IMMIGRATION thread

[Greyblades]

It shouldn't surprise you that many terms in political discourse have many different meanings that are often used to misleading effect. In the post you quoted, then, I'm talking about the specific policies of multiculturalism that were endorsed by Western European governments after WW2 as part of reconstruction of their drained economies and as part of the broader offloading of some authority and responsibility from governments to business and finance. In the last generation, multiculturalism was co-opted by what Frag used to call (though he dropped it in the past year or so) "Cultural Marxists" who saw it not as an idea justifying the import of foreign labor, but as a sound and desirable ethical principle on its own. Those paleo-rightists who both resented globalized economics and the left-spectrum generally then associated "multiculturalism" with certain leftist groups and leftist social academics because by then the leftists were the only ones who bothered to mention the term.
Aside from being mildy interesting to hear once again what you think multiculturalism means, I am left wondering at the near alien thought process that gives such responses to what I write. I was not disputing what was being said I was commenting on the futility of arguing the meaning of a term that was vague to begin with and now is so disputed as to mean wildly different things to many different people.


I usually write on a secondary-school level. I admit I was being a bit overly generous when I implied university level writing but I wouldnt go that far.


In fact, this is basically like my day-to-day speech. Why does that not surprise me.


When I am giving a specific response to a specific sentence, I do it precisely and step-by-step. But this approach is infrequent in life outside of formal debate settings, since usually people in discussions bring in relevant ideas and arguments rather than lines that are explicitly tailored to a single other line or set of lines, and irrelevant or incomprehensible outside that context.

TLDR: Stop being so self-centered and try to follow what people are actually talking about rather than expecting people to limit themselves only to what little substance you yourself have posted about your own understanding, or otherwise to hold your hand.

So let me get this straight; you cant differentiate between more that one interlocutor besides yourself and need to impose a general overarching argument on everyone who contributes to the conversation on an opposing side, regardless of if they actually agree with that argument or not.

Additionally you are occasionally incapable of framing your individual posts to conform with the direction the conversation was going, to the point where instead of saying something along the lines of "I was thinking about what you were saying earlier and this is what I think" you just blurt out what you have to say with little regard of what was said before or how jarring and confusing the transition is and how much it impares any attempt to respond to it.

...I dont know if that is 100% accurate but it's certainly the only explanation I can think of that makes sense with both what you just said and your behavior previously.
I must admit I can sympathise with the former, threads do get confusing after a month or so, keeping track of who said what becomes confusing especially when they use the same avatars. Once or twice I have found myself mixing up you and pannonian, gets embarrasing quickly.

[Greyblades]

That was probably the only element of the wild tale worth correcting. What off-the-mark rubbish.

Also, host that image on your own space, it's clogging my intertubes.
What are you running on, dial up? Fine, here's the same point for the previous generations.

http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/992/401/e37.png

[Sarmatian]

I think it's a very good piece of satire that highlights some of the issues faced by your very own countrymen. And it also shows that if the situations were inverse the muslim/arabic world would not show europeans the same kind of benevolent tolerance.

So, we throw out civilized behaviour, everything we've achieved as a society and adopt social norms based on lowest possible value.


Can I grab a group of 50 25 year old christian males and go and demand democracy and women in bathing suits in Saudi Arabia? No, we'd probably get beheaded. Then why is the opposite tolerated and any who voice against it branded islamophobes and whatnot?

Who said the opposite is tolerated?

You, and many others, are seeing imaginary threats, just because refugees are muslims.

[Sarmatian]

No, because one is a government policy and the other is a personal wardrobe choice.

Multiculturalism is a fundamentally contradictory policy - on the one hand incomers are not required to integrate, on the other the host culture is expected to adapt to the immigrants.

This breads resentment, which breeds Fascists.

If there weren't any black people, racism wouldn't exist.

[Pannonian]

So, we throw out civilized behaviour, everything we've achieved as a society and adopt social norms based on lowest possible value.

Who said the opposite is tolerated?

You, and many others, are seeing imaginary threats, just because refugees are muslims.

See the :daisy:s who were born here, were raised here at state expense, who exploit our history of religious tolerance to push for Islamism. And see those uber-liberal idiots who argue that it's all our fault and none of theirs, because they're somehow discriminated against by society (even though their parents who weren't born here don't feel the same way that they do).

[Pannonian]

If there weren't any black people, racism wouldn't exist.

If there is any wrong in the world, it is the fault of the Anglo-Americans. Or so I keep getting told.

[Husar]

See the :daisy:s who were born here, were raised here at state expense, who exploit our history of religious tolerance to push for Islamism. And see those uber-liberal idiots who argue that it's all our fault and none of theirs, because they're somehow discriminated against by society (even though their parents who weren't born here don't feel the same way that they do).

And that means we should strive to be more of a dictatorship like Saudi Arabia and make life hell for their parents, too?

[Pannonian]

And that means we should strive to be more of a dictatorship like Saudi Arabia and make life hell for their parents, too?

I concur with that jihadist's dad who said his son was a traitor to his country (UK).

[Husar]

If there is any wrong in the world, it is the fault of the Anglo-Americans. Or so I keep getting told.

Not quite, the Americans used to be fine and noble people, it's just too bad that most of them were genocided and replaced by the Anglos. ~;)

[Montmorency]

No, Greyblades, those images seem to be hosted on Reddit (or Reddit is an intermediary).

Long-standing ORG rules against hotlinking are that all posted images must be off your own bandwidth, whether the forum-provided attachment space or some third-party hosting site.

You're lucky I didn't condemn you to Beskar.

[Montmorency]

"Anglo" is an offensive term that whitewashes English diversity and its ancient history. At least use "Angloid" or something.

[Greyblades]

Wow. That has gotta be the most obscure and unenforced rule ever.

Seriously ive been posting these images for years, several of them beskar thanked. It's never come up.

[Montmorency]

Well, to tell the truth -

I've posted a couple of hotlinked images myself over the years. :hide:

I was only told of once, though.

[Sarmatian]

If there is any wrong in the world, it is the fault of the Anglo-Americans. Or so I keep getting told.

I'm really getting the feeling you're tilting at windmills with this one. What I said had nothing to do with that at all. Why is this such a recurring theme with you?

[Sarmatian]

See the :daisy:s who were born here, were raised here at state expense, who exploit our history of religious tolerance to push for Islamism. And see those uber-liberal idiots who argue that it's all our fault and none of theirs, because they're somehow discriminated against by society (even though their parents who weren't born here don't feel the same way that they do).

They are discriminated against for the most part, but that doesn't justify their behaviour.

I've faced discrimination when I was traveling around western Europe in the second half of the nineties. It was mostly benign and small scale but it was noticeable, and enough to make me uncomfortable. And I was only traveling around as a tourist, so I tried and for the most part succeeded in ignoring it, but maybe it wouldn't have been so easy if I was facing it everyday for a prolonged period of time.

So, those are two separate issues. A country shouldn't be blamed for failed individuals. It depends on the country, of course, but most western countries care about the people. That doesn't mean that countries shouldn't try ever harder to help integrate people into society.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

If there weren't any black people, racism wouldn't exist.

There would be no racism is we were all Latin-speaking Romans.

Construction of national identity around physical similarities is a relatively modern phenomenon - language and religion are the more historical markers of a particular "people".

[Pannonian]

They are discriminated against for the most part, but that doesn't justify their behaviour.

I've faced discrimination when I was traveling around western Europe in the second half of the nineties. It was mostly benign and small scale but it was noticeable, and enough to make me uncomfortable. And I was only traveling around as a tourist, so I tried and for the most part succeeded in ignoring it, but maybe it wouldn't have been so easy if I was facing it everyday for a prolonged period of time.

So, those are two separate issues. A country shouldn't be blamed for failed individuals. It depends on the country, of course, but most western countries care about the people. That doesn't mean that countries shouldn't try ever harder to help integrate people into society.

The problem makers are young and born here. As youngsters, they'll have faced discrimination for being young. This has happened in every society in history, and is why older societies make much of the coming of age when they can start becoming useful members of society. Within their age group, they'll have faced discrimination because, well, kids are arseholes who will pick on anyone and everyone. Other than that, unless they impose their differentness on other people, they would likely have faced no more than reasonable discrimination that is the hallmark of an individual-based society (oxymoronic though that term is). Their parents, who were more alien to the host culture, don't feel unreasonably discriminated against. Why are they, the second generation, complaining about that to the point of turning against their home country? And why should we feel any guilt about it? After all, we didn't fail their parents.

[Beskar]

Long-standing ORG rules against hotlinking are that all posted images must be off your own bandwidth, whether the forum-provided attachment space or some third-party hosting site.

Seriously ive been posting these images for years, several of them beskar thanked. It's never come up.

The biggest reason for the rule was because when bandwidth was a premium for website hosting, if you hot-linked a picture, they used to re-direct it to explicit material to discourage you. So lets say GB posted a harmless picture about bunnies and hot-linked it, he would see the bunnies do the saved local copy in his cache, but us who didn't see it on the source site would see your worse nightmare in explicit poses.

That said, Mont is correct that imgur.com is the recommended website for linking to pictures from (which I use myself). It does get enforced from time-to-time, but usually only because it comes up with things like "STOP HOTLINKING US" picture, or the above.

[Tuuvi]

There would be no racism is we were all Latin-speaking Romans.

Construction of national identity around physical similarities is a relatively modern phenomenon - language and religion are the more historical markers of a particular "people".

Yea as far as I know, our modern concept of race was constructed during the colonial era as a justification for the trans-Atlantic slave trade.

[Husar]

"Anglo" is an offensive term that whitewashes English diversity and its ancient history.

Good. ~;)

[Greyblades]

So what do you think did more damage: the event or the attempts at downplaying/covering up?

[Husar]

So what do you think did more damage: the event or the attempts at downplaying/covering up?

Damage to whom or what? And how does one measure the amount of damage? In Euros, in persons or in political influence of people, parties or groups? And why would this be important? Do I need to choose a wrong? The German public had a lot of criticism for both.

[Greyblades]

Ah, sorry, I used "damage" as a euphamism for outcry. Which peeved off the german people/media more?

[Fragony]

Looks like the Germans will have to pay extra for gassoline because of the messias-complex of the childless mutti. Yeah it costs money quelle surprise mon dieux brrrr wir brrr schaffen das

[Husar]

Looks like the Germans will have to pay extra for gassoline because of the messias-complex of the childless mutti. Yeah it costs money quelle surprise mon dieux brrrr wir brrr schaffen das

That is wrong on several levels:

1) "Looks like" suggests that it is almost certain, it was so far just an idea that was immediately criticized by a lot of people.
2) You suggest Merkel is to blame but the idea came from our minister of finance Wolfgang Schäuble. He has crazy ideas once in a while.
3) Ahahaha, Germans? He suggested an EU-wide tax on gasoline...

[Husar]

Ah, sorry, I used "damage" as a euphamism for outcry. Which peeved off the german people/media more?

I think the act itself, but the police chief of Cologne has already stepped down for downplaying it IIRC.
I suppose people are more concerned about actually getting hurt than about politicians who lie.

[Viking]

That might be feasible if the conflict in their home countries could be reasonably said to be over soon. Keeping people in "temporary" camps for 5+ years may not be the best idea however.

That's why we could also buy citizenship for the migrants in other countries and deport them there. That way, the camps could be depleted gradually.

If that doesn't work out, we can make the peace in their home country instead of waiting for it, and then deport. Repeat as necessary, until they realise they shouldn't be fighting each other.


Well, with proper integration, fewer of them may turn into criminals in the first place.

That "proper integration" may itself be impossible was my initial point.


At the moment they're not allowed to do anything for several months after arrival, unemployment etc. can drive people crazy, especially if it made them go on a crazy journey in the first place in the hopes of getting a job. One idea I liked was that they will be instructed upon arrival that the German courses are mandatory, that they have to take care of their homes here, including cleaning the toilets etc. and are required to do certain community work in return for the shelter etc. they receive here. Failure to comply would lead to a swift deportation.

Many or most jihadists and terrorists from the West were born with Western citizenship, they didn't have to wait for anything.

[Montmorency]

we can make the peace in their home country instead of waiting for it

UN occupation is a pleasing idea in theory. While we're at it, can we please exchange Eastern Ukraine for Neo-Prussia? We shouldn't tolerate that sore thumb on the Baltic anymore.

[Fragony]

I think the act itself, but the police chief of Cologne has already stepped down for downplaying it IIRC.
I suppose people are more concerned about actually getting hurt than about politicians who lie.

Shit never flows down except in toilets. It's the childless mother who's responsible.

Wir schaffen das, yeah.

Dumb face holding two dead eyes.

[Montmorency]

Shit never flows down except in toilets. It's the childless mother who's responsible.

Wir schaffen das, yeah.

Dumb face holding two dead eyes.

I liked it better when you blamed the menagerie.

[Fragony]

I liked it better when you blamed the menagerie.

I don't know what menagerie means, new word for me. First time I type it just now

edit, a collection of animals to to be showed to the public says internet. I could go for that really and get stranded so I won't just dismiss it outright as it being an invalid accusation/suggestion, but I would like something a little more substantial to respond to. And not in a longwinded post, tree sentences are enough to make a point if you have one.

[Montmorency]

noun
1.
a collection of wild or unusual animals, especially for exhibition.
2.
a place where they are kept or exhibited.
3.
an unusual and varied group of people.

You know, the stories about the ferrets and owls and waiters - almost like a fairytale!

https://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr309/desertSypglass/photo.jpg

[Fragony]

noun
1.
a collection of wild or unusual animals, especially for exhibition.
2.
a place where they are kept or exhibited.
3.
an unusual and varied group of people.

You know, the stories about the ferrets and owls and waiters - almost like a fairytale!

https://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr309/desertSypglass/photo.jpg

Don't bother I already looked it up, I am not good at English and you shouldn't expect me to be as I am not English, I am Dutch. I don't ask you to explain what you mean in English when it comes to language, I ask what you are implying

[Fragony]

That is wrong on several levels:

1) "Looks like" suggests that it is almost certain, it was so far just an idea that was immediately criticized by a lot of people.
2) You suggest Merkel is to blame but the idea came from our minister of finance Wolfgang Schäuble. He has crazy ideas once in a while.
3) Ahahaha, Germans? He suggested an EU-wide tax on gasoline...


The open visitation of the childles mutti to have all little childrsn coms to her is absolutily to blame. Germany as a whole is beause they allowed someone who is clearly relgiously insane to be pllaying with buttons. All established respect is lost, and I thank the childless mutti for that as I hate everything the EU stands for.

[Montmorency]

What does the EU stand for?

[Fragony]

What does the EU stand for?

A fourth reich, Forget it, not gonna happen. It's not just about trade anymore it's a very expensive meddling overhead that only serrves to make sure Juncker gets his cognac with his breakfast. We can do just fine without the EU we don't need it. Eurocrats keep screaming Europe but Europe isn't the same thing as the EU. They have no argument.

[Gilrandir]

Apposition involves two separate units with a coreferent.


This! And the referent for both is the SAME PERSON THEY DENOTE! So "poet Burns" identifies the person by his name and his occupation. In "Chancellor Merkel" - by position and name. In "Ms Merkel" - by (wrong) marital status and name.

And you never ascribed a syntactic function to what you deny in being an apposition.


There would be no racism is we were all Latin-speaking Romans.


Did they treat all people the same irrespectively of their skin color and nationality?

[Gilrandir]

It depends on the country, of course, but most western countries care about the people.

And people are expected (and in most cases they do) to answer in kind. But you defend the same attitude to those who abide by rules and laws and those who don't.



2) You suggest Merkel is to blame but the idea came from our minister of finance Wolfgang Schäuble. He has crazy ideas once in a while.


Isn't she responsible for hiring him? If she still has him on her team she supports him, huh?

[Montmorency]

In "Ms Merkel" - by (wrong) marital status and name.

"Ms." is not the same reference as either "Merkel" or "Ms. Merkel" unless used as a vocative. However, "Ms. Merkel" does have the same referent as "Merkel", either alone or attached to any other title...

What you are saying would have "the poet" as an appositive phrase in which "the" identifies the person by their - something - and "poet" identifies status of poet . And this way, you would overload "the" with so much meaning as to denote literally everything real simultaneously. In the same vein, "That stupid Merkel says wir schaffen das" would then involve apposition between "stupid" [the stupidity of Merkel] and "Merkel" [the Merkel of Merkel].

What you do would collapse language by draining all nouns of meaning and placing that meaning with noun modifiers and functional elements.

I think the logical conclusion of this discussion is that you are an extraterrestrial and have failed in your mission to surveil hoomans by making a telltale slip. In the words of our God-Emperor:


an immigrant leaves his problems behind, a colonist takes it along.


And you never ascribed a syntactic function to what you deny in being an apposition.


For phrases like "Ms. Smith" or "Chancellor Merkel", there is no apposition since both the title and the name are mutually-necessary in combining to form a single unit, rather than two distinct ones. This is the case for any title that is not an actual position or status, but purely a form of address.

Such honorifics can only be involved in apposition indirectly:

1a. I would like to introduce the (German) Chancellor, (Chancellor) Merkel, as the speaker tonight.
2a. I would like to introduce a very important lady, (Ms./Mrs./Dr./Chancellor) Merkel, as the speaker tonight.

The two underlined parts are both in apposition to "(Chancellor) Merkel", and you can include or exclude the title next to "Merkel" as you like, but you cannot by definition create an appositive relationship between "Merkel" and the bolded title thus. Notably, in Sentence 1a "Chancellor" can be involved in apposition in to "Merkel", but only in the instance where it is part of the distinct unit "the (German) Chancellor", and not when it is forming a unit with "Merkel".

Also, if someone is addressed with multiple titles, like "His Majesty King of Swatesia, Lord of all Elephants, Conqueror of the Aphorites...", then the titles can be described as in apposition to each other.

The point is basically that it is not possible for a title standing alone to be in apposition to a name in a format like "TITLE-ENTITLED", because this format creates a single identifying unit and for apposition you need two distinct identifying units with, as per Wiki, "one element serving to identify the other in a different way".

[Papewaio]

This! And the referent for both is the SAME PERSON THEY DENOTE! So "poet Burns" identifies the person by his name and his occupation. In "Chancellor Merkel" - by position and name. In "Ms Merkel" - by (wrong) marital status and name.

And you never ascribed a syntactic function to what you deny in being an apposition.

Did they treat all people the same irrespectively of their skin color and nationality?

Actually in the west their has been a feminist initiative to use Ms as equivalent as Mr. So it is used regardless of marital status in a lot of social interactions.

[Brenus]

That is it. I am deeply offended by err…. Let me time to remember. Ah, yes. I have deeply offended by a religious remark about atheists.
Let me explain: For X-mas, as nothing better was on TV, I watched Bear Grylls and Obama walking in the forest/tundra/taiga of Alaska (me think). The Obama’s survival path was going well and chit chat about various themes like ecology and others topics…
Near the end, Bear Grylls wanted to pray with Obama. All right, I though, I know Grylls is quite a religious guy, and even if I think Obama is a secret atheist, let pass on this. I am always uncomfortable when politic mixes with religion, we are not in Iran or Saudi Arabia. Yet. Then, Bear had this remark: There is no atheist is a fox hole.
I find it offensive.
First, how does he know? Does he really believe that, because circumstances, an atheist will suddenly find that a man in the sky will help? Somehow, it is as well offensive for the believers…
Second, atheists can believe and find strength in front of deadly events in some others earthly belief, as the number of communists in front of Nazi firing squads proved it: Manouchian Michel, in his last letter to his wife: I will die with 23 comrades soon, with the courage and serenity of a man with a good conscience, as I hurt no one, and if I did, I did it without hate. Today, it is a sunny day. Watching the sun and this nature I loved so much, I will say good bye to life…
Al least a good third of the French soldiers in the front lines in 1914-1918 was atheist, and no one recorded a massive conversion at these times.

And then, I realised that, in his own admission, the believers are still in the fox hole, so apparently belief that their deity/ies is/are not enough to make them safe.

But, as it is fashion now for religious people to be offended, I decided I would be too.
:yes:

[Fragony]

Why make a fuss about it, do as you please.I am not religious but I don't have to make a point out of it, I am nothing at all. People who call themselves athiests seem to have this guilty pleasure in mocking people who are religious, what good does that do

[Brenus]

Why? Quite easy...
Religious people makes claim as "atheist can't have moral", or "can't face death bravely" and all others kind of silly things. Religious people put a judgement on none-religious and it looks like it is acceptable.
However, atheist can't "offend" religious people, because, for the most majority of them, it is not nice to "offend", and for few fanatic it is worth death.
So I decided to be offended too.:yes:

[Fragony]

Why be offended by something something that doesn't harm you? Let them think what they want, best to just neglect it. Why make a point out of not being religious? Calling yourself an athiest is too much credit imho. Live and let live, I only think in moral and immoral, why care about what doesn't harm you? I also think it's stupid but so what really

edit, you are going to love this https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B09dKTRT89RDYTEyOTU3OGItODFjZC00N2E2LWEyNmMtY2Y3NTFiNTk3MDQw/view?pli=1

[Husar]

Isn't she responsible for hiring him? If she still has him on her team she supports him, huh?

Should she fire everyone for the slightest disagreement with her? Is this another episode about her being just like Hitler?

[Fragony]

Should she fire everyone for the slightest disagreement with her? Is this another episode about her being just like Hitler?

She certainly is the most disruptive since. And she looks like him by the way, maybe the rumours that she is Hitler's biological daughter are true

In any case, Germany disrupts everything for the third time in just a century

[rvg]

Actually in the west their has been a feminist initiative to use Ms as equivalent as Mr. So it is used regardless of marital status in a lot of social interactions.

Yep. Saves me from potentially getting it wrong when addressing a lady.

[Fragony]

Getting it wrong is a bigger problem in Dutch (also in German, du and sie), there is 'u' the polite form, and 'jij' the informal form. You never know when you are doing it wrong. I always use the polite form if I don't know someone who is somewhat above my age but that isn't apreciated either often because it's too formal. Yoy English speakers got it easy, 'you' will always do

[Montmorency]

And she looks like him by the way

Do all "squareheads" look alike to you?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

*Shrug*

Go on, be like the Evangelicals, as unreasonable as an iron pot.

The comment is very widespread, and widely believed, even by many atheists.

It's not to say that Atheists suddenly find religion, but that your belief in absolutely no higher power what so ever is unlikely to hold up under repeated bombardment. There are very few people, when being bombed, or shot at, or hanging off a cliff, who won't say "Oh God, please let me live through this."

Saying you'd never be that person is exactly like a Christian saying he'll never have a crisis of faith.

[Beskar]

"Oh God, please let me live through this."
Saying you'd never be that person is exactly like a Christian saying he'll never have a crisis of faith.

That is because people want magical solutions to a problem. Because they feel out of their depth, would be great for magic man to come down and make things right.

But he won't, because he cannot, because there is no magic man, only the harsh reality.

Nothing wrong with hoping and wishing for such things, but unfortunately, it is not the reality we live in.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Did they treat all people the same irrespectively of their skin color and nationality?

By and large, if you wore a toga and could speak and read Latin you were Roman. culture and loyalty to the state were more important than place of birth and the colour of your skin/hair/eyes. Remember, from a Roman perspective red hair was "Gaulish" so a black man from Africa was less of a difference to them than it was to us - they were used to categorising people into tribes and then larger groups but they didn't see these homogeneous nation-states we pretend to see, they had greater variety and ad-mixing.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

That is because people want magical solutions to a problem. Because they feel out of their depth, would be great for magic man to come down and make things right.

But he won't, because he cannot, because there is no magic man, only the harsh reality.

Nothing wrong with hoping and wishing for such things, but unfortunately, it is not the reality we live in.

Yeah, I'd like to see you say that under your breath when someone's holding you at gunpoint.

People are what people are winging about it is infinitely more childish than any belief in a "magic man".

People believe in all sorts of stupid things, like multiculturalism or communism.

[Montmorency]

"Oh God, please let me live through this."

Most atheists - indeed most Westerners in general - would admit to reacting like this even from mild inconvenience, such as a difficult commute.

It is no more significant than a Jew using "Jesus Christ!" as an interjection.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Oh - by the by.

The Germans are issuing special ID cards for immigrants now and immigrant men have been banned from a pool near Cologne until they learn to behave like proper Germans.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35326090

So now we see The Reaction, the Germans were too nice and now all the migrants will be tarred with the same brush and treated as "sub German" because their culture is inferior to German culture.

A few years ago people might have said "but African women don't complain about being propositioned in public".

[rvg]

So now we see The Reaction, the Germans were too nice and now all the migrants will be tarred with the same brush and treated as "sub German" because their culture is inferior to German culture...

Halleluya! It is so nice to see the common sense prevail. Remember kids, don't post this.

[Greyblades]

They say there are no athiests in foxholes because few men are unwilling to try anything to survive a world erupting around them.

In extreme stress a human being will cling to any small hope of survival, regardless of thier belief under ordinary circumstances, and what is god but hope?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Most atheists - indeed most Westerners in general - would admit to reacting like this even from mild inconvenience, such as a difficult commute.

It is no more significant than a Jew using "Jesus Christ!" as an interjection.

Never heard of a Jew saying "Jesus Christ" any more than a Muslim.

This brings us to the topic of Christian atheists vs Jewish atheists vs lapsed Catholics.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

And if they're too dangerous just put them down, right?

Germany is edging closer to a Pogrom and this whole mess could have been avoided if they had just started flying people back to their country of origin.

[Greyblades]

So now we see The Reaction, the Germans were too nice and now all the migrants will be tarred with the same brush and treated as "sub German" because their culture is inferior to German culture.

Careful now, we dont want to offend the cultural relativists, they might cry.

[rvg]

And if they're too dangerous just put them down, right?
Not here.


Germany is edging closer to a Pogrom and this whole mess could have been avoided if they had just started flying people back to their country of origin.
The best way of avoiding that mess would have been to keep the EU borders locked in the first place, but no, the eurocrats just had to conduct an experiment with multiculturalism. Well, there you have it. removed.

[Montmorency]

Never heard of a Jew saying "Jesus Christ" any more than a Muslim.

I have Americans of any religious or non-religious orientation use "Jesus Christ!" or "For Christ's sake!" Most of those who don't seem in fact to be those Christians who still get worked up over "taking the Lord's name in vain".

[Fragony]

Same. I am not going to say 'I told you so' because as usual when they get everything wrong the gutmensch just doesn't want to talk about it anymore.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

America is a strange place that makes no sense.

[Papewaio]

Yeah, I'd like to see you say that under your breath when someone's holding you at gunpoint.

People are what people are winging about it is infinitely more childish than any belief in a "magic man".

People believe in all sorts of stupid things, like multiculturalism or communism.

I can point to multiculturalist countries, I cannot point to any proof in any God.

Believing in the Chrisitian God is the same as believing in Thor, faeries at the bottom of the garden, Unicorns, Luke Skywalker, Cpt Kirk. Just because people want something doesn't make it true. Believing in something under duress is about as honest as signing a contract under the same conditions: invalid.

It is up to the believers to show concrete repeatable proof in the fae.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I didn't say it proved God existed - I just said that it's not unreasonable to say "There are no Atheist in Foxholes" at least whilst under fire.

I can't point to a single Multiculturalist countries, I can point to countries that host multiple cultures but in every case the boundaries between cultures produce friction - in a Multi-Cultural society they wouldn't.

Me - I'm not saying Unicorns and Fairies don't or didn't exist - although down here we call them Piskies.

You can't trust them.

[Papewaio]

Multicultural societies exist in the world. I didn't add a condition that it has to be thriving.

Otherwise you would have to say no totalitarian or facist or communist countries exist because they aren't the best ones either.

[Gilrandir]

Should she fire everyone for the slightest disagreement with her? Is this another episode about her being just like Hitler?

You claimed that he is prone to do such things once in a while. If he doesn't stop doing this it means that either she doesn't mind or she is a lousy boss. Either conclusion doesn't reflect a great credit upon Frau Kanzlerin.

[Gilrandir]

"Ms." is not the same reference as either "Merkel" or "Ms. Merkel" unless used as a vocative. However, "Ms. Merkel" does have the same referent as "Merkel", either alone or attached to any other title...

What you are saying would have "the poet" as an appositive phrase in which "the" identifies the person by their - something - and "poet" identifies status of poet . And this way, you would overload "the" with so much meaning as to denote literally everything real simultaneously. In the same vein, "That stupid Merkel says wir schaffen das" would then involve apposition between "stupid" [the stupidity of Merkel] and "Merkel" [the Merkel of Merkel].



Apposition is not always a phrase (it usually is when it is detached).
From https://vk.com/doc8069473_229802203?hash=c941e549142a2d677d&dl=9dcc890754f556bc39 (p. 305-306):

§ 31. An apposition is a special kind of attribute which is expressed by a noun (with or without accompanying words) which characterizes or explains the word modified by giving the person or thing another name. There are two kinds of apposition, the close apposition and the loose or detached apposition.

§ 32. The close apposition.
A close apposition is not separated by commas and stands in close connection with the word modified. These word-groups generally consist either of the name of a person and a noun denoting a title, rank, profession, or the name of a person and a noun denoting relationship, or a geographical name and some common noun, e. g. Professor Brown, Captain Marryat, Aunt Polly, President Roosevelt, etc.

Even Aunt Ann was there. (Galsworthy)
Professor Sommerville practised what he preached. (Carter)

In these word-groups the noun modified is the name of a person or a geographical name, the first component is a common noun in apposition.

N o t e. — In case the common noun is preceded by a possessive or a
demonstrative pronoun, it becomes more important and acquires a stronger
stress. Consequently the relation between the components of the word group
is reversed. The first component is modified by the name of a person or a
geographical name which is an apposition:

That boy Peter has a literary turn of mind. He is sure to become a writer.

Sometimes the apposition consists of the preposition of + noun, e. g. the town of Daventry, the city of London.

§ 33. The loose or detached apposition.
A loose apposition is not so closely connected with the noun. It is always separated by commas and has a stress of its own.

Dr. Winchcliffe, my predecessor, was a classmate of my father’s. (Sanborn)
With her elder and younger sisters she lived now in the house of Timothy, her sixth and youngest brother, on the Bayswater Road. (Galsworthy)


And from http://www.alleng.ru/d/engl/engl159.htm (p. 264-265):
Types of connection between an apposition and its headword

§ 91. From the point of view of their relation to the headword, appositions, like attributes, are subdivided into non-detached (close) and detached (loose) ones.

Non-detached appositions

§ 92. Non-detached appositions form one sense group with their headword and very often enter into such close relation with it that the two words form one whole. This is especially true in the case of titles, military ranks, professions, kinship terms, geographical denotations, etc., used as apposition.

Sir Peter, Mr Brown, Doctor Watson, Colonel Davidson, Uncle Podger, Mount Everest, the River Thames.

Being very closely connected with each other such appositions and their headwords may be treated as indivisible word-groups.

Detached appositions

§ 93. Detached, or loose appositions form separate sense groups and are wider in their meaning than close appositions: they may give identification, explanation, etc., especially when referring to pronouns. They may follow the headword immediately or be separated from it.

He actually envied Jolyon the reputation of succeeding where he, Soames, had failed.
Cooper was three inches taller than Mr Warburton, a strong, muscular young man.

An apposition may also refer to a clause or a sentence, usually as an explanatory remark.

The night was muggy, a bit drizzly, windless, and very dark - the ideal conditions for a gas bombardment.



I think the logical conclusion of this discussion is that you are an extraterrestrial and have failed in your mission to surveil hoomans by making a telltale slip.

I see.

There is a famous (in the former USSR) satirist Mikhail Zhvanetsky (from Odesa). In one of his monologues he said: "The behavior of our (i.e. Soviet) person in a dispute is not countering the arguments of your opponent, but looking him up and down. When you are done with it you go: How can a bald man with such a nose express any opinion on the ingenious skills of Herbert von Karajan? He must correct his nose, grow some hair and only then have his say".

I doubt you have heard this piece, but your ingenuity is in inadvertantly (or intentionally) following the same tactics. Carry on dude.


Actually in the west their has been a feminist initiative to use Ms as equivalent as Mr. So it is used regardless of marital status in a lot of social interactions.

According to PFH, in the UK the said status determines the way the woman is addressed (especially when you are aware of this status, as was the case with Merkel).


By and large, if you wore a toga and could speak and read Latin you were Roman. culture and loyalty to the state were more important than place of birth and the colour of your skin/hair/eyes. Remember, from a Roman perspective red hair was "Gaulish" so a black man from Africa was less of a difference to them than it was to us - they were used to categorising people into tribes and then larger groups but they didn't see these homogeneous nation-states we pretend to see, they had greater variety and ad-mixing.

I find it hard to believe that the inhabitants of newly conquered lands received the same treatment as those of the core Roman provinces, still less that slaves of all races were treated equally (bad). Generally, earlier civilizations were xenophobic (even the enlightened Greeks scornfully called the ousiders Barbarians). Thus, the idea of the golden epoch of racial equality seems highly doubtful to me.

[Gilrandir]

Perhaps, Canada has more common sense in its refugees policy:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-refugee-plan-women-children-families-1.3330185

[Gilrandir]

Second, atheists can believe and find strength in front of deadly events in some others earthly belief, as the number of communists in front of Nazi firing squads proved it: Manouchian Michel, in his last letter to his wife: I will die with 23 comrades soon, with the courage and serenity of a man with a good conscience, as I hurt no one, and if I did, I did it without hate. Today, it is a sunny day. Watching the sun and this nature I loved so much, I will say good bye to life…


The husband of my grandmother's sister was at war. It was astonishing for him how many would be atheists (including him) in the Red army prayed before an offensive. So



There are very few people, when being bombed, or shot at, or hanging off a cliff, who won't say "Oh God, please let me live through this."


Moreover, for the Soviet pople at that time there was an alternative God - Stalin. They believed in Communism that was like a paradise and often died shouting "For the Motherland! For Stalin" So they were believers of a kind.




But, as it is fashion now for religious people to be offended, I decided I would be too.


Same old story. One doesn't have to be religious to be offended at some things which he deems above criticism or even discussion (like mother for blacks).


Why? Quite easy...
Religious people makes claim as "atheist can't have moral", or "can't face death bravely" and all others kind of silly things. Religious people put a judgement on none-religious and it looks like it is acceptable.


Again too general a claim. You can't make conclusions about ALL religious people, neither can you speak for ALL atheists. For example, many Soviet atheists were good at killing priests and destroying buildings of great architectural and historic value (aka churches). Do you side with them?

[Husar]

You claimed that he is prone to do such things once in a while. If he doesn't stop doing this it means that either she doesn't mind or she is a lousy boss. Either conclusion doesn't reflect a great credit upon Frau Kanzlerin.

Why if noone usually goes along with those ideas?

[Gilrandir]

Why if noone usually goes along with those ideas?

If a minister comes up with one crazy idea after another AND NO ONE GIVES A :daisy:, it means that he is a buffoon but his boss doesn't mind. A buffoon's boss is the circus director, not the Prime Minister.

[Fragony]

Do all "squareheads" look alike to you?

Well she isn't one, she was born in Hamburg, and moved to the DDR later, where she became a stasi, codename 'Erica'

[Husar]

If a minister comes up with one crazy idea after another AND NO ONE GIVES A :daisy:, it means that he is a buffoon but his boss doesn't mind. A buffoon's boss is the circus director, not the Prime Minister.

"he has strange ideas once in a while" <> "he has one crazy idea after another"

[rory_20_uk]

A plan to help integrate people into UK society as all of a sudden it has been noticed that 22% of all Muslim women in the UK speak no to little English Link (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-35338413); those who marry and fail to improve their english after 2 1/2 years well... something might happen.

Frankly the whole thing seems too little and way to late to me. Does anyone think that £22 million is really enough to resolve this problem, or is it merely the usual "paying for headlines" to target key demographics who they think are more likely to vote based on this

~:smoking:

[Gilrandir]

"he has strange ideas once in a while" <> "he has one crazy idea after another"

Unfortunately, you didn't specify how often is "once in a while". Yet, even if it turns out more seldom than average, it is still not prudent for a boss to have an employee who may suddenly go off his chump (and at a most unsuitable moment too).

[Snowhobbit]

Uhm... Is deporting people for not speaking English really a good choice? How about if UK starts with deporting terrorists and terror cells? I wonder if UK will get into more trouble with the ECHR?
Also, you already have to pass an English test before being allowed to move to the UK as a spouse. So how is this even an issue?

[Fragony]

22% isn't that bad really, even pretty good

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

It equates to most of a generation, it's pretty bad.

The big thing is they've changed the law so that you have to prove you know English before you can come join your spouse now.

This bit on the people already living here is just the tail end of the change.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I find it hard to believe that the inhabitants of newly conquered lands received the same treatment as those of the core Roman provinces, still less that slaves of all races were treated equally (bad). Generally, earlier civilizations were xenophobic (even the enlightened Greeks scornfully called the ousiders Barbarians). Thus, the idea of the golden epoch of racial equality seems highly doubtful to me.

The Romans were not without prejudice, but it was not racial prejudice as we understand it.

It's important to understand that, for people in ages past, physical appearance was not understood as it is now.

[Pannonian]

It equates to most of a generation, it's pretty bad.

The big thing is they've changed the law so that you have to prove you know English before you can come join your spouse now.

This bit on the people already living here is just the tail end of the change.

We should recognise an Islamist country somewhere which will be the default state that British Islamists will be assigned to when they're stripped of UK citizenship. Sort of like a modern version of transportation.

[Fragony]

We should recognise an Islamist country somewhere which will be the default state that British Islamists will be assigned to when they're stripped of UK citizenship. Sort of like a modern version of transportation.

Strip every chance on getting welfare if someone choses to be unfit for work. Much better, it's what they came/come for. They'll leave/stay away if they can't get it.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

We should recognise an Islamist country somewhere which will be the default state that British Islamists will be assigned to when they're stripped of UK citizenship. Sort of like a modern version of transportation.

No, we really shouldn't - your last sentence should tell you that.

We cannot revert to 19th Century policies because we no longer have a 19th century country, or military.

It's like saying we should re-annex Hong Kong.

[Husar]

Unfortunately, you didn't specify how often is "once in a while".

:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

Nice try but that doesn't excuse that you thought it means "one after another"...
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/de/worterbuch/englisch/every-once-in-a-while


Yet, even if it turns out more seldom than average, it is still not prudent for a boss to have an employee who may suddenly go off his chump (and at a most unsuitable moment too).

Tell that to the banks, none of whose bosses were punished in any way for the last crisis they caused, or for laundering terrorist money or anything like that. Yet here we are arguing over semantics because a politician uttered a silly tax idea...

[Montmorency]

Non-detached appositions

§ 92. Non-detached appositions form one sense group with their headword and very often enter into such close relation with it that the two words form one whole. This is especially true in the case of titles, military ranks, professions, kinship terms, geographical denotations, etc., used as apposition.

Sir Peter, Mr Brown, Doctor Watson, Colonel Davidson, Uncle Podger, Mount Everest, the River Thames.

This is what you seem to base your understanding on for the context of the disagreement here, but as it turns out contemporary English-language treatments take apposition rather differently (in terminology and substance) from Soviet general grammar texts.


the gradient between apposition and premodification
is a complex gradient: while the extremes of this gradient are
easy to identify, intermediate cases have "fluid boundaries" (Bell
1988:330). At the modification end of the gradient are "institutionalized"
titles (Quirk et al. 1985:1319), expressions such as President or Professor
which precede a proper noun. Titles are typical premodifiers because they
are structurally dependent on a head: they cannot stand alone (example
136c) or follow the head noun that they modify (example i36d).

(136a) The board of regents of Paris Junior College has named Dr. Clarence Charles Clark of Hays, Kan. as the school's new president. (Brown A02 1530-50)
(136b) ...has named Charles Clark...
(136c) *... has named Dr
(i36d) #...has named Charles Clark, Dr



As the examples in this section illustrate, the main difference between
apposition and premodification is the extent to which the first unit of the
construction is structurally dependent on the second unit. If the units are
in apposition, they will be structurally independent; if one unit modifies the
other, only the head (and not the modifier) can stand alone and reversal of
the units is not possible.


Ambiguities between apposition and coordination result because it is
sometimes difficult to distinguish between apposition and asyndetic
coordination. In examples 126 and 127, the juxtaposed constructions are
syntactically quite similar because each satisfies criteria 1—3:

(126a) But the head of department is a little bit idiosyncratic, an awfully nice chap. (LLC s.1.6 218-21)
(126b) But the head of department is an awfully nice chap.
(126c) But the head of department is a little bit idiosyncratic.
(i26d) But the head of department is an awfully nice chap, a little bit idiosyncratic.

(127a) The address was in the Holborn district; it sounded shabby, dismal. (SEU w.16.1.19-1)
(127b) ...it sounded dismal.
(127c) ...it sounded shabby.
(i27d) ...it sounded dismal, shabby.

Semantically, however, the units are quite different. In example 127, shabby
and dismal are in apposition because they are synonymous, a semantic
relationship existing in other kinds of appositions (3.1.2.1). In example 126,
on the other hand, an awfully nice chap and a little bit idiosyncratic are not
synonymous. Consequently, in this construction, we have asyndetic
coordination rather than apposition.

[Viking]

Germany is edging closer to a Pogrom [...]

I don't imagine that a "progrom" style riot is possible without a state that is either a) weak (at least locally), or b) indifferent..

Ethnic tensions may rise, though; certainly (including more violence).

[Pannonian]

No, we really shouldn't - your last sentence should tell you that.

We cannot revert to 19th Century policies because we no longer have a 19th century country, or military.

It's like saying we should re-annex Hong Kong.

As it is, these traitors from within are taking advantage of liberal policies to argue their case whilst denying their practice from their own perspective. Asymmetric debate occurs when both sides argue using a premise, but only one side takes it seriously. If these people deny a common state to the point of using or supporting the use of force against it and its citizens, we're better off without them, and we should facilitate their exit from the country which they hate so much. From a liberal perspective that supports democracy and self-determination, it's the most lenient way of giving both sides what they want: they can have their Islamist state, while we can have the rule of the people.

[Gilrandir]

We cannot revert to 19th Century policies because we no longer have a 19th century country.

It's like saying we should re-annex Hong Kong.

Let me introduce to you one man. His name's Putin. Vladimir Putin. He may tell you a lot on the issue.

[Gilrandir]

This is what you seem to base your understanding on for the context of the disagreement here, but as it turns out contemporary English-language treatments take apposition rather differently (in terminology and substance) from Soviet general grammar texts.

The sources cited deal with RELATIONS between certain parts of the sentence (admitting apposition as one of them). By the way, an attempt to differentiate between apposition and premodification as relations is very inadequate. Premodification means any type of relations in which the dependent element comes before the head-word. So it is the criterion of FORM. Apposition (as a relation) and coordination as defined in the sources you cite deal with MEANING.

But whatever the drawbacks of those definitions might be, we here spoke not of RELATIONS, but of GRAMMATICAL CONSTRUCTION or even a single part of the sentence (similar to attribute) the definition of which you referred to in the wikipedia article and which is described in the sources I cited.

[Montmorency]

Apposition (as a relation) and coordination as defined in the sources you cite deal with MEANING.

But whatever the drawbacks of those definitions might be, we here spoke not of RELATIONS, but of GRAMMATUCAL CONSTRUCTION the definition of which you referred to in the wikipedia article and which is described in the sources I cited.

So you still don't see how you are contradicting yourself and the cited materials?

Modification is not a subset of apposition, nor are they synonymous.

[Gilrandir]

Nice try but that doesn't excuse that you thought it means "one after another"...
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/de/worterbuch/englisch/every-once-in-a-while



OK. Let me put it this way: one after another at some (often quite longish) intervals.



Tell that to the banks, none of whose bosses were punished in any way for the last crisis they caused, or for laundering terrorist money or anything like that. Yet here we are arguing over semantics because a politician uttered a silly tax idea...

Banks are private enterprises and their misdemeanors and felonies are to be punished according to the criminal law.

The politician in question committed nothing of the kind, he just blurted out some crackpot idea of his, so his punishnemt (if any) should be political, and it is to be executed by his political/party boss.

[CrossLOPER]

Let me introduce to you one man. His name's Putin. Vladimir Putin. He may tell you a lot on the issue.
Did he reach Kiev yet?

[CrossLOPER]

How do you publicly shame someone for Xing in an X culture? Does the culture suffer from a lack of self-confidence? Are you referring to a subculture within a larger culture?
Don't think about it too hard; he certainly didn't.

I am not good at English
You've only been using it for at least 15 years, so I don't know how you can be any good. He's not using "big words" to scare you off.

[Beskar]

Did he reach Kiev yet?

He wasn't too fond of the Chicken Kiev, so he is getting ready to baste the Turkey.

[Fragony]

It's ok to be ok in English, I can manage. I make mistakes, so what.

[Husar]

Banks are private enterprises and their misdemeanors and felonies are to be punished according to the criminal law.

The politician in question committed nothing of the kind, he just blurted out some crackpot idea of his, so his punishnemt (if any) should be political, and it is to be executed by his political/party boss.

Well, here is Merkel's approval rating and that of Horst Seehofer from the Bavarian CSU (they are like the bavarian part of the CDU although technically a different party, don't ask me about specifics)

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CTHVr1PWUAAhGz4.jpg

[Gilrandir]

Well, here is Merkel's approval rating and that of Horst Seehofer from the Bavarian CSU (they are like the bavarian part of the CDU although technically a different party, don't ask me about specifics)

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CTHVr1PWUAAhGz4.jpg

How does it bear on Merkel-and-her-minister discourse?

[Gilrandir]

Did he reach Kiev yet?

If you were attentive, you could have noticed that my remark referred to a country leader using XIXth century politics and annexing parts of other countries. Or does the fact of Putin not having reached something excuse/cancel everything else he has done (and is still doing)?

[Husar]

How does it bear on Merkel-and-her-minister discourse?

Why does anything matter?

[Husar]

If you were attentive, you could have noticed that my remark referred to a country leader using XIXth century politics and annexing parts of other countries. Or does the fact of Putin not having reached something excuse/cancel everything else he has done (and is still doing)?

Everything is excused because he did not reach the goals you set for him.

[Myth]

So, any new rapes in Germany lately?

[Fragony]

So, any new rapes in Germany lately?

Police isn't allowed to report them in Germany, Collogne got a bit too big. Been plenty all over Europe, the little children of the childless mutti are to her astonishment not behaving all that well. I envisiion her laying in her bed with an iceback on her head muttering 'wir schaffen das... wir.. schaffen...das'

[Husar]

So, any new rapes in Germany lately?

Most likely according to Pape's (or any other) statistics. Why do you ask?


Police isn't allowed to report them in Germany

Where do you always get this bullhonkey from?
There are apparently cases of no or underreporting but how can you say everything is swept under the rug when politicians of the current government openly talk about it on TV? I guess mr De Maiziere has been fired already for disobeying Merkel since we all know that nothing in Germany is done without her approval and she wants this swept under the rug. :dizzy2:

Or how about we you stop with the dramatic, exaggerating blanket statements?

[Greyblades]

https://youtu.be/OjkUVJ3E2Uw

[Gilrandir]

Everything is excused because he did not reach the goals you set for him.

If a racist wishes to kill all blacks and doesn't reach his goal, does it make him less racist?

[Gilrandir]

So you still don't see how you are contradicting yourself and the cited materials?

Modification is not a subset of apposition, nor are they synonymous.

The sources you cite try to draw the line between apposition and (pre)modification. It is nonsense. Apposition (as a grammatical construction) may stand in pre-position (premodifying the antecedent) and post-position (post-modifying the antecedent). But it doesn't change its NATURE.
The classification that your sources offer reminds me the classification of animals in one old Chinese "encyclopaedia". According to it all animals are divided into embalmed ones, suckling piglets and those that belong to the emperor.

[Fragony]

Most likely according to Pape's (or any other) statistics. Why do you ask?



Where do you always get this bullhonkey from?
There are apparently cases of no or underreporting but how can you say everything is swept under the rug when politicians of the current government openly talk about it on TV? I guess mr De Maiziere has been fired already for disobeying Merkel since we all know that nothing in Germany is done without her approval and she wants this swept under the rug. :dizzy2:

Or how about we you stop with the dramatic, exaggerating blanket statements?

German police said so themselves.

[Sarmatian]

German police said so themselves.

Really? Suddenly an unsourced, off the record statement by a few unnamed police officers on social media is "German police said so"?



Or how about we you stop with the dramatic, exaggerating blanket statements?

If he could do that, he wouldn't be a bigot.

[Sarmatian]

If a racist wishes to kill all blacks and doesn't reach his goal, does it make him less racist?

I'm gonna go full Tribesman on this

:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

[Fragony]

Hey, I am a bigot in your eyes anyway so there's nothing to gain, seek sources yourself

[Montmorency]

The sources you cite try to draw the line between apposition and (pre)modification. It is nonsense. Apposition (as a grammatical construction) may stand in pre-position (premodifying the antecedent) and post-position (post-modifying the antecedent). But it doesn't change its NATURE.
The classification that your sources offer reminds me the classification of animals in one old Chinese "encyclopaedia". According to it all animals are divided into embalmed ones, suckling piglets and those that belong to the emperor.

The Meyer classification gives the characteristics of apposition and formally distinguishes them from other grammatical relations. The classification you favor is, like what, that all animals are divided into - animals? That isn't much of an insight into the nature of animals.

Perhaps this overview diagram from Meyer will help:

17335

Also, here's (http://www.lotpublications.nl/Documents/294_fulltext.pdf) a recent full treatment that also uses Dutch as a case language, though it's even further from your preference than my previous reference, Meyer.


(4) a. My brother Peter is still at college.
b. My brother, Peter, is still at college.

(5) a. The poet Pushkin was born in Moskow.
b. The poet, Pushkin, was born in Moskow.

The restrictive example (4a) suggests that the speaker has several brothers and picks
out the one called Peter. In the appositive variant (4b), however, the anchor refers to
only one brother and the apposition just adds that this brother is called Peter.
Similarly, in the restrictive (5a), the poet Pushkin can be used to introduce someone
the speaker did not know before, whereas the poet in itself does not have a referent
yet. In (5b), on the other hand, a poet must have been introduced in the previous
discourse. Therefore, the poet directly refers to this person and the apposition just
adds that his name is Pushkin

Though almost everyone mentions both close and loose apposition
nowadays, the main focus is on the loose, or non-restrictive, construction. This
construction is usually taken as apposition proper. In the common view, loose and
close apposition are not considered two variants of one construction, but two
different constructions with a different structure and meaning. Still, a relatively new
work like Meyer (1992) views the two as just two classes of the same grammatical
phenomenon. However, I think that close and loose apposition do not only differ in
intonation and meaning, but also in structure.

To highlight the difference in perspectives then, "the poet Burns/Pushkin" is not considered appositive here.


Taking the arguments above into account, together with the clear difference in
intonation and meaning, I conclude that close and loose appositions are structurally
different constructions. I therefore exclude the restrictive construction from the class
of appositions. For more details on the restrictive construction, I refer to De Vries
(2008a), who analyses most of its subtypes as attributive modifying direct speech. In
the rest of this thesis, I will only be concerned with the non-restrictive variant.


As we saw above, an appositional construction conveys its own proposition,
separate from the main proposition. The next question is then how this proposition is
built from the underlying structure. The first step in answering this question is to
show that appositions have the properties of nominal predicates, not of arguments.


Doron’s third argument to analyze appositions as nominal predicates is
based on the possibility for some nominals to appear without an article in predicate
position. Whereas this possibility is rather restricted in English, bare nominals as
predicates are quite common in many other Germanic and Romance languages (De
Swart et al. 2007). These predicates usually relate to capacities like professions,
religions, nationalities and titles. Here are some Dutch examples, illustrating that
bare nominals occur in appositions and in predicate positions, but not in argument
positions. Note that (46c) and (47c) would be acceptable in newspaper headlines,
where determiners are often left out. Such telegram style writing is irrelevant for our
purposes, however.

(46) a. Drs. Mallebrootje, uitvinder van de automatische [Dutch]
MA Mallebrootje inventor of the automatic
appositieontleder, doet mee aan de verkiezingen.
apposition.analyser does with at the elections
‘Mallebrootje MA, the inventor of the automatic apposition analyser,
takes part in the elections.’

b. Drs. Mallebrootje is uitvinder.
MA Mallebrootje is inventor
‘Mallebrootje MA is an inventor.’

c. * Uitvinder doet mee aan de verkiezingen.
inventor does with at the elections
Intended: ‘An/The inventor takes part in the elections.’

(47) a. Hadassa, jood van geboorte, eet geen varkensvlees.
Hadassa jew of birth eats no pork
‘Hadassa, a jew by birth, does not eat pork.’

b. Hadassa is jood van geboorte.
Hadassa is jew of birth
‘Hadassa is a jew by birth.’

c. * Jood van geboorte eet geen varkensvlees.
jew of birth eats no pork
Intended: ‘A/The jew by birth eats no pork.’



Hey, I am a bigot in your eyes anyway so there's nothing to gain

'Hey, I am a negro in your eyes anyway so there's nothing to gain'

I think this is an important and revealing juxtaposition, especially as it relates to the "pluralism saturation" I discussed earlier.

[Beskar]

youtube

It is a decent opinion piece. I learnt a new word, Taharrush. Reminds me of similar incidents that have happened in Japan where they do it on trains (for example). Group of people do a wall on a carriage, isolating a woman, then assault her.

[Montmorency]

It is a decent opinion piece. I learnt a new word, Taharrush. Reminds me of similar incidents that have happened in Japan where they do it on trains (for example). Group of people do a wall on a carriage, isolating a woman, then assault her.

In Korea, they call it "Zerg Rush". :tomato:

[Fragony]

What's so nice about racism that you need to exist it Monty, comfort zone?. Didn't know you are black, don't care either

[Montmorency]

None of that has anything to do with the post.

[Greyblades]

What's so nice about racism that you need to exist it Monty, comfort zone?. Didn't know you are black, don't care either

"Exist it"?

[Beskar]

"Exist it"?

I think he needs to means "experience it", or "What's so nice about racism is that it only there because the reasons exist"

[Husar]

"Exist it"?


I think he needs to means "experience it", or "What's so nice about racism is that it only there because the reasons exist"

I assumed it is "that you need it to exist", basically saying that Monty wants there to be racism so he can get some kind of advantage from it. Too bad that he himself took Monty's made-up "quote" literally and assumed that Monty is black. Although of course it still works for Fragony if Monty is not black because then he can just accuse him of multiculturalist dhimmitude or bleeding heart liberalism wanting to feel bad about himself. At this point I have probably said something that offends someone myself because I'm a horrible person and I hate myself and want to feel guilty about something because I'm so liberal. :clown:

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

It is a decent opinion piece. I learnt a new word, Taharrush. Reminds me of similar incidents that have happened in Japan where they do it on trains (for example). Group of people do a wall on a carriage, isolating a woman, then assault her.

it's worth noting that a lot of the pieces he references are from the first week or so after the attacks, before we knew the majority of the attackers thus far identified were recent immigrants from the North African and Levantine "refugee" nations.

So, essentially, he has more information available to him than the Feminists he lambastes.

With that said, however, he is exactly right when he attacks them for conflating "Feminism" and Marxist social thought. Feminists should not necessarily defend minority groups, now should they be concerned with racism or post-Colonialism due to their being Feminists.

The suggestion from British feminists that Germany is a "rape culture" is, from what I know, quite ignorant because it specifically isn't in the same way Scandinavia isn't, more advanced socially than the US and even the UK.

By contrast, most Arab nations are rape cultures, or contain rape sub-cultures. I had to live with a Syrian at one point in university housing. In the end we got him thrown out because he and his friends were a bunch of disgusting animals. They smoked Pot, played Dubstep at all hours at insane volumes, literally lived in filth and the girls in the flat didn't feel safe. I remember being in the corridor once and hearing one of his friends say, out loud "shock her! Rape her!". It was something about a girl he wasn't getting on with - the response stuck with me.

[Montmorency]

With that said, however, he is exactly right when he attacks them for conflating "Feminism" and Marxist social thought. Feminists should not necessarily defend minority groups, now should they be concerned with racism or post-Colonialism due to their being Feminists.

One of the cruxes of contemporary feminism is "intersectionalism", meaning they view all the familiar 'isms' as being interlinked, or even fundamentally the same phenomenon. Moreover, contemporary feminism in the world - including in the United States - draws mostly from post-war Continental philosophy, which on its own developed various elements of old-school Marxist thought in ways that the old-school Marxists themselves disliked (and still disagree with, wheresoever they remain).

In other words, you are out of touch. The classical (now "conservative") feminism you have in mind is overshadowed by the dominance of post-modernists.

[Gilrandir]

The Meyer classification gives the characteristics of apposition and formally distinguishes them from other grammatical relations.


I encountered different classification of grammatical relations within a sentence which divided them all into parataxis, hypotaxis (which includes what Meyer terms complementation, modification, apposition and so on) and predication. So it is a matter of taste.

BUT once again, I spoke not of RELATIONS, but of a SENTENCE PART. The same relations may connect different sentence parts. For example, the relation of coordination/parataxis may connect homogeneous subjects, predicates, objects, etc.



To highlight the difference in perspectives then, "the poet Burns/Pushkin" is not considered appositive here.


Those excerpts that you cite seem to expose total agreement between my and Meyer's opinion on apposition AS A SENTENCE PART, since he (she?) considers both Burns/Pushkin examples the cases of apposition.


As for a different perspectives, I absolutely agree with the wording NOW. We should have spoken about PERSPECTIVES, or VIEWS of the phenomenon in which case such words as "wrong" or "invalid" are not applicable.



I had to live with a Syrian at one point in university housing. In the end we got him thrown out because he and his friends were a bunch of disgusting animals. They smoked Pot, played Dubstep at all hours at insane volumes, literally lived in filth and the girls in the flat didn't feel safe. I remember being in the corridor once and hearing one of his friends say, out loud "shock her! Rape her!". It was something about a girl he wasn't getting on with - the response stuck with me.

Now you will see something like "it's a separate/nonsymptomatic case that proves nothing" as a response.

[Greyblades]

One of the cruxes of contemporary feminism is "intersectionalism", meaning they view all the familiar 'isms' as being interlinked, or even fundamentally the same phenomenon. indeed, that mode of thought is generally responsible for several ideological splits.

The Internet athiesm community did not weather intersecionality well; internet community leaders and forum admin started demanding followers conform to otherwise unrelated ideological standards of behavior and ended up driving away a majority of thier membership


In other words, you are out of touch. The classical (now "conservative") feminism you have in mind is overshadowed by the dominance of post-modernists.

Which is one of the reasons more and more people refuse to identify as feminists, moving on to more classical terms like egalitarian.

[Greyblades]

Oh good... its not like I cant read german or anything.

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.welt.de%2Fprint%2Fwams%2Fhamburg%2Farticle151089911%2FIch-halte-es-nicht-mehr-aus.html

[Husar]

http://www.welt.de/print/wams/hamburg/article151089911/Ich-halte-es-nicht-mehr-aus.html

The reactionaries gaining power is preferable to giving into these unwashed masses.

Bring on the fascism.

There need to be execution rooms at every immigration place.
But we have been pussified by all the luxury from America, we used to live from iron and steel but now we get US-engineered plastic phones from China that do all the work for us and we look at so many photos and videos of kittens on them that we just ARE the victim culture some of these immigrants take us for.

Kill them all and let god sort them out. :sweatdrop:

[Pannonian]

indeed, that mode of thought is generally responsible for several ideological splits.

The Internet athiesm community did not weather intersecionality well; internet community leaders and forum admin started demanding followers conform to otherwise unrelated ideological standards of behavior and ended up driving away a majority of thier membership

Which is one of the reasons more and more people refuse to identify as feminists, moving on to more classical terms like egalitarian.

It's a common theme among the different mainstream political movements/philosophies in the UK that they make their greatest demands on themselves (per individual), whilst respecting the right of others to disagree. Hence you have that arch-Tory, the Duke of Wellington, advising fellow aristocrats to do their utmost for the country before assuming the right to put themselves about, and that arch-socialist George Orwell admitting that the English nobility, if nothing else, are singularly enthusiastic about putting themselves in the position of greatest danger. In more recent times the most hardline socialists of the Labour party were usually on good terms with the most conservative Tories of the Conservative party. It's the hardline neo-liberals who scream "Me me me" (epitomised by Thatcher) and the monolithic tendencies of fringe groups on the left and right whom I despise. Both impinge on the principle that's one's rights end where those of others begin. You want rights? What are your responsibilities? Why aren't you taking on more?

[Montmorency]

In the same vein, I can appreciate this sentiment:


You want rights? What are your responsibilities? Why aren't you taking on more?

[Gilrandir]

Oh good... its not like I cant read german or anything.

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.welt.de%2Fprint%2Fwams%2Fhamburg%2Farticle151089911%2FIch-halte-es-nicht-mehr-aus.html

Maybe it is just me (or my computer, to be precise), but if I open a link with an article in an unknown language I get a small window in the upper right screen corner which offers to translate it into a language from the drop down menu.

[Greyblades]

Its you, I dont get that.

[Pannonian]

Maybe it is just me (or my computer, to be precise), but if I open a link with an article in an unknown language I get a small window in the upper right screen corner which offers to translate it into a language from the drop down menu.

You're probably using Chrome.

[Gilrandir]

You're probably using Chrome.


Is it available in the UK? If it is, teach Greyblades how to use it.

[Greyblades]

I know how to use chrome, I just prefer firefox. Besides, google translate is spotty at best, if you want to be understood use english news sites.

[Pannonian]

I know how to use chrome, I just prefer firefox. Besides, google translate is spotty at best, if you want to be understood use english news sites.

Google Translate is accurate (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYPG155DagM).

[Fragony]

Seems to be reluctantly accepted that it happened all over Germany and Scandinavia, everywhere where the little children the childless mutti reside. 12 were German but are they 'German' or German. Happy carnaval in advance in any case it will be great. Tip in advance for gutmensch, make the problem as broad as possible so you don't have to acknoweldge it, goes like this you start with 'but christians' after that insert [something that's pretty much true]. Works no. Take out your magic wand and cast racismus. A powerfull spell with a negative perk, it gets less effective each time you cast it against rationalitus.

[Husar]

Seems to be reluctantly accepted that it happened all over Germany and Scandinavia, everywhere where the little children the childless mutti reside. 12 were German but are they 'German' or German. Happy carnaval in advance in any case it will be great. Tip in advance for gutmensch, make the problem as broad as possible so you don't have to acknoweldge it, goes like this you start with 'but christians' after that insert [something that's pretty much true]. Works no. Take out your magic wand and cast racismus. A powerfull spell with a negative perk, it gets less effective each time you cast it against rationalitus.

Yeah, on that note:

http://www.zeit.de/politik/deutschland/2015-11/anti-immigrant-violence-germany
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/germany-refugees-hand-out-flowers-women-protest-against-new-years-eve-mass-sex-attacks-1538407
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/cologne-sex-assaults-refugees-attacked-by-mob-german-police-say-a6805531.html
http://edition.cnn.com/2016/01/12/europe/germany-cologne-migrants-tensions/

[Fragony]

The rug jusn't wasn't big enough, it's not that it wasn't tried to keep it as small as possible. Blogs were way ahead as usual. What anonoys me most is that suddenly north-africans are a problem, they had only a minor role. Problems for years nobody wants to talk about. Suddenly they do because the pc-crowd has a bigger problem they don't want to talk about.

[Sarmatian]

they had only a minor role.

Don't tell me. Social Networks?

[Fragony]

Don't tell me. Social Networks?

Does it matter what I tell you , you already made up your mind on what I am. Nothing I say will change that.

[Husar]

The rug jusn't wasn't big enough, it's not that it wasn't tried to keep it as small as possible. Blogs were way ahead as usual. What anonoys me most is that suddenly north-africans are a problem, they had only a minor role. Problems for years nobody wants to talk about. Suddenly they do because the pc-crowd has a bigger problem they don't want to talk about.

Because "es muss sein", the people you hate so much can never possibly get anything right.
There are plenty of north africans who come disguised as Syrians apparently, some even learn to speak with a syrian accent I heard.
What exactly annoys you about that? A north african robbed me once if you remember that, apparently they were a problem before already, politics hardly dealt with it for years because noone cared enough to do anything. Some say they can easily get in contact with established criminals to earn some money and hang out etc. How can that be a good thing?

[Gilrandir]

And Putin, as usual, puts some skin in the game:
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/russia-putins-state-tv-incited-racial-hatred-after-fake-report-girls-rape-by-refugees-1539027

[Fragony]

Because "es muss sein", the people you hate so much can never possibly get anything right.
There are plenty of north africans who come disguised as Syrians apparently, some even learn to speak with a syrian accent I heard.
What exactly annoys you about that? A north african robbed me once if you remember that, apparently they were a problem before already, politics hardly dealt with it for years because noone cared enough to do anything. Some say they can easily get in contact with established criminals to earn some money and hang out etc. How can that be a good thing?

I'll tell my north-african I hate them, but they won't believe me. Got any yourself?

Hooah was here for an evening, he doesn't know he was having drinks with two palestinians, he wouldn't have cared anyway

[Idaho]

English lessons used to be subsidised - but the Tory government cut the funding 6 years ago.

[Husar]

I'll tell my north-african I hate them, but they won't believe me. Got any yourself?

Hooah was here for an evening, he doesn't know he was having drinks with two palestinians, he wouldn't have cared anyway

http://worldwide-tax.com/china/china_tax.asp

[Fragony]

English lessons used to be subsidised - but the Tory government cut the funding 6 years ago.

Almost everyone has internet nowadays, if you want to learn English you can, even if you are chained to the radiator. So why subsidise it. Still think 22% isn't a disaster.

[Fragony]

http://worldwide-tax.com/china/china_tax.asp

I also hate Chinese tax now? Got a bit of a syntax error

[Idaho]

Almost everyone has internet nowadays, if you want to learn English you can, even if you are chained to the radiator. So why subsidise it. Still think 22% isn't a disaster.

That's a ridiculous comment. The kinds of people who can't speak english and live in the UK are the least likely to have internet access, technical know-how and the learning skills to self teach.

[Husar]

I also hate Chinese tax now? Got a bit of a syntax error

Oh come on....

http://rainforest-australia.com/fungi.htm

[Fragony]

That's a ridiculous comment. The kinds of people who can't speak english and live in the UK are the least likely to have internet access, technical know-how and the learning skills to self teach.

Multiple generation that could have learned English had they wanted to before subsidies were cut off, if I find money on the street I pick it up. They don't apparently. They do of course but you probably know what I mean. Can't blame the Tories for making budget cuts on something useless. Demands are much higher (and often unreasoable) here in the Neds if you want to become a Dutch citizen when you are from abroad.

[Fragony]

Oh come on....

http://rainforest-australia.com/fungi.htm

You love mushrooms? Figures. Another syntax-error chez Frag

[rory_20_uk]

That's a ridiculous comment. The kinds of people who can't speak english and live in the UK are the least likely to have internet access, technical know-how and the learning skills to self teach.

The two Eastern Europeans who helped move my furniture managed it. Assuming that others are not imbeciles and have access to the TV, or are able to find a library and the internet there I'm sure they'll cope.

This is of course assuming that they are so poor that paying for internet which starts at less than £5 a month is unthinkable.

Self teach??!? Schools and society teaches English - it takes effort to not learn a new language decade after decade, generation after generation. I've seen a video of a street urchin who can do a sales pitch in over 10 languages - as the incentive is you sell more to Russian tourists if you have the patter in Russian.

But there's always an excuse why people can't be expected to do anything for themselves.

~:smoking:

[Sarmatian]

The two Eastern Europeans who helped move my furniture managed it. Assuming that others are not imbeciles and have access to the TV, or are able to find a library and the internet there I'm sure they'll cope.


It's not the same. It's easier to learn English if you already speak a Slavic language. It is even easier if you speak a Germanic language, and it is much harder to learn English if you speak Arabic.

It would take me much more time to learn Chinese then someone who already speaks Korean, for instance.

[Furunculus]

We should recognise an Islamist country somewhere which will be the default state that British Islamists will be assigned to when they're stripped of UK citizenship. Sort of like a modern version of transportation.

in addition to what FVH said, i dislike the notion that a british born citizen can have that citizenship revoked by the state. it is not the states to take away.

[Pannonian]

It's not the same. It's easier to learn English if you already speak a Slavic language. It is even easier if you speak a Germanic language, and it is much harder to learn English if you speak Arabic.

It would take me much more time to learn Chinese then someone who already speaks Korean, for instance.

It means they'll have to work harder at it. English is further removed from Chinese than from Arabic, but British people don't have much problems with Chinese migrants. Chinese speakers have to work harder at grasping the language than European language speakers, but the first step is adapting to the culture, and they have no problems with that.

[Pannonian]

in addition to what FVH said, i dislike the notion that a british born citizen can have that citizenship revoked by the state. it is not the states to take away.

They don't want to be British. AFAIK US citizenship requires the revocation of other citizenships, and the declaration of loyalty to the US rather than to outside states. We should go for that.

[Fragony]

They don't want to be British. AFAIK US citizenship requires the revocation of other citizenships, and the declaration of loyalty to the US rather than to outside states. We should go for that.

Too much to ask imho. Do as you please as long as it doesn't resonate the wrong way, just never impose anything on me and I am ok.

[Husar]

You love mushrooms? Figures. Another syntax-error chez Frag

Oh, no, not that, I was talking about those elusive people you claim love islamism, think ISIS are misunderstood teddy bears and sweep everything under the rug. Apparently they are so elusive that you assumed I was saying that you hate north-africans.

So why is it a terrible thing to say north africans who cheated to get here cause more problems statistically than people fleeing from the Syrian war?
Nobody is saying your north african is a criminal, they just seem to have a higher percentage who become criminals, it's not even a given that they arrive here as criminals. And according to your own words, people who are not from war zones should not flee here, is Morocco a war zone for you? Could you please explain something for once without using riddles about squirrels and muttis?

[Sarmatian]

They don't want to be British. AFAIK US citizenship requires the revocation of other citizenships, and the declaration of loyalty to the US rather than to outside states. We should go for that.

AFAIK, most European countries do have a similar procedure. You can have only one, unless the countries have special agreement allowing dual citizenship for their citizens.

The problem is that is practically impossible to enforce. You'd need to check and cross reference the entire population of the planet on a regular basis.

Not to mention the problem of someone being name Ahmed Maghrebi in UK, and أحمد المغربي
in Morroco. Or maybe he was transliterated as Achmed or Akhmed...

[Fragony]

The effects of mushrooms must come naturally to you, it doesn't make sense in any way

[Husar]

http://www.immigrationunitedstates.org/products/Double-Citizenship.html


As far as the U.S. is concerned most foreign aliens who become Americans can keep their original citizenship, however their country of origin may not allow double citizenship and they may have to give up their original citizenship. Therefore is very important to check with your country of birth if you can keep your citizenship when becoming American. It is important to consider the pros and cons about dual citizenship carefully before applying for U.S. citizenship.

Not quite, you are expected to swear loyalty to the US but you don't have to give up your former citizenship and can have double citizenship if your old country allows it.

Germany has relaxed the rules a bit, many Turkish people are allowed to keep dual citizenship and becoming a citizen of another EU country or Switzerland does not necessitate the loss of German citizenship anymore.

[Montmorency]

The effects of mushrooms must come naturally to you, it doesn't make sense in any way

:wink3:

[Husar]

The effects of mushrooms must come naturally to you, it doesn't make sense in any way

It does make sense.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/earth/earthnews/8373420/Giant-jellyfish-invade-Japan.html

[Pannonian]

AFAIK, most European countries do have a similar procedure. You can have only one, unless the countries have special agreement allowing dual citizenship for their citizens.

The problem is that is practically impossible to enforce. You'd need to check and cross reference the entire population of the planet on a regular basis.

Not to mention the problem of someone being name Ahmed Maghrebi in UK, and أحمد المغربي
in Morroco. Or maybe he was transliterated as Achmed or Akhmed...

We should at least do our utmost to facilitate the ISIS citizenship of anyone who wants the caliphate on earth. Every time one of these twats appears on TV with a British accent, it just confirms my wish that I don't want them here, which accords with their wish not to be here. And yet this mutually reciprocal wish is denounced as ethically bad.

And that reminds me of another warning sign. Any time anyone changes their name from a western name to a Muslim one, that's a red flag for troublemaking. The times of pacifistic Muslim converts is long past. Anyone who's converted in the last couple of decades is likely to have done so in support of militant Islamism. I'd expect police to be on the lookout for anyone who's converted since 911. I think most of those with a troublemaker's profile won't have an exclusively non-Latinate name, but will have grown up with a Latinate name, whether they are the standard Muslim names, or whether they used to be Joe Bloggs in a previous life.

[Greyblades]

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/286/610/069.gif

The heck are you two talking about?

[Fragony]

Beats me

edit, got, it's what I call typical for deniars of an obvious problem. Let's find the answer in mathematics, chance probability.

If you throw a spear a hundred times it will naturally land on a certain place more, that's the modus, where it doesn't land is the zero on the x-axis, and the formula of substitution comes into effect to see how things go to the y-axis and the y-axis will lower or higher depending on how broad you make the x-axis. That's what deniars of a specific problem like to do, broadening the x-axis to lower the y-axis. A specific problem still exists as long if you don't mess with the x-axis and giant jelliefish and fungus don't changs anything if you keep the x-axis to proven statistics on the zero point of the y-axis.

Apoligista explained with SCIENCE

[Husar]

No, that's not scientific, let me show you:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipe6CMvW0Dg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UV8smP-8FE0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFBZ_uAbxS0

[Fragony]

No, that's not scientific, let me show you:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipe6CMvW0Dg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UV8smP-8FE0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFBZ_uAbxS0

Yes it is, that's what I am talking about, expanding the x-curve of an equation while there it's very specific. Let me show you, this a bell-curve http://math.about.com/od/glossaryofterms/g/Bell-Curve-Normal-Distribution-Defined.htm

remember the example of throwing a spear, depending on your skill and strength makes the modus, which is simply where it lands the most. Ignoring the factors on the x-axes is up to you if you insist to do so, do as you please. I can make an almost perfect calculation of probability if you want me to, including what if's, say 20, 30, 40 whatever. Give me the numbers and I'll do it but not now. If your numbers are wrong so will my calculation be.

[Husar]

Yes it is, that's what I am talking about, expanding the x-curve of an equation while there it's very specific. Let me show you, this a bell-curve http://math.about.com/od/glossaryofterms/g/Bell-Curve-Normal-Distribution-Defined.htm

remember the example of throwing a spear, depending on your skill and strength makes the modus, which is simply where it lands the most. Ignoring the factors on the x-axes is up to you if you insist to do so, do as you please. I can make an almost perfect calculation of probability if you want me to, including what if's, say 20, 30, 40 whatever. Give me the numbers and I'll do it but not now. If your numbers are wrong so will my calculation be.

Ok, 24, 39, 15, 6, still wrong but there are my numbers. Awaiting your results.
On the topic of bell curves though:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCd0OjjCz88

[Fragony]

Ok, 24, 39, 15, 6, still wrong but there are my numbers. Awaiting your results.
On the topic of bell curves though:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCd0OjjCz88

can't do, need a symatratical modus, chance I can calculate from there once I stettled the y-axis zero

[Montmorency]

:weirdthread::Zzzz::Zzzz:

[Husar]

:weirdthread::Zzzz::Zzzz:

Olympics, should be obvious by now.

[Idaho]

The two Eastern Europeans who helped move my furniture managed it. Assuming that others are not imbeciles and have access to the TV, or are able to find a library and the internet there I'm sure they'll cope.

This is of course assuming that they are so poor that paying for internet which starts at less than £5 a month is unthinkable.

Self teach??!? Schools and society teaches English - it takes effort to not learn a new language decade after decade, generation after generation. I've seen a video of a street urchin who can do a sales pitch in over 10 languages - as the incentive is you sell more to Russian tourists if you have the patter in Russian.

But there's always an excuse why people can't be expected to do anything for themselves.

~:smoking:

The hysteria in the media and on these boards is not to do with Eastern Europeans but moooslims and darkies.

So you are saying that we shouldn't implement any policies to improve integration because "they" are too lazy anyhow.

God you lot are depressing.

[rory_20_uk]

The hysteria in the media and on these boards is not to do with Eastern Europeans but moooslims and darkies.

So you are saying that we shouldn't implement any policies to improve integration because "they" are too lazy anyhow.

God you lot are depressing.

No... I am saying that they are more than capable of integrating if they wanted to (and what a large percentage already do).

~:smoking:

[Pannonian]

No... I am saying that they are more than capable of integrating if they wanted to (and what a large percentage already do).

~:smoking:

The worst non-integrators were born here and grew up thoroughly integrated, until that moment when they decided to turn against the UK.

[rory_20_uk]

I agree, but that it a different problem.

There used to be a relatively simple solution - they are traitors and traitors get hung.

~:smoking:

[Sarmatian]

The hysteria in the media and on these boards is not to do with Eastern Europeans but moooslims and darkies.


Absurd. I demand Eastern Europeans be treated with the same amount of contempt.

[Beskar]

I think a certain naughty german is attempting to parody a certain someone else.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Google Translate is accurate (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYPG155DagM).

I'd like to see a human do better.

Run anything through four layers of translation and it'll lose all frame of reference and idiom, and sony lyrics are hellishly difficult to translate.

In other news:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35406436

Denmark will now take everything from migrants but their last 10,000 Kroner, or £1,000.

Congrats Germany, you're off the hook after the Danes decided they needed to pillage all the gold from the vulnerable and desperate - and the narky young men.

[Montmorency]

Don't forget the gold fillings - last generation!

[Greyblades]

Johanne Schmidt-Nielsen, of the opposition left Red-Green Alliance that opposed the bill, said it was "a symbolic move to scare people away".


Earlier this month, Switzerland was criticised by a refugee group for seizing assets from some 100 people in 2015. Under Swiss rules, asylum seekers have to hand over assets above $1,000 (£700; €900).
Well thats one way to weed the economic migrants from the refugees. You'd have to be pretty desperate to submit to that.

[Montmorency]

If you want to scare away "economic migrants", just deny all education and paid labor to asylum seekers. :rolleyes:

[Fragony]

I think a certain naughty german is attempting to parody a certain someone else.

Of course, but something has to be original to be funny, not asolutily normal. In the meantime the centuries old carnaval is cancelled in a lot of German towns because of fear that the childless mutti's little children can't control their primitive lust, Oktoberfest is probably next.

Way to go Germoney

Hussie is probably also going to find it funny when German women's unperpants are litterally torn apart at the towns that still celebrate carnaval. And they will be. These gorgious German women are too confusing for the horde. To the delight of the media twelve of the arrested were German, a pity that they were third generation North-Africans who were born in Germany but hey

[Husar]

Hussie is probably also going to find it funny when German women's unperpants are litterally torn apart at the towns that still celebrate carnaval. And they will be. These gorgious German women are too confusing for the horde. To the delight of the media twelve of the arrested were German, a pity that they were third generation North-Africans who were born in Germany but hey

I'm not a woman, sounds hilarious. #rapeculture

It's offensive to say they were all north africans though.

[Gilrandir]

Now the English can always see who represents a potential threat:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/12118618/Asylum-seekers-forced-to-wear-coloured-wristbands.html

[Fragony]

I'm not a woman, sounds hilarious. #rapeculture

It's offensive to say they were all north africans though.

Not all, the others were Syrian, Afghans, Iraqi's, the great majority were the childless muttils little children. Such a pity for the media that these twelve 'Germans' also had an immigrant background, third generation maroccans.

lalalaaaaaa shutup I can't hearrrrr youuu

[Husar]

lalalaaaaaa shutup I can't hearrrrr youuu

Still in denial I see.

[Greyblades]

It's offensive to say they were all north africans though.

Was that... sarcasm?

[Fragony]

Still in denial I see.

Who me? That's kinda hilarious. The little children of the childless mutti didn't do this just n Collogne, but all over Germoney, also in Scandinavia, Switzerland etc. Tactic is always the same, cut someone of from her group, islolate her, and start groping. Like hyena's do really.

Extra cynical is the newfound focus on north-africans, issues that were known for years. Anything to not having to admit that it were 'refugees' who Merkel invited.

[Husar]

Who me? That's kinda hilarious.

Only kinda? That's offensive.




Tactic is always the same, cut someone of from her group, islolate her, and start groping. Like hyena's do really.

Lions, let me show you:

http://www.compareanimal.com/2014/12/compare-african-lion-vs-hyenas.html


In the hyena clan you will find the female hyenas to be more dominating and active.

See, you have no idea about Africa and Africans so you compare men harassing women to animals where the women are dominant.
Lions are also the kings of the animal kingdom so you're really just grasping at straws here.
Proof: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lion_King


In the Pride Lands of Africa, a lion rules over the animals as king.


Extra cynical is the newfound focus on north-africans, issues that were known for years. Anything to not having to admit that it were 'refugees' who Merkel invited.

Cannibalizing your own point yet again:

To the delight of the media twelve of the arrested were German, a pity that they were third generation North-Africans who were born in Germany but hey

Hilarious indeed, first you claim they were mosltly northern Africans, then you claim it's extra cynical denial to say that.
Your denial is really strong today.

[Pannonian]

Can anyone fill me in on who the childless mutti is/are? Is Frag referring to Merkel, or the migrants?

[Fragony]

Only kinda? That's offensive.





Lions, let me show you:

http://www.compareanimal.com/2014/12/compare-african-lion-vs-hyenas.html



See, you have no idea about Africa and Africans so you compare men harassing women to animals where the women are dominant.
Lions are also the kings of the animal kingdom so you're really just grasping at straws here.
Proof: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lion_King





Cannibalizing your own point yet again:


Hilarious indeed, first you claim they were mosltly northern Africans, then you claim it's extra cynical denial to say that.
Your denial is really strong today.

I did 't say it were mostly north-africans, I said north-africans had a minor role. Your mind is playing tricks on you, you see things that aren't there, look again and blink. Blink, you must

[Fragony]

Can anyone fill me in on who the childless mutti is/are? Is Frag referring to Merkel, or the migrants?

Merkel of course, it's a public secret that she has a messias-complex. Everything will be ok if everybody prays. Her own party even had enough of her. 'little children' is a reference to what Jezus said.

edit, what did I just say, 30 minutes later http://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2016-01-26/bavaria-threatens-merkel-govt-with-lawsuit-over-migrants


And yes it's the same party just not in name. Talk about an untergang of a chancellor

[Fragony]

I don't know what his opinion is so it's impossible to disregard it. But redicule and insinuation is the most noticable weakness of an artful dodger if you are just being reasonable.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

It's useless arguing with Husar because he sees national borders as superfluous.

His opinion should be disregarded.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXCFYdBEin4


The problem with Husar is he'll spend literally pages beating at the same rhetorical joke for his own amusement.

[Husar]

I did 't say it were mostly north-africans, I said north-africans had a minor role. Your mind is playing tricks on you, you see things that aren't there, look again and blink. Blink, you must

No, you didn't, you said they were mostly childless muttis of the refugees with squirrels, then again you never source any of what you say, claiming to rely on super great blogs everyone should find themselves. My blogs say your blogs are wrong though and I know my blogs are better, go look for them if you want to know why. But you can't see what there is not to see with open but closed eyes if your mind is not in the zone of what there is to see with the truth on a silver platter that is really just rotten to the core of what there is not to see because it cannot but must and that is too much.

[Fragony]

No, you didn't, you said they were mostly childless muttis of the refugees with squirrels, then again you never source any of what you say, claiming to rely on super great blogs everyone should find themselves. My blogs say your blogs are wrong though and I know my blogs are better, go look for them if you want to know why. But you can't see what there is not to see with open but closed eyes if your mind is not in the zone of what there is to see with the truth on a silver platter that is really just rotten to the core of what there is not to see because it cannot but must and that is too much.

But of course Hussie. Put on your wizard-hat take your magic wand and cast rediculus. Joke's on you though

[Husar]

of course Hussie

Knew it.

[Fragony]

Knew it.

Of course you do. It's simple, stating facts is a waste of time for a brain that can't proces them. The cognitive dissonation is too strong. Everything I said turned out to be true no, I am just a little faster.

[Montmorency]

The problem with Husar is he'll spend literally pages beating at the same rhetorical joke for his own amusement.

This is true, but over the years I've found that it's really the problem with all of you Backroom regulars. Strike has mentioned a similar sentiment - I know all your flaws too well, and there are fewer and fewer opportunities to absorb anything new.

Of course, I can't have you killed for outliving your usefulness because I have no killers and I have noone to replace you with. :cry:

[Viking]

This is true, but over the years I've found that it's really the problem with all of you Backroom regulars. Strike has mentioned a similar sentiment - I know all your flaws too well, and there are fewer and fewer opportunities to absorb anything new.

Of course, I can't have you killed for outliving your usefulness because I have no killers and I have noone to replace you with. :cry:

The solution to this is to reroute all the migrants to the Backroom. They can live in the Org cloud, or something.

[Husar]

If someone cannot be reasoned with because he repeatedly misreads, makes hardly readable statements and repeats the same things over and over, I figure I might as well have some fun. :shrug:

[Greyblades]

A lack of self awareness seems to be another common problem here.

[Fragony]

If someone cannot be reasoned with because he repeatedly misreads, makes hardly readable statements and repeats the same things over and over, I figure I might as well have some fun. :shrug:

But you aren't having fun, a screen won't stop my senses. Do I need a link for that as well

[Sarmatian]

You know, just once I'd like to see all of you high and mighty be in a situation where your family or your life is threatened and you're forced to leave for some far off land. To travel through sun and rain and snow, to deal with smugglers, robbers, corrupt officials. To be herded like cattle in a fenced off area when you finally arrive. To be subject to contempt and disdain, to threats and physical and mental abuse. And not because you did something to offend someone, purely because you look different or talk differently. No rational reason, just fear, pettiness, ignorance, parochialism.

And trust me, you have no idea how quickly shit can hit the fan.

[Fragony]

You know, just once I'd like to see all of you high and mighty be in a situation where your family or your life is threatened and you're forced to leave for some far off land. To travel through sun and rain and snow, to deal with smugglers, robbers, corrupt officials. To be herded like cattle in a fenced off area when you finally arrive. To be subject to contempt and disdain, to threats and physical and mental abuse. And not because you did something to offend someone, purely because you look different or talk differently. No rational reason, just fear, pettiness, ignorance, parochialism.

And trust me, you have no idea how quickly shit can hit the fan.

And mass sexual assault. This 16 year old girl has something to say to islamapoligists, movie is on top http://www.geenstijl.nl/mt/archieven/2016/01/tell_em_gurl.html#comments

Yeah darling. German men, where are you. Protect your women ffs

[Greyblades]

You know, just once I'd like to see all of you high and mighty be in a situation where your family or your life is threatened and you're forced to leave for some far off land. To travel through sun and rain and snow, to deal with smugglers, robbers, corrupt officials. To be herded like cattle in a fenced off area when you finally arrive. To be subject to contempt and disdain, to threats and physical and mental abuse. And not because you did something to offend someone, purely because you look different or talk differently. No rational reason, just fear, pettiness, ignorance, parochialism.

And trust me, you have no idea how quickly shit can hit the fan.And this life knowledge you apparantly have translates into "we should approve of having foreign people walk into our country en mass"... how exactly?

[Sarmatian]

And mass sexual assault. This 16 year old girl has something to say to islamapoligists, movie is on top http://www.geenstijl.nl/mt/archieven/2016/01/tell_em_gurl.html#comments

Yeah darling. German men, where are you. Protect your women ffs

Youtube videos? Really? Is that the standard now?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uN3EYOk6nA0

Look, they're playing football here.

Oh, and btw, that little brat was the kind of person I had in mind when I wrote the previous post.


And this life knowledge you apparantly have translates into "we should approve of having foreign people walk into our country en mass"... how exactly?

No. You should be petty little bigots. It will probably work out well. Then again, there may be a delicious piece of irony, where you or someone important to you will need help and no one will do anything because it's not their problem. Who knows what the future holds...

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

This is true, but over the years I've found that it's really the problem with all of you Backroom regulars. Strike has mentioned a similar sentiment - I know all your flaws too well, and there are fewer and fewer opportunities to absorb anything new.

Of course, I can't have you killed for outliving your usefulness because I have no killers and I have noone to replace you with. :cry:

Hate to break it to you Monty but you're a Backroom Regular too.

One of us!

One of us!

[Greyblades]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9C4uTEEOJlM


No. You should be petty little bigots. It will probably work out well. Then again, there may be a delicious piece of irony, where you or someone important to you will need help and no one will do anything because it's not their problem. Who knows what the future holds...

Apparantly not wanting to freely let into my country a group of people who have been proven to cause crime increases and major security risks means I'm a bigot.

[Husar]

And mass sexual assault. This 16 year old girl has something to say to islamapoligists, movie is on top http://www.geenstijl.nl/mt/archieven/2016/01/tell_em_gurl.html#comments

Yeah darling. German men, where are you. Protect your women ffs

Nazi videos, great! I'm totally behind you now!

[Fragony]

Nazi videos, great! I'm totally behind you now!

Does that girl look like a nazi to you, reeeefleeeex

lower video comes with a disclaimer, should have mentioned that, lower video is just for article's sake

[Gilrandir]

You know, just once I'd like to see all of you high and mighty be in a situation where your family or your life is threatened and you're forced to leave for some far off land. To travel through sun and rain and snow, to deal with smugglers, robbers, corrupt officials.

Censured.


To be herded like cattle in a fenced off area when you finally arrive. To be subject to contempt and disdain, to threats and physical and mental abuse. And not because you did something to offend someone, purely because you look different or talk differently. No rational reason, just fear, pettiness, ignorance, parochialism.


You forgot to mention what you censured. (Some) refugees at that point start to behave as if they are entitled to choose the country that can harbor them from snow, rain, corrupt officials etc. and abuse the laws of the country they came to and later of the country they were heading to. And it becomes a rational reason for fear, pettiness, ignorance and parochialism.

[Sarmatian]

All so I can stab a woman :2thumbsup:

That is your argument? That there are criminals among them? Yes, there are. There's more than a million of them. It is safe to say that there are terrorist among them, pedophiles, doctors, pacifists. Maybe there's a new mafia boss in there but maybe there's a new Messi, or a new Mother Theresa, a doctor, a fraudulent investment banker...

Take a million of Americans, Brits, Brazilians, Chinese and there will be criminals and murderers among them.



Apparantly not wanting to freely let into my country a group of people who have been proven to cause crime increases and major security risks means I'm a bigot.

Not a bigot, a petty little bigot.

A glorified spoiled brat, with some malicious thoughts and delusions of grandeur. Fragony is a bigot. You'd have to improve to become one.

[Fragony]

If I am a bigot than so are the childles mutti's own party-members, who to put it mildly, don't exactly agree with her immigration policy. I have always been a bigot youknow, the people who called me one are now harsher than I have ever been. Such a shame that Fortuyn was murdered, he could have been our Farrage.

[Myth]

You know, just once I'd like to see all of you high and mighty be in a situation where your family or your life is threatened and you're forced to leave for some far off land. To travel through sun and rain and snow, to deal with smugglers, robbers, corrupt officials. To be herded like cattle in a fenced off area when you finally arrive. To be subject to contempt and disdain, to threats and physical and mental abuse. And not because you did something to offend someone, purely because you look different or talk differently. No rational reason, just fear, pettiness, ignorance, parochialism.

And trust me, you have no idea how quickly shit can hit the fan.

Yeah? Families, fleeing, the same old sob story:

"In Europe, over 800,000 migrants have traveled to Europe by sea in 2015, according to the United Nations refugee agency, and a little over half have come from Syria. About 62% of all migrants that have traveled to Europe this year, however, are men. A little under a quarter, 22%, are children and only 16% are women."

Turns out that more than half are men. Removing the syrians from the equasion (where there is an actual legitimate reason for people to flee), you are left with Algerians, Morrocans, tunisians, Afghans and the like. And most of those are men.

Are they peaceful, humble men who keep a low profile and are grateful for the asylum they've been given? No. They organize themselves in barbaric throngs and harrass and rape western women. The more vocal ones who speak english go and protest, demanding sharia law, halal meat in the cafeterias and burqas for the women so they don't disrupt their delicate self control.

If you remove the rapes and murders commited by ethnic minorities and immigrants in Sweden, you would get a drastiaclly different picture. Heck, just remove Malmo and the equasion is different.

Who were the gropers and assaulters on NYE in Cologne? Were they nazis? Skinheads? Proud aryan men preying on their own women? No. They were "migrants" and second and third generation "migrants" who have not integrated into their host society but instead cause trouble without providing anything meaningful in return.

It's about time liberals stopped tip toeing around race and religon issues and start calling things as they are.

[Montmorency]

Who were the gropers and assaulters on NYE in Cologne? Were they nazis? Skinheads? Proud aryan men preying on their own women? No.

In case you haven't noticed, the left says yes.

[Fragony]

In case you haven't noticed, the left says yes.

Not that I heard they do but the political correct never fail to make a circle-reasoning that would shame a F5 tornado

[Husar]

Does that girl look like a nazi to you, reeeefleeeex

"I had a bad experience when I left the home ONCE" -> "Why did you RUIN the country?" -> "I'm not against other people, they just RUIN THE COUNTRY" -> Nazi


If I am a bigot than so are the childles mutti's own party-members, who to put it mildly, don't exactly agree with her immigration policy.

So she should fire them all or step down for being a bad leader according to what I learned here. I may cry about the fact that she doesn't at night.


I have always been a bigot youknow, the people who called me one are now harsher than I have ever been.

I don't recall the last time you did anything other than complain, that you are harsh implies that you ever proposed a solution, no?


Turns out that more than half are men. Removing the syrians from the equasion (where there is an actual legitimate reason for people to flee), you are left with Algerians, Morrocans, tunisians, Afghans and the like. And most of those are men.

And what percentage is left when you remove the Syrians from the equation? Do you remove the ones with fake Syrian passports as well and how?


Are they peaceful, humble men who keep a low profile and are grateful for the asylum they've been given? No.

Where is this "100% of the men are not peaceful"-statistic coming from?


They organize themselves in barbaric throngs and harrass and rape western women.

I think Goebbels would have been proud of that rhetoric. What exactly is it based on and where is the proof that all these men do that?


The more vocal ones who speak english go and protest, demanding sharia law, halal meat in the cafeterias and burqas for the women so they don't disrupt their delicate self control.

Where is the "100% of male immigrants in Germany who speak English demand shariah law"-statistic coming from again? Or are we talking about something else by now?


If you remove the rapes and murders commited by ethnic minorities and immigrants in Sweden, you would get a drastiaclly different picture. Heck, just remove Malmo and the equasion is different.

Oh, Sweden again, just pick the extreme to prove that the opposite extreme is the only way.


Who were the gropers and assaulters on NYE in Cologne? Were they nazis? Skinheads? Proud aryan men preying on their own women? No.

Of course not, they were busy beating up 13 year-old girls, jamaicans and other immigrants who do not show up in "barbaric throngs" as you call them because even our brave neo nazis cannot be expected to beat up people who could fight back.


They were "migrants" and second and third generation "migrants" who have not integrated into their host society but instead cause trouble without providing anything meaningful in return.

You usually have a hard time to integrate into something that views you as a "barbaric throng" as soon as you show up with friends.
And maybe our integration policies are terrible, but we should also blame that on all the people who came here.


It's about time liberals stopped tip toeing around race and religon issues and start calling things as they are.

Who are these liberals and what are their religion issues? You mean all the people who kept whining about islam since 9/11 were liberals? And how are things anyway?

[Sarmatian]

If I am a bigot than so are the childles mutti's own party-members, who to put it mildly, don't exactly agree with her immigration policy.

It is possible to disagree with immigration and not be a bigot.


I have always been a bigot youknow,

No you weren't. You had a very tough stance on immigration, but you weren't always a bigot.


Yeah? Families, fleeing, the same old sob story:

"In Europe, over 800,000 migrants have traveled to Europe by sea in 2015, according to the United Nations refugee agency, and a little over half have come from Syria. About 62% of all migrants that have traveled to Europe this year, however, are men. A little under a quarter, 22%, are children and only 16% are women."

So? It is quite normal for men to travel ahead of the their families, especially if the road is hard and dangerous. Once they get set up, they arrange a safe transport of their families.

And what has that got to do with anything? If it were 40% men, you would've been ok with it?


Removing the syrians from the equasion (where there is an actual legitimate reason for people to flee), you are left with Algerians, Morrocans, tunisians, Afghans and the like. And most of those are men.

Really? You think Afghanistan is safe?
What about Iraq?


Are they peaceful, humble men who keep a low profile and are grateful for the asylum they've been given? No. They organize themselves in barbaric throngs and harrass and rape western women. The more vocal ones who speak english go and protest, demanding sharia law, halal meat in the cafeterias and burqas for the women so they don't disrupt their delicate self control.

Really? Cologne again? First hand knowledge from Facebook? So far two perpetrators have been identified, and neither is a refugee. And they're being charged with stealing cameras from the store. Let's wait a bit before we assign blame.


If you remove the rapes and murders commited by ethnic minorities and immigrants in Sweden, you would get a drastiaclly different picture. Heck, just remove Malmo and the equasion is different.

Really? Then how come Scotland has higher rates of violent crimes than England, and much less immigrants?

In general, if you had bother to look, you would see that it is connected again with poverty. Rich Muslim countries tend to have extremely low rates of violent crimes.

It's about poverty, not race or religion.


Who were the gropers and assaulters on NYE in Cologne? Were they nazis? Skinheads? Proud aryan men preying on their own women? No. They were "migrants" and second and third generation "migrants" who have not integrated into their host society but instead cause trouble without providing anything meaningful in return.

Let's wait on that. So far, we have social network hysteria and little else to go on.


It's about time liberals stopped tip toeing around race and religon issues and start calling things as they are.

I don't think I've been tip toeing at all.

[Fragony]

How am I a bigot then, you never say why. Not that I really care or am offended but the forum-rules are pretty clear on personal attacks. It's silly because you know nothing about me

[Pannonian]

So? It is quite normal for men to travel ahead of the their families, especially if the road is hard and dangerous. Once they get set up, they arrange a safe transport of their families.

And what has that got to do with anything? If it were 40% men, you would've been ok with it?

In England during WWII, 100% (or near enough) of evacuees were women and children.

[Sarmatian]

In England during WWII, 100% (or near enough) of evacuees were women and children.

Evacuees to where? Countryside?

[Sarmatian]

How am I a bigot then, you never say why.

Because you compare Muslims with hyenas. Do I need anything more?


Not that I really care or am offended but the forum-rules are pretty clear on personal attacks.
They are also pretty clear on insulting nations and religious groups.


It's silly because you know nothing about me

Yes, you have Muslim friends, I know.

[Pannonian]

Evacuees to where? Countryside?

Yeah. The UK has a tradition of looking after mothers and children, but men and children-less women are expected to get on with it.

[Husar]

In England during WWII, 100% (or near enough) of evacuees were women and children.

Are you sure about that? Where are the numbers from?
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/migrant-crisis-reminder-britains-long-history-welcoming-refugees-photo-report-1517648

http://www.timesofisrael.com/jewish-wwii-refugees-to-uk-let-in-fleeing-syrians/


“Without the intervention and determination of many people who are of many faiths, I – along with some 10,000 others – would have perished,” he wrote. “I strongly believe that we must not stand by, while the oppressed need our help. We cannot ignore the sight of desperate people and in such a crisis we must act to save the most vulnerable refugees: the children, and provide them with the same sanctuary I, along with others, was fortunate to receive.”

Not sure how closing all the borders would save anyone. Pictures in the first link seem to show quite a few men though.

As for the young men, if they didn't flee many of them would be forced to fight, and as all Americans know, guns don't kill people, people kill people. Remove the people and the war there will end sooner while we can still sell a lot of guns to everyone. Problem solved.

[Sarmatian]

Yeah. The UK has a tradition of looking after mothers and children, but men and children-less women are expected to get on with it.

There are a few key differences

1) It was safe
2) It was state sponsored/organized
3) It wasn't a civil war

[Pannonian]

There are a few key differences

1) It was safe
2) It was state sponsored/organized
3) It wasn't a civil war

The UK didn't expect its own citizens, if they weren't mothers and children, to be safeguarded from danger. Why should men be expected to lead the way to safety now? If the EU can only absorb so many refugees at a time, and the issue really is about protecting helpless families, one would have thought the menfolk would be willing to let the women and children fill the quota, rather than make up over half the numbers as they currently do.

[Husar]

The UK didn't expect its own citizens, if they weren't mothers and children, to be safeguarded from danger. Why should men be expected to lead the way to safety now? If the EU can only absorb so many refugees at a time, and the issue really is about protecting helpless families, one would have thought the menfolk would be willing to let the women and children fill the quota, rather than make up over half the numbers as they currently do.

Where is Greyblades when you need him? Are men not deserving of help? Why?

[Fragony]

Because you compare Muslims with hyenas. Do I need anything more?


They are also pretty clear on insulting nations and religious groups.



Yes, you have Muslim friends, I know.

I compare the behaviour of those assholes in Collogne with hyena's yes. But you called me a bigot before Collogne

[Sarmatian]

The UK didn't expect its own citizens, if they weren't mothers and children, to be safeguarded from danger. Why should men be expected to lead the way to safety now? If the EU can only absorb so many refugees at a time, and the issue really is about protecting helpless families, one would have thought the menfolk would be willing to let the women and children fill the quota, rather than make up over half the numbers as they currently do.

As I said -

1) It was safe - Are expecting adult Syrian males to let their their wives and children deal with smugglers, officials, harsh conditions, camps, carry money for smugglers, transportation and corrupt officials, potentially wait months in winter, track back and do it all over again if a border is closed etc, etc... ALONE? Would you let your wife and child do that?

2) 2) It was state sponsored/organized - the transportation was SAFE and where they were going was SAFE(r). During transportation and upon arrival, all basic necessities were provided. There was no danger that a particular village would close its borders and leave everyone stranded. It was the same country, same rules, same language.

3) It wasn't a civil war - there was an organized national effort with a very clear goal and state could provide protection for those who left.


I compare the behaviour of those assholes in Collogne with hyena's yes. But you called me a bigot before Collogne

Well, you were a bigot before that. That was just the latest example the illustrated it perfectly

[Pannonian]

As I said -

1) It was safe - Are expecting adult Syrian males to let their their wives and children deal with smugglers, officials, harsh conditions, camps, carry money for smugglers, transportation and corrupt officials, potentially wait months in winter, track back and do it all over again if a border is closed etc, etc... ALONE? Would you let your wife and child do that?

2) 2) It was state sponsored/organized - the transportation was SAFE and where they were going was SAFE(r). During transportation and upon arrival, all basic necessities were provided. There was no danger that a particular village would close its borders and leave everyone stranded. It was the same country, same rules, same language.

3) It wasn't a civil war - there was an organized national effort with a very clear goal and state could provide protection for those who left.


If they're that fiddly about evacuation from a dangerous location, perhaps they should find somewhere else more welcoming.

[Sarmatian]

If they're that fiddly about evacuation from a dangerous location, perhaps they should find somewhere else more welcoming.

They're looking for long term stability and potential to give their families both life and survival. That's not too much to ask for after what they've been through, I'd reckon.

[Greyblades]

Where is Greyblades when you need him? Are men not deserving of help? Why?
Careful with that strawman; you'll put your eye out.


Not a bigot, a petty little bigot.

A glorified spoiled brat, with some malicious thoughts and delusions of grandeur. Fragony is a bigot. You'd have to improve to become one.

I see.

You are incapable of defending your point and thus you resort to accusations of intolerance in an attempt to stigmatize your opponent.

Sadly at this point I have come to expect this of you.

[Sarmatian]

I see.

You are incapable of defending your point and thus you resort to accusations of intolerance in an attempt to stigmatize your opponent.

Sadly at this point I have come to expect this of you.

You nailed it.

Except that I wasn't making a point but expressing hope for a particular "taste of your own medicine" kind of scenario. And I didn't stigmatize you, you did that yourself. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck... You know the ending.

So, besides everything you've said, you're correct.

[Fragony]

Well, you were a bigot before that. That was just the latest example the illustrated it perfectly

Ah well, one can't get along with everybody I suppose, I will just have to accept that I am a bigot because, ehhhhh I'm a bigot

[drone]

1) It was safe - Are expecting adult Syrian males to let their their wives and children deal with smugglers, officials, harsh conditions, camps, carry money for smugglers, transportation and corrupt officials, potentially wait months in winter, track back and do it all over again if a border is closed etc, etc... ALONE? Would you let your wife and child do that?

A counter-argument would be: So adult Syrian males are leaving their wives and children unprotected for months in a warzone?

[Sarmatian]

A counter-argument would be: So adult Syrian males are leaving their wives and children unprotected for months in a warzone?

A valid counter argument.

Consider this example, though. Let's take a hypothetical Syrian male whom we will aptly call Male. Male is 25-30 years old, has a wife and a 5-10 year old child. He lives in a small village in Syria with his family and his parents which isn't directly threatened at the moment. What are his options? He could remain there. War shows no signs of ending so the situation, while stable now, may change and the village may come under threat. The constant warfare is threatening food supplies, also. Even if they manage to survive, the future for his family looks grim. There's very little chance his child will get a chance to have an education and a what we would call "a normal life", house, job, marriage, the lot. Even in the best case scenario. In the worst case scenario they all end up dead. He's been torn for a long time. At first he hoped that it may end soon. Then a year passed, then another year passed, and then 3 more. No end in sight. The country is so devastated that even if the warfare stopped this instant, it would take years to recover. His child would still be deprived of normal life. So, he decides to try to leave. Now, where to? Gulf countries? They're full up. North Africa? The situation there isn't much better than in Syria. Horn of Africa? Not much better than Syria. Iran? Caucasus? Balkans? Unstable. Wars and/or low level warfare now or in the recent past.

So, Male thinks his best option for safety of his family is western Europe. How will he get there? The road is long, he may not have much money. He will probably be hungry, cold and generally in danger during the trip. He may be forced to deal with lowlifes and criminals. He may end up being close to his goal and those countries could close their borders, forcing him back through all that. There's no way he could take his wife and child on such a trip, full of dangers and uncertainties. So, he decides to go alone, and leaves his family in the relative safety of his village. His parents will be there to help if needed, and if the worst truly happens, his presence wouldn't have made a difference. So Male embarks on the trip alone, hoping to reach somewhere safe, and organize transport for his family at the earliest possible opportunity.

Or you could have a Male 2.0, who isn't married and has no children. The situation is the same, so instead of trying to start a family in Syria, he seeks to move to a stable country where he could start a family, raise his children in safety and provide them a normal life.

[Pannonian]

A valid counter argument.

Consider this example, though. Let's take a hypothetical Syrian male whom we will aptly call Male. Male is 25-30 years old, has a wife and a 5-10 year old child. He lives in a small village in Syria with his family and his parents which isn't directly threatened at the moment. What are his options? He could remain there. War shows no signs of ending so the situation, while stable now, may change and the village may come under threat. The constant warfare is threatening food supplies, also. Even if they manage to survive, the future for his family looks grim. There's very little chance his child will get a chance to have an education and a what we would call "a normal life", house, job, marriage, the lot. Even in the best case scenario. In the worst case scenario they all end up dead. He's been torn for a long time. At first he hoped that it may end soon. Then a year passed, then another year passed, and then 3 more. No end in sight. The country is so devastated that even if the warfare stopped this instant, it would take years to recover. His child would still be deprived of normal life. So, he decides to try to leave. Now, where to? Gulf countries? They're full up. North Africa? The situation there isn't much better than in Syria. Horn of Africa? Not much better than Syria. Iran? Caucasus? Balkans? Unstable. Wars and/or low level warfare now or in the recent past.

So, Male thinks his best option for safety of his family is western Europe. How will he get there? The road is long, he may not have much money. He will probably be hungry, cold and generally in danger during the trip. He may be forced to deal with lowlifes and criminals. He may end up being close to his goal and those countries could close their borders, forcing him back through all that. There's no way he could take his wife and child on such a trip, full of dangers and uncertainties. So, he decides to go alone, and leaves his family in the relative safety of his village. His parents will be there to help if needed, and if the worst truly happens, his presence wouldn't have made a difference. So Male embarks on the trip alone, hoping to reach somewhere safe, and organize transport for his family at the earliest possible opportunity.

Or you could have a Male 2.0, who isn't married and has no children. The situation is the same, so instead of trying to start a family in Syria, he seeks to move to a stable country where he could start a family, raise his children in safety and provide them a normal life.

And why are we expected to facilitate this?

[Shaka_Khan]

Cities with better police action will have groups who get along and trust each other. Multiculturalism works pretty well in these places. Expatriates and immigrants are welcome in these places. Unfortunately, there are people who have the opinion that more police presence equals oppression. There are ways to prevent governments from becoming tyrants and keep the cities safe at the same time.

In my opinion, it is the lack of action by the government and the police that (unintentionally) increased the crime rate in the first place. I've been to a few dangerous cities in the US. What striked me was the police living in fear as they patrolled the streets. There were many cases in which the police were unable to prevent crime from happening. When I'm in those cities, I'm not sure that the police would be able to help me if I get into a bad situation. It's very different when I'm in a safe city. Europe wouldn't be having this problem if the governments (particularly Germany and Sweden) weren't so lenient early on when it was easier to handle. Then the troublemakers would've got the message. There are people with extreme deviant behaviors in every ethnicity and race. Most of the problematic people won't act deviant if the governments show that they care about their citizens and show that they'll enforce protection strongly.

[Pannonian]

Cities with better police action will have groups who get along and trust each other. Multiculturalism works pretty well in these places. Expatriates and immigrants are welcome in these places. Unfortunately, there are people who have the opinion that more police presence equals oppression. There are ways to prevent governments from becoming tyrants and keep the cities safe at the same time.

In my opinion, it is the lack of action by the government and the police that (unintentionally) increased the crime rate in the first place. I've been to a few dangerous cities in the US. What striked me was the police living in fear as they patrolled the streets. There were many cases in which the police were unable to prevent crime from happening. When I'm in those cities, I'm not sure that the police would be able to help me if I get into a bad situation. It's very different when I'm in a safe city. Europe wouldn't be having this problem if the governments (particularly Germany and Sweden) weren't so lenient early on when it was easier to handle. Then the troublemakers would've got the message. There are people with extreme deviant behaviors in every ethnicity and race. Most of the problematic people won't act deviant if the governments show that they care about their citizens and show that they'll enforce protection strongly.

In every single culture across the world, throughout history, it is the responsibility of the guest to show extra courtesy whilst in the home of the hosts. The exception is when the incomer is a conqueror. It's why English football fans have been reviled/possibly are still reviled abroad. Multiply this by quite a few times for the current situation. It's in no way the fault of the hosts, however much you may wish to paint it so.

[Papewaio]

In every single culture across the world, throughout history, it is the responsibility of the guest to show extra courtesy whilst in the home of the hosts. The exception is when the incomer is a conqueror. It's why English football fans have been reviled/possibly are still reviled abroad. Multiply this by quite a few times for the current situation. It's in no way the fault of the hosts, however much you may wish to paint it so.

Policing is part of the preventative measures. As are IDs, communication improvement, vetting and allocation of the correct resources is social services and medical resourcing.

One part is making sure the immigrants aren't part of the cause of the issues that they are fleeing.
Another is to help the new arrivals steer clear of groups that will take advantage of them from low level criminals to bosses exploiting labour.

If all the new associates are the current societies pariahs rather then upstanding law and order types like good police then who do you think the noobs are going to pattern themselves on?

Society cannot expect people to passively integrate in the most positive manner. They will naturally conform to a range unless prompted otherwise. Even with good measures their are undesirable outcomes in every society.

[Fragony]

Being a good guest would be a good start before musing about what we could do better as a host.

[Pannonian]

Policing is part of the preventative measures. As are IDs, communication improvement, vetting and allocation of the correct resources is social services and medical resourcing.

One part is making sure the immigrants aren't part of the cause of the issues that they are fleeing.
Another is to help the new arrivals steer clear of groups that will take advantage of them from low level criminals to bosses exploiting labour.

If all the new associates are the current societies pariahs rather then upstanding law and order types like good police then who do you think the noobs are going to pattern themselves on?

Society cannot expect people to passively integrate in the most positive manner. They will naturally conform to a range unless prompted otherwise. Even with good measures their are undesirable outcomes in every society.

It makes you wonder why so many second generation Muslims are religious fundies though, after their parents did all they could to give their children a normative western life. After our experience with homegrown Islamist loons, I have little confidence that the newcomers will produce better results. Especially as the newcomers seem to be worse behaved than the previous intake of first generation Muslims, who at least tried to do their best before their idiot kids turned against their country of birth.

If we are to receive them, they should be loyal to the UK above any other identity. If this seems unfairly exceptional when other cultures aren't told to do the same, that's because other cultures accept it a a matter of course, and adapt themselves to fit into the host society.

[Myth]

It's because the muslims want to be horse archers, yet you force them into being longbowmen.

[Sarmatian]

And why are we expected to facilitate this?

Because helping out fellow humans is a sign of a civilized society.

Nothing can force you, though. It is a choice, except a certain number of workers that have to be imported because of an aging population in most western countries.


In every single culture across the world, throughout history, it is the responsibility of the guest to show extra courtesy whilst in the home of the hosts.

Yes, but two points.

1) They are not guests. Guests are expected to show extra courtesy, but they aren't expected to do anything and they are taken care of by their host. These refugees will have the same rights and obligations towards the state and society as you have, after the initial period for settling in. New tenants in the building would be a better comparison.

2) Why are you considering them bad guests? Even if we accept that social network hysteria is accurate, in facts and scale (which is highly unlikely), it is still a minute number compared to the number of refugees overall. There will be rotten apples in every basket.

[Fragony]

Too many apples, not enough pie. Almost all local rulers try to talk some sense into the childless mutti.

the only answer; wir schaffen das

'But we don't! We lack the capacity!'

wir. schaffen. das. stfu

[Gilrandir]

In general, if you had bother to look, you would see that it is connected again with poverty. Rich Muslim countries tend to have extremely low rates of violent crimes.

It's about poverty, not race or religion.


It doesn't change the ultimate result for locals: their country is becomoing more unsafe with the advent of immigrants whatever explanation is behind their behavior.




1) It was safe - Are expecting adult Syrian males to let their their wives and children deal with smugglers, officials, harsh conditions, camps, carry money for smugglers, transportation and corrupt officials, potentially wait months in winter, track back and do it all over again if a border is closed etc, etc... ALONE? Would you let your wife and child do that?


BUT: when they try to be united with their families, the latter will have to go through the same hardships involving camps, smugglers, corrupt officials and so on. Or do you mean Germany will PAY to ship the rest of the family in?


So, he decides to try to leave. Now, where to? Gulf countries? They're full up. North Africa? The situation there isn't much better than in Syria. Horn of Africa? Not much better than Syria. Iran? Caucasus? Balkans? Unstable. Wars and/or low level warfare now or in the recent past.

How does a peasant from a backward village know the state of things all over the Eastern hemisphere? And it seems that any of those places are better than Syria, so he is supposed to dash for the first safer corner, not to speculate on picking the choiciest nook.

[Pannonian]

It doesn't change the ultimate result for locals: their country is becomoing more unsafe with the advent of immigrants whatever explanation is behind their behavior.


Especially as

1. ISIS have threatened to smuggle agents among the refugees, to attack soft targets in the west.
2. They've already done it in Paris, resulting in 100+ deaths.

[Husar]

It doesn't change the ultimate result for locals: their country is becomoing more unsafe with the advent of immigrants whatever explanation is behind their behavior.

It wasn't safe before either, but noone cared. There were hand grenade attacks between rivalling biker gangs, mass gatherings of said biker gangs with huge police protection, human trafficking at a huge scale, mafia executions in cities, professional eastern european burglar gangs that would rob homes during broad daylight, mafia families from the balkans and levant that owned entire streets, engaged in drug trafficking and had feuds with each other openly on the streets and yet we kept electing Merkel and friends over and over who saved us so much money by reducing police budgets...

But yeah, all these problems are the fault of Syrian men who don't want to get drafted and die for their dictator.


Especially as

1. ISIS have threatened to smuggle agents among the refugees, to attack soft targets in the west.
2. They've already done it in Paris, resulting in 100+ deaths.

1. And we should cower in fear as soon as they say that. This way we win.
2. There was one guy who may have come disguised as a refugee, the only sensible reaction is to let a million people freeze to death in front of a barbed wire.

[Pannonian]

1. And we should cower in fear as soon as they say that. This way we win.
2. There was one guy who may have come disguised as a refugee, the only sensible reaction is to let a million people freeze to death in front of a barbed wire.

IIRC all except one of the Paris attackers had been in Syria, and had returned with the refugees via Greece.

[Viking]

It wasn't safe before either, but noone cared. There were hand grenade attacks between rivalling biker gangs, mass gatherings of said biker gangs with huge police protection, human trafficking at a huge scale, mafia executions in cities, professional eastern european burglar gangs that would rob homes during broad daylight, mafia families from the balkans and levant that owned entire streets, engaged in drug trafficking and had feuds with each other openly on the streets and yet we kept electing Merkel and friends over and over who saved us so much money by reducing police budgets...

But yeah, all these problems are the fault of Syrian men who don't want to get drafted and die for their dictator.

Note that what you quote says more.