IMMIGRATION thread

[Idaho]

Why do we need to allow ISIS a free rein whilst dealing with social deprivation? It's not like we can't afford to do both at the same time. In any case, we can deal with extremist recruiters by blocking the import of foreign clerics and blocking the return of madrassees. Homegrown Muslims who don't look abroad for illumination don't tend to be a problem, as they're just as British as anyone else. It's those who follow foreign clerics and those who decide to study in religious schools abroad (or worse) who cause problems.
Why do they look abroad? Why do they alienated from Europe society? Ask Frag and he'll tell you it's because Islam itself demands it. But that just doesn't stack up. Yes there are a lot of cultural issues going on - but that's only a small piece of the puzzle. Let's also look at employment rates, education outcomes, etc.

[Fragony]

I can go with that as long if islam isn't put out of the equation

[CrossLOPER]

I wasnt actually expecting someone to deflect that hard. It is rather sad really.
Learn to post sources that are not written by backwoods shack rapists.

[CrossLOPER]

When I went to Georgia Tech, we would have these a-hole fanatics who would reserve the outdoor speech space near the culture center nearly every month. I am pretty sure they were Westborough Baptist Church members. Down the road at Georgia State, they would get in people's faces and yell at how you are going to hell, and have you charged for assault if you pushed them away.

Sounds like these Morality Police were a lot more polite.

[Fisherking]

Learn to post sources that are not written by backwoods shack rapists.

It is his source of data. If you want to discuss and argue, logic dictates that you can not disavow a source simply on your perceptions and predigest.

Ranting and raving about sources is not just childish, it is also a logical fallacy known as cherry picking. Then there is that ad hominem again.

Where is the proof of your accusation?

[Fisherking]

When I went to Georgia Tech, we would have these a-hole fanatics who would reserve the outdoor speech space near the culture center nearly every month. I am pretty sure they were Westborough Baptist Church members. Down the road at Georgia State, they would get in people's faces and yell at how you are going to hell, and have you charged for assault if you pushed them away.

Sounds like these Morality Police were a lot more polite.

I have seen elsewhere, were Sharia patrols in Germany were accused of pushing and verbally abusing some passers by. I don't know if it was this group or others. Obviously they were not charged with it on the night of their arrest.

[Pannonian]

Why do they look abroad? Why do they alienated from Europe society? Ask Frag and he'll tell you it's because Islam itself demands it. But that just doesn't stack up. Yes there are a lot of cultural issues going on - but that's only a small piece of the puzzle. Let's also look at employment rates, education outcomes, etc.

Then do it as a two pronged solution. We'll address the social deprivation issues, which Muslims supposedly disproportionately suffer from, that they have in common with other cultures. And in return, we demand loyalty to the British idea. If we address the social issues, and it's an ongoing thing, and they continue to look abroad for an identity, they've had their chance and blown it. And let's not forget, the state has already spent goodness knows how much in raising them to adulthood, in common with all other children in the country. They've already had a boon. If we take one more step for them, and it's still not enough to satisfy them, they're not worth the effort.

There are lots of people who suffer from wide gaps between a society built for the rich and the situation that they're in. But no other groups take such a militant stance as Islamists, who take out their ire on others who might legitimately have complaints. Why should they get a free pass, unlike every other group in the UK?

[Greyblades]

Learn to post sources that are not written by backwoods shack rapists.
http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/762/009/74d.jpg

[Greyblades]

I realize that talking about no go zones is a futile effort as noone can agree what constitutes one and until it is officially recognised, like it is in sweden, it is impossible to establish their existance as immutable fact, despite several indicators that such places are developing.
A subset of society withdrawing from the rest is not new or unique, behavior like harrassing those who tresspass in thier "muslim areas" (as seen here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2y5n-hAnUE)and here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYRl_9QUjk4)) would not seem out of place if done by US gang-bangers or Mexican cartels.

It is the extent that the muslims communities of britain go to segregate themselves that is the defining and most worrying part of the issue; going to the extent of attempting to replace the english common law through establishing sharia courts (Documented here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gZCFdHkd4A) and here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQ3PIhFHDdE)) and there have been some attempts to enforce it upon others through threats (http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/241369/Wear-scarf-or-we-kill-you-Muslims-told-woman)and the occasional attack (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2667109/Gang-five-men-smashed-American-tourists-eye-socket-bottle-Jagermeister-drinking-wrestling-hands.html).

The replacement of the local law with an older extremely archaic systems and imposition of said law upon both its members and those who intrude upon thier territory is a mode of behavior completely unseen in all other British demographics native and immigrant.

[CrossLOPER]

Ranting and raving about sources is not just childish, it is also a logical fallacy known as cherry picking.
Irony.

http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/762/009/74d.jpg
This is an upgrade from your initial post. Well done.

[drone]

When I went to Georgia Tech, we would have these a-hole fanatics who would reserve the outdoor speech space near the culture center nearly every month. I am pretty sure they were Westborough Baptist Church members. Down the road at Georgia State, they would get in people's faces and yell at how you are going to hell, and have you charged for assault if you pushed them away.

That's been going on at Tech forever. It was Preacher Jim in my time, he would berate the females for getting educated instead of married and pregnant, and the males for replacing God for science. His crew would never get in your face though, as much as he got heckled. We always thought it was an initiation rite for whatever church he was in. Sounds like the GState crew is a little more in line with Westboro (who aren't really a church but a law firm).

[Greyblades]

Im still convinced it was a 4chan prank.

[Idaho]

I have seen elsewhere, were Sharia patrols in Germany were accused of pushing and verbally abusing some passers by. I don't know if it was this group or others. Obviously they were not charged with it on the night of their arrest.

You paint Germans as these peaceable, gentle folk, easily intimidated :laugh4: Try s**t like that in many parts of Germany and you are going to get a serious kicking.

[Fisherking]

You paint Germans as these peaceable, gentle folk, easily intimidated :laugh4: Try s**t like that in many parts of Germany and you are going to get a serious kicking.

Expert on Germany are you? :dizzy2: When was the last time you were here?

[Idaho]

Expert on Germany are you? :dizzy2: When was the last time you were here?

This time last year. Was there a couple of times in 2014, 3 times in 2013.

[Fisherking]

Then all I can say is that you mistake their outspokenness for confrontationalism. They have a very developed sense of proper comportment and adherence to societal rules. Any reply to their admonishments are totally unexpected on their part. However, admonishing them for what they see as perfectly acceptable behaviour or physically touching them, let-alone shoving them, would be seen as outrageous.

Unless you spend all your time in the red-light districts of Berlin, Frankfurt, Hamburg, Duisburg, Cologne or Düsseldorf you are not likely to become a crime victim.

If you have ever encountered physically aggressive Germans you are hanging out in the wrong part of town.

[Gilrandir]

is it xenophobic to discuss a problem supported by facts?


I've been called racist for being able to know a Mongol from a European by sight, so ...

[Gilrandir]

If you have ever encountered physically aggressive Germans you are hanging out in the wrong part of town.

... or supporting a wrong football team.

[Fisherking]

I've been called racist for being able to know a Mongol from a European by sight, so ...

Then that is just a naked attempt to redefine meanings. And then only to suite their agenda.

It is also very hypocritical of them. They insist on enforcing a supposed standard of tolerance on people by being extremely intolerant and applying labels on them using their own arbitrary definitions.

It is an obvious fallacy. Perhaps, also a cognitive disorder.

[Fisherking]

... or supporting a wrong football team.

lol the incidence of that in Germany is very much lower than in several other European Nations.

[I of the Storm]

Indeed. You can always have a bad luck evening and run into a bunch of hooligans looking for some recreational violence. But usually it's pretty civilized around here. You definitely do not run the risk of getting caught in a gang shootout crossfire or getting shot by the police for obscure reasons.

What I don't remember: were they going around admonishing basically everybody or did they do that selectively to people who looked like a muslim background to them?

Also, Fisherking, what other sharia police incidents here in Germany are you referring to? I know of only one.

[Fisherking]

Indeed. You can always have a bad luck evening and run into a bunch of hooligans looking for some recreational violence. But usually it's pretty civilized around here. You definitely do not run the risk of getting caught in a gang shootout crossfire or getting shot by the police for obscure reasons.

What I don't remember: were they going around admonishing basically everybody or did they do that selectively to people who looked like a muslim background to them?

Also, Fisherking, what other sharia police incidents here in Germany are you referring to? I know of only one. I've not tried to find the old articles but there were several patrols over a week or two before the arrest. I think I recall they were in a couple of cities.

[Idaho]

Unless you spend all your time in the red-light districts of.....Frankfurt.... you are not likely to become a crime victim.

If you have ever encountered physically aggressive Germans you are hanging out in the wrong part of town.
Heh... Yep. That was where I was 3 of those times :laugh4:

[Idaho]

lol the incidence of that in Germany is very much lower than in several other European Nations.

Yeah, German football fans are more likely to be found fast asleep in the stadiums ;)

[Fragony]

Indeed. You can always have a bad luck evening and run into a bunch of hooligans looking for some recreational violence. But usually it's pretty civilized around here. You definitely do not run the risk of getting caught in a gang shootout crossfire or getting shot by the police for obscure reasons.

What I don't remember: were they going around admonishing basically everybody or did they do that selectively to people who looked like a muslim background to them?

Also, Fisherking, what other sharia police incidents here in Germany are you referring to? I know of only one.

It's a creeping poison, not a knockout punch. We got the clock, they got the time.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

You are a marvel PVC. You put a load of nonsense further up, then you post something incisive like this. It's like the lucid moments of a drunk.

If I was drunk I'd be out hitting on students and then deciding not to go home with them at the end of the night because they're too young for me.

[Fisherking]

Refugees as a profit making enterprise: http://journal-neo.org/2015/12/18/soros-plays-both-ends-in-syria-refugee-chaos/

From a darling of the left.

[Gilrandir]

lol the incidence of that in Germany is very much lower than in several other European Nations.

I meant that if an English fan were going to pick up a fight in Germany he would have it.

[Fragony]

Can take it too far, Denmark is thinking about confiscating money over 400 euro and juwels. Law hasn't passed yet but that's pretty repulsive, there is a diifference between being stern and being inhuman imo

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Refugees as a profit making enterprise: http://journal-neo.org/2015/12/18/soros-plays-both-ends-in-syria-refugee-chaos/

From a darling of the left.

George Soros is the man who kicked the UK out of the EMU just because he could.

[Fisherking]

How are people to react?

The refugee crises is a manufactured, for profit, crises to cause misery on all sides, under the guise of humanitarianism. The Strength of human compassion is turned against us to cause chaos and promote corporate goals.

To turn them away is portrayed as inhumane and to accept them is to destroy the fabric of Western Society and invite our own destruction.

Make no mistake! That is the goal of international Corporatists. Soros is not alone.

[Fisherking]

Can take it too far, Denmark is thinking about confiscating money over 400 euro and juwels. Law hasn't passed yet but that's pretty repulsive, there is a diifference between being stern and being inhuman imo

Look at it for what it is. It is deterrence. It is extreme and unfair but to avoid it they simply don’t go there.

[Fragony]

Look at it for what it is. It is deterrence. It is extreme and unfair but to avoid it they simply don’t go there.

Just close the borders, is what we all should do, enough is enough

[Beskar]

Just close the borders, is what we all should do, enough is enough

Would suck to find out that your holiday has been cancelled because the destination country decided to close the borders. They generally would not get a refund.

Then there is the economic impact of the tourist industry because they holiday makers are not bringing money into the economy, which mean there are job losses and closures.

Now you have a bunch of homegrown natives with no money, which means they are now unable to shop, pay bills, contribute to the economy which means further closures and job losses are abound.

Then if you are a port nation too, it means ships and transports are not able to dock due to being unable to leave the ships, or told to go elsewhere, which ruins imports into the country, forcing supply issues locally which causes prices to rise due to high demand and low supply. Even then if you are landlocked, you closed your borders to foreign supply vehicles and drivers.

Now you just ruined your countries economy and refugees don't want to go there. Congratulations!

[Fragony]

You make it sound so complicated, we could travel over Europe just fine with pasports and ID-cards when there were active border-controls. When outsids from Europe, demand a visum. Refugees must ask for asylum in the first safe country they enter. These are migrants not regugees. What 's in Callais aren't refugees either they are migrants as well.

That eastblock farmhorse Merkel with her messias-complex caused a lot of trouble with changing the rules.

[Fisherking]

You make it sound so complicated, we could travel over Europe just fine with pasports and ID-cards when there were active border-controls. When outsids from Europe, demand a visum. Refugees must ask for asylum in the first safe country they enter. These are migrants not regugees. What 's in Callais aren't refugees either they are migrants as well.

That eastblock farmhorse Merkel with her messias-complex caused a lot of trouble with changing the rules.

Hold your horses. Merkel is a politician. Germany is open to receiving refugees because almost every German family has a member or two or four who were refugees at the end of the Second World War. It was very predictable. Just about any German Politician would have done the same.

Now, why did the migrant crises arise and why did they choose Germany is much more telling.

We have know for months that NGOs sponsored and created by Soros were funding and encouraging flight from Turkey and other Mid East and Northern African Countries. Much in the same way that child migrants began flooding the US border previously.

There is also analysis of social media that show most of the recommendations that made Germany the IN Destination came from locations in the US and UK. Only a small percentage, later on, came from Germany its self.

This was not a spontaneous event. It was an orchestrated and facilitated event, using displaced people as pawns in a political-economic game for power and wealth.

I don't put it beyond the pale for Merkel to have had foreknowledge but given German politics I don't see how she could have done much else.

[Fragony]

Anything besides chosing to ignore the Dublin treaty? Unforgivable mistake. Mutti Theresa isn't going to be remembered how she wanted.

[Pannonian]

Hold your horses. Merkel is a politician. Germany is open to receiving refugees because almost every German family has a member or two or four who were refugees at the end of the Second World War. It was very predictable. Just about any German Politician would have done the same.

Now, why did the migrant crises arise and why did they choose Germany is much more telling.

We have know for months that NGOs sponsored and created by Soros were funding and encouraging flight from Turkey and other Mid East and Northern African Countries. Much in the same way that child migrants began flooding the US border previously.

There is also analysis of social media that show most of the recommendations that made Germany the IN Destination came from locations in the US and UK. Only a small percentage, later on, came from Germany its self.

This was not a spontaneous event. It was an orchestrated and facilitated event, using displaced people as pawns in a political-economic game for power and wealth.

I don't put it beyond the pale for Merkel to have had foreknowledge but given German politics I don't see how she could have done much else.

WTH?

[Greyblades]

Afghan migrants set up homeless camp at the site of Paris terror attack memorial to protest against lack of housing (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3370862/Afghan-migrants-set-homeless-camp-site-Paris-terror-attack-memorial-protest-against-lack-housing.html)


Afghan asylum-seekers have set up a homeless camp at the site of a prominent Paris terror attack memorial in protest at the lack of migrant housing.

The migrants have laid down mattresses and blankets at the busy Place de la Republique in Paris, where tens of thousands held a march of solidarity in the wake of the attacks.

The location of a tribute to those killed on November 13, the area is now been covered in protest signs and debris from the migrants living in the area.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/12/22/18/2F91778600000578-0-image-a-7_1450809215857.jpg
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/12/22/18/2F91764600000578-0-image-a-8_1450809223664.jpg
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/12/22/18/2F91780A00000578-0-image-a-16_1450809338086.jpg

[Gilrandir]

Ankle bracelets as an option for curbing terrorism?
http://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article150499918/CSU-auf-Kampflinie-gegen-Islamisten-und-Terroristen.html

[Fragony]

You know what I'm talking about, Merkel schaft das, who would like to violate her anyway

Why are the few that did get caught not on the plane right now?

[Fisherking]

What ever are you talking about? German Sexual Assaults on New Years Eve? Never heard a thing about it.

Police and German national media have been accused of a cover-up after it took days to clarify that the perpetrators were a large crowd of around 1,000 men "who from appearance were largely from the north African or Arab world" as police chief Wolfgang Albers said on Monday.

As this was posted 40 min ago, looks like no one else did either. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35231046

[Fragony]

Hardly surprising. Almost a hundred records of at least assaults in Collongne alone. Females were 'tunneled' by about a 1000 .arabs/north African males, got touched, robbed and even raped. Not just in Collogne. All who who were actually caught are children of childless mutti Merkel. Well done, not even Sweden got fucked up this much.

For the German-challenged http://www.dw.com/en/string-of-new-years-eve-sexual-assaults-outrages-cologne/a-18958334

You let in thousands of people who see western women as fair game, what could possibly go wrong

[Don Corleone]

This is terribly unfortunate and distressing. On the one hand, even if the numbers of perpetrators approached 10,000, that would be a tiny fraction of the 1M refugees that Germany accepted in 2015, forget the even greater numbers of men of Arabic and North African descent (those on visa, those naturalized, and even those native born). Sadly, this will generate a backlash of violence against all the super-majority of peaceful refugees and others just looking for a better life.

That being said, the crime itself is intolerable. Sweeping it under the rug in the hopes of avoiding offense to the arabic/NA community at large or denying the common origin of the attacks to the larger general public is going to undermine confidence and healthy respect in necessary authority.

I would advise the German government that they go the other way on this. In a very high profile fashion, invite the enclave community leaders to very publicly participate in a stern, widespread and unflinching disciplinary response. Those who can be proven to have participated should be either jailed (citizens) or deported (refugees or documented/undocumented immigrants).

Sure, there may be some howls from the enclave communities, but this is an issue that's going on across racial and religoius lines. The old lie of "well, boys will be boys" must be stamped out forever. I personally don't care if my one of my daughters got groped by a Syrian refugee who's pissed that he's unemployed and living on handouts or a navy pilot who's drunk and letting off some steam... either way I want the man held accountable to the fullest extent of the law.

We don't like to admit it, but we live in a rape culture. This is just one more facet of it. We shouldn't tolerate it from new immigrants and refugees, but we shouldn't tolerate from those who've been here for a while either.

[Sarmatian]

Does everyone ignore this part of the article?


The pretty Christmas market and medieval setting may look idyllic, but at Christmas and New Year the area around Cologne Cathedral is a notorious danger zone when it comes to pickpockets and theft.

I wonder if it was like this in the 90's, when Serbs were actively demonized. There are hundreds of links about it, very little substance and all most likely originate from the same source. There is difference in the tone, though. jihadiwatch.org, for instance, talks about "thousands of Muslims walking around assaulting women and committing rapes", while thelocal.de also mentions words of the police chief of Cologne who said that a lot of perpetrators have been known to the police for years and are locals, not refugees.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that haters saw some Arabs in the crowd and decided to blow it out of proportions, Fragony style.

[Husar]

Haha, I only came here to see if Fragony had already started the inevitable thread.

I agree with Don, the nazis will probably look for some poor guys to beat up so both sides end up creating more victims while the actual perpetrators may get away.

The press totally ignored it, that's why it is in all the public and private news outlets I guess.

Merkel ignored the issue by saying they should be persecuted "with the full force of the law".
Whether the law here is actually up to the task is up for debate though. No reason to vote for parties that would finance gas chambers, but I do wonder why we only know the extremes. There is not much to be found in much of the public debate between "all immigrants are kittens" and "all immigrants are rapist criminals, children included". Therein lies the real tragedy.

[Papewaio]

Rape victims per annum 9/100,000 in Germany reported.

Cologne metro: 1,000,000.
So 90 rape victims per annum in Cologne or .25 rapes per day.

Cologne regions: 10,000,000
So 900 rape victims per annum or 2.5 in the region per day.

1 rape victim is too many. But it is not proven it was a refugee nor does it make a statistical difference against the local background rate.

[Greyblades]

We don't like to admit it, but we live in a rape culture.

No we dont.

You might, I cant speak for greece after all, but here we are so rabidly anti rape even an false claim will destory the life of a suspected perpritrator even after it is debunked.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Rape victims per annum 9/100,000 in Germany reported.

Cologne metro: 1,000,000.
So 90 rape victims per annum in Cologne or .25 rapes per day.

Cologne regions: 10,000,000
So 900 rape victims per annum or 2.5 in the region per day.

1 rape victim is too many. But it is not proven it was a refugee nor does it make a statistical difference against the local background rate.

OK, now calculate for sexual assaults - irrc 80 were reported in one night, one was a rape.

So that's the one rape for four days in the Metro area or 1/90th of the yearly total.

Now - aside from that, what percentage do the 79 sexual assaults represent?

Also, according to the local German police these sexual assault at new year are different to the normal robbings and pick-pockets.

[a completely inoffensive name]

The answer is more unchecked immigration.

[Papewaio]

OK, now calculate for sexual assaults - irrc 80 were reported in one night, one was a rape.

Now - aside from that, what percentage do the 79 sexual assaults represent?

Also, according to the local German police these sexual assault at new year are different to the normal robbings and pick-pockets.

Sexual violence 56.56/100,000 or 566 per year in Cologne metro or 2 a day. So a 40 fold increase for the Metro.
Cologne region 5656 or 20/day.

What percentage of these are local vs refugees?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

OK, so a 40-fold increase.

That's a big deal.

Reports are the majority of the assaults were committed by groups of Arabs/North Africans.

This is believable because we're talking about young men who have a very different view of what a "proper" woman is who have just escaped a war zone.

[Montmorency]

No we dont.

You might, I cant speak for greece after all, but here we are so rabidly anti rape even an false claim will destory the life of a suspected perpritrator even after it is debunked.

This doesn't speak against the existence of a rape culture; it speaks for the existence of a broad undercurrent in social justice activist thought and practice that sees public shaming (http://www.amazon.com/Is-Shame-Necessary-Uses-Tool/dp/1501201085) as a primary vehicle of effecting change and feels vindication through the 'correction' of individual instances as a buildup to institutional change. The Internet enables this, as well as a more general 'outrage first, questions later' attitude.


By the by, if whatever happened over New Years was constituted and organized by long-standing Muslim residents and citizens, or even refugees from North Africa (as opposed to the recent influx), then all the more reason to do well by the Asian Muslims and Syrians who are freshly arrived. If they understand it as "Europeans are our countrymen", then they are less likely, even where remaining poor and marginalized, to fall under the influence of troublemakers, criminals, and fifth columns.

[Greyblades]

In this time of buried heads and plugged ears I find it funny that the norwegains are once again ahead of the curb, as instead of denying the existance of the immigrant population's often backwards cultural mores that cause such problems they are actively trying to change it through education (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/20/world/europe/norway-offers-migrants-a-lesson-in-how-to-treat-women.html?smid=tw-nytimes&smtyp=cur).


This doesn't speak against the existence of a rape cultureI would have to disagree. The very idea is an utter fiction; modern British culture is not in any way one that considers blaming rape victims and young men raping as a normal part of life.

To suggest otherwise is utterly anathema to reality; that rape is so frowned upon and the victims so valued that thier word is taken as golden truth by many and any who is accused, once made public, becomes largely unemployable, regardless of truth of claim.

[Montmorency]

the victims so valued that thier word is taken as golden truth by many and any who is accused, once made public, becomes largely unemployable, regardless of truth of claim.

That's completely false, however. In the handful of cases where there is a public furor over some case, it is almost always because a well-connected university student forces it into public attention through publications and rallies. This puts pressure on the university as a corporation and institution, which is why they so often react by quickly shafting one or the other party (whichever is most expedient in the event) and hoping something else captures the public's attention soon. As I have already pointed out, what you are seeing as the ostracization of the accused is actually the volatile reaction of activists eager to "make an example" out of someone. In the wider world, they don't usually face any stigma or professional difficulty predicated upon having been accused of rape, if it even comes up at all.

Meanwhile, rape accusations that come from the countless individuals who don't become an Internet favorite or have the capacity to get a horde of activists on the warpath - those individuals (many male, by the way) have their claims taken about as seriously as a 5-year-old's claim that there is a growling wolf in the basement.

Reorganize your understanding of the issue.

[Greyblades]

That's completely false, however. [...] In the wider world, they don't usually face any stigma or professional difficulty predicated upon having been accused of rape, if it even comes up at all. No, that is itself false. Those accused are prone to being refused from higher job placments due to companies not wanting to risk a potential controversy of the accusations proving true.
Additionally the friends and family of the accused will never be free of the doubt that "this man I've known for a long time might be a rapist" and those thoughts tear those bonds apart.

Accusations are an everlasting stain socially and professionally. Add that to the fact that those who accuse are automatically treated with the utmost seriousness by the law, as well as a pre-dispostion to belief by onlookers, and I have no idea how you could ever think ours conforms to any definition of rape culture.


Reorganize your understanding of the issue. I think I prefer it when people tell me to fuck off. Much less intolerably smug than this pretention of accuracy.

[Montmorency]

I think I prefer it when people tell me to fuck off. Much less intolerably smug than this pretention of accuracy.

OK.

Stop making :daisy: up.

[Myth]

I came to this thread and I have been disappointed.

"But, but, there's no EVIDENCE that the refugees did it."

"The nazis, it's all in their heads! They saw some arabs and africans and blew it out of proportion!"

"It's only 1000 out of 1000000 it's statistically correct."

Yeah yeah. It's 1000 organized DAISIES groping and harassing white skinned blond gemran women for having the audacity to celebrate NYE outside without their leashes and ninja outfits!

The media is all hush-hush about it because we have to be tolerant. Well now. Merkel did want the immigrants to freshen up the gene pool. That's one way to do it.

Can you tell me what would have happened if 1000 strong aryan males had gathered near a mosque and had groped and put their fingers up the orifices of arab/african women coming out of said mosque? Why, it would have been an intenrational crisis. They would probably have been bombed by NATO by now.

[Fragony]

These are the childless mutti's little children, coooome to meeee. Face it Merkel has lost her mind and should be running around between padded walls in a selfhugsuit. Just look at her eyes

Edit, how typical. Collognes mayor responds. Good no? Women should keep their distance from men at carnaval. True. But that isn't what happened at New Years Eve. Is it so hard to admit that these were the childless muttii's little children who turned Collogne's station-area into the tahir-square.

lol gets even better, a website with advice, www.notgettingsexuallyassaultedby1000arabs.de. Ok I made the name up but it's there. Except any mention of Arabs. How did Germany ever build these nice skylines? Bit unpractical 'Gunter can you hand me the spade?' Sorry I only have a peace of metal that is attached to a wooden stick with the purpose of digging sand. 'yeah that'. Most valuable advice 'stay inside when you can'. Merkel's Germany.

[InsaneApache]

Haha, I only came here to see if Fragony had already started the inevitable thread.

I agree with Don, the nazis will probably look for some poor guys to beat up so both sides end up creating more victims while the actual perpetrators may get away.

The press totally ignored it, that's why it is in all the public and private news outlets I guess.

Merkel ignored the issue by saying they should be persecuted "with the full force of the law".
Whether the law here is actually up to the task is up for debate though. No reason to vote for parties that would finance gas chambers, but I do wonder why we only know the extremes. There is not much to be found in much of the public debate between "all immigrants are kittens" and "all immigrants are rapist criminals, children included". Therein lies the real tragedy.

I feel sorry for you, I really do. The mental contortions must keep you up at night mate.


German police have admitted to losing several urban areas to migrant gangs as so-called no-go zones, but this is possibly the first time a public square in the centre of a European city has been acknowledged by officials as having been lost to criminality, and out of the control of police at night.


“This means, they should go out and have fun, but they need to be better prepared, especially with the Cologne carnival coming up. For this, we will publish online guidelines* that these young women can read through to prepare themselves”.

Presumably this involves covering up from head to toe in clothing and only going out accompanied by a male relative.

Your country will be unrecognisable in a couple of years, if not sooner.

[Greyblades]

OK.

Stop making :daisy: up.
Took the words right out of my mouth, that and "stop denying :daisy:-ing reality."

[Viking]

This doesn't speak against the existence of a rape culture; it speaks for the existence of a broad undercurrent in social justice activist thought and practice that sees public shaming (http://www.amazon.com/Is-Shame-Necessary-Uses-Tool/dp/1501201085) as a primary vehicle of effecting change and feels vindication through the 'correction' of individual instances as a buildup to institutional change. The Internet enables this, as well as a more general 'outrage first, questions later' attitude.

How do you publicly shame someone for Xing in an X culture? Does the culture suffer from a lack of self-confidence? Are you referring to a subculture within a larger culture?

[Fragony]

Your country will be unrecognisable in a couple of years, if not sooner.

Never state the obvious it makes you look dumb. It isn't dumb but hey, according to the childless mutti it will all be fine if we all pray more. Talk about a religious nutjob childless mutti with a messias complex. And they do just that in her inner circles as well. She didn't just lose her mind but caused a lot of damage to all Europeans with just ignoring the Dublin treaty concerning the Schengen zone. Come to me little children. Screw that dumb-eyed farmhorse.

[Fisherking]

Haha, I only came here to see if Fragony had already started the inevitable thread.

I agree with Don, the nazis will probably look for some poor guys to beat up so both sides end up creating more victims while the actual perpetrators may get away.

The press totally ignored it, that's why it is in all the public and private news outlets I guess.

Merkel ignored the issue by saying they should be persecuted "with the full force of the law".
Whether the law here is actually up to the task is up for debate though. No reason to vote for parties that would finance gas chambers, but I do wonder why we only know the extremes. There is not much to be found in much of the public debate between "all immigrants are kittens" and "all immigrants are rapist criminals, children included". Therein lies the real tragedy.

The press here has been offering many apologies for their late reporting of it. It has resulted in some outrage though not what you might expect in other countries because of the fear of painting all with a broad brush.

I have only ever lived in southern Germany. I am no expert but have on several occasions had instruction courses on rape as it relates to Germany.
What I was taught was that it has always been viewed as a foreign crime.
From what I know, this is also proven to be true for almost all cases.
I was also taught that, usually, Germans saw rape as as bad as murder, or nearly so.
Maybe you as a native German can shed some light on this?

[Fragony]

The unnoficial press caught up soon enough here. But isn't all too obvious, you can haul someone out of the desert but you can't take out the desert. The west is too confusing 'I cannots touchies? wtf?' These people just don't belong here.

[Husar]

I came to this thread and I have been disappointed.

"But, but, there's no EVIDENCE that the refugees did it."

"The nazis, it's all in their heads! They saw some arabs and africans and blew it out of proportion!"

"It's only 1000 out of 1000000 it's statistically correct."

Yeah yeah. It's 1000 organized DAISIES groping and harassing white skinned blond gemran women for having the audacity to celebrate NYE outside without their leashes and ninja outfits!

The media is all hush-hush about it because we have to be tolerant. Well now. Merkel did want the immigrants to freshen up the gene pool. That's one way to do it.

Can you tell me what would have happened if 1000 strong aryan males had gathered near a mosque and had groped and put their fingers up the orifices of arab/african women coming out of said mosque? Why, it would have been an intenrational crisis. They would probably have been bombed by NATO by now.


These are the childless mutti's little children, coooome to meeee. Face it Merkel has lost her mind and should be running around between padded walls in a selfhugsuit. Just look at her eyes

Edit, how typical. Collognes mayor responds. Good no? Women should keep their distance from men at carnaval. True. But that isn't what happened at New Years Eve. Is it so hard to admit that these were the childless muttii's little children who turned Collogne's station-area into the tahir-square.

lol gets even better, a website with advice, www.notgettingsexuallyassaultedby1000arabs.de. Ok I made the name up but it's there. Except any mention of Arabs. How did Germany ever build these nice skylines? Bit unpractical 'Gunter can you hand me the spade?' Sorry I only have a peace of metal that is attached to a wooden stick with the purpose of digging sand. 'yeah that'. Most valuable advice 'stay inside when you can'. Merkel's Germany.


I feel sorry for you, I really do. The mental contortions must keep you up at night mate.





Presumably this involves covering up from head to toe in clothing and only going out accompanied by a male relative.

Your country will be unrecognisable in a couple of years, if not sooner.

Ya'll can't read...

http://www.tagesschau.de/inland/de-maiziere-koeln-103.html
http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/justiz/koeln-drei-verdaechtige-ermittelt-nach-uebergriffen-an-silvester-a-1070730.html
http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/justiz/frankfurt-polizei-ermittelt-in-zwei-faellen-wegen-belaestigungen-a-1070763.html
http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/inland/gibt-es-rechtsfreie-raeume-in-deutschland-14000167.html
http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/inland/koeln-meldet-inzwischen-106-anzeigen-nach-uebergriffen-an-silvester-14000124.html
http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/inland/christian-lindner-ruft-koelner-polizeipraesidenten-zum-ruecktritt-auf-14000424.html
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35237173

Who has the mental contortions about "the press is silent" or "Merkel supports this"?
And who is reading my "I agree with Don." as an excuse? Let me quote Don:

That being said, the crime itself is intolerable.

Ya'll seriously need to check yer preconceptions and read...

[Fragony]

Merkel just didn't expect this because she is a religionaly insane idiot with a messias-complex. Everybody else did.

[Don Corleone]

Speaking to the question of my assertion that we live in a rape culture... I should clarify that I'm speaking to the everyday occurrence in America. From regular business trips to UK and continental Europe, I believe you folks are more evolved on this issue than we are.

I'm not saying that every woman that claims rape should automatically be believed, or that false reports aren't made. Of course they are. The Duke Lacrosse case a couple of years ago certainly highlighted that. And yes, there is stigma attached to being on the receiving end of a rape accusation in some circles.

But my reason for making a statement like that...

-According to the FBI (not a policy group), only 1 in 10 sexual assaults gets reported.
-Also according to the FBI, only 1 in 10 sexual assaults that get reported actually have charges filed.
-Also, according to... you guessed it, the FBI, 1 in 20 perpetrators that get charged actually end up getting convicted.
-That means there's a 1 in 2000 chance you won't get away with it.
-Until a federal spending bill 2 years criminalized the practice, hospitals used to bill the victim for their rape kits in most jurisdictions.
-Unlike theft, assault, arson, murder of other serious crimes, rape trials are as much about the victim as they are about the defendant:
-What was she wearing
-What was her sexual history
-Was she alone? Why?
-Had she been drinking?
-Was she acquainted with the perpetrator? Did she agree to some consensual contact prior to the assault?

If Europe has evolved completely beyond the above, bravo. And that would seriously have me consider becoming an immigrant to Germany myself.

My original point however still stands. "Those filthy brownies are after our women" is so played out, I'm surprised you don't see it for what it is. 1) There's an overwhelming majority of those folks that are not involved in this and 2) if anybody goes after your women... there's your problem. If a Freemason burns my house down, I go after arsonists, not the Freemasons.

[Fragony]

You mean well but the correlations are indisputable. If you would say a sexist-culture I cannot disagree but is that all that horrible. its mutually exclusive. In any case, some nerve what these cultural-enrichers did. We are not to tolerate people who fell of their camel lost his tent and somehow ended up in Europe

[Beskar]

In this time of buried heads and plugged ears I find it funny that the norwegains are once again ahead of the curb, as instead of denying the existance of the immigrant population's often backwards cultural mores that cause such problems they are actively trying to change it through education (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/20/world/europe/norway-offers-migrants-a-lesson-in-how-to-treat-women.html?smid=tw-nytimes&smtyp=cur).

And this is the way things should be handled, through education and discussion.

[rvg]

People with culture are culturally enriching local women. Why do you ungrateful barbarians resist being culturally enriched?

[wooly_mammoth]

And this is the way things should be handled, through education and discussion.

Eh, this will sound emotional, but I always get so mad when things like this happen, being a kind-hearted mammoth that wouldn't hurt a daisy and all. I think it's a bit taffing late for education and discussion when an organized throng decides to go stone age on whatever women come at hand. I'm not saying to go full hitler on the animals, but I wouldn't be shy about letting the riot police have an off the record field day on each and every one of those deplorable genetic accidents that believe themselves to be men, followed up by a life of forced labor in the coal mine or something equivalent to that. I guess some form of (preferably painful) castration wouldn't be too extreme a measure in the given circumstances either.

I believe education and discussion should be a part of a human's life in an attempt to avoid this kind of downfall. If you get down into the kind of filth that those men indulged, I don't think you ever get to come out and clean yourself again. You are forever lost to society and simply constitute a danger for those around you.

[Viking]

I'm not saying that every woman that claims rape should automatically be believed, or that false reports aren't made. Of course they are. The Duke Lacrosse case a couple of years ago certainly highlighted that. And yes, there is stigma attached to being on the receiving end of a rape accusation in some circles.

But my reason for making a statement like that...

-According to the FBI (not a policy group), only 1 in 10 sexual assaults gets reported.
-Also according to the FBI, only 1 in 10 sexual assaults that get reported actually have charges filed.
-Also, according to... you guessed it, the FBI, 1 in 20 perpetrators that get charged actually end up getting convicted.
-That means there's a 1 in 2000 chance you won't get away with it.
-Until a federal spending bill 2 years criminalized the practice, hospitals used to bill the victim for their rape kits in most jurisdictions.

All fine and dandy, but how does this indicate that we are dealing with a "rape culture"? (it's not hard to think of alternative explanations)

Importantly, the statistics you've chosen do not include the perpetrators. How do they compare to the average individual? How do they score on empathy? How good are they at reading other people?

A relevant perspective:


In other studies, Treat and colleagues have found that men who have difficulties perceiving and remembering sexual interest are more likely to endorse rape myths. The endorsement of rape myths is generally seen as indicating an increased tendency to engage in sexual coercion and aggression.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/mental-mishaps/201201/is-she-interested

^ This could potentially be a biological failure.


-Unlike theft, assault, arson, murder of other serious crimes, rape trials are as much about the victim as they are about the defendant:
-What was she wearing
-What was her sexual history
-Was she alone? Why?
-Had she been drinking?
-Was she acquainted with the perpetrator? Did she agree to some consensual contact prior to the assault?

References? (e.g. for prevalence)

[Fragony]

People with culture are culturally enriching local women. Why do you ungrateful barbarians resist being culturally enriched?

I prefer 'mutually respected' heh

[Sarmatian]

Can you tell me what would have happened if 1000 strong aryan males had gathered near a mosque and had groped and put their fingers up the orifices of arab/african women coming out of said mosque? Why, it would have been an intenrational crisis. They would probably have been bombed by NATO by now.

There has been 576 criminal offences against refugees in the first nine months of 2015 and 285 attacks on refugee centers in July, August and September, most done by far right extremists, in Germany alone..

You wanna rethink your statement?

[Husar]

Eh, this will sound emotional, but I always get so mad when things like this happen, being a kind-hearted mammoth that wouldn't hurt a daisy and all. I think it's a bit taffing late for education and discussion when an organized throng decides to go stone age on whatever women come at hand. I'm not saying to go full hitler on the animals, but I wouldn't be shy about letting the riot police have an off the record field day on each and every one of those deplorable genetic accidents that believe themselves to be men, followed up by a life of forced labor in the coal mine or something equivalent to that. I guess some form of (preferably painful) castration wouldn't be too extreme a measure in the given circumstances either.

I believe education and discussion should be a part of a human's life in an attempt to avoid this kind of downfall. If you get down into the kind of filth that those men indulged, I don't think you ever get to come out and clean yourself again. You are forever lost to society and simply constitute a danger for those around you.

It makes me angry as well, but even angrier when the police cannot or does not stop these things. Maybe we need more guns again...
In the end it is indeed a political failure, we have achieved long jail terms and incredibly high fines for someone who copies a Disney movie while organized crimes has almost been welcomed here. The Italian, Lebanese, Balkan and whatever other mafia, rocker gangs, human trafficking, all gone up. No-go-zones for the police may not exist in the classic sense but in situations like these I wish to spawn a unit of knights of santiago as well. Overall though you go way too far, while I believe in immediate punishment and enforcing the peace through violence when needed, revenge and ongoing violence cannot be the answer. Neither can mass-deportations or sweeping generalizations, further ghettoization or mass-criminalization based on skin color. If you look for Germans who show similar behavior, you will usually find them among the poor strata of society, since Fragony like correlations, why does this one never come up? How many rich, educated immigrants riot in the streets?

Not to forget that a lot of those who rioted there were likely not ones who came with the latest waves of refugees, they organized themselves to come there apparently and some say there were known criminals among them who are known to the police for a while already. Not that it's very important either way as this shouldn't happen and lead to a rejection of asylum status. But what do you do with 3rd generation immigrants who are citizens? Jail them all? I mean you need a long-term solution either way and jail and violence should be temporary. Castration and other revenge acts may just lead to a jihadist army of eunuchs, hardly an improvement. :rolleyes:
Not to forget that barbarian punishments do not exactly show that we are any better.

Oh and not to forget that the number of policemen has been steadily reduced by politicians in many places, despite the fact that we still needquite a few of them. Somehow we are a richer society than ever, yet we cannot afford anything anymore. Oh wait, we bailed out all the banks, yeah, that sounds more important...


A relevant perspective:


In other studies, Treat and colleagues have found that men who have difficulties perceiving and remembering sexual interest are more likely to endorse rape myths. The endorsement of rape myths is generally seen as indicating an increased tendency to engage in sexual coercion and aggression.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/mental-mishaps/201201/is-she-interested

^ This could potentially be a biological failure.

So people who think most refugees/immigrants are rapists have a higher likelihood of being rapists themselves?

[Shaka_Khan]

I doubt that the police will catch all 1000 of them. Germany needs to increase police presence in the dangerous areas. The offenders will do this again if they feel that they can get away with it. In the American cities like Detroit and L.A. and in the Australian cities like Melbourne, cops are unable to stop gang violence. In these areas, bystanders become victims of gang rivalries because the gangs mistook them as rival gang members. If someone gets robbed or gets his or her car vandalized in these cities, the cops will say that the victim was at a sketchy area and will most likely do nothing about it. The cops accepted this as being normal. There are crazies in every city. However, some cities don't experience problems from them because those potential troublemakers know that they'd get in trouble if they attack people.

I for one believe that the offenders knew what they were doing was wrong. They assaulted a police woman who tried to stop them. It's a problem if the offenders aren't afraid of the police. Who's going to stop them? The lack of action is making these offenders feel more powerful. The best way to educate these offenders is to increase police presence. Then they'll know that Germany isn't allowing these offenses to happen. If an offender goes back to that train station and see an increase in the number of police, then that offender will know that Germany is doing something about this. If Germany doesn't, then they'll think the German government doesn't care. The German police should've reacted quickly with more police when it was happening.

[wooly_mammoth]

Husar

Of course you are totally right, I just felt the need to vent out a bit (but still, Builder be praised, hadst I a Hammer I would smash each of the perpetrators to tiniest pieces -.-). This is just unheard of. I won't put forward absurd dreams of a crimeless society, but something of this magnitude must never happen in Europe if we still claim to be a civilized part of the world.

[Fragony]

Thief references always +1

[Gilrandir]

There has been 576 criminal offences against refugees in the first nine months of 2015 and 285 attacks on refugee centers in July, August and September, most done by far right extremists, in Germany alone..

You wanna rethink your statement?

Inappropriate comparison. Those you speak of are ALIENS who came to an ALIEN country unbidden and were caught behaving unseemly. Those who were assaulted in Cologne are NATIVES who came to the square for marrymaking.

[Fragony]

Don't want to be the elephant, but women refugees are loose wild in asylum-centres as well. The little childrens of the childless mutti are testosteron-bombs. Gays and christians aren't safe there either and are going to get seperate quarters.


out, can take them out of the desert but you can't take out the desert.

[Shaka_Khan]

It all comes down to how the police handles this. If the offenders think they could get caught then they won't do it. Right now, they have this invincible feeling that they can't be touched by the police.

[InsaneApache]

It all comes down to how the police handles this. If the offenders think they could get caught then they won't do it. Right now, they have this invincible feeling that they can't be touched by the police.

Funny you should say that....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9TOdMzOH1U

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Well, I made the point a few months ago that these "migrants" demanding the right to settle in Germany has an excessive sense of entitlement and I think this is the same thing. I sounds to me like most of the sexual assaults in Cologne were gropings rather than rapes or sustained physical contact.

Obviously being groped is a horrible violation for a woman (or a man) and it shouldn't happen but I suspect these gangs of young men thought what they were doing was socially acceptable - given where they come from and how the German girls were dressed. Then you have to consider that these people have been told not to be afraid of the Police, because they're there to help, and I suspect that has translated into a lack of fear of punishment in their minds.

This is just the natural, and predictable, result of a large new immigrant community that has appeared in a country over night.

As to what to do - to begin with anyone arrested who is a recent immigrant whose status has not yet been determined should be deported. Germany should not accept refugees from Syria who are going to do these sorts of things to women, the convention of refugees was not designed to protect men like that and they are not deserving of sanctuary.

In the medium term the refugee communities need to be broken up and spread out as much as possible. Obviously immediate families should be kept together but there should be a policy of dispersing these people around the country so that they are encouraged to integrate rather than form ghettoes.

Edit: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35249612

Ah, so a bit more than groping, sexually aggravated muggings. These men were a bit more than just "gropey" in these touching too.

[Gilrandir]

Germany should not accept refugees from Syria who are going to do these sorts of things to women


They don't cofess at the bordercrossing what are they going to do. Hence, no admittance whatever.

[Kralizec]

I doubt that the police will catch all 1000 of them.

The articles I've read about it are vague, but my impression is that 1,000 refers to all the young men gathered in the street and not the perpetrators. The reports say that large groups of men preyed on lone victims, "large groups" possibly meaning 20 or more, but the idea of 1,000 sexual predators gathering in one place to cause trouble seems ridiculous.

And yes, of course that is still bad, and it probably has more than a little to do with the background of the perpetrators. One would hope it's not necessary to explicitly say so after a post like this one, but you know, internets :rolleyes:

[Greyblades]

Pray tell, why Germany should spend time and resources educating people who should not be there in the first place?

Well, according to this guy (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34172729) it's because germany needs the infusion of young workers due to an aging population.

[Greyblades]

Well things got a lot more complicated at the border. Islamic State can make fake Syrian passports. (http://in.reuters.com/article/mideast-crisis-usa-passports-idINKBN0TV03U20151212)

[Fragony]

Well things got a lot more complicated at the border. Islamic State can make fake Syrian passports. (http://in.reuters.com/article/mideast-crisis-usa-passports-idINKBN0TV03U20151212)

That's old news, Turkey's maffia have been doing that for months, costs a few thousands. We have no idea who's who

[Greyblades]

But my reason for making a statement like that...

-According to the FBI (not a policy group), only 1 in 10 sexual assaults gets reported.
-Also according to the FBI, only 1 in 10 sexual assaults that get reported actually have charges filed.
-Also, according to... you guessed it, the FBI, 1 in 20 perpetrators that get charged actually end up getting convicted.
-That means there's a 1 in 2000 chance you won't get away with it.

To say I am not impressed, with how you can come to that conclusion, would be an understatment.

That the first statistic is an estimate based on... I cant imagine, cynicism? How can anyone give accurate stats on things that are unreported?

The second statistic is entirely based on victim willingness to press charges, the motives of which cannot be stated with confidence as each one could be anything from "well it was just a kiss, we were on a date so maybe I shouldn't be getting so worked up" to "his family will kill me if I press charges" or even "I'm lying and I can't trust the court will fall for it"

And the third is completely irrelevant as we have no idea how many of those 9/10 unconvicted cases were innocent and thus justified.

From this you cannot in good conscience say sexual assulters have a 1 in 2000 chance of getting caught.

Compounding this is my understanding that in america sexual assault has a wide reaching definition, some would say absurdly so. How much of that useless 1 in 2000 stat regarding rape and how much is just accidentally overstepping the desired bounds in a date? We cannot know.


-Until a federal spending bill 2 years criminalized the practice, hospitals used to bill the victim for their rape kits in most jurisdictions. Was this a "rape culture" problem or a privatised medicine wanting to make money problem?


-Unlike theft, assault, arson, murder of other serious crimes, rape trials are as much about the victim as they are about the defendant:
-What was she wearing
-What was her sexual history
-Was she alone? Why?
-Had she been drinking?
-Was she acquainted with the perpetrator? Did she agree to some consensual contact prior to the assault?
The first and third questions is irrelavent and should be rightly ridiculed but the rest are very important in determining concent, as a major problem in rape accusations is victims retroactively denying concent.


My original point however still stands. "Those filthy brownies are after our women" is so played out, I'm surprised you don't see it for what it is. 1) There's an overwhelming majority of those folks that are not involved in this and 2) if anybody goes after your women... there's your problem. If a Freemason burns my house down, I go after arsonists, not the Freemasons. Agreed, and if the arsonists are Freemasons we should go after them regardless of their status.

[Greyblades]

The report says Islamic State has access to Syrian government passport printing machines and blank passports, raising the possibility the travel documents could be faked, CNN reported, citing a law enforcement source. (cnn.it/1Rf6lE1)
Last I checked Turkey doesnt have the official passport printers.

[Montmorency]

And the third is completely irrelevant as we have no idea how many of those 9/10 unconvicted cases were innocent and thus justified.

It is quite important as it indicates that the social consequences of rape accusations are minimal unless you go so far as to assume that in all the unreported cases and all the cases that do not see court, there are still fewer 'true rapes' than there are spurious trials, and that in such unreported cases and cases that do not see court, that the accused are so much as inconvenienced, let alone penalized by employers and peers who never hear word of the matter anyway.


How much of that useless 1 in 2000 stat regarding rape and how much is just accidentally overstepping the desired bounds in a date? We cannot know.

That's more to do with fundamental disagreements over what constitutes "rape" than any legitimate methodological or statistical complaint.


Is this a "rape culture" problem or a privatised medicine wanting to make money problem?

What privatized medicine? Rape kits are virtually never tested, as they are tested in-house and police see their priorities as (anywhere) else.


but the rest are very important in determining concent

Inebriation legally precludes consent.

Sexual history would be even less relevant here than a record of plagiarism.

If we take consent earlier in an encounter or in an earlier encounter to be meaningful, then we must ask of those who insist that this is so how it can be judged to affect the case in any principled way.


as a major problem in rape accusations is victims retroactively denying concent.

:on_hi:How do you figure that?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

The articles I've read about it are vague, but my impression is that 1,000 refers to all the young men gathered in the street and not the perpetrators. The reports say that large groups of men preyed on lone victims, "large groups" possibly meaning 20 or more, but the idea of 1,000 sexual predators gathering in one place to cause trouble seems ridiculous.

And yes, of course that is still bad, and it probably has more than a little to do with the background of the perpetrators. One would hope it's not necessary to explicitly say so after a post like this one, but you know, internets :rolleyes:


+1 Internets for stating what should be obvious, but isn't.

A back of the envelope figure for you -

90 reported sexual assaults, lets assume groups of three women and make an allowance for unreported assaults, say 35 separate instances of gang attacks - reports of groups of 20-30 men , average 25.

So - 25*35=875.

That assumes the number of unreported offences is quite low and each group of men only attacked a single group of women. I would say the latter assumption was relatively sound, as I can't really see groups forming, assaulting girls and then moving on to assault more girls. That kind of mob action tends to be a one off thing rather than something you repeat throughout the night.

In any case, 1,000 suspects is clearly not an improbable estimate.

[Greyblades]

It is quite important as it indicates that the social consequences of rape accusations are minimal
No it doesnt. It indicates that the Legal consequences of rape accusations are minimal.


unless you go so far as to assume that in all the unreported cases and all the cases that do not see court, there are still fewer 'true rapes' than there are spurious trials, and that in such unreported cases and cases that do not see court, that the accused are so much as inconvenienced, let alone penalized by employers and peers who never hear word of the matter anyway.
If they dont hear a word of the matter. If they do, like say through the internet or social media, it is highly damaging to the accused reputation and may result in termination of employment.


That's more to do with fundamental disagreements over what constitutes "rape" than any legitimate methodological or statistical complaint. My point being that the USA putting all sexual crimes, from misemeanours like groping to felonies like rape, all under one umbrella term is highly detrimental to the statistic's value in this argument.



What privatized medicine? Rape kits are virtually never tested, as they are tested in-house and police see their priorities as (anywhere) else.
...he's not arguing about the rape kit's usefulness he's arguing the rape kit's price. Which was a consequence of having free market healthcare not this "rape culture"

Seriously do you even finish reading before you start replying?


Inebriation legally precludes consent. Alcohol is and has long been humanity's most powerful external tool for sellf replication. To automatically assume that intoxication percludes consent results in absurdity; if that was true at least 50% of all men and women in recorded history who have bred are rapists, including a good number of your ancestors.


Sexual history would be even less relevant here than a record of plagiarism.

If we take consent earlier in an encounter or in an earlier encounter to be meaningful, then we must ask of those who insist that this is so how it can be judged to affect the case in any principled way. If they have a history of agreeing to fuck every man/woman in sight it would add validity to an argument in court that the prosecution was doing the same with this one, only they regretted it later.


:on_hi:How do you figure that?
Common sense.

[Montmorency]

No it doesnt. It indicates that the Legal consequences of rape accusations are minimal.

So what indicates the opposite for the non-legal? That feminists take such things seriously? What a paradox you place yourself in.



If they dont hear a word of the matter. If they do, like say through the internet or social media, it is highly damaging to the accused reputation and may result in termination of employment.


Most employers overreact at any legal trouble on a low-level employee's part. This has nothing to do with your position.



My point being that the USA putting all sexual crimes, from misemeanours like groping to felonies like rape, all under one umbrella term is highly detrimental to the statistic's value in this argument.


It's not clear that you understand what the figure actually encompasses.



...he's not arguing about the rape kit's usefulness he's arguing the rape kit's price. Which was a consequence of having free market healthcare not this "rape culture"

Seriously do you even finish reading before you start replying?

The free market does not pay for rape kit tests as I plainly said.


Alcohol is and has long been humanity's most powerful external tool for sellf replication. To automatically assume that intoxication percludes consent results in absurdity; if that was true at least 50% of all men and women in recorded history who have bred are rapists, including a good number of your ancestors.

It is not a very ambiguous legal standard.


If they have a history of agreeing to fuck every man/woman in sight it would add validity to an argument in court that the prosecution was doing the same with this one, only they regretted it later.

And how do you figure that? Your common sense again?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

The UK is not a "Rape Society".

A man accused of Rape is tarnished for the rest of his life unless he can positively disprove it.

[Montmorency]

Again, what evidence is there beyond your personal ideal?

A businessman would never commit fraud as any of his subordinates or associates would report him immediately for such a vile distortion of free exchange and he would never be involved in enterprise again unless he could conclusively demonstrate to independent auditors that everything is above-board.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Again, what evidence is there beyond your personal ideal?

A businessman would never commit fraud as any of his subordinates or associates would report him immediately for such a vile distortion of free exchange and he would never be involved in enterprise again unless he could conclusively demonstrate to independent auditors that everything is above-board.

An orgy of evidence - such as the Oxford student who was accused but against whom the case was dropped.

He now lives under a cloud.

It's like saying we're a "Murder Society" because people kill other people.

Rape is not permissible in the UK under any circumstances even if it might have been 50 years ago.

[Kralizec]

+1 Internets for stating what should be obvious, but isn't.

A back of the envelope figure for you -

90 reported sexual assaults, lets assume groups of three women and make an allowance for unreported assaults, say 35 separate instances of gang attacks - reports of groups of 20-30 men , average 25.

So - 25*35=875.

That assumes the number of unreported offences is quite low and each group of men only attacked a single group of women. I would say the latter assumption was relatively sound, as I can't really see groups forming, assaulting girls and then moving on to assault more girls. That kind of mob action tends to be a one off thing rather than something you repeat throughout the night.

In any case, 1,000 suspects is clearly not an improbable estimate.

I disagree, I don’t think your assumption makes a lot of sense. I’ve been to Keulen (as Dutch people know it) and as I recall the area in question isn’t that big, not large enough to accommodate many thousands. Are we going to believe that most of the males present engaged in this behaviour, or that everyone on the square was an Arab or African for that matter?
“Indecent assault” is a vague term and probably some of those could have been adolescent boys cupping a feel for giggles, before resuming their normal drunken behaviour for the rest of the night. Like petty vandalism, it’s something that I can believe that most of the people present would be capable of.

For the more serious ones though I think it’s very likely that they were committed by less than a hundred people total spread in three or four groups (and I think it’s plausible that they were of certain ethnicities). A group rape, or an assault bordering on rape requires some serious peer pressure and I don’t see a group of 1.000 people who’ve randomly gathered collectively engaging in it. I’d wager that most of those people where regular drunken rabble (brown or not), of the kind you see in every city on new years night.

[Greyblades]

So what indicates the opposite for the non-legal?

This:


Most employers overreact at any legal trouble on a low-level employee's part. This has nothing to do with your position.

A rape accusation causes that overraction and bars the accused from later jobs, that's a social consequence that even you admit happen.


It's not clear that you understand what the figure actually encompasses.
Again, stealing the words from my mouth.

Considering we dont even have a source for his stats noone can. The Rape, Abuse & Incest National Network defines sexual assault as "unwanted sexual contact that stops short of rape or attempted rape (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_assault), counting it as it's own crime, so I'm not sure why its presented as proof of a rape culture.


The free market does not pay for rape kit tests as I plainly said.
So you agree with me.


It is not a very ambiguous legal standard. So I can have sex with a willing woman but if she has any amount of alcohol in her it's rape?

[Husar]

Well, I made the point a few months ago that these "migrants" demanding the right to settle in Germany has an excessive sense of entitlement and I think this is the same thing. I sounds to me like most of the sexual assaults in Cologne were gropings rather than rapes or sustained physical contact.

Obviously being groped is a horrible violation for a woman (or a man) and it shouldn't happen but I suspect these gangs of young men thought what they were doing was socially acceptable - given where they come from and how the German girls were dressed. Then you have to consider that these people have been told not to be afraid of the Police, because they're there to help, and I suspect that has translated into a lack of fear of punishment in their minds.

A lot of the early reports said the groping was mostly to distract from theft and not so much for the sake of the groping itself. Men had things stolen from them as well that night.
Another issue was that the idiots fired firecrackers and other fireworks into the bystanders, eachother and at the police.
So it was not quite a rape party but lots of youths causing a whole lot of trouble that noone was prepared for.
Sometimes I wonder if, in extreme cases, the police should be allowed to fire warning shots and potentially shoot at the perpetrators as well. Maybe with rubber bullets only, but this just can't be allowed to happen. The videos below seem to show the police not even try to disband them though. If they did and the perps try to attack the police, the use of force should be allowed, I'm not advocating a massacre by police here. :sweatdrop:


This is just the natural, and predictable, result of a large new immigrant community that has appeared in a country over night.

Some say most of them were later generation immigrants who had been here for a while and actually organized this large-scale thing.
So whether they all recently migrated here is not really sure, except if you are the kind who is always right.


As to what to do - to begin with anyone arrested who is a recent immigrant whose status has not yet been determined should be deported. Germany should not accept refugees from Syria who are going to do these sorts of things to women, the convention of refugees was not designed to protect men like that and they are not deserving of sanctuary.

I fully agree, if this does not have a destructive impact on an asylum application then our laws here are even more terrible than I already think.


In the medium term the refugee communities need to be broken up and spread out as much as possible. Obviously immediate families should be kept together but there should be a policy of dispersing these people around the country so that they are encouraged to integrate rather than form ghettoes.

Some families should have been deported decades ago when they began to build criminal empires, but apparently it is relatively easy to get around the law, there is a judge in a huge city who has been under police protection for many years now because he dared to sentence a "family member" to jail despite the death threats he already got before that. This sort of thing HAS to be broken up before the judicial system is completely undermined.
However, not a new problem, Germany is also a retirement and business location for Italian mafiosi because the laws here allow them to operate/live here with such ease. But at least we can jail all the people who copy a CD now -> progress.


Ah, so a bit more than groping, sexually aggravated muggings. These men were a bit more than just "gropey" in these touching too.

Yes.

Here they have a video of what was going on in general, the groping was certainly not the only bad thing going on.

http://www.focus.de/regional/videos/massive-ausschreitungen-video-zeigt-das-chaos-in-der-koelner-silvesternacht_id_5189367.html

and another one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oe_69mhjjmU

Also going by the beer bottles lying around, there cannot have been a lot of muslims among them...

[Fragony]

Developing, police of the 80 people the police checked, claim ALL were suppesedly the children of the childless mutti. All from Syria. Weird dentists, IT-experts and professors

welcome mi casa su casa

[Husar]

Developing, police of the 80 people the police checked, claim ALL were suppesedly the children of the childless mutti. All from Syria. Weird dentists, IT-experts and professors

welcome mi casa su casa

http://www.t-online.de/nachrichten/panorama/kriminalitaet/id_76568172/silvester-nacht-in-koeln-verdaechtige-wohl-aus-oertlicher-drogenszene.html

Developing, police say all the suspects identified so far are long-known criminals (i.e. not recent immigrants) who have been involved in drug-trafficking in huge criminal groups for the last two years. Police cannot do much against these groups because they only run around with amounts they can claim to be for personal use when caught and use a lot of tricks to hide the drugs etc.

Further indication that this was a concerted effort is that they changed their headwear to make video identification harder, a trick hooligans use as well when they expect to be videotaped.

[Fragony]

That's what the police-top says, but not what the boots (incognito) say. Police-top also said that it was a quiet night, 4 days later it turned out it hardly was, not going to believe either all too soon.

It wouldn't look very good for the childless mutti if what the boots say is true no?

edit, lt's in Die Welt, it's not all but most. Robbery and sexual-assault could be unrelated probably. http://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article150735341/Die-meisten-waren-frisch-eingereiste-Asylbewerber.html?wtrid=socialmedia.socialflow....socialflow_twitter

[Husar]

edit, lt's in Die Welt, it's not all but most.

Thank you, found it:
http://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article150735341/Die-meisten-waren-frisch-eingereiste-Asylbewerber.html

That makes three versions:
Police chief of Cologne: unknowns
Head of the german police union: long-known criminals
policemen on the street: new immigrants

The policemen further say that the "sexual amusement" was indeed the primary motivation of the perpetrators.
Whether that is good or bad for Merkel, I don't give a daisy, everyb ody who does not do this is still welcome as far as I'm concerned, if they already got copies of the sylum papers of the perpetrators, it should be easier to deny them and deport them though. Would send an interesting and new message to everybody else with crazy ideas. I understand not wanting to be a victim, but when you create other victims elsewhere, then I don't understand anymore.

[Fisherking]

It is still a controversy. Officers on the street reported a large number of refugees at the site during the time of the assaults.

Political tap-dancing on the issue is only going to make it worse and give more credence to the rightwing groups. Worse still a total loss of faith in media in one of the few countries where there is still a little left.

When politicians and police leadership tell people that cops on the street are lying or misinformed it has a very hollow right to it.

http://www.thelocal.de/20160107/police-report-shows-real-face-of-cologne-assaults

http://www.thelocal.de/20160108/cologne-police-face-fresh-cover-up-claims

http://www.thelocal.de/20160105/brushing-sexual-assault-under-the-carpet-is-foolish

[Fragony]

For now, of tbe 32 alledged assaulters 29 were 'refugees'. Official.

[Montmorency]

An orgy of evidence - such as the Oxford student who was accused but against whom the case was dropped.

He now lives under a cloud.

It's like saying we're a "Murder Society" because people kill other people.

Rape is not permissible in the UK under any circumstances even if it might have been 50 years ago.

I can't tell what specific case you are referring to, so I can't say that you aren't falling into the exact foolish fallacy I pointed out a number of posts ago.

The one point you have is that the tautological formulations of "rape culture" do suffer from bordering on your formulation of "murder culture".


A rape accusation causes that overraction and bars the accused from later jobs, that's a social consequence that even you admit happen.

Not a rape accusation, but a public circus over a public accusation, usually before any charges are filed or considered. So, no.


counting it as it's own crime, so I'm not sure why its presented as proof of a rape culture.

I am trying to be generous to you, but do you really not understand that in legal terms and in statistical terms "sexual assault" and "rape" are indeed two distinct crimes that are treated differently, but that both fall under the broader category of sexual crime?


So you agree with me.

Let me be more straightforward: municipalities pay for rape kits and their testing. Don't be obtuse.


So I can have sex with a willing woman but if she has any amount of alcohol in her it's rape?

No - the legal standard is that, like juveniles and animals, an intoxicated individual is incompetent to give consent. When intoxication results for a given individual under given circumstances, or the wider philosophical questions surrounding the nature of law in light of philosophy of mind, do not change that this is the given legal standard that we rule by.

[Fragony]

I wouldn't call it a public accusation but just more information slipping in. If that information is true I simply can't know but it looks pretty bad so far for those who bagatilise/relativate what seems to have happened.

[Myth]

Cultural enrichment in France:

https://www.facebook.com/FREI.statt.bunt/videos/711121288934347/

[Husar]

Cultural enrichment in France:

https://www.facebook.com/FREI.statt.bunt/videos/711121288934347/

Can you explain how this is cultural enrichment?

[Fragony]

I most certainly couldn't

[Beskar]

Here is an answer provided by reddit (https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/342knz/eli5_what_is_cultural_enrichment/).

Many times when someone is accused of being racist, they're accused of not having experience with the black community, and told that spending time there might be culturally enriching for them (as per actual definition).

These folks want to hold up the riots as evidence that supporters of the black community are the ones who don't understand it to try to turn that accusation around. In essence, they believe that they know more about the problems there than we do.
The reason that they're wrong is that they're judging day to day life by the standards of 5 minutes of cherry-picked violence that they falsely believe is representative of everyday life there.

Which is not unequivocal proof that there isn't a problem in black communities. There is. But solving those problems requires the 'cultural enrichment' and in depth knowledge that comes from getting to know the people who live there, and how and why those problems come about.

[Gilrandir]

Self-defense militia - the Cologne style?
http://www.focus.de/politik/deutschland/selbsternannte-strassenpolizei-polizei-warnt-vor-verhaengnisvollem-trend-buergerwehren-sind-gefaehrlich-fuer-deutschland_id_5196236.html

[Fisherking]

Here is an answer provided by reddit (https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/342knz/eli5_what_is_cultural_enrichment/).

I do hope you are not trying to defend the actions of those perhaps half civilised creatures just because of their race!

Denying that racism classes colour and cultural lines on perpetuates it and exacerbates it.

[Beskar]

I do hope you are not trying to defend the actions of those perhaps half civilised creatures just because of their race!

My post doesn't defend anything.

[Fisherking]

My post doesn't defend anything.

Good!

Can you tell us what logical fallacy is being used in that post from reddit? It's pretty subtile.

[Fisherking]

Somewhat objective analyses but several F bombs. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJCLSZm4-LA

[Montmorency]

Can you tell us what logical fallacy is being used in that post from reddit? It's pretty subtile.

What do you see?

[Greyblades]

Not a rape accusation, but a public circus over a public accusation, usually before any charges are filed or considered. So, no.

Except you dont even need a media circus. As you said "Most employers overreact at any legal trouble on a low-level employee's part", even if it doesnt end up in the paper; if an employer gets wind of a rape allegation that employee is prone to being jettisoned just to make sure future developments cant damage the company.


I am trying to be generous to you, but do you really not understand that in legal terms and in statistical terms "sexual assault" and "rape" are indeed two distinct crimes that are treated differently, but that both fall under the broader category of sexual crime?
Except when it doesnt: "In some places, such as New South Wales, the crime of sexual assault has replaced the traditional crime of rape, and is being defined as non-consensual penetrative sex" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_assault)
Some places also include Texas, a part of the USA, explaining my confusion over which definbition the FBI uses.

Not that any of this matters, if the FBI reports include rape the statistics Don Corleone used are too broad to be of use as I said earlier. If it doesnt include rape: it is fundamentally useless in determinining the existance of rape culture.


Let me be more straightforward: municipalities pay for rape kits and their testing. Don't be obtuse.
Go back and read the argument step by step; Don Corleone used the fact that rape kits needed to be bought until 2 years ago as proof of a rape culture, I challenged it by saying it's a problem of free market medicine, not rape culture.

Could you explain what your problem with that is? Four posts later I still have no goddamned idea, nor why you are still going on about it.


No - the legal standard is that, like juveniles and animals, an intoxicated individual is incompetent to give consent. When intoxication results for a given individual under given circumstances, or the wider philosophical questions surrounding the nature of law in light of philosophy of mind, do not change that this is the given legal standard that we rule by.
"No, it's not rape, except yes it is" Which is it?

[Greyblades]

Here is an answer provided by reddit (https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/342knz/eli5_what_is_cultural_enrichment/).


Many times when someone is accused of being racist, they're accused of not having experience with the black community, and told that spending time there might be culturally enriching for them (as per actual definition).
It's official, the word Racist had lost all meaning.

[Myth]

I'm a backwards thinking "shady balkans subject". Here's my thought:

- Are you educated and willing to be a productive member of society? Welcome to Europe.
- Are you uneducated but willing to put effort into improving yourself and becoming a productive member of society at some point? Welcome to Europe.
- Are you uneducated and unwilling to change and instead demand that we accept you as you are and by proxy we must also accept your tribal and base culture that thrives on physical violence? Or your backwards religion that imposes strict rules that affect our lifestyle? Or are you unwilling to be a productive member of society and prefer to live on benefits and loiter about? Then you are not welcome in Europe.

All that other sugar coating is simply not necessary.

[Greyblades]

Does everyone ignore this part of the article?


The pretty Christmas market and medieval setting may look idyllic, but at Christmas and New Year the area around Cologne Cathedral is a notorious danger zone when it comes to pickpockets and theft.

I missed this earlier but I gotta ask: Does the BBC really think a trend of domestic theft is comparable to an influx of molestation gangs, or make it any less shocking?

[Beskar]

Good!
Can you tell us what logical fallacy is being used in that post from reddit? It's pretty subtile.

What do you see?

I got to agree with Monty here as I am curious as to what you are seeing in the post. But since you asked first, I will say my opinion then answer your question.

If I am honest, I have only read "cultural enrichment" as tongue-in-cheek remark as depicted by Myth above, and used in posts from Fragony, and not used in any kind of serious discourse from a proponent who actually believes in it as a term. My understanding of the term is that is used ironically by people, usually referring to people who believe in cultural discourse in a derogative manner because they dislike the other culture entirely on an almost xenophobia level for many reasons which range from legitimate concerns to misconstrued facts.

Just for definition purposes, I view cultural discourse as being where cultures interact with each other, and generally benign aspects of them are incorporated into another culture, ranging from things such a curry houses, pyjamas, blue jeans, and jazz music, or the introduction of political concepts such as freedom/liberty/democracy, welfare state, and unfortunately sometimes negative concepts (such as fascism) can enter a culture consciousness as well. Either way, a culture may adapt and change due to the discourse, but they are not dominated (that is something else).

But back more on topic, I was interested in other opinions and this was linked to a basic google search by myself on the subject where I found a proponent who ended up explaining the meaning, including the tongue-in-cheek version as well.

From what I gather from the reddit post directly, I will break it down as followed:

Even in a world filled with many cultures, not everyone has experience with them. Due to reasons, this could involve someone making a statement which is unfortunately comes across as either: ignorant or very uninformed. Proponents of the terms suggest that such people should "culturally enrich" themselves so they are better informed.
- I agree, the term 'cultural enrichment' sounds horrible, which is probably part of why I thought it was only ironically used, however, the sentiment behind it is that people who are ignorant/uninformed should go out of their way to have a better understanding of it. I think it is fair to say, this not a bad principle.

With the second paragraph, it is saying that there are those who disagree with proponents use the term tongue-in-cheek to say they are better informed than those who suggest otherwise, suggesting they should 'culturally enrich' themselves with the negatives.
- There are some legitimate concerns being raised. If you are homosexual for example, I don't think by 'cultural enriching' yourself openly in a hostile environment such as Russia or Iran for example would be a good idea.
- However, again, there are people who are ignorant of others, who make statements which are simply not true and just plain offensive to innocent people. There are many people I know for example who are Muslim and they are very tolerant of other people, they work hard, they pay their taxes, they don't stigmatise others, and they don't want to implement sharia law or impose their faith on others. Should these people get through into a grouping which doesn't reflect them or their values in the slightest? This is not rejecting the fact there are those of extreme opinions, just like there are non-muslims of extreme opinions, but it is worrying when people use these extreme examples such as being the 'norm' for people who are assigned an abstract social category they have no say in.

As for the second part of the second paragraph, this goes more indepth explaining there are time that people use extreme examples, or '5 minute clip of a violent incident' to start attributing labels to people who are not even linked with the incident as being their typical behaviour.
- I think Myth's post is a perfect example of this. He linked a video of a group of black teens harassing a woman with antisocial behaviour, then he clearly says "Cultural enrichment in France". What is really being said here? What is being heavily implied is that "Black people/Immigrants/Label-Here (whole) are antisocial". (I will go for first for sake of brevity)
- Finding an issue with this statement "Black People (whole) are antisocial" does not condone the behaviour of those individuals involved in this incident, or defending the individuals of the people involved in the clip (as you very eagerly suggested FisherKing, you jumped fast into making that a point). The behaviour in the clip is not warranted or acceptable, and if you look in the Backroom video topic, I recently made a post which explicitly stated that being from another culture/label does not make certain behaviour acceptable.
- What 'finding an issue with the statement' really means is finding an issue in that statement, the main issue being a very gross misrepresentation of black people as a whole being made on the basis of a minute clip. The clip does not represent day-to-day life, it does not represent the views of a people or their culture. It is an extreme.

The 3rd paragraph then goes into what I mentioned earlier, yes, there are problems in different cultures, yes, there are incidents and challenges that people face, but these are not the majority. Then it expands that people should get to know the issues involved in the relative societies.
- It could be as someone commented earlier, that in another country they don't see women in such revealing clothes and they don't understand the social norms of a different culture so they act inappropriately towards them, and as such, that Norwegian article explains how education helped people understand the differences so they know how to act and in what way.
- Above example is identifying the problem, and it gives a solution to the problem which addresses it.
- Saying that they should be shot out of the water and their villages bombed to the ground does not address the issue or is a solution to the problem.


Now, to the fallacies part... there isn't much of one by any measure, but you even say as such with statement "subtle", which makes me curious to what you think it is, and why you jumped very eagerly to suggest I was making a point which i wasn't approaching.
Only ones which come close as a streeeeetch from guessing what you may be looking for are the following: Strawman, Black-or-White, Composition/Division, Anecdotal, Personal Incredulity.

[Montmorency]

if an employer gets wind of a rape allegation that employee is prone to being jettisoned just to make sure future developments cant damage the company.

And how does the employer get wind?


Could you explain what your problem with that is? Four posts later I still have no goddamned idea, nor why you are still going on about it.

My point is that police crime labs test rape kits, although if they're out of money they try to find ways to bill insurance providers, not test the kit, or just not collect materials for a kit at all. A rape kit itself is just some bags, sleeves, folders, cotton swabs, documents, and glass slides. There is no meaningful "free-market" component.


Not that any of this matters, if the FBI reports include rape the statistics Don Corleone used are too broad to be of use as I said earlier. If it doesnt include rape: it is fundamentally useless in determinining the existance of rape culture.

Rape is a subset of sexual assault. Figures given regarding rape are distinct from figures given regarding sexual assault. Here (https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/clearances) is an FBI link indicating that 74K rapes were "cleared", with a 40% clearance rate for reports, giving fewer than 200K reports for that year. "Clearance" is, crudely speaking, when a police department calls it 'case closed', whether or not an arrest is involved. This is to say nothing of charges filed, court sessions held (i.e. prosecutions), and finally, convictions or sentences laid down. What is absolutely clear is that the number of defendants contesting (usually among other) charges of rape is always in the low tens-of-thousands.

The real problems in assessing the issue come at many levels:


Individual states have their own definitions of rape. Individual police departments have their own individual policies on how to handle reports and proceedings, which they may or may not follow depending on discretion.
A couple of years ago, the federal government began to collect rape data where cases involved anal or vaginal penetration, or oral penetration with a sexual organ; the old standard was 'unwanted carnal relations with a woman'.
The federal government always included cases of attempted and "incomplete" rape in rape figures.
In other words, even the number of allegations of rapes within the legal system is incalculable at any level, regardless of what definitions one uses.
Statutory rape is not usually included in rape statistics. It is often treated under sexual assault statutes, or as a lower degree of rape if rape is divided into degrees for a given state. Typically, fewer than a thousand individuals are convicted on a statutory rape charge in any given year.
What is "consent"?


Here is an article (http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2014-09-19/how-many-rape-reports-are-false) touching on why all attempts to provide an estimate for "false reports" have been meaningless.

In essence, rape appears with striking rarity in the justice system, largely due to the complete inability to agree on epistemological or legal or procedural standards, due to the deeper philosophical questions around consent and the nature of law.


No, it's not rape, except yes it is" Which is it?

Ask the legal philosophers. Any answer is bound to have profound consequences for the wider role of consent in law, so be careful.

To make this simpler for you, here is the general direction of feminist agendas:

1. Libertarian emphasis on "consent" and "autonomy".
2. More stringent definition rape.
3. Conformity toward reevaluated conceptions of consent and rape as well as institutional support such that reporting is encouraged.
3. Cultural change away from beliefs and attitudes that lead individuals to fall afoul of the above.

Please try to understand on what grounds you contest feminist narratives. The idea that the narratives should be contested because accusations of rape are especially likely to be damaging, or spurious, or open to public discovery, is what we call an utter moron horseshit lie.

[Greyblades]

And how does the employer get wind? Does it matter? Whether through the machinations of a vindictive accusor, the digging of a sensationalist press or the failure in legal confidentiality the very knowledge that one is accused of rape is enough to lose a person thier job in western society.

That those accused will be ostracised or punished by most who hears of it, regardless of evidence presented, puts a great hole in the idea that our society is one "trivializes, rationalizes, or even condones rape and other acts of sexual violence" (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Rape_culture) which is the core of the idea that is rape culture.


My point is that police crime labs test rape kits, although if they're out of money they try to find ways to bill insurance providers, not test the kit, or just not collect materials for a kit at all. A rape kit itself is just some bags, sleeves, folders, cotton swabs, documents, and glass slides. There is no meaningful "free-market" component.
Don said:

Until a federal spending bill 2 years criminalized the practice, hospitals used to bill the victim for their rape kits in most jurisdictions.
No mention of crime labs or the composition of the kit, only that the hospitals charge victims for thier use.

I asked if this was really proof of a rape culture or an example of privatised medicine, aka that the hospitals charged out of a desire to make money, not to hurt rape victims.

Is there a problem with his very premise of hospitals charging for rape kits? Did it never happen at all? Take it up with him. I'm pointing out that even taking it as fact it does not clearlt indicate rape culture as he presents it. Your responses have been so irrelevant to that as to nearly constitute non sequitur.


Rape is a subset of sexual assault. Figures given regarding rape are distinct from figures given regarding sexual assault[...]

[...]In essence, rape appears with striking rarity in the justice system, largely due to the complete inability to agree on epistemological or legal or procedural standards, due to the deeper philosophical questions around consent and the nature of law.
Way to waste 5 paragraphs worth of space by addressing none of my issues with Don's figures.

Or have I misread and you agree with me and just suck at expressing approval?


Ask the legal philosophers. Any answer is bound to have profound consequences for the wider role of consent in law, so be careful.

To make this simpler for you, here is the general direction of feminist agendas:

1. Libertarian emphasis on "consent" and "autonomy".
2. More stringent definition rape.
3. Conformity toward reevaluated conceptions of consent and rape as well as institutional support such that reporting is encouraged.
3. Cultural change away from beliefs and attitudes that lead individuals to fall afoul of the above.

Please try to understand on what grounds you contest feminist narratives. The idea that the narratives should be contested because accusations of rape are especially likely to be damaging, or spurious, or open to public discovery, is what we call an utter moron horseshit lie.
https://i.imgur.com/L9yfQ3R.png

I take back "nearly" in nearly a complete non sequitur. I have no goddamn idea how any of that relates to my post.

Do you even read what I say any more?

[Fragony]

Doesn't matter what consitutes to rape, what matters is that the little children of the childless mutti don't give a crap about their host countries values

They weren't just touched but also robbed, just saying. Apoligists say that they are just confused because women and men are in seperate worlds where they come from (which is nonsense), but surely they must know that they cannot rob.

[Montmorency]

Does it matter? Whether through the machinations of a vindictive accusor, the digging of a sensationalist press or the failure in legal confidentiality the very knowledge that one is accused of rape is enough to lose a person thier job in western society.

So? Aside from the fact that such cases are vanishingly rare outside the university or celebrity world, what's the difference from me marching into your workplace and loudly accusing you of assaulting me and stealing my bike? If you're of very little value to your employer, you might be let off with few questions or followup. Rise a little higher up the ladder, and I would be ignored or even banned from the premises. You make too much of a trivial hypothetical.


That those accused will be ostracised or punished by most who hears of it, regardless of evidence presented, puts a great hole in the idea that our society is one "trivializes, rationalizes, or even condones rape and other acts of sexual violence" (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Rape_culture) which is the core of the idea that is rape culture.

Not true at all; in very public cases, the accused routinely receive an extraordinary outpouring of public support. Friends, family, and industry colleagues (if the accused is a member of some profession or civil service) lock arms in their defense. You seem to have this strange paradox underlying your reasoning, that the fact feminists make an issue of rape means that society takes rape very seriously or even overreacts to it, which means that feminists have no cause to make an issue of rape. In other words, you use feminism to minimize or rule out the existence of the things feminism opposes.


I take back "nearly" in nearly a complete non sequitur. I have no goddamn idea how any of that relates to my post.

I'm afraid I can't help you then. Come back to it later if you like.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Monty, you realise Greyblades is in the UK and not the US, right?

In the UK, as in Germany, rape is probably a more socially unacceptable crime to commit or be accused of than some forms of murder. Our society will actually forgive some murderers, or at least sympathise with them. Rapists get nothing.

[Greyblades]

There is nothing probable about it. In modern Britain murder can be excused in times of war sympathyised with when done through strife, and even glorified if the killing happened for good enough reason.

There is no time or reason good enough for a full on rape to ever be excused. I cant imagine why it would be any different in the USA


So? Aside from the fact that such cases are vanishingly rare outside the university or celebrity world, what's the difference from me marching into your workplace and loudly accusing you of assaulting me and stealing my bike? If you're of very little value to your employer, you might be let off with few questions or followup. Rise a little higher up the ladder, and I would be ignored or even banned from the premises. You make too much of a trivial hypothetical. A hypothetical with a series of high profile precidents. To normal people this is called a valid trend.

Also I wonder what world you live in where petty theft holds the same social stigma and provokes the same response as a rape accusation. An accusation for a crime such as that is akin to a social suicide attack; two enter but it only ends once one is reduced to a social pariah and noone escapes completely unscathed in the eyes of witnessess.

I have to ask; why do you think there is anyone valuable enough to a company to afford becoming known as the guys who protected a rapist


Not true at all; in very public cases, the accused routinely receive an extraordinary outpouring of public support. Friends, family, and industry colleagues (if the accused is a member of some profession or civil service) lock arms in their defense.You pay too much heed to appearances.

An accusation from outside will always result in the family locking arms but there is allways an impact on the accused. Onlookers cannot see it but the doubt is always present in the minds of all but the closest of relations. Every friend and family member on the lookout that the trust they hold in that person is not being betrayed and even the hint of those fears being vailid will be seized upon in thier heads and the relationships are never left unaffected.

When the accusation comes from inside the family or circle of friends things get a lot less composed.

Take it from one who has witnessed two cases first hand; Such lingering doubts, left unresolved, will hang over everyone involved for decades. Even after the death of the accused it does not dissapear and I can assure you it is an unplesant state for a family to be in.


You seem to have this strange paradox underlying your reasoning, that the fact feminists make an issue of rape means that society takes rape very seriously or even overreacts to it, which means that feminists have no cause to make an issue of rape. In other words, you use feminism to minimize or rule out the existence of the things feminism opposes. You are the only one in this thread who has mentioned feminism.


I'm afraid I can't help you then. Come back to it later if you like. A poor teacher is one who cannot make himself understood. You are a very poor teacher.

[Sarmatian]

Doesn't matter what consitutes to rape, what matters is that the little children of the childless mutti don't give a crap about their host countries values

They weren't just touched but also robbed, just saying. Apoligists say that they are just confused because women and men are in seperate worlds where they come from (which is nonsense), but surely they must know that they cannot rob.

And how do you explain that the police report says that those involved were intoxicated and high on drugs? That's forbidden in their culture? Did they already accept western cultural values? So quickly? You should rejoice if that's true.

[Fisherking]

Beskar I was a little surprise buy you in-depth analysis, which I will read as soon as I have a spare moment. (wife in hospital) so no irony intended.
I don’t disagree with the underlying message the poster intended. Only in how it was done.

I first noticed the “no true Scotsman” but there is also a bit of a “special appeal” and “genetic” in the way it was expressed.

[Fragony]

And how do you explain that the police report says that those involved were intoxicated and high on drugs? That's forbidden in their culture? Did they already accept western cultural values? So quickly? You should rejoice if that's true.

What can I say I don' know. I am not the only one who just doesn't know. I am no expert in these things but I don'tt expect others to be experts either, more like library-worldtravelers. But I would like to keep the argument that robbery is not ok. They couldn't have not known that it's not ok. Why talk about the sexual dimension in the debate if they certainly were doing something they knew was wrong? Mi casa su casa, not. Looks more like planting a flag to me. Without saying thats's the case.

mi casa su casa, going to shelter a Syrian gay/christian/woman in the room below me. Not classy but safe.

only them, no muslim no matter how nice.

[Gilrandir]

And how do you explain that the police report says that those involved were intoxicated and high on drugs? That's forbidden in their culture? Did they already accept western cultural values? So quickly? You should rejoice if that's true.

There is high probabiltity that they hadn't followed the code back there where they belong.

My mother's colleague moved to Israel 20 odd years ago. Her husband (both are Jewish) was much upset by the fact that he couldn't find any pork there. At first. When they found their way about the place they found out that it was called something like "white meat" and could be bought at certain places. So much for religious tenets: you follow them when it suits you, and when it doesn't - you evade them.

[Beskar]

In the UK, as in Germany, rape is probably a more socially unacceptable crime to commit or be accused of than some forms of murder. Our society will actually forgive some murderers, or at least sympathise with them. Rapists get nothing.

PVC is correct here. People who go to prison on rape-charges lie and say they are in for murder, not to be 'harder', but because there is a very strong taboo against it. The way it has been explained to me in the past is that people are in prison for crimes against society, they either crimes of passion, or crimes against property, or gang related. These prisoners are still people and all have families back at home, so when a rapist or child molester comes, it isn't just some guy who stole a TV, or killed someone they had a grudge with, but these are people who preys on their sisters and mothers, or who would prey on their children, nephews and nieces. So to these prisoners, the rapists and molesters are viewed as the ultimate scum of society.

[Beskar]

I don’t disagree with the underlying message the poster intended. Only in how it was done.
I first noticed the “no true Scotsman” but there is also a bit of a “special appeal” and “genetic” in the way it was expressed.

I don't really see the "no true Scotsman" myself, but that might be because I am reading into it differently than you. Nothing stands out to me as being 'no true Scotsman' unless you are meaning the argument but then they go out of their way to say there are problems in other cultures, so it wouldn't be one...
I agree it puts together two opposing viewpoints loosely, which I will concede author bias, which at a stretch would be a loose Strawman of the opposing opinion. I am curious as to what you read into it (doesn't have to be as tl;dr as mine).

(I hope your wife is gets well soon)

[Myth]

Hey, I'm not saying that all Africans or Muslims are bad. I'm saying that we have enough degenerates in our own countries to import more exotic flavours of degenerate from generally underdeveloped and backwards thinking countries.

Does not the UK have football hooligans and chavs? Yes they do. Do they need more of that type coming from Africa and the Middle East? No. What I want is strict control on who is allowed to come to Europe and stay here, instead of liberal morons standing with "refugees welcome" signs or making videos like the "mix it up" video that Swedish girl made.

If generalizations are bad then going on an "accepting all" spree is just as bad. Muslims demanding shariah law and the banning of pork in school cafeteria should just pack up and leave, they should not try to change the way the citizens of their host country live. African men who think rape is just a leisurely way to pass the time should be loaded on boats and sent back to the mud hut they crawled out of.

Are there doctors, dentists, engineers and kindergarten teachers amongst the refugees, migrants and other assorted rabble that tagged along from Africa, Afghanistan, Lybia and so on? Yes. Let them come. But degenerates need not apply, we have our local brand, thank you very much.

[Fragony]

There aren't any usefull people among the regugees, the usefull oned can go to an embassy and ask for asylum there, and take the plane from Damascus. Not that there aren't any real refugees, but most are welfare-tourists who don't want to ask asylum in the first safe coutry. Who behave badly on tops.

[Husar]

https://krautreporter.de/1242--was-fluchtlinge-uber-koln-denken

Someone asked some actual refugees what they think about the incident, I'm sure you can be creative to read it if you want to.

I also agree that it would be much better if criminals had the word "criminal" in easily-readable letters on their forehead, maybe we can soon make that happen through genetic modification.

[Fragony]

https://krautreporter.de/1242--was-fluchtlinge-uber-koln-denken

Someone asked some actual refugees what they think about the incident, I'm sure you can be creative to read it if you want to.

I also agree that it would be much better if criminals had the word "criminal" in easily-readable letters on their forehead, maybe we can soon make that happen through genetic modification.

Obviously of good will. But they also highlight the problem, a completily different way of looking at women.

[Sarmatian]

Hey, I'm not saying that all Africans or Muslims are bad. I'm saying that we have enough degenerates in our own countries to import more exotic flavours of degenerate from generally underdeveloped and backwards thinking countries.


Keep in mind that those exact things were cited when Bulgaria was entering EU.


Obviously of good will. But they also highlight the problem, a completily different way of looking at women.

Besided social media hysteria and "unnamed sources from the police" there is nothing that says it was done by refugees, or even Muslims.

[Montmorency]

A poor teacher is one who cannot make himself understood. You are a very poor teacher.

There are no great teachers, but there are great students. :bow:

[Beskar]

Keep in mind that those exact things were cited when Bulgaria was entering EU.

Actually, that is true, I remember it. You would think all Bulgarians and Romanians were itching to flood the British Isles and steal everything not bolted down to the floor from all the opinion pieces on the subject. :laugh4:

[Montmorency]

Actually, that is true, I remember it. You would think all Bulgarians and Romanians were itching to flood the British Isles and steal everything not bolted down to the floor from all the opinion pieces on the subject. :laugh4:


At the foreign office they had told me the English and French artillery worked much better than the Bulgarian, but Jimmie had been out there nine days and nights, in Balkan mountain wind and tropical clothing, and at the end the Bulgars had come “with the knife.” I do not imagine you can remember much difference between shrapnel and bayonets sometimes. Moreover, it is true that the effect of only the enemy’s shrapnel was apparent to Jimmie; but it is equally true that the Bulgarians are so inordinately proud of their prowess with the “knife” that they gladly belittle any other excellence of the army merely to enhance the glory of their bayonets. “Ein dummer Pat!” Herbst of the Intelligence Office said impatiently, when I repeated to him what Jimmie had said of the Bulgarian artillery.

Oh yeah, just the sort of people the UK needs more of. (https://newrepublic.com/article/119933/interview-wounded-world-war-i-soldier-bulgaria) :tongue:

[Fragony]

Besided social media hysteria and "unnamed sources from the police" there is nothing that says it was done by refugees, or even Muslims.

True, but it certainly looks like it. For now it's what is said for me

[Greyblades]

There are no great teachers, but there are great students. :bow:

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/611/121/569.jpg

[InsaneApache]

Something to ponder on...

Europe is going through a period of radical change, but it is facing this with a process of radical self-distraction. Unwilling to face up to our problems we obsess over the responses to those problems. There have been some startling recent examples.

As the whole world now knows, on New Year’s Eve in Cologne, dozens of German women were sexually assaulted, apparently by some of that country’s more recent arrivals. For days the media across Europe declined to even report the story. It was only because of new media that the story began to get out at all. Then when the media did get around to reporting the story they covered it in that now-familiar way which suggests their job is not so much to report the facts as to negotiate between the facts and their fear over how the general public might react to those facts. Perhaps we should be grateful that there is any coverage a week after the attacks. After all, it took more than a decade for 1500 rapes in the north of England to make much news.

Yesterday the Guardian (where any male doing anything is usually a demonstration of ‘rape culture’) finally ran a piece suggesting that perhaps we shouldn’t cover up actual, real rape-culture such as that in Cologne, conceding that it hadn’t helped much with Rotherham. The piece was predictably hailed as brave and controversial because today it has indeed become brave and controversial to report the facts. Thinking aloud about any of the repercussions of those facts, however, remains the pursuit only of a madman.

This is a shame, because some free thought and discussion about what is going on could have been useful at an earlier stage. Last year, when Angela Merkel flung open Germany’s borders anyone who said, ‘Are you sure you know what you’re doing?’ was shouted down with cries of ‘racist’. Then, after about a million more people had come into the country even Chancellor Merkel started to wonder who they all were and whether they had all the right Germanic ideas. One minister finally said that they weren’t keen on letting many more anti-Semites into Germany. And now in the wake of the New Year’s Eve attack some politicians are saying they don’t really want people who aren’t even up to speed with even last millennia’s views on women. Perhaps it is too late and German women will indeed have to follow the advice of the Mayor of Cologne and take more care when out on the streets (‘No skirts. No trousers. Have you considered this lovely burka madam?’) Or perhaps an intensive period of workshops with new arrivals will settle it all amicably and swiftly. I suppose we will just have to hope so. In the meantime it turns out that the German police have been caught mis-representing the facts about who was doing the New Year’s Eve raping., and so we are now in the far more dangerous place where lies become the preserve not only of the fourth estate, but of the state itself.

Over Christmas I read a new book by Tommy Robinson called ‘Enemy of the State’. This memoir by the founder and former leader of the English Defence League bears out what I wrote about Robinson a couple of years back when I interviewed him for the Spectator after he had left the EDL. In particular it seems clear from Tommy Robinson’s full account of his story that if the British police and others in authority had got a grip on Al-Muhajiroun and other Islamic extremists earlier on then nobody would ever have heard of the EDL or Tommy Robinson. The EDL always were a secondary problem – a reaction to a problem. But instead of dealing with the problem they were objecting to (Islamic fundamentalists having free reign to abuse British soldiers, just for starters) the full might of the state devoted itself to shutting down Tommy Robinson and the EDL: which is like trying to treat a disease-racked body by addressing a skin irritation.

As his memoir makes clear, from the moment that Robinson and the EDL emerged the entire force of the state came down upon their heads. Robinson’s home and the homes of his relatives were repeatedly raided by police. All their private papers and records were gone over repeatedly and eventually Robinson was charged and sent to prison in a mortgage fraud case. It is very clear to me – as I think it would be to anyone else considering his case – that although Robinson was obviously wrong to do what he did in the mortgage case it would never have come up, would never have been charged and would certainly never have gone to prison if he had not set up the EDL.

Now I didn’t agree with the EDL and do not like what they did. But the fact that the police and other authorities could get their leader into prison in such a manner showed a wildly skewed set of priorities. How many dodgy Muslim clerics and welfare-jihadists in the UK have got dodgy financial stuff in their background somewhere? Why can’t they be repeatedly sent in and out of prison on a whole range of trumped-up charges? Why did the police and Crown Prosecution Service not spend years crawling over every piece of paper kept by everyone around Al-Muhajiroun and the like? What seems clear from Robinson’s account of his life over recent years is that the authorities have used every power at their disposal not simply to stop his political activities but to shut him up. The impetus to do the same with the people he is objecting to meanwhile has simply been absent.

And now recent days have seen another example. In his book Robinson recounts an occasion while he was in prison where he was put in alongside a large number of Muslim extremists (including on one occasion a cell who were in prison for trying to kill him and others in the EDL). On pages 305-7 he describes one incident where he says that a Somali Muslim in prison had been persuaded by a Muslim gang leader to attack him. There was a fight. This was during one of Robinson’s last spells in prison. The authorities appear to have assured Robinson and his lawyers that no charges would be pending from this incident, which took place in 2014.

Then last week Robinson announced that he was founding Pegida UK (an offshoot of the German anti-Islamist movement) alongside former Labour candidate Anne-Marie Waters and Paul Weston. Two days later he was arrested on charges relating to the 2014 prison incident. I do not know all the facts here and I am sure there is much still to come out. But it would appear that the British police and others are working very hard to ensure that Robinson is not allowed to express his views on Islam and immigration and that they have pulled out this historical case in order to stop him from doing so. I hope that other journalists who care about the rule of law and free expression also look at this case, because it is extremely worrying. But I mention that case because it is a reminder that instinctive reaction to the Cologne case is symptomatic of a much wider problem. With Pegida protests in German today being fired on by police with water-cannons that problem of attacking the reaction rather than the problem (where were the water cannons on New Year’s Eve?) has rarely seemed starker.

But this is not only a police problem or a government problem: it is also a societal problem. This week saw the first anniversary of the Charlie Hebdo shootings, and one year after the day itself a man was shot dead while trying to storm a police station in Paris. Bad news stories like this from across the continent come in thick-and-fast these days. But what are people to do? Well one option would be to deal with the problem. Another is to partake in the sort of distraction offered by the folks of Twitter. In the wake of the latest Paris death they decided to amuse themselves by pretending that Donald Trump is so dumb that he thinks Paris is in Germany. Immediately after the latest Paris attack Trump sent out a tweet saying: ‘Man shot inside Paris police station. Just announced that terror threat is at highest level. Germany is a total mess – big crime. GET SMART!’

This was clearly referring to two separate problems. But the hashtag ‘#Paris Is In Germany’ trended all day. How hilarious! We don’t have to worry about all the troubles our continent because we have an American politician to laugh at.

Later this month the House of Commons will discuss the urgent issue of Mr Trump. This is because last month Trump said that he wanted to stop Muslim immigration into the US and added that Britain and Europe have a serious Muslim extremism problem. Because of this more than half a million people signed a petition calling for Trump to be barred from Britain. This now has to be debated in Parliament and doubtless all those MPs who rarely do much about problems they could deal with will grandstand their opposition to a foreign politician who doesn’t care what they think. In the last week we have been reminded that the British government not only doesn’t know who is coming into our country, but doesn’t even know who is leaving either. Still, it’s all fine so long as we divert ourselves by talking Trump. Perhaps this will be the European habit for some time to come. Perhaps it will finally do for us.

Millions of people whose identities and beliefs are unknown have been let into our continent. Many who have been here for a few years continue to present challenges which are by no means minimal. There seems to be a belief that so long as we have got Katie Hopkins, Donald Trump or Tommy Robinson to kick around then we can focus our energies on ignoring the problem.

Of course all one can do is warn. But it seems to me that, if we keep distracting ourselves from the problem and beating up on every response to it, then this continent of ours is going to go very bad, very fast.

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/01/a-crisis-in-our-continent-yet-parliament-is-debating-donald-trump/

I mentioned in a post I made in the video thread that I now have misgivings about how Robinson has been portrayed and treated. Whatever you do, don't tell the truth or you'll end up eating porridge.

[Noncommunist]

If you guys prevent Trump from being elected, there might be a greater chance that the Muslims in Britain will move to America. Conversely, if he does get elected, American Muslims may have a far greater incentive to move to Britain.

[Fragony]

1000 incidents reported by now in Germany, Sweden had some trouble as well, so did Switzerland. Will the childless mutti see a pattern or is it NEIN NEIN NEIN NEIN



No childless Mutti, this is the reality'

No, it can't be true, it isn't possible

In your heart you know it to be true'

NEEEEEEEEEEEEIN

[Sarmatian]

Which 1000 incidents? Where? When? Why? Who? How?

Oh, look, it's evening and the sun is coming down. Kill the Muslims, it's their fault!!!!!!!!

[Beskar]

Must be awful to live in a mental world which is static and never changing, compared to a world that is constantly in motion outside the window. Feeling yourself being lost in the currents and out of touch with things around you.

[InsaneApache]

Must be awful to live in a mental world which is static and never changing, compared to a world that is constantly in motion outside the window. Feeling yourself being lost in the currents and out of touch with things around you.

Like a moslem?

[rory_20_uk]

Like a moslem?

Like some Muslims. And some Jews, Christians, Hindus etc.

The main problem is that there are more of the Muslims causing damage in Europe whereas the extreme Jews restrict themselves mainly to killing palestinians, Hindus killing Muslims in the Far East and the Christians abortion doctors.

~:smoking:

[Fragony]

Which 1000 incidents? Where? When? Why? Who? How?

Oh, look, it's evening and the sun is coming down. Kill the Muslims, it's their fault!!!!!!!!

Completily normal reactions wiith exclamations marks, thanks

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Like some Muslims. And some Jews, Christians, Hindus etc.

The main problem is that there are more of the Muslims causing damage in Europe whereas the extreme Jews restrict themselves mainly to killing palestinians, Hindus killing Muslims in the Far East and the Christians abortion doctors.

~:smoking:

Thing is the Muslims who cuase the problems are too often those raised in Europe - in a relatively stable and secure environment. "Poverty" in Britain doesn't mean the same as "Poverty" in India.

It's a simple fact that none of the traditional radicalising pressures are present in the UK, which is to say excess male population, abject poverty, political repression etc. Even so it seems to be relatively easy to take Muslims, or even non Muslims, and turn them into radical Jihadists.

By contrast it is relatively unknown for radical Christians to set bombs or commit murder. Admittedly, there are a few cranks but they are a minuscule minority compared to the number leaving Europe and the US to join the Islamic State.

[Viking]

I also agree that it would be much better if criminals had the word "criminal" in easily-readable letters on their forehead, maybe we can soon make that happen through genetic modification.

Comparing the frequency of criminal acts between different demographics or focusing on the individual perpetrators can be very insightful, but also very misleading if not supplemented with other perspectives and facts.

A lot of the extreme antisocial behaviour that has been perpetrated by first or second generation immigrants is often surplus.

That is to say that with the attacks e.g. now most recently in Paris, we cannot realistically assume that some ethnic French people saw the attacks and said "damn, we cannot go on our killing spree now after all this happened", such that we get 130 - 130 = 0 extra deaths relative to a zero-immigration scenario. Nor do we have much of a reason to assume that if no Muslim had ever migrated to France, native French would have come up with a reason to massacre 130 people that they can not come up with now (note how frequent school shootings are in the US despite the significant amount of interethnic violence present in the country).

We cannot realistically assume, either, that 130 people would have died instead in other events in France if the Paris attacks had not happened. Those 130 deaths are very likely an unwelcome bonus.

Rather, we tend to get a double whammy where we also have natives attacking immigrants or people who support massive immigration; so we do not only have to worry about excess violence from radical immigrants, but also from radical natives.

As for the attacks in Köln, these kind of public incidents are extremely rare in the West nowadays, AFAIK; certainly so given the scale. So as far as public sexual assaults go, there is much reason to believe that these attacks are in excess as well.

IIRC, most sexual assaults do not happen in public; but the recent perpetrators in Köln may well be repeat offenders who also commit similar crimes more privately (or, equivalently, they only carried out the attacks because the women were outgroup); such that in sum we may still end up with a surplus of antisocial behaviour here thanks to immigration.

[Pannonian]

Thing is the Muslims who cuase the problems are too often those raised in Europe - in a relatively stable and secure environment. "Poverty" in Britain doesn't mean the same as "Poverty" in India.

It's a simple fact that none of the traditional radicalising pressures are present in the UK, which is to say excess male population, abject poverty, political repression etc. Even so it seems to be relatively easy to take Muslims, or even non Muslims, and turn them into radical Jihadists.

By contrast it is relatively unknown for radical Christians to set bombs or commit murder. Admittedly, there are a few cranks but they are a minuscule minority compared to the number leaving Europe and the US to join the Islamic State.

The firsters are mostly happy to live here and adapt their lives to the established culture. It's the seconds who cause trouble, looking for a more radical version of the culture that their parents were happy to leave behind.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

PVC is correct here. People who go to prison on rape-charges lie and say they are in for murder, not to be 'harder', but because there is a very strong taboo against it. The way it has been explained to me in the past is that people are in prison for crimes against society, they either crimes of passion, or crimes against property, or gang related. These prisoners are still people and all have families back at home, so when a rapist or child molester comes, it isn't just some guy who stole a TV, or killed someone they had a grudge with, but these are people who preys on their sisters and mothers, or who would prey on their children, nephews and nieces. So to these prisoners, the rapists and molesters are viewed as the ultimate scum of society.

An addendum to this - we spend millions every years protecting rapists and child molesters inside prison.

The reason?

Well - simply put, if the other prisoners look down on you for killing your wife a good way to mitigate some of that is to "execute" a "nonce".

The irony being that whilst many in the UK would probably call this Karma (not publicly, of course) we can't allow these monsters to be killed in prison because that's not the sentence handed down and letting it happen would make a mockery of justice.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

A couple of articles from the Independent:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/cologne-sexual-assaults-british-girl-describes-seeing-screaming-women-being-attacked-on-new-years-a6800666.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/cologne-sex-assaults-number-of-cases-in-new-years-eve-violence-probe-rises-above-500-a6804946.html

The second one suggest that there have now been over two hundred complaints of sexual assault, and over 500 criminal complaints in all.

Reportedly 18 of the 31 men detained were asylum seekers.

If it's true there have been so few arrested then there must be something rotten at the heart of the local Police. Even disregarding the sexual assaults that number is woeful when compared with something like the London riots which saw roughly 2,000 people arrested within a similar time frame.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_England_riots#Race_relations

"By 15 August 2011 around 3,100 people had been arrested, of whom over 1,100 had appeared in court.[13] On 25 August the BBC reported that more than 2,000 people had been arrested in connection with the disorder in London."

"By August 2012, 1292 rioters had been handed custodial sentences totalling 1,800 years at 16.8 months on an average."

[Myth]

Keep in mind that those exact things were cited when Bulgaria was entering EU.

Yeah? Some UK politicians still repeat this stuff. However, actual ethnic Bulgarians emigrate to work and live a better life. The only ones who beg, steal, pickpocket and prostitute themselves are of a certain ethnic minority and are Bulgarians only by virtue of their identity card. That same minority gives Romanians a similarly bad reputation.

The same minority has its own isolated subculture within any host country and is extremely resistent to integration. Many of them are muslim, preffering to call themselves muslims, turks or anything other than Bulgarian. They don't speak Bulgarian in their day-to-day life either.

On the other hand, many thousands of promising students emigrate to study and work in Germany, Denmark and other more developed countries. Many of our doctors leave their practice here for greener pastures as well. Less educated Bulgarians go to pick oranges, take care of the elderly, work fields or wash dishes but they make it and they do it through honest labour.

So yes, call me racist, but the only one who would deny these facts is someone who has only watched Disney's "The Hunchback of Notre Dame" and thinks Esmeralda is an accurate representative of said minority.

And before someone takes up late Hore Tore's mantle and tells me that we suck because we can't integrate them: the west can't integrate them either. The practice of giving them free welfare and allowing them to parasite on society has done nothing good for them. It's the exact same issue as with the africans who come and create ghettoes in western cities and only go to collect their wellfare checks.

[Husar]

It's not so much a rotten police but rotten politics.
During normal days they are staffed with about ten people at the train station, that day they has 55.
That's the federal police, but the police in general is understaffed unless they prepare for big events by asking for support in advance.
Now unless they should use fortune tellers, they could not quite expect this to happen, could they?

I also heard that people could only be sent back for crimes that have a minimum sentence of three years in prison.
As of this year they seemingly changed it to one year minimum sentence, but that still allows for a lot of theft etc. without any effect on their asylum application...

[Fragony]

Regular police couldn't help it, but isn't a riott-squad supposed to called upon 24/7, who decides that in Germany?

edit, looks like exreme-right found a perfect excuse to attack innocent people. Could you please just don't do that ktxbye

[Husar]

Regular police couldn't help it, but isn't a riott-squad supposed to called upon 24/7, who decides that in Germany?

I don't think so, they have these ready-teams which operate within an entire state IIRC and they call them in advance, e.g. for football games or planned demonstrations, then they show up in force. I assume around NYE most of them were out celebrating themselves, police presence was increased but obviously not enough to deal with an unplanned event of this size. Police have been complaining for a while though that they're overworked just taking care of the regular sports events and so on though, many of them seem to have a lot of extra-hours that they can't take off because there'd be noone to replace them. It sounds a lot like politicians have cut the funding too much to allow the police to maintain sufficient personnel.


edit, looks like exreme-right found a perfect excuse to attack innocent people. Could you please just don't do that ktxbye

Yes, these pansies claim they want to protect Germans or Germany or whatever and then go beat up the most harmless innocent immigrants they can find, little girls from Africa or students or so, people who haven't really done anything wrong. They just create more victims instead of facing actually criminal immigrants (which would still be wrong since the police should deal with them but more understandable), but I guess those would put up too much of a fight for those knuckleheads...

[Sarmatian]

Yeah? Some UK politicians still repeat this stuff. However, actual ethnic Bulgarians emigrate to work and live a better life. The only ones who beg, steal, pickpocket and prostitute themselves are of a certain ethnic minority and are Bulgarians only by virtue of their identity card.

So, No True Scotsman, or in this case, a No True Bulgarian fallacy?

Seen plenty of ethnic Bulgarians involved in begging, stealing, prostitution, organized crime and crime in general. Don't even bother trying to sell that to me.

[Husar]

The real problem is that all these Balkan-people look the same to me.
How am I supposed to tell a Gypsy (aka Sinti and Roma, but I'm being super edgy today :cool4:) from a Bulgarian, a Serbian, an Arab, a Persian, an Indian or a North-African?
And then he's probably Pakistani anyway.

I guess that is how the "protectors of the fatherland" (read: Nazis) ended up beating up a 13 year-old tunesian girl instead of actual troublemakers like themselves...

[Gilrandir]

This is the problem with Germans. But Balkaners (e.g. Sarmatian) know an ethnic Bulgarian from an ethnic Albanian/Romanian/Greek/Macedonean/Gypsy/Turk at first sight.

[Fragony]

The real problem is that all these Balkan-people look the same to me.
How am I supposed to tell a Gypsy (aka Sinti and Roma, but I'm being super edgy today :cool4:) from a Bulgarian, a Serbian, an Arab, a Persian, an Indian or a North-African?
And then he's probably Pakistani anyway.

I guess that is how the "protectors of the fatherland" (read: Nazis) ended up beating up a 13 year-old tunesian girl instead of actual troublemakers like themselves...

That is pretty easy for me, I see it immediatly, features vary

[Viking]

Latest official report:

Cologne attackers were of migrant origin - minister (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35280386)



Nineteen individuals are currently under investigation by the state police in connection with the attacks, NRW's interior ministry says in a report (in German), none of them German nationals.

Those 19 suspects include 14 men from Morocco and Algeria. Ten of the suspects are asylum seekers, nine of whom arrived in Germany after September 2015.

The other nine are possibly in Germany illegally, the interior ministry says.


Monday's report into the attacks in Cologne says that the combination of group sexual violence with robbery had not previously been seen in Germany.

It notes that similar crimes took place in other parts of Germany on the 31 December, including in Hamburg.

The report describes a modus operandi known as "taharrush gamea" in Arabic, meaning group sexual harassment in crowds, and compares it to incidents reported in Cairo's Tahrir Square at the time of the Egyptian revolution.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

It's not so much a rotten police but rotten politics.
During normal days they are staffed with about ten people at the train station, that day they has 55.
That's the federal police, but the police in general is understaffed unless they prepare for big events by asking for support in advance.
Now unless they should use fortune tellers, they could not quite expect this to happen, could they?

I also heard that people could only be sent back for crimes that have a minimum sentence of three years in prison.
As of this year they seemingly changed it to one year minimum sentence, but that still allows for a lot of theft etc. without any effect on their asylum application...

What I read is that Merkel is now proposing to change the law, but it was still three years minimum tariff to get your application rejected, and only if you're not in danger if sent back.

In practice that means nobody will get an application rejected that wouldn't be rejected anyway.

Also, you have a pitiful number of Police, we would have been able to deploy double that and virtually no cops get New Year's Day off because they're needed to Police!

[Fragony]

This? http://www.thelocal.se/20160111/police-reinvestigate-sex-crimes-at-teen-festival

[Montmorency]

Why do you think she was a communist?

[Husar]

Why do you think she was a communist?

She lived in East Germany. Every true, self-respecting capitalist either fled from there or got shot trying.
It's a shame to commit suicide but when you get shot trying to leave a commie country your family can be proud of you while the secret police torture them.

As for the British police, yes, they also beat people in wheelchairs and shoot innocent men in the back on the subway, have total surveillance and demonstrating where it is inconvenient for the government is illegal. Either way it is less a police issue than a political one where the police have been complaining for a while that they are understaffed, overworked and underfunded. Just like the army and the banks. As we can see, all countries have their issues. ~;)

[Fragony]

Why do you think she was a communist?

http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-317907

She was probably also a stasi-informer. She said they tried to recruit her but that she turned them down, riiiiiight, instant class enemy

do mind upper left corner 'not varified by CNN'

[Pannonian]

She lived in East Germany. Every true, self-respecting capitalist either fled from there or got shot trying.
It's a shame to commit suicide but when you get shot trying to leave a commie country your family can be proud of you while the secret police torture them.

As for the British police, yes, they also beat people in wheelchairs and shoot innocent men in the back on the subway, have total surveillance and demonstrating where it is inconvenient for the government is illegal. Either way it is less a police issue than a political one where the police have been complaining for a while that they are understaffed, overworked and underfunded. Just like the army and the banks. As we can see, all countries have their issues. ~;)

The least we can do is stop the bleeding heart liberalism. I am a liberal, but not one who thinks that our culture is at fault for everything. I appreciate the ideals and history of English liberalism, and also that there are worse things out there than us. I welcome all who subscribe to these ideals, in practice as well as in argument. I oppose that which is a substantial threat to the reality of liberalism that reformers have worked for over the past few centuries. I follow Orwell's view that there is a streak in western leftism that seeks to blame everything on the Anglo-Americans, who are willing to spin the despicable actions of foreign governments in order to put the blame on the Anglo-Americans. Whatever our imperfections, there are far, far worse out there.

[Greyblades]

As for the British police, yes, they also beat people in wheelchairs and shoot innocent men in the back on the subway, have total surveillance and demonstrating where it is inconvenient for the government is illegal. Either way it is less a police issue than a political one where the police have been complaining for a while that they are understaffed, overworked and underfunded. Just like the army and the banks. As we can see, all countries have their issues. ~;)

http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/031/854/1260710343244.jpg

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

As for the British police, yes, they also beat people in wheelchairs and shoot innocent men in the back on the subway, have total surveillance and demonstrating where it is inconvenient for the government is illegal. Either way it is less a police issue than a political one where the police have been complaining for a while that they are understaffed, overworked and underfunded. Just like the army and the banks. As we can see, all countries have their issues. ~;)

Congratulations, you found two cases of the failure of British Police - now explain how the German Police allowed 1,000 men to sexually molest over two hundred women in a public square on New Year's Eve.

If there were Police off duty on the night, particularly riot officers, then this is a failure of Police culture - not politics. If riot officers are not on call it must be because the the Police culture doesn't think it necessary. This is a separate issue to lack of funds or lack of officers generally.

According to this: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35280386 the perpetrators were mostly North African and the majority of those arrested are either asylum seekers or illegals.

1. million in a year - you can't cope with that. Ask Stilicho.

[Husar]

Congratulations, you found two cases of the failure of British Police - now explain how the German Police allowed 1,000 men to sexually molest over two hundred women in a public square on New Year's Eve.

I agree with Pannonian, except on the Orwell part, it's too much fun to blame Anglos for everything. You nationalistic British people are so easy to bait. ~D


If there were Police off duty on the night, particularly riot officers, then this is a failure of Police culture - not politics. If riot officers are not on call it must be because the the Police culture doesn't think it necessary. This is a separate issue to lack of funds or lack of officers generally.

It seems quite obvious that there was no riot police present, perhaps because it was never necessary before.
And perhaps because funding does not allow for them to be on standby all the time. Should they do 72 hour shifts and work for half the pay? One police officer said the police in Cologne use the maximum allowed number of staff on New Year's Eve, I don't know who exactly sets this number but I can only assume it exists to keep the costs low.


According to this: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35280386 the perpetrators were mostly North African and the majority of those arrested are either asylum seekers or illegals.

1. million in a year - you can't cope with that. Ask Stilicho.

We could, but not with our archaic non-integration and lack of law enforcement.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

One million people in a year?

Yeah, no. Germany's population is around 80 million, taking in over 1 million a year means those people have no incentive to integrate, they can just form their own self-sufficient community in Germany.

Like I said - ask Stilicho, he tried to integrate a mass of refugees, he failed and then he got his head cut off.

[Beskar]

I have a feeling the Stilicho example is a little too antiquated to be directly comparable.

[Fragony]

I have a feeling the Stilicho example is a little too antiquated to be directly comparable.

Depends on how you look at it, Merke. isn't going to be killed but her political carreer is over. Nobody takes her serious anymore. Good at expanding her reich though.

[Beskar]

Depends on how you look at it, Merke. isn't going to be killed but her political carreer is over. Nobody takes her serious anymore. Good at expanding her reich though.

Was meaning the advancement in logistics, technology, eduction, identity, and so on, would significantly decrease the risks. Mass movement in ancient times brought famine for example.

[Sarmatian]

The real problem is that all these Balkan-people look the same to me.
How am I supposed to tell a Gypsy (aka Sinti and Roma, but I'm being super edgy today :cool4:) from a Bulgarian, a Serbian, an Arab, a Persian, an Indian or a North-African?
And then he's probably Pakistani anyway.


The good looking ones are Serbs.

[Gilrandir]

Sweden now has the biggest gender imbalance in Europe. 123 males for every 100 females. 71% of these refugees are male(they've counted).


I heard that Australia experiences a similar disbalance (though not connected with refugees). Ask them how they handle it.

[Husar]

One million people in a year?

Yeah, no. Germany's population is around 80 million, taking in over 1 million a year means those people have no incentive to integrate, they can just form their own self-sufficient community in Germany.

Syria doesn't have have enough people to send a million over for the next 100 years. I would think a lot of the Africans are not really eligible as they just come to become a famous football player.
Whether we can process that many people every year is a question of funding, but I'm sure they can all get a job here once our companies figure that they work for less money than Germans. But that is capitalism and the market will regulate itself and it's better for all of us.
(Also the British invented it ~;) )

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Was meaning the advancement in logistics, technology, eduction, identity, and so on, would significantly decrease the risks. Mass movement in ancient times brought famine for example.

The population movements are larger and faster, though. The various Germanic tribes did flood over the borders en masse largely in a single year but it's likely the numbers in the hundreds of thousands over all, rather than the millions.

Today we have no leaders of Stilicho's calibre. Merkel is more in the vein of Honorious, able to turn any advantage into a handicap.

Aside from that, no historical lesson is exact but the WRE faced many of the problems we do today, wasteful and corrupt to-heavy state organisations, depleted and demoralised armed forces, monetary collapse, falling native populations and even adverse climate change.

As I have said before, the mistake our ancestors made was believing Rome could not fall. That's eerily similar to the EU mantra of "ever closer union", the assumption that history is on your side.


The good looking ones are Serbs.

I heard the good looking women were Persian


Syria doesn't have have enough people to send a million over for the next 100 years. I would think a lot of the Africans are not really eligible as they just come to become a famous football player.
Whether we can process that many people every year is a question of funding, but I'm sure they can all get a job here once our companies figure that they work for less money than Germans. But that is capitalism and the market will regulate itself and it's better for all of us.
(Also the British invented it ~;) )

You have just had a massive scandal where hundreds of women were sexually assaulted in public and the Police were powerless to stop it.

Syria can easily send you another million and so can North Africa, time to wake up and smell the coffee. This doesn't have to go on for a hundred years, in another three years you could have 4.5 million new immigrants who don't speak your language or share you ideals.

Lets suppose for a moment that, like Sweden, roughly 70% of them are men, who will mostly be men of fighting age. The entire Bundeswehr, including reserves, is only a around 210,000. If these people decide to riot en masse you'd potentially have to mobilise your entire armed forces alongside the police to stand up to them, assuming no more enter Germany, which they will.

Germany needs to recognise the scale of the problem now or reap the whirlwind.

[Montmorency]

I think you have underestimated Merkel, though of course if her gambles fail then things will get chaotic in Europe.


Days after returning from difficult negotiations over a third Greek debt bailout, Angela Merkel met a group of school children in the northern city of Rostock.

With the cameras rolling, a 14-year-old Palestinian girl named Reem Sahwil told Ms Merkel that she feared being sent back to a refugee camp in Lebanon if her family’s asylum application was rejected. “I don’t know what my future looks like as long as I don’t know if I can stay,” she told Ms Merkel in perfect German. “I’d like to go to college. That is really a . . . goal I’d like to achieve.”

Ms Merkel responded with a lesson in political realities. “We can’t just say, ‘You can all come. And all of you in Africa can come.’ We can’t manage that,” she said. Ms Sahwil broke down in tears. A video of the moment went viral, leaving an impression that the German chancellor could be cold, even mean.

Yet only a few weeks later, the woman who had failed to console one refugee was embracing hundreds of thousands.

My impression is that in 2015 Merkel understood that, as has been highlighted by the New Year's incidents, the German police and border guard are completely incapable of managing such throngs, so her options were to expend her political capital domestically and in Europe on shutting down the borders and concentrating the migrants already in the continent - making a fortress of the EU and damaging Germany's soft power in Europe when it has very little hard power - or to force the issue and bring things to a head, making it a problem that all Europe would have to confront but that could only be solved with German domination.

Of course, it's a tremendous gamble with repercussions far beyond German society, but basically it will be necessary for the EU states to accept Merkel's power play or try to deal on their own with a disintegrating political and economic framework. I understand that neither of these are preferable for many, but frankly it's good to see some proper leadership in the Western world again.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

See - that except tells me something very different.

She doesn't know there's a difference between a North African and a Levantine.

Notably, the report from the German authorities identified a majority of North Africans, not "North Africans and Arabs" as many news sources have been suggesting.

And who calls a 14 year old girl "Ms"?

I think the truth is that Merkel was simply unprepared for the influx and is unprepared to make hard choices. As you note, she is not ready to spend her personal political capital to protect even her own people until forced. Meanwhile, that unspent capital is depreciating as the Contient slides towards a real atrocity - Cologne has brought Germany many steps closer to a Pogrom against Arabs.

It will be a sad irony if a fear of repeating the past actually results in exactly that, repetition of pasts sins. Before you label me Melodramatic consider that a few weeks ago what happened on New Year's Eve was unthinkable.

[Montmorency]

I think the truth is that Merkel was simply unprepared for the influx and is unprepared to make hard choices.

Rather the opposite: Merkel understood that Germany and Europe were unprepared for the migrants unless they immediately somehow united to fund and enforce a Trumpian security regime around the entire Mediterranean underbelly, and she took a big risk by acknowledging it and moving events in a direction that would benefit Germany, or at least prove least harmful.

Remember that when you are facing millions of migrants - remember back to all your lessons from Medieval and ancient history - you either throw them back by the strength of your arms, or you let them pass.


consider that a few weeks ago what happened on New Year's Eve was unthinkable.

The event itself was trivial. What mattered (and still does) was the reaction.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Rather the opposite: Merkel understood that Germany and Europe were unprepared for the migrants unless they immediately somehow united to fund and enforce a Trumpian security regime around the entire Mediterranean underbelly, and she took a big risk by acknowledging it and moving events in a direction that would benefit Germany, or at least prove least harmful.

So she deliberately created the current situation and resulting abuses?

I don't understand what you're saying here.

That concerted joint action was necessary was as obvious as it was impossible.


Remember that when you are facing millions of migrants - remember back to all your lessons from Medieval and ancient history - you either throw them back by the strength of your arms, or you let them pass.

More properly, you throw them back or you submit to them. Peoples have never simple "passed through". Migration continues until the onward pressure abates - so if you "let the migrants pass" they stop and settle.

At that point you either subjugate them, integrate them or submit to them.


The event itself was trivial. What mattered (and still does) was the reaction.

Neither the assaults nor the abject failure of the German Police were trivial. I like to think of myself as a hard man but even I would say that several hundred women being assaulted in public is nothing but a national disgrace.

The reaction has been mostly apathy from the German Establishment, some talk of tightening Asylum rules but that's basically it - the German people are currently vacillating between committing an ethnic cleansing and adopting a battered wife attitude.

What we are seeing is the Liberal "heart" of the EU in France, Germany and Scandinavia swinging to the Right. What hasn't been picked up on yet is that, particularly in Germany, people are starting to move to the Right of the UK.

[Montmorency]

That concerted joint action was necessary was as obvious as it was impossible.


So she deliberately created the current situation and resulting abuses?

I don't understand what you're saying here.

I'm saying she saw the first so she took actions that would lead sooner rather than later to questions of regional policy to a head.


At that point you either subjugate them, integrate them or submit to them.

A view not held by most contemporary historians; what you call integration they consider mutual assimilation, since typically the major changes affected those at the top of the political structure most immediately and significantly. Strip it to the barest essentials and you just have the dichotomy I gave.


What we are seeing is the Liberal "heart" of the EU in France, Germany and Scandinavia swinging to the Right. What hasn't been picked up on yet is that, particularly in Germany, people are starting to move to the Right of the UK.

That is indeed one of the elements in the European challenge Merkel brings to the fore. If she succeeds, she can fracture or at least stabilize right-wing populism in Europe. If she fails then she opens yet another vulnerability in the system for them to leverage.


Note that this isn't to express utmost confidence in Merkel. Her trademark is in dealing decisively with 'fresh' political pressures with a payoff achieved in the short-term, say within one year at most. Looking at her record, there's no evidence in particular that she can manage a long-term investment with continuous and active (especially public) management. Notably, she has always struggled to align the various strands of policy issues into a coherent synthesis, though that is what she seems to be approaching now.

But whatever you think of her tack (sic), or of her Central-Europeanism, it is clear that something like her is what we have been asking for. How long have we been crying for want of strategic direction in Europe? A democratic society in disarray always calls for a quasi-autocratic visionary, the very thing it tends to fear most. If she does get this right, she could be as great as FDR, the strong hand sweeping away the burden of fear and despotism.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

If Merkel is our hope I think we're doomed - not least because if she manages to unite Europe it can only be by the use of hard economic power.

Oppression of subject peoples leads inevitably to systemic collapse of the state or war.

Democracy is our only hope for any kind of lasting peace.

Merkel is not Augustus, she can't manage despotism cloaked in popular democracy and she isn't brave enough to try. She might be egotistical enough though.

[Gilrandir]

And who calls a 14 year old girl "Ms"?



Those who call the married woman (Merkel) the same (see the piece from the FT).

[AE Bravo]

Nice to see the backroom still all about the "brown people creeeping up on us."

Immigrationroom imo.

[Fragony]

Nice to see the backroom still all about the "brown people creeeping up on us."

Immigrationroom imo.

So what is your opinion on what happened there then, without your opinion of the backroom

[Sarmatian]

Merkel is not Augustus, she can't manage despotism cloaked in popular democracy and she isn't brave enough to try. She might be egotistical enough though.

The answer is suggesting itself.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yfVQDK4EJk

[Greyblades]

Nice to see the backroom still all about the "brown people creeeping up on us."

Immigrationroom imo.

Who's this?

[Beskar]

Those who call the married woman (Merkel) the same (see the piece from the FT).

Ms is a title for a female which doesn't reflect their married status. Thus, a marriage-neutral term, and it was used correctly in both circumstances. PFH was probably referring to the fact a 14-yr old cannot be married, and should be "Miss" anyway.

[Viking]

Nice to see the backroom still all about the "brown people creeeping up on us."

Immigrationroom imo.

It's hardly ever about the skin colour (including the old African vs European American noise) - that's just a convenient scapegoat for so-called progressives. The real culprit is ingroup versus outgroup dynamics that, not unsurprisingly given human evolution, correlate with physical attributes of the groups. The solution with the best result is complete assimilation, but such thinking is taboo.

[Montmorency]

The real culprit is ingroup versus outgroup dynamics that, not unsurprisingly given human evolution, correlate with physical attributes of the groups. The solution with the best result is complete assimilation, but such thinking is taboo.

Complete assimilation is, unsurprisingly by the same group dynamics you mention, a rarity in world history given fierce resistance by all parties involved. The world today is just about overrun with cultural irredentism of all forms, and I do believe you could say that nationalism has not really come into its own until just now. To wit:

The 19th c. was the century of ideology.
The 20th c. was the century of the State.
The 21st c. will be (among other things) the century of nationalism.

[Pannonian]

It's hardly ever about the skin colour (including the old African vs European American noise) - that's just a convenient scapegoat for so-called progressives. The real culprit is ingroup versus outgroup dynamics that, not unsurprisingly given human evolution, correlate with physical attributes of the groups. The solution with the best result is complete assimilation, but such thinking is taboo.

Most of the first generation in the UK don't have much problems assimilating to the satisfaction of the host culture. The problem lies with the second generation, who grew up thoroughly assimilated, yet who decide to pursue what to them is an alien culture. See the dad who denounced his son, who went to join ISIS, as a traitor to his country (UK). And yes, that dad regarded the UK as the country of both the son, who was born here, and the father, who moved here and adopted it as his home.

[Montmorency]

And what do you base this on? I would put my money on nativism or some nebulous cultural maxim.

There is some intersection between what we said.

The 19th c. was driven by European states (and to some extent the US) transitioning to new economic modes while managing internal political activism and the export of ideology.

The 20th c. was about the maturation of super-populous industrial economies in need of resources and markets, the friction they experienced amongst each other as they developed weighty managerial states with both huge powers and huge obligations, and the sparking and steaming that resulted.

What we are seeing so far in the 21st c. is the genuine maturation of nationalism (which is ultimately inextricable from nativism) along increasingly fragmentary and incongruous lines, some being new and some being forged composites of ancient distinctions ...

And even this is but a subset of the 'pluralism saturation'. You see, there are too many identities coexisting at the moment, and in historical terms they are all absurdly powerful in the magnitude and scope of their expression, yet there is no clear way for one identity or its competing constituents (e.g. nerd, feminist, patriot, connoisseur, pervert...) to settle in amongst the rest; in other words, I'm drawing a parallel between national states bursting at the seams in the 20th c. on the way to establishing an international order.

So what we should see now is a culling of identities, including national identities. 'Everyone is queer' is not a stable circumstance, and we will see some kind of process of consolidation.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Nice to see the backroom still all about the "brown people creeeping up on us."

Immigrationroom imo.

The idea of "Brown People" is an American invention, it's not relevant to European prejudices.

You're too Americanised.

Anyway - we know now that 1,000 men, mostly recent arrivals seeking Asylum or illegals, assaulted several hundred German women. This is a big problem.


The answer is suggesting itself.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yfVQDK4EJk

Putin is more Sallust than Augustus - he's also doomed.


Ms is a title for a female which doesn't reflect their married status. Thus, a marriage-neutral term, and it was used correctly in both circumstances. PFH was probably referring to the fact a 14-yr old cannot be married, and should be "Miss" anyway.

A girl should be "Miss" and not "Ms" - she's not an adult and should not be treated as such. Merkel should not have treated her as an adult.

[Montmorency]

Anyway - we know now that 1,000 men, mostly recent arrivals seeking Asylum or illegals, assaulted several hundred German women. This is a big problem.

Well, assuming the 30-odd detained suspects were representative of the mob, then we get mostly non-Syrians (primarily North Africans, Afghans, etc.), most of whom have been in Europe for at least a year. That's an important demographic distinction to acknowledge, if correctly-construed.


A girl should be "Miss" and not "Ms" - she's not an adult and should not be treated as such. Merkel should not have treated her as an adult.

No, it's iffy. Nowadays "Miss" is reserved for primary-school age girls or younger. It is not at all unusual to see an adolescent referred to as "Ms".

[Papewaio]

I think the model response is the one from Denmark in WWII. Where all where encouraged to wear the yellow Star of David.

However it might be difficult given the lack of wearing of religious symbols in the public service in France for a French politician to suggest doing this.

[Fragony]

Nothing can be done about it but I don't like this

edit, do like this lmao https://mobile.twitter.com/jellebc/status/687543213750616064/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc^tfw

[Gilrandir]

Ms is a title for a female which doesn't reflect their married status. Thus, a marriage-neutral term, and it was used correctly in both circumstances. PFH was probably referring to the fact a 14-yr old cannot be married, and should be "Miss" anyway.

The titles (which grammatically are appositions) perform a differentiating/identifying function. For instance, Colonel Smith serves to differentiate him from Major Smith, His Highness is clearly different from His Majesty or His Excellency. Thus, titles presuppose at least a two member opposition. Calling any woman "Miss" cancels this opposition rule and doesn't differentiate the woman from others, so it becomes empty which is contrary to the funtion of the title.



You see, there are too many identities coexisting at the moment, and in historical terms they are all absurdly powerful in the magnitude and scope of their expression, yet there is no clear way for one identity or its competing constituents (e.g. nerd, feminist, patriot, connoisseur, pervert...) to settle in amongst the rest

If you mean that those identities can't coexist in one person, I don't think you are right. There is an idea of possible worlds (suggested by Leibnitz) which in one of its reading says that a person lives in different possible worlds: in one he is a father, in the second he is a teacher, in the third he is a son, in the fourth he is a husband, in the fifth he is a customer, in the sixth he is a lover etc. These epitomes don't exist simultaneously, one of them surfaces at a given moment (say, when you are spending time with your kids your are a father), while others "stand by". When you come to the office you stop being a father and your CEO epitome switches on. Curiously, different epitomes can be axiologically different - one may be a good CEO, but a bad father, a pleasant customer, but a horrible husband.

If we adopt this approach, the different identities you speak of may not be mutually exclusive - one can be a patriotic feministic nerd who is a connoisseur in pervert games.

[Montmorency]

The titles (which grammatically are appositions)

Appositions are something entirely different. Everything you said afterward is invalid.


If you mean that those identities can't coexist in one person, I don't think you are right. There is an idea of possible worlds (suggested by Leibnitz) which in one of its reading says that a person lives in different possible worlds: in one he is a father, in the second he is a teacher, in the third he is a son, in the fourth he is a husband, in the fifth he is a customer, in the sixth he is a lover etc. These epitomes don't exist simultaneously, one of them surfaces at a given moment (say, when you are spending time with your kids your are a father), while others "stand by". When you come to the office you stop being a father and your CEO epitome switches on. Curiously, different epitomes can be axiologically different - one may be a good CEO, but a bad father, a pleasant customer, but a horrible husband.

If we adopt this approach, the different identities you speak of may not be mutually exclusive - one can be a patriotic feministic nerd who is a connoisseur in pervert games.

What I was saying is that we are presently going through a period in which identity partisanship is intense in magnitude at the same time as there is a proliferation of identities that are similar in cultural importance and influence. What this means is that these identities, especially ones that explicitly conflict with each other, cannot settle easily into equilibrium as they are all too forceful with respect to each other. Furthermore, all of these identities are internally-riven with internecine contest over fundamentals. The world has never been more pluralistic, but the space for identities is too crowded, similarly to typical cases involving population groups/political units.

Think of how many cases we have today of Identity A partisans engaging in a vocal and public, even existential, struggle against partisans of other identities that they consider to be infringing or threatening their broad worldviews and ways of life. These identities are all very powerful in historical terms due to the confluence of population growth (i.e. more partisans), technological innovation (i.e. higher capacity to grow the identity convergently, divergently, or against other identities), and capitalist economics promoting an amenable environment (i.e. labor binds all identities together and lubricates the fault lines). On the other hand, partisans cannot find resolution as opposing identities are comparably powerful in the immediate circumstances. Identities do compete with each other (both within and across individuals), but multiple similarly-strong forces grinding against each other builds tension, so to put it simply we have:

1. Many identities
2. Many partisans
3. Limited capacity for identities in the current environment to dominate or decisively overwhelm each other.

So fear, anger, and other passion will continue to build up. Since the world wars powerful states have generally outsourced many of their powers to multinational corporations, and in return the corporations created an economic framework in which nations and states had incentive to focus on production and service above all else. Thus we see some people claiming that we have seen an unprecedented and perhaps permanent decline in violence and warfare. However, the modern economic framework has become badly frayed and people are left to focus on their identity partisanship and resistance against perceived hostile identities. An obvious outlet of that would be into nationalism and parochialism in general. Moreover, since it would be challenging for the economic and political orders to both recover and assuage tension between identities, the trend is really toward a 'meltdown' and subsequent stabilization. The most simplistic interpretation would be armed ethnic conflict leading to another round of large-scale wars in Europe and elsewhere, but the whole issue is further complicated by the fact that we cannot even begin to factor in the inevitable disruptive effects of climate change and new technologies...

I'm not going to comment on this thesis in the thread anymore - it's making me wince to read it.

[Fragony]

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-europe-migrants-finland-idUSKCN0UR20G20160113?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews

oh look fascists

how wonderfully quaint

Yikes, here as well. I really don't aprove of this but I know who to blame, there's your multiculture.

Symbol is a skull, where did we see that before

[Gilrandir]

Appositions are something entirely different. Everything you said afterward is invalid.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apposition



Apposition is a grammatical construction in which two elements, normally noun phrases, are placed side by side, with one element serving to identify the other in a different way. The two elements are said to be in apposition.

I may be wrong about many things, but the language (English in particular) is what I consider to be my special province.




However, the modern economic framework has become badly frayed and people are left to focus on their identity partisanship and resistance against perceived hostile identities. An obvious outlet of that would be into nationalism and parochialism in general.

If a nation has had its identity for quite a time, it (the nation) tends to grow acquisitive as to other identities. Thus the tendency towards internationalisation prevails. The nations who have been robbed of their identity and whose identities are in the state of shaping expose an opposite tendency - nationalism. In modern Europe both tendencies are evident within one supernational formation (the EU) which causes tensions were are witnessing.

[Montmorency]

I may be wrong about many things, but the language (English in particular) is what I consider to be my special province.

The article has no connection to anything you wrote. Which is why I pointed out that what you said was invalid...

[Gilrandir]

The article has no connection to anything you wrote. Which is why I pointed out that what you said was invalid...

If you didn't find any connection (though the definition of apposition was quite explicit), here's one more definition:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/apposition



a grammatical construction in which two usually adjacent nouns having the same referent stand in the same syntactical relation to the rest of a sentence (as the poet and Burns in “a biography of the poet Burns”)


Ms in Ms Merkel performs the same identifying function as poet in poet Burns. It is true that they identify the person according to a different criterion (marital satus in the former and occupation in the latter), but the type of criteria doesn't change its identifying/differentiating nature.

[Montmorency]

No. Not at all.

You said this:


The titles (which grammatically are appositions) perform a differentiating/identifying function. For instance, Colonel Smith serves to differentiate him from Major Smith, His Highness is clearly different from His Majesty or His Excellency. Thus, titles presuppose at least a two member opposition. Calling any woman "Miss" cancels this opposition rule and doesn't differentiate the woman from others, so it becomes empty which is contrary to the funtion of the title.


What you said has nothing to do with apposition as you have cited it. Moreover, what you said is invalid. Titles and honorifics (indeed, any noun phrase) denote something in themselves, and their usage is not predicated on the existence of similar-but-distinct phrases. If that were the case, then a sentence like "The entity Angela Merkel is leader of Germany today" would invoke a paradox. I think you may be confusing yourself with some kind of distortion of Saussure's claim that "in language there are only differences without positive terms".

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Well, assuming the 30-odd detained suspects were representative of the mob, then we get mostly non-Syrians (primarily North Africans, Afghans, etc.), most of whom have been in Europe for at least a year. That's an important demographic distinction to acknowledge, if correctly-construed.

Apparently they have only detained 19 now. Nine are thought to be illegals, and irrc four or six of the remainder arrived since September last year.

Apparently this particular cultural behaviour has a name and was used in Egypt during the revolution. The fact that no Syrians were involved does not mean they do not pose a problem - just that they may not pose this problem.

To be clear - if you currently transplant a million Englishmen into Germany you'll have a problem too. We know this, in fact, because British Servicemen caused constant problems when they were garrisoned in Germany during the cold war, and the "Ex-Pats" cause constant problems for the Spanish.


No, it's iffy. Nowadays "Miss" is reserved for primary-school age girls or younger. It is not at all unusual to see an adolescent referred to as "Ms".

It's not iffy, an unmarried woman should be referred to a s "Miss", that's very clearly still the rule in the UK. Admittedly the practice of calling an unmarried man "Master" has mostly fallen out of favour but you still see it used. In the context of juveniles there's no reason to use "Ms" because you know they can't be married. Ms was invented for diverced women, so that people didn't have to tip-toe around asking if a woman in her forties was still married.

I would say use of "Ms" is pretty clear cut, in the UK at least, it denotes either a divorced woman or a woman who is married but has not changed her name. I have never seen an unmarried woman under the age of 30 use the title "Ms".

[Montmorency]

The fact that no Syrians were involved does not mean they do not pose a problem - just that they may not pose this problem.

The idea is to correctly diagnose the threads in the problem. Obviously it depends on what the particular argument is, but if it's that Syrian refugees pose an immediate criminal risk then it's not evidenced and at the very least we can hope there is time and room to work on averting it coming about.


I have never seen an unmarried woman under the age of 30 use the title "Ms".

It's almost universal here. :shrug:

[Beskar]

I would say use of "Ms" is pretty clear cut, in the UK at least, it denotes either a divorced woman or a woman who is married but has not changed her name. I have never seen an unmarried woman under the age of 30 use the title "Ms".

My understanding is that, Ms was revived from an older form for mistresses due to feminist belief in representing that women should not be defined by their martial status. It is not to do with divorced or unchanged women, though they might choose to use this form of address. It is also a good title to use as you don't have to ask whether or not they are married to apply the 'correct term'. I also seen the title "Ms" in under 30 quite a lot, as many prefer it to "Miss".

Quick search shows this is supported by wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ms.) definition too.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

It's entirely possible that it's my social class and/or geographic location. Certainly, in the South of England Miss is still prevalent, certainly for juveniles, whilst Ms is used if you don't know the correct form of address - which might indeed be Ms.

Usage is generally as outlined, young women use "Miss" until married, after which they use Mrs if they take their husband's name of Ms is they don't - divorced women may or may not use Ms depending on whether they keep their husband's name.

My Cousin has seperated from her husband, she's actually gone back to "Miss" I believe.

[Sarmatian]

Yikes, here as well. I really don't aprove of this but I know who to blame, there's your multiculture.

Symbol is a skull, where did we see that before

And we should also blame the rape victim for wearing the short skirt, right?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

No, because one is a government policy and the other is a personal wardrobe choice.

Multiculturalism is a fundamentally contradictory policy - on the one hand incomers are not required to integrate, on the other the host culture is expected to adapt to the immigrants.

This breads resentment, which breeds Fascists.

[Husar]

Multiculturalism is a fundamentally contradictory policy - on the one hand incomers are not required to integrate, on the other the host culture is expected to adapt to the immigrants.

I feel like I've hardly ever seen anyone who wanted this type of multiculture and yet everybody here says we have it.
The lack of integration seems more like a long-standing political failure that was apparently never important enough for the public to make politicians do anything about it.
Even the most liberal people I know seem to think that immigrants should learn the language, not become criminals etc., they just embrace multiculturalism as a form of cultural exchange where you don't force all immigrants to dance the waltz but also learn the dances from their homeland instead or exchange painting techniques and other artsy stuff.

As for immigration policy, now that is obviously screwed up but that is not new, it's just that too few people cared about it until rape became more important than the new iPhone. You get what you (repeatedly) vote for.
By the way, saving everyone's internet data did apparently not prevent it or maybe it was because noone mentioned a bomb when they coordinated this. Some already say the answer is more surveillance.

There was also a talk on TV where they mentioned that most of them were north africans (especially from Morocco). Their asylum papers had them down as Syrians but by now it seems clear they were pseudo-syrians. The theory that France has more muslim problems because they have more Moroccans and we have more Turks and Kurds was thrown around as well as the one that ISIS is mostly joined by people from Saudi Arabia and Morocco and other North African countries, Egypt and another one notably excluded as hotspots. So it appears that for some reason some countries that we use as tourists and that are safe because they are police states (let me guess, supported by us?) export the most violent migrants. Not to forget that we already have a whole lot of criminals from that area who probably gladly offer the newcomers to "show them around"... Couple that with completely inadequate laws where they can easily exploit our judicial system and it seems obvious that we slept for too long and now have to run behind them to catch up. I guess now we need to become police states, too.

[Beskar]

I feel like I've hardly ever seen anyone who wanted this type of multiculture and yet everybody here says we have it.
It is a strawman as it is easier to defeat the concept if you say that is the intention of it. I agree that failures in implementing the policy correctly has seen that result.

[Montmorency]

Do people still not realize that "multiculturalism" is a political football used from the 1950's on to convince native Europeans that 'you don't need to worry about all those foreigners we're importing, we don't have to include them in our society, they'll just be here to work and make us rich and then they'll return whence they came'?

It's much more a union of nativism and free market lobbying than any sort of leftist cosmopolitan impulse.

[Fragony]

You never respond to me anyway so I will just say that you are wrong

[Greyblades]

Do people still not realize that "multiculturalism" is a political football used from the 1950's on to convince native Europeans that 'you don't need to worry about all those foreigners we're importing, we don't have to include them in our society, they'll just be here to work and make us rich and then they'll return whence they came'?

It's much more a union of nativism and free market lobbying than any sort of leftist cosmopolitan impulse.


You never respond to me anyway so I will just say that you are wrong


No, because one is a government policy and the other is a personal wardrobe choice.

Multiculturalism is a fundamentally contradictory policy - on the one hand incomers are not required to integrate, on the other the host culture is expected to adapt to the immigrants.

This breads resentment, which breeds Fascists.

Considering this forum's standard of evidence and the nebulous-ness of the term are such that as far as we are concerned all of these statments may as well be simultaneously correct.

[Montmorency]

all of these statments may as well be simultaneously correct.

Fragony's statement has nothing to do with the other two quoted. PVC's quote does not impinge on mine, and the reasoning in mine clearly acknowledges and expands on some of the reasoning in PVC's.

I think most of your trouble comes from difficulty following along. :shrug:

[Myth]

Today I crossed the border illegally and entered Saudi Arabia. On the way I threw away my identity card, issued by the police department of Burgas and I told the border patrol that I'm a refugee from Donbass who is looking for salvation from the terror of Putin. They believed me immmediately and put me on the train to Riyadh. They provided accomodations for me in a 3 star hotel, even though there was a 5 star hotel nearby and they told me that tomorrow they will provide a flat for me. On the morning they started apologizing that my moving in the new apartament will be delayed for an entire day. That infuriated me. I stomped on the food some teary eyed human rights activists brought to me, I splashed the water bottle in their faces, I vandalized the stupid hotel room and the couch and armchairs I threw directly out of the balcony. Some people on the street started yelling at me but the hotel manager told them that I have come from a war zone, that I bear in my soul the scars of war and that I have been deeply traumatized, and as such they have to show compassion and understanding. They bought it.

On Thursday they threw out an elderly arabian couple out of the flat provided to them by the municipality so that I may move in. The old folks had the audacity to protest against this so the police had to step in and now they will be tried for misdemeanor. I however, was greeted by children bearing boquets of flowers in front of the apartment building. King Abdullah bin Abdulaziz Al Saud showed up from somwhere and took a selfie with me. They gave me 2000 dollars so that I can cover my most immediate needs.

On Friday a social worker visited me. He brought me a pamphlet with the first 10 amendments of the Arabic constitution, translated to my native ukranian tongue and he asked me if I need anything. "Tell that guy who keeps shouting every morning from the minaret to keep it down, he is interfering with my sleep" I told him and he diligently wrote it down. On Sunday I walked around to look at the local girls, but they were all wrapped tightly like mummies. I was enraged and on Monday I issued an offical complaint to the mayor. On the same day the principal of the local high school issued a proclamation towards the school girls to refrain from waring burqas, because they are hurting my feelings. He suggested that in the future they should dress witih tank tops and mini skirts, becasue my European culture demands that I look at breasts and thighs. This was made into a pamphlet and was issused to the parents so that they may infrom themselves and take action.

I also complained about the food to the social worker. Lamb is too greasy for my delicate stomach and beef is too tough and it wears out my teeth. I explained that I preffer tender pork - steaks, fillet or at the very least, rump. He promissed me that he would take action. Now all the kebab shops in the neighborhood have been instructed not to shove lamb so openly in my face so that they don't cause me distress.

It's not easy being a migrant! Now I had to drag myself 300 meters to get my social benefits - not even a full 2000 dollars! That threw me into a rage and I took it out on a school girl. "Why are you wearing a burqa you whore, I told you to wear a mini skirt!" I yelled at her. She had the audacity to talk back to me so I slapped her around a bit. I considered dragging her to the nearby bushes and raping her but when I thoguht how much work it would be to unwrap her from her clothes I gave up. I later learned that her brothers had issues with me slapping her around and they filed a complaint with the police and started collecting signatures against my person. The minister of internal affairs had to step in and defend me publicly on TV. "We have to be tolerant of the christians and we must hope that tomorrow, when they ar the majority in Saudi Arabia, they will show similar compassion for us." he stated.

This morning I told the social worker that I'm bored to death and I ordered him to get a move on and to organize some entertainment for me - a gay parade or something. He oggled me but I explained that we are living in the 21st century and that new values must be enforced. "Every marriage should be a same sex marriage and every man - a mother!" I stated matter-of-factly. I'm not sure he understood me, but he wrote it down.

After lunch some people from a social research company came over to interview me. I was honest and I told hem that I deeply despise the country which has sheltered me, but I have nothing against being fed and given wellfare. Not at all.

The issue with the school girl started gaining popularity again and the national television invited members of America for Saudi Arabia, Open Society and the Arabian Helsinki Commitee. They all agreed that I have been unjustly slandered and that my enemies are xenophobes, racists, facists, cannibals and christianophobes. Half of them have been raped by their fathers as children or they have slept with their mothers. I calmed down because I learned that only the scum of this society hates me and that the progressive part of it stands behind me. Today, the social worker asked me if I want to start working, but I replied that I still don't feel quite integrated yet, so I will stay on state benefits. True, it's only a mesely 2000 dollars but I'll have to endure!

[Gilrandir]

What you said has nothing to do with apposition as you have cited it. Moreover, what you said is invalid. Titles and honorifics (indeed, any noun phrase) denote something in themselves, and their usage is not predicated on the existence of similar-but-distinct phrases.

They do have their own meaning, but being used appositively they perfrom the function(s) I mentioned. If you deny that Chancellor in Chancellor Merkel is an apposition, I'm afraid it is you who run contrary to long-established grammatical traditions. Well, it is your call. :shrug:




In the context of juveniles there's no reason to use "Ms" because you know they can't be married.

Maybe we should dig deeper and remember that it was used referring to a 14 year old MUSLIM girl - and in that culture females of this age are eligible for marriage. With that in mind the journalists may have been quite aware and indeed intentional of the word they used.

[Gilrandir]

Today I crossed the border illegally and entered Saudi Arabia. On the way I threw away my identity card, issued by the police department of Burgas and I told the border patrol that I'm a refugee from Donbass who is looking for salvation from the terror of Putin. They believed me immmediately and put me on the train to Riyadh.

They should have hired Sarmatian as a border guard. He can tell a Ukrainian from a Bulgarian by sight so you would have never been let in and it would have saved them all the trouble.

[Fragony]

Fragony's statement has nothing to do with the other two quoted. PVC's quote does not impinge on mine, and the reasoning in mine clearly acknowledges and expands on some of the reasoning in PVC's.

I think most of your trouble comes from difficulty following along. :shrug:

Yeah it has everything to do with not being able to keep up, but maybe your orghan is broken

[Montmorency]

If you deny that Chancellor in Chancellor Merkel is an apposition, I'm afraid it is you who run contrary to long-established grammatical traditions.


Apposition is a grammatical construction in which two elements, normally noun phrases, are placed side by side, with one element serving to identify the other in a different way. The two elements are said to be in apposition.

How do you not notice that what you say is utterly inconsistent with the reference material?

[Pannonian]

Do you have a link to the source article?

[Viking]

The lack of integration seems more like a long-standing political failure that was apparently never important enough for the public to make politicians to do anything about it.

[...]

As for immigration policy, now that is obviously screwed up but that is not new, it's just that too few people cared about it until rape became more important than the new iPhone.

I'm not so sure such a (non-authoritarian) policy exists.

I can't help but think of a dude jumping of a tall building, swearing that with the right policy, he'll be able to fly with the power of his own bare arms the next time..

You'd think it was important to find evidence for the existence of such policies before we accepted more massive immigration, but nah.


I guess now we need to become police states, too.

It wouldn't surprise me if this kind of thinking actually was at work in the back of the minds of many of those who are pro-mass immigration. There can never be too many immigrants, then - the state will handle everything. There's a legal measure for every problem, you know.

"If this goes really bad, we can just introduce more "pro-tolerance" (read: authoritarian) legal measures. I heard Yugoslavia was a peaceful, authoritarian multiethnic country. We'll be fine."

[Gilrandir]

How do you not notice that what you say is utterly inconsistent with the reference material?

I quoted the same source and you said that I was wrong in identifying apposition. If Chancellor in Chancellor Merkel welcomed the refugees is not an apposition, then do tell me what part of the sentence it is.

[Greyblades]

You know a conversatioon has gone stale when they start debating grammar.


Fragony's statement has nothing to do with the other two quoted. PVC's quote does not impinge on mine, and the reasoning in mine clearly acknowledges and expands on some of the reasoning in PVC's.

I mean that the word multicultural's meaning is so vague and subjective that your statment can be said to be simultaniously right and wrong.


I think most of your trouble comes from difficulty following along. :shrug: Hello kettle, I'm pot, have we met?

I think your trouble is that you write like a university student attempting to gain extra credit through rarely used words and long-winded writing patterns. Combined with a habit of failing to connect your rebuttle with the post you are responding to and you have freqently become outright incomprehensable.

[Husar]

Cool story bro!

[Husar]

I'm not so sure such a (non-authoritarian) policy exists.

I can't help but think of a dude jumping of a tall building, swearing that with the right policy, he'll be able to fly with the power of his own bare arms the next time..

You'd think it was important to find evidence for the existence of such policies before we accepted more massive immigration, but nah.

Yes it was, but it was also important not to let half a million Syrians freeze to death in front of a barbed wire fence.
It is not their fault that we failed for decades to weed out the criminals among the immigrants or is it?


It wouldn't surprise me if this kind of thinking actually was at work in the back of the minds of many of those politicians who are pro-mass immigration. There can never be too many immigrants, then - the state will handle everything. There's a legal measure for every problem, you know.

Fixed it. Unless you want to convince me that the far left aka antifa is in favor of being spied upon all the time.

[Fragony]

Why would they freeze to death in the first save country they enter?

[Husar]

Why would they freeze to death in the first save country they enter?

Because it is already full?

If we are full with a million, surely Turkey is already overfilled with three or how many they took already.

Apparently they have so many that they already try to illegally send them back, hardly a country you could stay in even if you wanted to...
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35135810


Amnesty International says its research has found that scores - possibly hundreds - of refugees and asylum-seekers have been sent back to Syria and Iraq.
"This is absolutely illegal, both under Turkish and international law, because you cannot forcibly return someone to a place where their lives and rights are in danger," said Andrew Gardner, the head of Amnesty in Turkey.

[AE Bravo]

King Abdullah bin Abdulaziz Al Saud showed up from somwhere and took a selfie with me. They gave me 2000 dollars so that I can cover my most immediate needs
He's dead, dummy.

[AE Bravo]

Who's this?
The rapist?

You're too Americanised.
Bet your ass i am. You people are full off mishaps and cry about it all the time. You're too limpy.

[Viking]

Yes it was, but it was also important not to let half a million Syrians freeze to death in front of a barbed wire fence.

Then we could just place them in warm camps while we sign deals with different Muslim countries where the refugees could be granted permanent citizenship in return for money and/or services from us; or we just keep them there until the return conditions are met in their home countries.


It is not their fault that we failed for decades to weed out the criminals among the immigrants or is it?

In terms of integration, weeding out criminals is not going to help that much.

Though I think it should be pointed out that part of the problem is that some things that are both criminal and considered unacceptable here might not be criminal, or at least not socially unacceptable, in the places where some immigrants come from. Even without this, we'd often (most of the time?) try to weed out those who might break the law in the future (or rather: the ones who are at least this likely to break the law in the future). Good luck with this.



Fixed it. Unless you want to convince me that the far left aka antifa is in favor of being spied upon all the time.

I wasn't talking about those guys (I haven't accused them of rationality at this point). Rather, I was thinking of more...shall we say, ordinary, people - of whom plenty are in favour of mass immigration.

[Fragony]

The rapist

No, but but the one who wants it to be about us being afraid of brownies creeping up on us, yes.

[Greyblades]

He's dead, dummy.

http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/781/383/235.gif

[Myth]

I translated this text from Bulgarian, and I think it's both hillarious and infuriating.

[Montmorency]

I mean that the word multicultural's meaning is so vague and subjective that your statment can be said to be simultaniously right and wrong.

It shouldn't surprise you that many terms in political discourse have many different meanings that are often used to misleading effect. In the post you quoted, then, I'm talking about the specific policies of multiculturalism that were endorsed by Western European governments after WW2 as part of reconstruction of their drained economies and as part of the broader offloading of some authority and responsibility from governments to business and finance. In the last generation, multiculturalism was co-opted by what Frag used to call (though he dropped it in the past year or so) "Cultural Marxists" who saw it not as an idea justifying the import of foreign labor, but as a sound and desirable ethical principle on its own. Those paleo-rightists who both resented globalized economics and the left-spectrum generally then associated "multiculturalism" with certain leftist groups and leftist social academics because by then the leftists were the only ones who bothered to mention the term.


I think your trouble is that you write like a university student attempting to gain extra credit through rarely used words and long-winded writing patterns.

I usually write on a secondary-school level. In fact, this is basically like my day-to-day speech.


Combined with a habit of failing to connect your rebuttle with the post you are responding to and you have freqently become outright incomprehensable.

When I am giving a specific response to a specific sentence, I do it precisely and step-by-step. But this approach is infrequent in life outside of formal debate settings, since usually people in discussions bring in relevant ideas and arguments rather than lines that are explicitly tailored to a single other line or set of lines, and irrelevant or incomprehensible outside that context.

TLDR: Stop being so self-centered and try to follow what people are actually talking about rather than expecting people to limit themselves only to what little substance you yourself have posted about your own understanding, or otherwise to hold your hand.


I quoted the same source and you said that I was wrong in identifying apposition. If Chancellor in Chancellor Merkel welcomed the refugees is not an apposition, then do tell me what part of the sentence it is.

Apposition involves two separate units with a coreferent. The appositive unit may or may not be necessary in the structure of the utterance. For a phrase like "I would like to honor my favorite poet, Burns, by reading his...", the semantic content can be described abstractly like "I would like to honor A, A, by reading A's..."

For phrases like "Ms. Smith" or "Chancellor Merkel", there is no apposition since both the title and the name are mutually-necessary in combining to form a single unit, rather than two distinct ones. This is the case for any title that is not an actual position or status, but purely a form of address.

Such honorifics can only be involved in apposition indirectly:

1a. I would like to introduce the (German) Chancellor, (Chancellor) Merkel, as the speaker tonight.
2a. I would like to introduce a very important lady, (Ms./Mrs./Dr./Chancellor) Merkel, as the speaker tonight.

The two underlined parts are both in apposition to "(Chancellor) Merkel", and you can include or exclude the title next to "Merkel" as you like, but you cannot by definition create an appositive relationship between "Merkel" and the bolded title thus. Notably, in Sentence 1a "Chancellor" can be involved in apposition in to "Merkel", but only in the instance where it is part of the distinct unit "the (German) Chancellor", and not when it is forming a unit with "Merkel".

Also, if someone is addressed with multiple titles, like "His Majesty King of Swatesia, Lord of all Elephants, Conqueror of the Aphorites...", then the titles can be described as in apposition to each other.

The point is basically that it is not possible for a title standing alone to be in apposition to a name in a format like "TITLE-ENTITLED", because this format creates a single identifying unit and for apposition you need two distinct identifying units with, as per Wiki, "one element serving to identify the other in a different way".

[Montmorency]

Rulebreaking

That was probably the only element of the wild tale worth correcting. What off-the-mark rubbish.

Also, host that image on your own space, it's clogging my intertubes.

[Husar]

I translated this text from Bulgarian, and I think it's both hillarious and infuriating.

Oh, now I get it, you can compare Bulgaria with Saudi Arabia because they are on a similar moral level. For a minute here I thought it was saying that Britain had a similar human rights approach as SA and it was therefore meant to be a valid comparison. My mistake.

[Husar]

Then we could just place them in warm camps while we sign deals with different Muslim countries where the refugees could be granted permanent citizenship in return for money and/or services from us; or we just keep them there until the return conditions are met in their home countries.

That might be feasible if the conflict in their home countries could be reasonably said to be over soon. Keeping people in "temporary" camps for 5+ years may not be the best idea however.


In terms of integration, weeding out criminals is not going to help that much.

Though I think it should be pointed out that part of the problem is that some things that are both criminal and considered unacceptable here might not be criminal, or at least not socially unacceptable, in the places where some immigrants come from. Even without this, we'd often (most of the time?) try to weed out those who might break the law in the future (or rather: the ones who are at least this likely to break the law in the future). Good luck with this.

Well, with proper integration, fewer of them may turn into criminals in the first place. At the moment they're not allowed to do anything for several months after arrival, unemployment etc. can drive people crazy, especially if it made them go on a crazy journey in the first place in the hopes of getting a job. One idea I liked was that they will be instructed upon arrival that the German courses are mandatory, that they have to take care of their homes here, including cleaning the toilets etc. and are required to do certain community work in return for the shelter etc. they receive here. Failure to comply would lead to a swift deportation.

Deportation is difficult because deportation to a war zone is illegal, but then again if you actually did deport them to Syria, maybe fewer north africans would claim to be from there and then misbehave...

As for weeding out future misbehavers, you usually do most of that by integrating them properly as said above.

And yes, this is hard to do because we already create more poor of our own every year whom we slowly disintegrate from our own society, that doesn't make it easier to integrate new poor people as there are no jobs etc. to be taken.
Then again, if the world were a fair place, maybe they'd see no need to migrate here in the first place.

[Myth]

Your weak attempts at wounding my (non existent) sense of national pride are pitiful and will not work on me young padawan.

I think it's a very good piece of satire that highlights some of the issues faced by your very own countrymen. And it also shows that if the situations were inverse the muslim/arabic world would not show europeans the same kind of benevolent tolerance.

Can I grab a group of 50 25 year old christian males and go and demand democracy and women in bathing suits in Saudi Arabia? No, we'd probably get beheaded. Then why is the opposite tolerated and any who voice against it branded islamophobes and whatnot?

[Husar]

I think it's a very good piece of satire that highlights some of the issues faced by your very own countrymen. And it also shows that if the situations were inverse the muslim/arabic world would not show europeans the same kind of benevolent tolerance.

And that is why they are usually criticized by all the liberal leftist human rights organizations, no?
Isn't it the more conservative side that is usually so enraged about them potentially hurting the feelings of our most valuable allies?
When our tank export to SA was stopped, people were angry about the potential for job losses because "someone else will sell them the tanks instead anyway". The wonders of market liberalism that also fights for personal liberalism. You can't have your cake and eat it, too.


Can I grab a group of 50 25 year old christian males and go and demand democracy and women in bathing suits in Saudi Arabia? No, we'd probably get beheaded. Then why is the opposite tolerated and any who voice against it branded islamophobes and whatnot?

What exactly is the opposite and why do you want my/your country to be more like a christian/atheist version of Saudi Arabia?

[Pannonian]

And that is why they are usually criticized by all the liberal leftist human rights organizations, no?
Isn't it the more conservative side that is usually so enraged about them potentially hurting the feelings of our most valuable allies?
When our tank export to SA was stopped, people were angry about the potential for job losses because "someone else will sell them the tanks instead anyway". The wonders of market liberalism that also fights for personal liberalism. You can't have your cake and eat it, too.

What exactly is the opposite and why do you want my/your country to be more like a christian/atheist version of Saudi Arabia?

At least my position is consistent then. I don't criticise the Saudis on their human rights record, other than being thankful that I live here and not over there. And I have no tolerance of anyone arguing that we should go softly on their disciples over here. The scumbags who advocate Islamism here should be expelled, if they are citizens of another country, or marginalised, if they're not. But bleeding heart liberalism is a self-inflicted wound. Asymmetrical debate occurs when two sides argue according to certain principles, but only one side practically abides by them.

Also, personal liberalism is separate from free market capitalist liberalism, at least in England. The Levellers were communists.