and must treated as such or both are illegal and must be treated as such.

From the get go, though, it was about in whose sphere will Ukraine end up, so it has really little to do with legality.


So yours is a personal opinion which must be trusted because you have analysed and correctly interpreted the multitude of hearsay, mine is sensationalist statements.

Feel free to argue I'm wrong, I don't mind. That's what this board is about. It is certainly not about us posting scientifically proven facts with no debate.

BUT, that is very different from you posting that there has been a "general hunt ordered on all who speak Ukrainian" which never happened or that Putin admitted there were Russian soldiers in Ukraine, which he never did. Those are sensationalist statements.

[Brenus]

See, “A journalist: " Are those who stormed the Crimean parliament building and those who besiege Ukrainian military bases Russian troops?"Putin: "Those are Crimean self-defense forces" is different from: “I saw Putin saying that there are no Russian soldiers in Crimea”.

“Do you honestly think I invent bedtime stories to scare unwary and too trustful Europeans and Americans?” I don’t know, and it is not my concern. I do think you believed in these scary stories because you are leaving in a country in a brink of a civil war, or even an international war if things go wrong.

“But it is neither boring nor tiresome for you to remind me about 4 (sometimes they turn into 5) Nazis” Because that is an IMPORTANT political factor. Without them, I will look at the situation differently, and will see the Russian point of view differently. But, for the moment, I will do whatever is in my power to prevent French Soldiers to go or to act to preserve a country willingly and knowingly having Nazi in their executive (this includes the prosecutor in the Maiden killing).

[Husar]

Is a benign illegal confinement any less illegal?

Who said that? Of course it's not, it just makes you feel warmer around the heart and reminds me a little less of murderous fascist nazi thugs than some others here.


America did not seriously maltreat, starve, or torture Americans of Japanese descent who were interned during World War II -- but the act was still wrong and grossly unconstitutional.

Yes, it was. The things people do when they are afraid...

[Gilrandir]

BUT, that is very different from you posting that there has been a "general hunt ordered on all who speak Ukrainian" which never happened or that
Putin admitted there were Russian soldiers in Ukraine, which he never did. Those are sensationalist statements.
I wonder how you would react if you read that some guy from the Right Sector said that he should be notified when someone in Lviv was heard speaking Russian. Would you start lamentation for poor Russain-speakers hunted by the Nazis?
As for Putin, I heard him say it in an interview some days before the medal-giving. He said that behind the backs of Crimean self-defence there of course were Russian soldiers. The journalist asked then if there will be "a shower of awards" (he meant medals, I believe) and Putin replied that people will certainly be awarded, but the names of those will remain secret for a long while. I saw that interview about a week, maybe ten days ago.
Again you may deny it and I have no idea how to prove it, I don't know if all Putin's latest interviews were translated into English (or any other languages) or (if they were) how to search for it. Take it or leave it.

[Gilrandir]

See, “A journalist: " Are those who stormed the Crimean parliament building and those who besiege Ukrainian military bases Russian troops?"Putin: "Those are Crimean self-defense forces" is different from: “I saw Putin saying that there are no Russian soldiers in Crimea”.

Of course there are the soldiers according to the treaty, but I meant the soldiers used in capturing administrative buildings and besieging military bases. Putin denied it. I'm sorry if I didn't make that clear.
But see how curious it is: you don't believe that Putin denied Russian soldiers being instrumental in overrunning Crimea, Sarmatian doesn't believe that Putin later admitted it. Does it mean that you believe the second and he believes the first? Then you can argue on the ones that you don't believe.


“But it is neither boring nor tiresome for you to remind me about 4 (sometimes they turn into 5) Nazis” Because that is an IMPORTANT political factor. Without them, I will look at the situation differently, and will see the Russian point of view differently. But, for the moment, I will do whatever is in my power to prevent French Soldiers to go or to act to preserve a country willingly and knowingly having Nazi in their executive (this includes the prosecutor in the Maiden killing).
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/concerns-as-neonazi-jobbik-party-wins-20-of-hungary-vote-9244541.html
I wonder why no one raised hue and cry about it? Nazis in the civilized Europe's heart.
One more thing: about ten years ago (maybe fifteen) some Nazi (or ultra-nationalist) party succeeded at the elections (I think parliamentary) in Austria. No link again, but I guess it would be easy for you to check it. Has your country stopped any cooperation with Austria or Hungary? Have we noticed any Nazism pouring out of Austria since that time? Will we notice any Nazism flooding Europe from Hungary (see above)? I think you know answer to these questions: fear always exaggerates the anticipated events. I think the same with Ukraine - ten more years (according to Husar) and you will forget your ominous predictions.

[HoreTore]

I wonder why no one raised hue and cry about it?

.....except that they did.

Hungary's government has faced a barrage of condemnation since its inception.

Austria also faced diplomatic consequences.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Who said that? Of course it's not, it just makes you feel warmer around the heart and reminds me a little less of murderous fascist nazi thugs than some others here.



Yes, it was. The things people do when they are afraid...

Anything said by a hostage in captivity is under duress, per definition.

All we know right now is that they aren't being tortured and the supposed reason for their capture is fabricated.

Meanwhile - I don't see this election coming off for May 25th.

[Sarmatian]

I wonder how you would react if you read that some guy from the Right Sector said that he should be notified when someone in Lviv was heard speaking Russian. Would you start lamentation for poor Russain-speakers hunted by the Nazis?

Right Sector is a nazi organisation. The words "we should beware of Jewish spies" have totally different meaning depending if they come from Hitler or Roosevelt.

Since some time has past and a general hunt on Ukrainian speakers didn't happen, I'd say it's safe to assume that wasn't the intention.


As for Putin, I heard him say it in an interview some days before the medal-giving. He said that behind the backs of Crimean self-defence there of course were Russian soldiers. The journalist asked then if there will be "a shower of awards" (he meant medals, I believe) and Putin replied that people will certainly be awarded, but the names of those will remain secret for a long while. I saw that interview about a week, maybe ten days ago.
Again you may deny it and I have no idea how to prove it, I don't know if all Putin's latest interviews were translated into English (or any other languages) or (if they were) how to search for it. Take it or leave it.

I've read the same interview and I'd say that with "we got their back", he meant Russian troops parked on the border. It's quite logical. If those troops weren't there, the situation would be vastly different. It's a figure of speech used liberally in international politics. Backing someone up doesn't mean "we've got troops on the ground."

In other news (http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/04/28/ukraine-mayor-shot/8377419/), mayor of Kharkiv was shot bu unknown assailant(s) and is currently in hospital, fighting for his life.

[Husar]

All we know right now is that they aren't being tortured and the supposed reason for their capture is fabricated.

We don't know that, you assume it.

[Beskar]

I've read the same interview and I'd say that with "we got their back", he meant Russian troops parked on the border. It's quite logical. If those troops weren't there, the situation would be vastly different. It's a figure of speech used liberally in international politics. Backing someone up doesn't mean "we've got troops on the ground."

Sarmatian is correct, think of it in the terms of a boxing ring. You have those involved in the fight in the ring. Putin and the USA have the backs of the different factions but they are not currently involved in the fight. Might say some supportive words and such, but not involved directly.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Once again, to think the USA is anywhere near as involved as Russia is selective thinking at best. We just moved a couple infantry companies into Poland... hardly a great force on the border. We literally just opened up intel sharing with Kiev, while Yanukovich's entire network of jack booted thugs are operating as Russian proxies in the east.

Do they wear jack-boots any more? Really? I mean it is SUCH a cliché.

[Husar]

Yes, until someone leaks about the real amount of involvement or the files are opened after many decades.
But by then we can't blame the US anymore because it's too long gone.

[Kadagar_AV]

Yes, until someone leaks about the real amount of involvement or the files are opened after many decades.
But by then we can't blame the US anymore because it's too long gone.

1. USA have a history of not releasing files, even long after the international interference happened. IE, Vietnam or Iran-revolution.

2. Even if they did, it would be useless accusing USA, as they don't adhere to international laws, as civilized countries do (this of course because they are good guys, and good guys don't need to adhere to, say, the international court in Haag).

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

We don't know that, you assume it.

The reason for their capture was fabricated.

as Gaelic noted, there was no Bulgarian in the group - unless there are actually nine, not eight, men and no spy writes "I am a spy" in a notebook.

And anyway - God Forbid an observer mission observe and take notes - which is, I suspect, the real reason for their capture.

[Kadagar_AV]

The reason for their capture was fabricated.

as Gaelic noted, there was no Bulgarian in the group - unless there are actually nine, not eight, men and no spy writes "I am a spy" in a notebook.

And anyway - God Forbid an observer mission observe and take notes - which is, I suspect, the real reason for their capture.

Would you mind explaining, in words that a simpleton such as I could understand, what the difference between an observer and a spy is?

Is it the tuxedo, gadgets, or way with women?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Would you mind explaining, in words that a simpleton such as I could understand, what the difference between an observer and a spy is?

Is it the tuxedo, gadgets, or way with women?

A spy is pretending to do something else, I suppose.

Even so, it implies the guys in the East have stuff they want to hide - like Spetnatz.

[Gilrandir]

Right Sector is a nazi organisation. The words "we should beware of Jewish spies" have totally different meaning depending if they come from Hitler or Roosevelt.

Since some time has past and a general hunt on Ukrainian speakers didn't happen, I'd say it's safe to assume that wasn't the intention.

Has the hunt for Jewish spies happened? Then it is safe to assume that wasn't the intention. Moreover, the most hated Right Sector didn't go so low as to take hostages among journalists, politicians and international mission members, torture (some of) them and murder (some of) them. I think it is workmanlike PR that determines the attitude to suchlike cases. If those who did it are not branded as Nazis a lot may be condoned, forgiven and even justified to them.
It is sad how you refuse to acknowledge nazi involvement in pro-Russian protests in the East. Here is one more sources saying basically the same of Russian National Unity members acting there that the one I have offered before.
http://www.searchlightmagazine.com/news/featured-news/ukraines-separatists-and-their-dubious-leaders
But again I expect you to deny it and doubt credibility of the source.


I've read the same interview and I'd say that with "we got their back", he meant Russian troops parked on the border. It's quite logical. If those troops weren't there, the situation would be vastly different. It's a figure of speech used liberally in international politics. Backing someone up doesn't mean "we've got troops on the ground."

I read it literally. Anyway, whatever Putin may claim, it is a matter of common knowledge now that the green men were Russian army detachments. So his metaphor (if a metaphor it was) could have a direct meaning.


In other news (http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/04/28/ukraine-mayor-shot/8377419/), mayor of Kharkiv was shot bu unknown assailant(s) and is currently in hospital, fighting for his life.

Of course, those are villains from Right Sector.
One more piece of sensationalist information: A couple of days ago a separatist checkpoint near Slovyansk was attacked by unidentified people. As the separatists claimed, they successfully repelled the attack burning two cars in which assailants had come. Later in one of the cars (burned out completely) a business card of Yarosh (the leader of Right Sector) was found. Evidently it impossible to destroy even by fire. This gave rise to lots of parodies. I thought it might be fun to watch.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYwy3YRFXpM

[Gilrandir]

.....except that they did.

Hungary's government has faced a barrage of condemnation since its inception.

Austria also faced diplomatic consequences.
Source, please. But even if it were so, so what?
How did it change their external and internal policies? Have they become a more dangerous place to live or to come to? Nazis can be present everywhere, but their involvement (as we see with Austria and perhaps will see with Hungary) didn't matter much until their support is much greater. And in the case of Austria and Hungary it is more difficult to explain the rise of their popularity than in modern Ukraine, where winter violence has had an impact on the minds of opponents of Yanukovych regime.
Anyway, according to recent polls, Right Sector's leader as a candidate for presidency is supported by barely 1% of voters, Tyagnybok - by 3-4%. As you see, there are more reasons to fear Austrian and Hungarian than Ukrainian nazis.

[HoreTore]

Source, please. But even if it were so, so what?
How did it change their external and internal policies? Have they become a more dangerous place to live or to come to? Nazis can be present everywhere, but their involvement (as we see with Austria and perhaps will see with Hungary) didn't matter much until their support is much greater. And in the case of Austria and Hungary it is more difficult to explain the rise of their popularity than in modern Ukraine, where winter violence has had an impact on the minds of opponents of Yanukovych regime.
Anyway, according to recent polls, Right Sector's leader as a candidate for presidency is supported by barely 1% of voters, Tyagnybok - by 3-4%. As you see, there are more reasons to fear Austrian and Hungarian than Ukrainian nazis.

Source? My source is my memory of what happened a decade ago. If you want to read more, I suggest you look for it yourself. Anyway, European diplomacy went into crisis mode in 2000 following the Freedom Party inclusion in a coalition government; there were talks of just about every form of punishment imagineable. While most of those punishments naturally didn't materialize, diplomatic relations with Austria was reduced to a bare minimum, ie. only the formal meetings required because of the EU.

Hungary, on the other hand, is lead by the far saner Fidesz party, which is a pretty standard conservative party. The loonie-toones in Jobbik are not a part of the government, although they do form part of the parliamentary support for Fidesz. The reactions have therefore not been at a state level like in Austria, but rather the general kind of condemnation we have also seen against the Golden Dawn in Greece. Hungary's new media law was met with tons of criticism and threats, however.

If you want to highlight western hypocrisy on this matter, I suggest you look into Italy in the mid-90's rather than Austria and Hungary.

Anyway, it seems that Sarmatian and Brenus has some difficulty understanding what a transitional government is. They're a haphazard collection of whoever was present at the time, with few pretentions of electoral support. They always contain loonies. Ukraine is no exception. It's job is simple; implement the most important issues of the revolution and make preparations for an election. The Ukrainian government has done both, and little else. It has been reactive in both Crimea and eastern Ukraine, which means they understand what their mandate is. The eastern Ukrainians and Russia do not seem to get what it's about however, as they treat the government as a legitimate government who will stay in power. Still, that's probably just opportunism and trying to get as much out of the situation as possible before it stabilizes.

As for the whole "you're the nazi, no you are!"-charade, it's interesting to see what the proper nazi's make of the situation. The BNP, Front National, Golden Dawn, Jobbik and Attack have all issued statements against the Ukraine government and support Russia. The Swedish Democrats and some minor balts are quite alone in their support of the Ukrainian government. Further, the pleasant fellows over at Stormfront are strongly in favour of Russia. There are a few threads against Russia, but the majority clearly support Putin. As they have for a long time now, I might add.

In other words, Sarmatian and Brenus have wonderful allies.

[Pannonian]

In other words, Sarmatian and Brenus have wonderful allies.

The question I'd ask is, why have allies there at all? I was happier when Ukraine was beyond the edge of my consciousness, and I'll be happy again when it's once more beyond the edge of my consciousness. I don't want my government to do anything more than token stuff, and I'll resent it if we have to commit long term. Just like Iraq and all the other stupid extra-European adventures.

[Husar]

The reason for their capture was fabricated.

as Gaelic noted, there was no Bulgarian in the group - unless there are actually nine, not eight, men and no spy writes "I am a spy" in a notebook.

And anyway - God Forbid an observer mission observe and take notes - which is, I suspect, the real reason for their capture.

Officially there was no Bulgarian, but since we are the good guys, we would never lie about such things.
It's also unthinkable that the spy, not being Bulgarian, would take notes in Bulgarian hoping they'd be harder to decipher for Russian-speakers, since Bulgarian and Russian only use the same alphabet but are separate languages.


A spy is pretending to do something else, I suppose.

Even so, it implies the guys in the East have stuff they want to hide - like Spetnatz.

Or maybe it just implies that they can't tell the difference between a spy and an observer but since they're demonspawn from Russia, we know that you would never give them the benefit of the doubt. You just filter all the information you get through your prejudices against the separatists and Putin and then draw your conclusions accordingly. The same is ofcourse true for a lot of the press and others, unbiased reporting or anything even close to that is hard to find on both sides.

Also, as a bonus, from Monday: http://www.zeit.de/politik/deutschland/2014-04/fs-putin-schroeder/seite-15

[Sarmatian]

Has the hunt for Jewish spies happened? Then it is safe to assume that wasn't the intention. Moreover, the most hated Right Sector didn't go so low as to take hostages among journalists, politicians and international mission members, torture (some of) them and murder (some of) them. I think it is workmanlike PR that determines the attitude to suchlike cases. If those who did it are not branded as Nazis a lot may be condoned, forgiven and even justified to them.
It is sad how you refuse to acknowledge nazi involvement in pro-Russian protests in the East. Here is one more sources saying basically the same of Russian National Unity members acting there that the one I have offered before.
http://www.searchlightmagazine.com/news/featured-news/ukraines-separatists-and-their-dubious-leaders
But again I expect you to deny it and doubt credibility of the source.

No, of course not. Searchlighmagazine is a famous news agency with a lot of credibility and stuff.

In the first sentence it established that on one side are a vast coalition of freedom fighters and democrats while on the other pro-Russian criminals and thugs. I didn't bother reading further.


I read it literally. Anyway, whatever Putin may claim, it is a matter of common knowledge now that the green men were Russian army detachments. So his metaphor (if a metaphor it was) could have a direct meaning.

The complete absence of evidence would lead to a conclusion that direct involvement of Russian army was vastly overstated. I'd assume there is some, but even less than I originally thought.


Of course, those are villains from Right Sector.
One more piece of sensationalist information: A couple of days ago a separatist checkpoint near Slovyansk was attacked by unidentified people. As the separatists claimed, they successfully repelled the attack burning two cars in which assailants had come. Later in one of the cars (burned out completely) a business card of Yarosh (the leader of Right Sector) was found. Evidently it impossible to destroy even by fire. This gave rise to lots of parodies. I thought it might be fun to watch.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYwy3YRFXpM

And what is your point? That both sides are involved in *gasp* propaganda?

Congratulations, Columbus, you've just discovered Americas.



If you want to highlight western hypocrisy on this matter, I suggest you look into Italy in the mid-90's rather than Austria and Hungary.

Anyway, it seems that Sarmatian and Brenus has some difficulty understanding what a transitional government is. They're a haphazard collection of whoever was present at the time, with few pretentions of electoral support. They always contain loonies. Ukraine is no exception. It's job is simple; implement the most important issues of the revolution and make preparations for an election. The Ukrainian government has done both, and little else. It has been reactive in both Crimea and eastern Ukraine, which means they understand what their mandate is. The eastern Ukrainians and Russia do not seem to get what it's about however, as they treat the government as a legitimate government who will stay in power. Still, that's probably just opportunism and trying to get as much out of the situation as possible before it stabilizes.

A transitional government would have been a government of national unity, that would guide the country until the elections. A government consisting of Maidan revolutionaries didn't act at all as a transitional government. Pledging country to EU and NATO, violently deposing local governors, threating MP's, trying to ban opposition parties. How biased you need to be to consider that normal.

It's a revolutionary government, pure and simple. Revolutionary governments have no right to cry foul when someone else pulls the same trick.


As for the whole "you're the nazi, no you are!"-charade, it's interesting to see what the proper nazi's make of the situation. The BNP, Front National, Golden Dawn, Jobbik and Attack have all issued statements against the Ukraine government and support Russia. The Swedish Democrats and some minor balts are quite alone in their support of the Ukrainian government. Further, the pleasant fellows over at Stormfront are strongly in favour of Russia. There are a few threads against Russia, but the majority clearly support Putin. As they have for a long time now, I might add.

In other words, Sarmatian and Brenus have wonderful allies.

So? Stormfront also recommends exercising daily and speaking at least two foreign languages. Am I a nazi, because I'm guilty on both accounts? Ok, I don't exercise every day, every other day.

I'm pretty sure various Christian supremacist groups and far right organization were peeing their pants from pure joy when USA invaded Iraq and Afghanistan, welcoming a crusade against the wicked. What's that got to do with anything?

[HoreTore]

Daily excercise is a fundamental requirement for being a nazi, and so you are not a nazi. Sorry.

The point of it all, was an attempt to judge "who the nazi is". We have conflicting views of who are the naziest nazi. You point to Kiev, Gilrandir points west. A method to sort that out could be to look at what the people we are absolutely sure are nazis think, and see who they support. They are overwhelmingly in favour of Putin, who have long been seen as White Europes last chance of survival in the coming race war against the stinky darkies. And yes, I am making an argument from association here.

As for the revolutionary government: closer ties to the EU and NATO was a strong demand from the revolution. It's obvious that this had to be implemented. Kicking out uncooperative governors is also unproblematic. A new regime will always boot out the remnants of the old regime.


By the way, it was slightly hilarious when you, as proof of Svoboda involvement, offered up "closer ties to the EU". Yeah, that's definitely a reflection of Svoboda involvement, the party who even wants to ban the Bologna agreement... I'm sure EU membership is their top priority.

[Sarmatian]

Daily excercise is a fundamental requirement for being a nazi, and so you are not a nazi. Sorry.

I am so. You're being mean. At least 3/4 of one, according to the requirements. I just need to find a Jewish store and throw a rock at the front window.



The point of it all, was an attempt to judge "who the nazi is". We have conflicting views of who are the naziest nazi. You point to Kiev, Gilrandir points west. A method to sort that out could be to look at what the people we are absolutely sure are nazis think, and see who they support. They are overwhelmingly in favour of Putin, who have long been seen as White Europes last chance of survival in the coming race war against the stinky darkies. And yes, I am making an argument from association here.

If you already know you're making a logical fallacy, why bother?


As for the revolutionary government: closer ties to the EU and NATO was a strong demand from the revolution. It's obvious that this had to be implemented. Kicking out uncooperative governors is also unproblematic. A new regime will always boot out the remnants of the old regime.

I know and I agree, but then they can't claim they represent the entire population and can't cry foul if the other part of the country refuse to accept it.

Ukraine is a deeply divided country. Just because central government is in a part of the country favouring one course doesn't give them the right to overthrow democratically elected officials when they're displeased with them, without regards to the other part. Either make sure you have the support of the entire country or wait for the elections. The elections were supposed to be held next year. That wasn't good enough. Then it was agreed that election be held in a few months and a government of national unity be formed in the meantime, representing all political factors. That wasn't good enough, either, and a putsch was performed.

And when eastern regions said WTF did you just do, we don't accept that, they're suddenly the bad guys. Come on, really.


By the way, it was slightly hilarious when you, as proof of Svoboda involvement, offered up "closer ties to the EU". Yeah, that's definitely a reflection of Svoboda involvement, the party who even wants to ban the Bologna agreement... I'm sure EU membership is their top priority.

No, EU and NATO membership was mentioned as a proof (one of) that the "interim" government didn't act as interim government, but as a revolutionary government and in the process lost all rights to invoke legality and legitimacy.

[Gilrandir]

The BNP, Front National, Golden Dawn, Jobbik and Attack have all issued statements against the Ukraine government and support Russia.
I know that Jobbik wants to include Ukrainian Transcarpathia into Hungary.

[Gilrandir]

No, of course not. Searchlighmagazine is a famous news agency with a lot of credibility and stuff.

In the first sentence it established that on one side are a vast coalition of freedom fighters and democrats while on the other pro-Russian criminals and thugs. I didn't bother reading further.

I see. Nothing can persuade you in the fact that there are Nazis on both sides of the Ukrainian conflict. If I don't like it, it is not true. Rigid point of view, like I said.



And what is your point? That both sides are involved in *gasp* propaganda?

Congratulations, Columbus, you've just discovered Americas.

You wouldn't believe me, but the only point is for you and other people to have fun, as I have explicitly mentioned. To my mind it's amusing. And you have my pity - you see a deep-hidden point under every post and word.



A transitional government would have been a government of national unity, that would guide the country until the elections. A government consisting of Maidan revolutionaries didn't act at all as a transitional government.

National unity means inclusion of Yanukovych's party into it?
It made mistakes, I agree, but most of what you think improper for a transitional government to do (radical changes in internal and extenal policies) was done under war conditions in fact. According to you, the government shouldn't have done anything to react to Crimea annexation, threat of a new invasion from the east and looming economic crisis - only reiterate: "All we need is elections. Other problems are beyond us to address". It seems that these very problems now are in the way of holding the elections.

[Gilrandir]

The point of it all, was an attempt to judge "who the nazi is". We have conflicting views of who are the naziest nazi. You point to Kiev, Gilrandir points west.
Objection, your honor. I point everywhere. There are nazis in all, even most democratic, countries, and they are aplenty in others, not so democratic, in Russia for example. The latter is the fact that Sarmatian refuses to admit.

[Gilrandir]

I know and I agree, but then they can't claim they represent the entire population and can't cry foul if the other part of the country refuse to accept it.


There are no governments that represent the entire population. Some part of voters voted for those who lost. In Ukraine, the legal and legitimate government represented only the Eastern part of the counrty (and some officials, like defense minister or the head of SBU were not so long ago Russian citizens), as I have repeatedly shown. But it didn't really cause overt aggression (only covert exasperation) until it pushed the game too far.

[Sarmatian]

I see. Nothing can persuade you in the fact that there are Nazis on both sides of the Ukrainian conflict. If I don't like it, it is not true. Rigid point of view, like I said.

Possibly, yes. I don't hold that high of an opinion about eastern protesters. I just hate the hypocrisy - they're being demonised for doing the exact same thing Maidan protesters were applauded for.

But, that is not the main point. The main point is this, from my reply to HT:



Ukraine is a deeply divided country. Just because central government is in a part of the country favouring one course doesn't give them the right to overthrow democratically elected officials when they're displeased with them, without regards to the other part. Either make sure you have the support of the entire country or wait for the elections. The elections were supposed to be held next year. That wasn't good enough. Then it was agreed that election be held in a few months and a government of national unity be formed in the meantime, representing all political factors. That wasn't good enough, either, and a putsch was performed.

And when eastern regions said WTF did you just do, we don't accept that, they're suddenly the bad guys. Come on, really.


The fact that Nazis were involved as the shock troops at Maidan and that they hold several important state positions just makes me that much less sympathetic to Maidan's government plight.


You wouldn't believe me, but the only point is for you and other people to have fun, as I have explicitly mentioned. To my mind it's amusing. And you have my pity - you see a deep-hidden point under every post and word.


I didn't see any point, that's why I asked and tried to guess.



National unity means inclusion of Yanukovych's party into it?

Jawohl.


It made mistakes, I agree, but most of what you think improper for a transitional government to do (radical changes in internal and extenal policies) was done under war conditions in fact. According to you, the government shouldn't have done anything to react to Crimea annexation, threat of a new invasion from the east and looming economic crisis - only reiterate: "All we need is elections. Other problems are beyond us to address". It seems that these very problems now are in the way of holding the elections.

If they didn't break the deal they had made with Yanukovich, they would have had elections (even earlier) and no loss of territory. They've lost Crimea in the meantime. If they don't get their act together they may lose more. This is the point when someone says OK, we miscalculated and we screwed up big time. Let's save what we can save now, but no one in Kiev has the cojones to do that, so you're stuck in limbo and with each passing day you get closer to a civil war.

[Gilrandir]

Jawohl.

Including people who openly claimed that shooting at Maidan protesters was too mild a measure? People on Maidan would cheer that decision for sure.


If they didn't break the deal they had made with Yanukovich, they would have had elections (even earlier) and no loss of territory.

They wouldn't. According to the argeement, the elections were to happen not later than December 2014. Knowing Yanukovych, he was playing for time. He would do anything to upset the elections (as I beleive he is doing now) or postpone them indefinitely. The latter he did and not once - municipal and mayoral in Kyiv and other cities. When he saw that his candidates were not likely to win (or the fraud wouldn't be possible) he just didn't hold any elections. As a result, 5 or 6 regional centers (including the one I live in) don't have mayors.
As for Crimea, the medals make it clear that Putin started his operation the day before the agreement was signed.

[Gilrandir]

Possibly, yes. I don't hold that high of an opinion about eastern protesters. I just hate the hypocrisy - they're being demonised for doing the exact same thing Maidan protesters were applauded for.

Hostage-taking? Observer-kidnapping? Deputy-murdering? Surely these are just reasons for kindly remonstrance. Maidan monsters were much more terrible.

[Sarmatian]

Including people who openly claimed that shooting at Maidan protesters was too mild a measure? People on Maidan would cheer that decision for sure.

Well, tough cookies.

It was high time they understood that there are 50 million people beside them living in Ukraine.

Anyway, since now you got people who shoot on eastern protesters in the government, you haven't made much of an improvement, vis-a-vis shooting Ukrainian citizens, have you?


They wouldn't. According to the argeement, the elections were to happen not later than December 2014. Knowing Yanukovych, he was playing for time. He would do anything to upset the elections (as I beleive he is doing now) or postpone them indefinitely. The latter he did and not once - municipal and mayoral in Kyiv and other cities. When he saw that his candidates were not likely to win (or the fraud wouldn't be possible) he just didn't hold any elections. As a result, 5 or 6 regional centers (including the one I live in) don't have mayors.
As for Crimea, the medals make it clear that Putin started his operation the day before the agreement was signed.

And now we'll never know. What we do know, is that with every new stupid move Maidan government makes, Ukraine's sinking deeper into the hole, and that is sad.

Right or wrong, Ukraine has no other option but to negotiate with the protesters in Donetsk region.

[Brenus]

“Anyway, it seems that Sarmatian and Brenus has some difficulty understanding what a transitional government is” Err, not at all.
A transitional government is in charge of common affairs, as security, police, paying civil servants and making sure that buses arrived more or less on time. It might considered a Constituante Assembly if there is a need of constitution change, or organise a ballot to do so.
It certainly not signs International Treaty biding the country, and certainly not legislates.
It conducts the common affairs until elections come and constitute a new Parliament, democratically elected, will produce a government in charge.

“The point of it all, was an attempt to judge "who the nazi is". We have conflicting views of who are the naziest nazi.” Err, when somebody says he is a Nazi, I think he is. The Nazis in the actually executive power in Ukraine never denied being Nazi, they are proud to be. Until now, I didn’t see any images or declaration from the Pro-Russian side proclaiming that they are Nazi.
I am quite sure there are Russians who are Nazi. Actual Nazis are so stupid that they forget their families were killed by Nazi. They forget as well that Nazis lost the war. Always upset them when someone reminds it to them.

[Husar]

I really like this artcle from Focus Online: http://www.focus.de/politik/ausland/politik-der-krieg-der-luegen_id_3784253.html

It's about how both sides are lying, deceiving, overestimating and so on.
It starts with an example where the Ukrainian government claimed to have gloriously reconquered an airfield, Russia claimed that they killed many people but the truth is the government troops hardly did anything, a few people died and the locals came to protest against the government...

Furthermore Putin lied to Merkel about where his troops are and where he would send them and he is probably controlling eastern Ukraine a lot in order to let the Maidan government look stupid.

It continues with a bit about how NATO has an interest in inflating numbers and overplaying events because this conflict made NATO seem relevant again.

CIA Boss John Brennan also travelled to Ukraine, but the US-government just claims it's a routine visit and released a paper about "ten lies from Moscow" instead. :rolleyes:
Putin is also getting PR help from the New Yorker PR-agency Ketchum since 2006, they run one of his websites, which to this day just shows nice stories about Sotchi, nothing about the Ukraine crisis, allegedly they also helped him become the Time person of the year.
A Ukraine Crisis Media Center keeps mailing the newest news about Russian aggression from Kiev every day but if one traces it back a bit, it is owned by US billionaire Goerge Soros and a PR-Agency (RPR) that is a subsidiary of Weber-Shandwick (never heard of them before, it says it's a huge US company). That crisis center also spread good news about anti-terror activities of the Ukrainian army, which turned out to be mostly untrue.

At the same time several Ukrainian soldiers in BMPs surrendered to the separatists in Eastern Ukraine, one of them shouting "We are one people, I won't shoot my brothers!". Generally army commanders are very afraid that their soldiers may join the separatists if they send them to eastern Ukraine, so they officially send them there on maneuvers instead.

A video that allegedly showed a russian officer commanding ukrainian policemen around who had allegedly switched sides turned out to be fake, the "officer" was a member of the mafia in eastern Ukraine.

In the end it cites a woman who is blocking the aformentioned airport/base and she basically says the government in Kiev is not listening to the eastern Ukrainians, they do not want to become part of Russia but they also do not want to cut ties with Russia because that would mean a lot of companies in their area would close etc. A member of the new peoples' republic of Donezk says they want a referendum and are ready to fight for more independence.


So basically it's all about lies from all sides and there are certainly US interests involved as well, in whatever capacity.

[HoreTore]

“Anyway, it seems that Sarmatian and Brenus has some difficulty understanding what a transitional government is” Err, not at all.
A transitional government is in charge of common affairs, as security, police, paying civil servants and making sure that buses arrived more or less on time. It might considered a Constituante Assembly if there is a need of constitution change, or organise a ballot to do so.
It certainly not signs International Treaty biding the country, and certainly not legislates.
It conducts the common affairs until elections come and constitute a new Parliament, democratically elected, will produce a government in charge.

No transitional government in history has ever done that.

Heck, even the various 'governments of national unity' that sprung up all over Europe after the Germans fled didn't keep to just that. A healthy percentage of them have even declared war on another country.

[Brenus]

No transitional government in history has ever done that.” No? Spain after Franco, Portugal after the Revolution in 1974, South Africa didn’t do badly, France in 1944-45, in term of new constitution after the fall of Pétain's Etat Français... No civil war...
The Ukrainians had the opportunity to do so, but in the haste of the Extremists to impose their political views, joined by the haste of Europe and USA to detach this country from Moscow, they blow -it.
They could have go for first go the peripheral populations and listened. Because these populations didn’t move during the movement (because they agreed with the social demands of the initial movement, the 3rd of this kind, I think), they thought they could do what they want and transform a social conflict in an ethnic confrontation. If they would have chosen (and they could have) the more democratic path, there is a good chance that they would still have Crimea and the Russian Gaz.
Their haste to humiliate the Russian minorities made the bed for Putin.

[Gilrandir]

Their haste to humiliate the Russian minorities made the bed for Putin.
The mission of UNO (or was it some other international organization?) visited Ukraine in April and concluded that Russian-speakers (if it is what you mean by "Russian minorities") suffer no oppression in Ukraine.

[Gilrandir]

“ The Nazis in the actually executive power in Ukraine never denied being Nazi, they are proud to be. Until now, I didn’t see any images or declaration from the Pro-Russian side proclaiming that they are Nazi.

Svoboda claims that they are nationalists and deny being Nazis.

[Sarmatian]

Svoboda claims that they are nationalists and deny being Nazis.

Of course they would. It's like how racists deny being racist - "I'm not a racist, I just think that black people have smaller brains, are dirty and full of bacterias. They should stick to picking cotton, and if they absolutely must be free, they shouldn't have a vote or the same salary for the same job as white people."

Svoboda denies being nazi, but they're openly promoting nazi principle. As a general rule, when someone thinks his country is being oppressed by an international Jewish conspiracy, it's a safe bet to call them nazis.

[Gilrandir]

Svoboda denies being nazi, but they're openly promoting nazi principle. As a general rule, when someone thinks his country is being oppressed by an international Jewish conspiracy, it's a safe bet to call them nazis.
But Brenus claims they openly proclaim themselves Nazi and are proud of it.

[HoreTore]

No transitional government in history has ever done that.” No? Spain after Franco, Portugal after the Revolution in 1974, South Africa didn’t do badly, France in 1944-45, in term of new constitution after the fall of Pétain's Etat Français... No civil war...

You kidding me?

Juan Carlos was given the reigns to continue Franco's regime. Instead he toppled the existing regime and ordered a completely new one to be made. His actions did not sit well with a large section of the Spanish, proved by the later attempted coup.
Portugal attempted to implement a weird form of anarcho-communism, which would have transformed nearly the entire society. They also made drastic foreign policy changes before elections were held 6-ish months later. It was also an example of a classic coup, the kind where a small section of the armed forces roll into the capital with tanks, with no prior public support, to arrest their leaders.
South Africa is an exception, as the old regime gave up power willingly. Still, they did a lot more than just continue the existing policies and prepare for elections.
The French made a complete turnaround foreing policy-wise, as they switched sides and declared war on Germany.

[Sarmatian]

But Brenus claims they openly proclaim themselves Nazi and are proud of it.

Not the nazi name, nazi principles.

[Sarmatian]

Let's try Gilrandir's approach - Turchinov wants to form terrorist units (http://rt.com/news/155856-ukraine-alert-president-army/) to kill unarmed Ukrainians!

Nah, it feels stupid.

On a serious, less sensationalistic, note (link in the first paragraph is legit), Ukrainian acting president admitted Kiev has completely lost control of the east. He also promised to sack many officers because they demonstrated "inaction, helplessness and sometimes treason” (genius move, where does he think they'll go after the sack? Hawaii?) and stressed the importance of a speedy creation of local militias loyal to Kiev, a move which will probably create new tensions.

On a more positive note, he said that “as we know from the experience of Maidan, the use of force is inefficient. That’s the situation we faced in the eastern regions.” That might mean that Maidan government isn't planning new military actions, but until Kiev abandons the policy of no negotiation, there's a good chance most of the east and southeast say bye-bye to Kiev very soon.

[Brenus]

"Svoboda claims that they are nationalists and deny being Nazis." Do they?
http://youtu.be/jNH_uXXr0gk

Sorry for the text in French, but the images behind are good enough near the 1 mn 20 I think.

“You kidding me?” Err, and your points are?

[gaelic cowboy]

You kidding me?

Juan Carlos was given the reigns to continue Franco's regime. Instead he toppled the existing regime and ordered a completely new one to be made. His actions did not sit well with a large section of the Spanish, proved by the later attempted coup.
Portugal attempted to implement a weird form of anarcho-communism, which would have transformed nearly the entire society. They also made drastic foreign policy changes before elections were held 6-ish months later. It was also an example of a classic coup, the kind where a small section of the armed forces roll into the capital with tanks, with no prior public support, to arrest their leaders.
South Africa is an exception, as the old regime gave up power willingly. Still, they did a lot more than just continue the existing policies and prepare for elections.
The French made a complete turnaround foreing policy-wise, as they switched sides and declared war on Germany.


We had a transitional government promised to form a coalition after an election with its opponent in the civil war.

(it didnt happen though as the opponent never took there seats)

[Viking]

"Svoboda claims that they are nationalists and deny being Nazis." Do they?
http://youtu.be/jNH_uXXr0gk

Sorry for the text in French, but the images behind are good enough near the 1 mn 20 I think.

Nazi salute with the left arm? How heretical. This Donetsk separatist guy (http://youtu.be/yD8goJMLUhs?t=22s) shows you how it is done.

[Gilrandir]

"Svoboda claims that they are nationalists and deny being Nazis." Do they?
http://youtu.be/jNH_uXXr0gk

Sorry for the text in French, but the images behind are good enough near the 1 mn 20 I think.


So, anyone who is spotted with his arm upwards at a ceratin anlge is a nazi? I use that gesture to stop a taxi from time to time. Well, it is either I am a nazi or it is a taxi for nazis (probably called "the takSSi").

[Gilrandir]

Let's try Gilrandir's approach - Turchinov wants to form terrorist units (http://rt.com/news/155856-ukraine-alert-president-army/) to kill unarmed Ukrainians!

Nah, it feels stupid.


Touche!!! You have practically skewered me. But on my feet on or on my knees I still have some strength left for the final lunge before my intimely demise.
Now let's try Sarmatian's approach:

Nazi salute with the left arm? How heretical. This Donetsk separatist guy (http://youtu.be/yD8goJMLUhs?t=22s) shows you how it is done.
1) so, what's the point?
2) this is all a load of bollocks;
3) the source is unreliable - youtube administration should include some representatives of Ukraine's south-east (preferably from the Party of Regions) to create the sense of inclusion;
4) too many videos linked lately - it is getting boring, childish and sensationalist;
5) you forget that while you dawdle away posting dubious videos there are real nazis (who should be hanged by their private pa... Wait! suppose there are women there? Well, we'll find something to hang them by - they got thumbs anyway) in the interrim government (the members of which are guilty of hobnobbing with nazis);
6) whatever you post you will not make me change my personal opinion based on multitude of reports and assessments.
:bow:

[Brenus]

"So, anyone who is spotted with his arm upwards at a ceratin anlge is a nazi? I use that gesture to stop a taxi from time to time. Well, it is either I am a nazi or it is a taxi for nazis (probably called "the takSSi")." So, according to you, in a political meeting, this guy was calling for a taxi? Well try for the diversion.

"Nazi salute with the left arm?" Yeah. No rule for Nazi salute. as shown in many Hitler picture (arm straight or "broken"). As right or left, it is academic. This is a Nazi salute, in a political meeting by a actual member of the Ukrainian Executive. Now, you see a better resolution of this picture. Google Nazi Salute Ukraine. Then you come back and tell me that this guy was stopping a taxi and it was not a Nazi Salute.
I was near to forget: The separatist is not in a government that issued laws against a linguistic minority...

[Gilrandir]

So, according to you, in a political meeting, this guy was calling for a taxi?
People can be caught in similar posture on various occasions.

12843
12844
12845
12846
12847
12848
And if you are a politician and you speak in public you tend to wave your hands a lot. One of these moments was captured by the photographer, I believe.

[Gilrandir]

This is a Nazi salute, in a political meeting by a actual member of the Ukrainian Executive. Now, you see a better resolution of this picture. Google Nazi Salute Ukraine. Then you come back and tell me that this guy was stopping a taxi and it was not a Nazi Salute.
I was near to forget: The separatist is not in a government that issued laws against a linguistic minority...
Neither is Tyagnybok. He is the leader of the party and a candidate for presidency, but he holds no office in the government.

[Sarmatian]

1) so, what's the point?
2) this is all a load of bollocks;
3) the source is unreliable - youtube administration should include some representatives of Ukraine's south-east (preferably from the Party of Regions) to create the sense of inclusion;
4) too many videos linked lately - it is getting boring, childish and sensationalist;
5) you forget that while you dawdle away posting dubious videos there are real nazis (who should be hanged by their private pa... Wait! suppose there are women there? Well, we'll find something to hang them by - they got thumbs anyway) in the interrim government (the members of which are guilty of hobnobbing with nazis);
6) whatever you post you will not make me change my personal opinion based on multitude of reports and assessments.
:bow:

I love you :laugh4:

[Viking]

"Nazi salute with the left arm?" Yeah. No rule for Nazi salute. as shown in many Hitler picture (arm straight or "broken"). As right or left, it is academic. This is a Nazi salute, in a political meeting by a actual member of the Ukrainian Executive. Now, you see a better resolution of this picture. Google Nazi Salute Ukraine. Then you come back and tell me that this guy was stopping a taxi and it was not a Nazi Salute.
I was near to forget: The separatist is not in a government that issued laws against a linguistic minority...

Nazi salutes are normally done with the right arm, as far as I can see. A still frame with the left arm is hardly conclusive; he could have been gesturing to someone. You can see that he is looking in the same direction (http://gwplondon.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/oleg-tyanhybok.jpg)that his arm is pointing.


I was near to forget: The separatist is not in a government that issued laws against a linguistic minority...

I don't see what that has to do with anything. There's a fair chance he would if he could, hah.


As far as I understand, it was about cancelling a law that allowed Russian to be an official language. Yanukovych wasn't always any better, apparently (http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/yanukovych-ukraine-will-not-have-second-state-lang-61283.html):


The Ukrainian language will be the only state language in Ukraine, President Victor Yanukovych said. "Ukraine will continue to promote the Ukrainian language as its only state language," Yanukovych said at a meeting with Taras Shevchenko National Prize winners in Kyiv on Mar. 9 [2010].

If the fact that a language is not official means it is oppressed, then allow me to suggest that my dialect is oppressed since it is not officially recognised.

[Brenus]

“Nazi salutes are normally done with the right arm, as far as I can see.” Yes they are. So? He mixed up. Good. He is still a Nazi who mixed –up. A dyslexic Nazi.

“I don't see what that has to do with anything.” I don’t held lunatic fringe responsible for the actions of a party. Fair enough no?

“Neither is Tyagnybok.” Member of his Nazi Party are. His party, Nazi, has 1/3 of the seat in the Ukrainian Parliament. He is in the top 10 list of the anti-Semitic of Simon Wiesenthal Centre (he just said it was a need to purge 400 000 Jews in Ukraine , etc). “After the 2010 conviction of the Nazi death camp guard John Demjanjuk for his supporting role in the death of nearly 30,000 people at the Sobibor camp, Tyahnybok rushed to Germany to declare him a hero who was “fighting for truth.” In the Ukrainian parliament, where Svoboda holds an unprecedented 37 seats, Tyahnybok’s deputy Yuriy Mykhalchyshyn is fond of quoting Joseph Goebbels – he has even founded a think tank originally called “the Joseph Goebbels Political Research Centre.”: Surely not Nazi, no…

“You can see that he is looking in the same direction that his arm is pointing.” I am convinced… All Nazi when saluting look another way, probably due to shame…

“As far as I understand, it was about cancelling a law that allowed Russian to be an official language. Yanukovych wasn't always any better” And? Yanukovych didn’t boast about killing Russian, did he?

“A still frame with the left arm is hardly conclusive; he could have been gesturing to someone.” Yeah, but no. He is saluting his crowd with a gesture they know and love, a Nazi Salute

[Greyblades]

A dyslexic Nazi.
Ein Vault, ein Riker, ein Farter!

...I'll see myself out.

[Viking]

Yes they are. So? He mixed up. Good. He is still a Nazi who mixed –up. A dyslexic Nazi.

I have little interest in arguing whether that guy is Nazi or not, but that picture is not conclusive evidence of a Nazi salute. That is my argument.


“I don't see what that has to do with anything.” I don’t held lunatic fringe responsible for the actions of a party. Fair enough no?

Probably, but I would not want to overestimate the niceness of the separatist movement. It has been argued that most people in the easternmost regions are rather indifferent (http://time.com/69083/ukraine-donetsk-separatists-russia-kiev/) to what is currently going on there; which could make one wonder who it is that grab guns and claim to speak on behalf of the people.


“As far as I understand, it was about cancelling a law that allowed Russian to be an official language. Yanukovych wasn't always any better” And? Yanukovych didn’t boast about killing Russian, did he?

The argument I addressed was about the language law. Think I'll pass on the great Yanukovych vs. Tyahnybok character comparison game.

[Brenus]

“That is my argument.”: Fair enough. We agree to disagree.

“Probably, but I would not want to overestimate the niceness of the separatist movement.” I do not. I am just fed-up by the hypocrisy of the ones blindly supporting the actual Ukrainian men in power, as it was incorruptible vs corruption, democracy vs autocracy, and good vs evil, when, actually, Putin is using the tools we used in the past.

“Think I'll pass on the great Yanukovych vs. Tyahnybok character comparison game” I could emphasise on the fact you started it. I won’t.

[Fragony]

Oh van Rompuy http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-London/2014/05/01/van-rompuy-says-europe-will-expand-without-public-backing

'In a crass and ill-timed intervention, the unelected president of the European Council Herman Van Rompuy has warned Vladimir Putin that the EU intends ultimately to control every country on the western flank of Russia'

stupid or psychotic? both?

[InsaneApache]

They truly are loonies aren't they?

Talk about putting out fire with gasoline.

[Fragony]

Why do you hate peace and stability?

[InsaneApache]

Why do you hate peace and stability?

hehe......

At least we have an antidote to this madness.

http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-London/2014/05/01/European-Elections-UKIP-Ahead-in-Most-English-Regions

Barroso said that the EU is an Empire, well we've had one of those and dismantled it. I, for one, dont want another.

[Fragony]

Fascist

[InsaneApache]

Me or Barroso? :creep:

[Viking]

Some of the language in that article is certainly a bit fascist:


Van Rompuy’s comments, released in the midst of the tensions which have followed moves by Brussels to put Ukraine on the path to EU membership, give credence to Putin’s fears that ultimately the EU intends to put its tanks on Russia’s lawn.

Fragony, you're living on Germany's lawn, apparently. Don't do anything that might upset the Germans, or they'll cut you (the grass) down. As they are entitled to, of course - it's their lawn, after all.

[InsaneApache]

Some of the language in that article is certainly a bit fascist:


Van Rompuy speaks about his “dreams” that all the Balkan states will join the EU. He calls it an “inspiring thought” that in the long term “the whole of European territory outside Russia” will be tied in some way to the EU.

He admits he does not know if there is public support for such a move, “But we do it anyway.”

Yup that's a fair example of fascism.

NB: What is it with the Nobel Peace Prize? The ones that win it seem to want to start wars. Must be something in the water.

[Viking]

Yup that's a fair example of fascism.

NB: What is it with the Nobel Peace Prize? The ones that win it seem to want to start wars. Must be something in the water.


Yeah, it's a little known secret that the "Peace Prize" award actually is a bottle of water.

[InsaneApache]

Well what with Obama getting it and then bombing the shit out of civilians and then the 'peaceful' EU gets it and stirs up a hornets nest in The Ukraine by trying to bribe its citizens to overthrow a legitimate democratically elected government, it sure had better taste nice.

[Gilrandir]

I love you :laugh4:
This falls short of what I expected. I counted on "Will you marry me?" Well, perhaps we shouldn't be hurrying. We haven't met each other's parents yet. :laugh3:

[Gilrandir]

His party, Nazi, has 1/3 of the seat in the Ukrainian Parliament.
In the Ukrainian parliament, where Svoboda holds an unprecedented 37 seats,
You contradict yourself: Ukrainian parliament consists of 450 members. If a third were to represent Svoboda they should total 150 seats. And in Hungary Jobbik has 20% of seats. You should be more terrified of Hungary what with the greater percentage of nazis and with it being geographically closer to France.

[Gilrandir]

It has been argued that most people in the easternmost regions are rather indifferent (http://time.com/69083/ukraine-donetsk-separatists-russia-kiev/) to what is currently going on there; which could make one wonder who it is that grab guns and claim to speak on behalf of the people.

I have offered my vision (corroborated by what separatists themselves admit) that the most professional detachments of them were trained and given assignments in Crimea. Some of their leaders (Pushilin, for instance) are readily accepted and given floor to speak publicly in Moscow. The rest of the militant part of separatists (as locals admit) are often titushki.
So the majority of people in the East (as it is happening in Odessa or Kharkiv) would put up with the current government in Kyiv if the situation were not "stimulated" by the Kremlin (militarily) and Yanukovych (financially).

[Gilrandir]

Talk about putting out fire with gasoline.
Correction: Putin out fire with gasoline.

[Gilrandir]

I am just fed-up by the hypocrisy of the ones blindly supporting the actual Ukrainian men in power, as it was incorruptible vs corruption, democracy vs autocracy, and good vs evil, when, actually, Putin is using the tools we used in the past.

At present it is the hope of stabilty (however fragile it may seem) vs anarchy and street wars, I'm afraid.