The Mongols invade SamWars mod...

we found the problem with beta8 that desynced MP,
and we fixed it.

in doing so puzz added the original medieval unit mix back into the unit prod files

and that got me thinking...

most of the mongols were ported to medieval by creative assembly,
they renamed some, and only really "lost" a couple, javelins and guardsmen,

but they used a javelin unit elsewhere, and the guardsmen could be any "eastern" elite infantry

so i took some liberties, and now we have the mongol faction with unique units in the MP side of the Samwars mod,

they simply need play balancing...

I.N.T.R.O.D.U.C.I.N.G. YOUR M.O.N.G.O.L H.O.R.D.E.
Golden Horde Heavy Cavalry
Golden Horde Horse Archers
Steppe Cavalry (always needed in Shogun, and now they're here!!)

Golden Horde Warriors (again, much needed and freshly minted)
Janisary Heavy Infantry (playing the role of Guardsmen)
Murabittin Infantry (playing the role of Javelins)
Muwahid Foot (playing the role of Spearmen)
Naptha Throwers (playing the role of Thunder Bombers)

did i miss anything?

install beta 8, unzip this little file, drop the contents into the main game folder,
in custom battle or mp select 2008 Samurai Warlords
enjoy
2008_SAMWARS_MONGOLS.zip

:bow:

Orda suggested the following unit set for the Mongol faction:

Korean Spearmen
Korean Guards
Korean Skirmishers
Thunder Bombers
Imperial Archers ( Golden Horde Warriors )

Imperial Heavy Cav ( G/H )...armed with sword or polearm
Mongol Heavy Cav ( STW/MI )...armed with a lance
Imperial Horse Archers ( G/H ) armed with a bow
Mongol Horse Archers ( STW/MI ) armed with a bow

As the Mongol Cav were highly trained I would expect them to be reliable, disciplined units. As for the two Horse Archer units ( I just had variety in mind really ) but perhaps their stats could be adjusted, possibly making, say, Imperial Horse Archers better in defense and Mongol Horse Archers better in attack.

With the Heavies, Imperials and Mongols could be a bit like the Japanese Heavy / Naginata, with Mongols being faster, lighter armoured swift, shock Cav. Imperials could take the role of breaking weakened units and holding, similar to the Japanese Heavy Cav

:bow:
Is the idea to leave the Mongols weak on anti-cav?
for guardsmen are really halberd units, and not so good anti-cav as yari,
(my thought with steppe was a role similar to yari cav,)

perhaps the lack of good spear units could be the Mongols weakness?
and their proficiency with missiles their strength?

what to do about the Mongols lack of guns?
a second weakness perhaps?
forcing players who take Mongol to avoid a prolonged missile duel?

If such is the case then a Mongol player will have to avoid rushing, for the spears will get him,
yet cannot sit still – or the guns will get him,
so must exercise guile, speed and maneuver.


So we lose the steppe cav from MP?
and import both types of Mongol Cav from Shogun?

Yes the idea is to have the Mongol's strength be in their cav with the Korean infantry weak relative to the Japanese infantry. If the Mongol heavy cav have a lance they will have anti-cav bonus and be unbeatable by any Japanese cav unit. This will put the Japanese on the tactical defensive. It could be difficult to playbalance.

The other option would be to not give Mongol heavy cav the anti-cav bonus and keep the steppe cav for that purpose. The problem there is that you are drifting into duplicating the tactical capability of the Japanese cav rather than offering something tactically different, and you will have to improve the Korean infantry, if the Japanese cav can counter the Mongol cav, making the Mongols even more Japanese like tactically.

The Japanese won't have guns in the Mongol era because they weren't invented yet.

well in the incarnation i uploaded the japanese do have guns,
that can be played for fun until the next incarnation of the mod.


keeping the mongols tactically different would be a priority,
giving them a heavy unit with anti-cav would defeat that goal.

i envisage stepp cav would have even less armour than yari cav, cloaks and padding and No yoroi,
making them even more vulnerable to missiles - (i would Not make them faster than yari cav),
- where one can use yari cav to scatter archers, one could not use steppe cav to the same effect
(perhaps make the steppe cav fear sam archers?)

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Originally Posted by TechnoMage of Shadows

keeping the mongols tactically different would be a priority,
giving them a heavy unit with anti-cav would defeat that goal.

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I'd rather not give MHC the anti-cav bonus because it was a problem in STW/MI and would mean their cost would have to be increased over JHC, but we'll have to eventually remove the lance and give them a different weapon.

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Originally Posted by TechnoMage of Shadows

i envisage stepp cav would have even less armour than yari cav, cloaks and padding and No yoroi,
making them even more vulnerable to missiles - (i would Not make them faster than yari cav),
- where one can use yari cav to scatter archers, one could not use steppe cav to the same effect
(perhaps make the steppe cav fear sam archers?)

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They could be a slightly less expensive version of YC. Less armor would reduce their defensive melee capability as well, and their cost would therefore be lower than YC. I don't want to rely on fear factor as a balancing mechanism in Samurai Wars because it's not intuitive. We can adjust the morale level of a unit to make it more likely or less likely to rout.

So, we could go ahead and playbalance with the MHC, MLC and Steppe cav as the Mongol cav units, and add the Imperial cav later. I think the Imperial cav will come in as less expensive versions of MHC and MLC just as NC is a less expensive version of JHC.

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Originally Posted by Puzz3D

I'd rather not give MHC the anti-cav bonus because it was a problem in STW/MI and would mean their cost would have to be increased over JHC.

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Hello,

STW was a very complex problem and it's near impossible to fix anything and avoid running into another pitfal.

It's true that the MHC was a very strong unit, however the main trouble was the battlefieldupgrade and the honour sellback. Both problems are no longer an issue in the VI engine.

Wasn't the cost in STW WE: 600 for JHC and 800 for MHC? All unit prices have been doubled in the SamWars mod to unfavour upgrading. The MHC can be an awesome unit for 1600. At 9k, you can probably only buy 4 at most, and doing so would drain the whole coffer.

In STW WE you could buy 4 at 10k and still have more than enough money for other decent units.

Keep in mind that the MHC was originally cheaper than 800. Its price was increased in the first patch to attempt fixing bf upgrades/honoursellback (perhaps without realising). That means it probably would have to be cheaper than 1600 in the SamWars mod while still having Mr. Awesome status. Out of balance? Yes, maybe. But the idea is that the Mongol faction has stronger cavalry, weaker infantry, uses both and that the resulting army is equally strong as a Japanese army. That never worked in STW WE, but it has a decent change to work in SamWars (no bf upgrades, no honour sellback). Start balancing using the original 4 4 4 stats and twice the original price. Maybe cost needs to increase to 1400 or more.

All Mongol units in STW WE had ashigaru status. Even the honour 8 MHC, that's good I think.

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Originally Posted by TosaInu

Start balancing using the original 4 4 4 stats and twice the original price. Maybe cost needs to increase to 1400 or more.

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The reason for raising the price so high in STW/MI was that MHC had the anti-cav bonus. Without anti-cav bonus and set to 4 4 4 (attack defense armor) stats they woud be about the same cost as JHC which has 3 5 5 in Samurai Wars. If they are improved, the price will go up. We will have to decide in what way MHC are to be better than JHC. There is room to increase the melee stat of MHC since YS have 12 combat points vs cav. YA and YC have 8 combat points vs cav.

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Originally Posted by TosaInu

All Mongol units in STW WE had ashigaru status. Even the honour 8 MHC, that's good I think.

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Should Mongol unit's morale be affected equally by Korean units that rout and Mongol units that rout? If only the Korean units were given ashigaru status, they would count as half a unit when they rout in the eyes of nearby Mongol units. I think that's all ashigaru status does.

in the meantime we now have a small patch that allows MP using beta 8,
adds in several previously "inactive" japanese factions (Taira etc.),
and adds in the mongol faction with a set of mongol units (even if they are currently unbalanced),

will we see some online games organised using this?
what better way to test balance.

(From reading this forum it is obvious that Hoganji were ALSO designed to have their own unit mix as well,
Would hate to try testing two new unit mixes at once)

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Originally Posted by Puzz3D

The reason for raising the price so high in STW/MI was that MHC had the anti-cav bonus.

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I'm not sure, but I think the price was increased as it turned out to perform so well, not because they had this or that. If that were the case, they may never have been like that.

The idea was simply this: they perform well, no matter how one exaggerates that, it's always an understatement. So a better performing unit should be more expensive.

This had a side-effect though (at least it didn't turn out to be all that effective, nor did the next step as this was partly voided by the bfu): more expensive units return more money when downgraded. I recall the price was originally ~600 @ H2, that makes 307 at H0. The patch made them 800 @ H2, but that's only 408 at H0 and 571 at H1. It was still possible to buy 16 fearsome, very powerful units. Nothing wrong with fearful units, but there shouldn't be 16 of them.

A units cost in the VI engine is the lowest cost for a unit, if you have 800 there, they are at least 800. The VI engine uses the rush tax, it's impossible that I'ld field 16 MHC at 9k. Something I did once in STW WE 1.0 at 7 k (the first week or so where players experiment, you recall that multi- 3v3?- on Totomi?)

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Without anti-cav bonus and set to 4 4 4 (attack defense armor) stats they woud be about the same cost as JHC which has 3 5 5 in Samurai Wars. If they are improved, the price will go up.

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The JHC is 1200. The MHC, using STW 1.0 and doubling, would be 1200-1300. I can see it being maybe a bit more expensive than that, maybe 1400, but not 1600. Balance isn't the simple x performance -> y cost of a unit here. That's because the Mongol army is supposed to be superior in the cavalry department and inferior with infantry. The Mongol player has basically two choices: buy a tiny army of very good units, or buy a full army consisting of 50% weaker than the Japanese counterpart and 50% stronger than the Japanese counterpart. This was the idea in STW WE too, afaik CA's intention. I think it makes a lot of sense: cannon fodder forced by the Mongols to fight.

In STW WE it didn't work because:
-one could buy 16 units of extremely powerful Mongol cavalry.
-the upgrade system allowed to purchase acceptable Korean infantry.

It's impossible to buy 16 Mongol cavalry in VI at 9k when their cost is ~1000 each.
The upgrade system can't be used to pump weak units.
There are no bfu.

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We will have to decide in what way MHC are to be better than JHC. There is room to increase the melee stat of MHC since YS have 12 combat points vs cav. YA and YC have 8 combat points vs cav.

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Mongol cav should get more bang for bucks. Not an extra option for more money. Iirc, every SamWars unit started with STW WE stats and double the cost in SamWars, From there it got tweaked. The starting point for MHC should be the same: 4 attack, 4 defense, 4 anticav bonus, 1200 koku.

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Should Mongol unit's morale be affected equally by Korean units that rout and Mongol units that rout? If only the Korean units were given ashigaru status, they would count as half a unit when they rout in the eyes of nearby Mongol units. I think that's all ashigaru status does.

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All of them were ashigaru in STW. In STW I felt that an ashigaru was also more prone to waver when seeing routing friends than samurai (1 runs -> they all go). Not 100% sure whether the morale levels were equal for samurai and pumped ashi.

I think it's good for the MLC to be ashi, as this mimics fake retreats. Not sure about the MHC. Neither were peasants of course, but the heavies didn't do fakes like the light?

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Originally Posted by TosaInu

Mongol cav should get more bang for bucks. Not an extra option for more money. Iirc, every SamWars unit started with STW WE stats and double the cost in SamWars, From there it got tweaked. The starting point for MHC should be the same: 4 attack, 4 defense, 4 anticav bonus, 1200 koku.

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I disagree that a unit should be underpriced. You'll have to overprice other units to balance the faction, but players are smart enough to simply not buy the overpriced units. The price of a unit should reflect the performance which is the method we used in balancing the Japanese units Samurai Wars. We had to improve several units between the 10b and 11b stat because they were hardly being used due to them being overpriced relative to their performance.

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Originally Posted by TosaInu

All of them were ashigaru in STW. In STW I felt that an ashigaru was also more prone to waver when seeing routing friends than samurai (1 runs -> they all go). Not 100% sure whether the morale levels were equal for samurai and pumped ashi.

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In STW routing ashi induced no morale penalty in samurai, but in MTW/VI they do so it's not necessary to make all the Mongol units ashi just so they will get a morale penalty from friendly units that rout.

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Originally Posted by TosaInu

I think it's good for the MLC to be ashi, as this mimics fake retreats. Not sure about the MHC. Neither were peasants of course, but the heavies didn't do fakes like the light?

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There is no connection between being able to feint and ashi status. MLC will be able to feint as much as you want as long as they have ammo. That was a change made to the battle mechanics in MI.

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Originally Posted by Puzz3D

I disagree that a unit should be underpriced. You'll have to overprice other units to balance the faction,

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Indeed.

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but players are smart enough to simply not buy the overpriced units.

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Not when the underpriced unit is still so expensive that players can only buy a few of them in 9k battles. The 9k is the first mechanism that prevents this, the rushtax is the second.

IF the MHC would be 1k (which is too little) and IF there were no rushtax, only 9 of them could be fielded. What's the max amount of MHC that can be fielded when it's underpriced, but 12-14k with rushtax? 6? 6 units vs 16 Japanese? 4 MHC + 4 MLC could also be ~8-9k. 8 units vs 16 Japanese? Of course you can do that, but I'ld like some overpriced infantry and 3 MHC +3 MLC instead.

In STW WE a 800 koku MHC was purchased at a downgraded ~400 koku, there was no rushrax (for good or worse) and players could indeed purchase 16 MHC or a mix with MLC.

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There is no connection between being able to feint and ashi status.

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It's an ashi, so less is required to rout it. Yet, the higher morale will help to rally again when at safe distance. Of course this is no feint: the object is triggered to leg it, not to pretend.

Hello. I just noticed this, it's good to see Mongols added at last.

Just a few points regarding balance.

Japanese.....JHC, YC, NC, JCA
Mongols.......MHC, MLC, (weak steppe cav)

I don't see cav supremacy among the Mongols. I played Beta8 and tbh I thought the YC could do with a price hike, either that or weaken it in some way. With weaker inf for Mongols and the above cav roster, I don't see them posing any threat.

JCA can counter MLC and any attempt to engage JCA in melee can be countered by the already overly effective YC. MHC without an anti cav bonus would also be dealt with by YC and having steppe cav that can't even charge archers is a waste of time. What would their purpose be? Chasing routers only? I would drop them.

Consider...
MLC ... Perhaps more accuracy than JCA and with better melee abilities but not as strong as YC or NC...... 700 koku
MHC .. WITH anti cav bonus, not as fast as YC. I see this unit as being a sort of YC/NC hybrid. Capable of beating both in melee it is still slower than YC, allowing the Japanese player the option to pin and rear, etc.....1000 koku

YIC (Yuan Imperial Cav) .. A carbon copy JHC....1200 koku
YHA (Yuan Horsearchers) .. Carbon copy JCA but with less armour (I don't know the beta8 stats, so I don't know what JCA have).....500 koku

On to infantry...
KGM (Korean Guardsman) .. A NI in most ways, though with less armour and faster. A combination of NI and YS......700 koku
KS (Korean Spearman) .. Carbon copy YA (you can't make this unit weaker than rice planting peasants).....200 koku
KSk (Korean Skirmishers) .. Possibly use the Murrabatin inf stats? I can't remember if they were the ones with shields, I think they were. Whatever the case, they should be no better than Teppo in melee....200 koku
YIA (Yuan Imperial Archers) .. Carbon copy SA?......400 koku
TB (Thunder Bombers) .. Now I don't know whether this unit would really add anything to the battle but I would be inclined to drop it and think of another option.....

SC (Song Crossbowmen) .. The addition of this unit would give the Mongol player his 'guns' for MP shoot outs. It could be similar to the Portugese Teppo. The Turkish Crossbow sprites could be used.....300 koku.

This army could be fielded in MP without the need to change era and any imbalances would soon be ironed out.
Anyway, post the current Beta8 stats and I'll have a browse

......Orda

Hello Orda,

I think the Mongol units just got some stats, perhaps the vanilla VI values. That will probably be out of sync with the ported STW units.

Beta8 is a total conversion for all I know. Instead of being limited to the ten custom sprite directories, we have them all. Why not use the STW sprites for Korean Infantry? I feel they look very nice.

I think it should be 12th-13th century units, without guns.

The heavy steppe and the Mongol footarchers from VI may be nice. It's the Asian part of the Mongol army. Or did they carry recruits from say Middle East all the way back?

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Originally Posted by TosaInu

I think the Mongol units just got some stats, perhaps the vanilla VI values. That will probably be out of sync with the ported STW units.

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I wasn't clear. I meant the current Japanese stats. Just looking for a starting point.

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Beta8 is a total conversion for all I know. Instead of being limited to the ten custom sprite directories, we have them all. Why not use the STW sprites for Korean Infantry? I feel they look very nice.

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Yes of course, the Korean sprites should be used. I was under the impression an animation is linked to a sprite, therefore my suggestion for the crossbow unit using the Turkish VI sprite. If it's possible to substitute a Korean sprite all the better, I always liked them too.

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I think it should be 12th-13th century units, without guns.

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For SP or for the purist, I'd agree. Lack of guns in the Mongol era was quite a negative among the old MI players. A single MP era would be better IMO, less fuss and it also offers an approach that has not been used before. Fantasy? Maybe but it's variety, afterall what do 29 Japanese factions offer MP? You can have 129 but only 8 max can ever be used.

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The heavy steppe and the Mongol footarchers from VI may be nice. It's the Asian part of the Mongol army. Or did they carry recruits from say Middle East all the way back?

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The steppe heavy would be like a NC with a bow, harder to balance, which is why I went for a cheaper HA unit. The Golden Horde Archers were my idea as the YIA. Historically, the invasion of Japan was a Yuan affair, the other Khanates were not involved. It was mainly Song Chinese and Koreans with a small percentage of Mongols.

As for sprites.....
MLC.......MI
MHC.......MI
YIC........GHHC
YHA......GHHA
YIA.......GHA
Korean units ...MI.
The unit costs were speculative

.......Orda

The Samurai Wars stats are already posted in the Samurai Wars 11b Multiplayer Stats thread in the sticky section.

The YC have been carefully balanced, and tested in hundreds of multiplayer battles. They were tested at various costs, and 1000 was found to be the best price. They are faster than JHC, but have about half the combat power, lower morale and less armor. They are equal in combat power vs JHC. The YC in Samurai Wars are weaker and more expensive than the YC in STW/MI. A 4 4 MHC with anti-cav bonus is going to defeat both JHC and YC very quickly, and sustain very few losses in doing so. It would have to cost more than JHC to have balanced cavalry.

You can't use pin and flank as a balancing mechanism because the flanking unit can be counterflanked by the opponent's free unit. Two YC wouldn't stand a chance of beating the proposed and less expensive MHC + MLC duo.

Steppe cav wouldn't be useless against ranged units.

The proposed Mongols will win the shootout which will force the Japanese to attack. The Mongol cav will beat the Japanese cav, and then flank the Japanese infantry which is busy fighting the Korean inf. The Japanese player will loose every time.

(not my area of expertise at all, but my thoughts for the pot)

if the korean infantry are less capable than the japanese infantry (ignore golden horde foot for the moment)
then you need less japanese infantry to deal with korean,

i would expect golden horde foot to equate to sam archers PLUS a "katana armed samurai" = a unit that does not exist,
SO i would imagine a katana armed samurai to be slightlyless deadly than no-dachi, but with slightly better defence.

in other words golden horde infantry would not be "unbeatable", merely a capable, multi-role unit.
i would expect their cost to match their capabilities

thus the japanese player should STILL have excess infantry available to help deal with mongol cavalry.
:bow:

your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to make it so.

Golden Horde Inf would be the Mongols only missile unit other than MLC and SC (disregard Korean Skirmishers who lack the range of archers) their capabilities in melee will be negated by the losses taken during a shoot out against a cheaper unit. That would just be VI revisited and I don't favour rush tactics as an alternative.

Puzz3D,
Thanks, I'll check the stats. However I still maintain that YC are too effective. I played a Beta8 game with CBR a while back, hadn't played SamWars for a long time and it was the first thing that struck me.
Pin and flank was not meant to be a balance mechanism, simply an example of a counter (I anticipated a reaction that they would be too strong). The JHC can't catch a YC but it is capable of beating it in melee, likewise the NC. The YC cannot be allowed the ability to kill the way it does or there will be no Mongol cav supremacy. The counter for Mongol cav should surely be the stronger Japanese infantry. In MI 103, the Japanese player could sit tight and counter MLC with SA, safe in the knowledge that his cheaper, far superior inf would deal with anything else the Mongol player had to offer.

I really don't see why the proposed Mongols should win the shoot out and win EVERY time.

In a missile duel both forces are equal apart from MLC having slightly better accuracy.

MLC v JCA (MLC=700koku...JCA=600koku)
YIA v SA
SC v PT.....aren't JT a better Teppo unit? (SC=200koku...PT=200koku...JT=300koku) That negates the MLC advantage over JCA or maybe even gives the Japanese player the advantage. I would imagine ND and WM chopping their way through the Korean units quite easily while YS, YA and JHC deal with Mongol cav.

I'm sure the Japanese player will not be at the disadvantage you suggest

......Orda

i dont think you'll balance the mongols if you intend to play them as another flavour of chicken

(shootout is a game of chicken = first to flinch usually dies) = (never have been a fan of chicken)

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Originally Posted by TechnoMage of Shadows

i dont think you'll balance the mongols if you intend to play them as another flavour of chicken

(shootout is a game of chicken = first to flinch usually dies) = (never have been a fan of chicken)

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I can see your point.
Of course, battles don't have to be fought this way with any faction but the option should still be a valid one. If the ability to hold your own in a shoot out is not present it limits options.
I've used Mongol armies in various forms from MI and VI and numerous mods and in practically every case it was possible for the opponent to keep his units close, sit tight and soak up the arrows in the knowledge that whatever he had left would be enough.
I've suggested an army that can trade missile for missile; the Japanese player must look to win with infantry and the Mongol via cavalry.
During a period of inactivity, I made adjustments to the MI 103 mod Mongol stats which resulted in decent gameplay with no obvious advantage for either player. Both factions felt different to use and the outcome was not a certainty

......Orda

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Originally Posted by Orda Khan

The YC cannot be allowed the ability to kill the way it does or there will be no Mongol cav supremacy.

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The objective of Samurai Wars is to emulate as much as possible original STW gameplay. The YC capabilities are consistent with that objective. It beats and looses to the same units that it did in STW.

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Originally Posted by Orda Khan

The counter for Mongol cav should surely be the stronger Japanese infantry. In MI 103, the Japanese player could sit tight and counter MLC with SA, safe in the knowledge that his cheaper, far superior inf would deal with anything else the Mongol player had to offer.

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Maybe, but keep in mind that the CA are already using the same bow as the SA. The only reason the CA loose in shooting is that the horse is a larger target and they don't loose by much. So, if the MLC are given a better bow then they may have to have less armor for them to loose a shootout with SA.

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Originally Posted by Orda Khan

I really don't see why the proposed Mongols should win the shoot out and win EVERY time.
In a missile duel both forces are equal apart from MLC having slightly better accuracy.

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That might be true if they are both fielding the same number of ranged units, but already CA won't match MLC in shooting capability so CA will loose that matchup every time. The Mongol player won't have less MLC units than the opposing CA units even if they cost 700 instead of 600 because the Mongol infantry will be cheaper than the Japanese infantry. With WM costing 1000 you only have to kill 6 men to gain a 100 cost differential. A 60 man CA can kill 6 WM with 2 volleys in 8 seconds, and MLC are going to be even more effective than that.

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Originally Posted by Orda Khan

SC v PT.....aren't JT a better Teppo unit? (SC=200koku...PT=200koku...JT=300koku) That negates the MLC advantage over JCA or maybe even gives the Japanese player the advantage.

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The JT is more expensive than the SC so they would be balanced by cost relative to each other. The MLC would also be balanced against the JCA by cost.

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Originally Posted by Orda Khan

I would imagine ND and WM chopping their way through the Korean units quite easily while YS, YA and JHC deal with Mongol cav.

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Only YS will be able to counter MHC. YA will loose to MHC, and JHC will be slaughtered by MHC at a rate of more than 2 to 1. ND only have 3 combat points, so they aren't very powerful. Both ND and WM can be shot to ribbons by archers, and they both loose to cavalry. Even if the Japanese infantry can beat the Korean infantry without the Mongol cav backstabbing them, that doesn't win the battle. The Japanese player still has to somehow beat the Mongol cavalry with his slow and now exhausted infantry.

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Originally Posted by Orda Khan

I'm sure the Japanese player will not be at the disadvantage you suggest

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The Japanese player will be relegated to a defensive posture since conducting offensive operations against Mongol cavalry with Japanese cavalry will result in financial loss for the Japanese player, and also lead to the Mongol player having more active units which is really bad in a game where flanking is an effective tactic. I think the Mongols should be a separate era otherwise they are going to upset the dynamic playbalance of the Sengoku era where both sides have equal attacking chances.

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Originally Posted by Puzz3D

I think the Mongols should be a separate era otherwise they are going to upset the dynamic playbalance of the Sengoku era where both sides have equal attacking chances.

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I absolutely agree. The Mongols vs. Japanese will be a seperate era.
There's no use in upsetting the fine balance of the Sengoku period that we have now.
I don't think that YC are overpowered in the era we play now. They're powerful and fast but I've seen many instances in which they were repelled by guns, eaten by YS and severly hurt by SA and YA.
There are many counter possibilities to that unit.
In the Mongol era we need to consider a new balance altogether to achieve where both sides can play aggressive or defensive, no matter what side they choose. The current stats can be used as a basis but need to be adjusted to suit the new situation.
Obviously the Mongols will have a focus on powerful cavalry and the Japanese will have stronger infantry. The Japanese should have some early guns, I think, maybe with higher morale than now and perhaps stronger melee capabilities which could be used to even things out a bit.
The scenario is that of an invasion, so maybe we could give the Japanese larger units than the Mongols have?
I'm just thinking out loud here....

Concerning the graphics, it's planned to import the original Shogun graphics for the Mongols as much as possible. There's plenty of space to import all of them and additionally we can consider to use the MTW Mongols. Whatever looks best. If we want to keep a unified look it may be best to use the STW Mongol cav because in MTW the horses are slightly larger and are separate mounts. For the Japanese Cav we are still using the files from STW where rider and mount are in one file.

R'as

Hello,

STW WE is pretty different from VI and the SamWars mod. The main differences here are no honour sellback and no bfu in VI.

The Superior Mongol cavalry can only, surely destroy the Japanese cavalry, when the Japanese have an equal number of cavalry or charge on their own. All Mongol cavalry is superior and a fair deal of the, weak, Korean Infantry is anti-cav.

The Korean Infantry however, is inferior to the Japanese in this game. That means that the Japanese faction can assign some infantry to support its own cavalry and beat both the Korean infantry and the Mongol cavalry.

The Mongols, in this game, have no superior firepower for a classic shootout. Sure, the MLC is very good. And nothing prevented to buy 8 or more cheap H0 ones in STW WE. That tips the balance quite a lot. That's simply impossible to do in SamWars though. My guess is that MLC's cost will be found to need be 750-800 (double the cost of STW WE 1.0 minus the tweak being applied to CA). At 9k you could buy 8 of those and 2 400 Koku support units. Kudos if that can, easily, beat 16 Japanese.

The Skirmisher, yes it's good, but only has very limited range. The amount of ammo should be reduced a bit. It's 4, it should be 3. But that's STW WE, now you can't field 3-4 devastating Skirmishers when also fielding 8 MLC. So, 4 ammo may still be good here. It's something to look at though, they can easily become too effective.


Turn the table: the Mongols are at a disadvantage. They are nearly forced to buy expensive, yet overpowered, cavalry. At the same time they should buy some weak and overpriced infantry to be able to field 16 units.

And the Japanese? When they buy lots of cavalry and send them out to suicide, they'll likely lose. A few will be handy of course, not to charge on their own, but to be kept in reserve. The Japanese will buy more infantry: 4 lsam and 4 ysam are a nice start. 2 CA will be nice for extra firepower, 2 nods to fight the Korean infantry, while slow, 2 ni will be nice to either help destroy Korean infantry or defend against MHC. Leaves 2000 for 2 extra units. JHC general and another ni?


The Japanese did not have firearms at the time, Mongols did have the thunderclap bomb though.

When the unit roster for the Mongol player is expanded, for example by adding another ranged unit, the game will become quite different, and something may need to be changed in favour of the Japanese. That's easy to do without disrupting the Sengoku era, as this is another period.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by R'as al Ghul

In the Mongol era we need to consider a new balance altogether to achieve where both sides can play aggressive or defensive, no matter what side they choose. The current stats can be used as a basis but need to be adjusted to suit the new situation.

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I'm not in favor of changing the stats of existing Japanese units, but you could remove or add units. You could change unit sizes, but it's difficult to balanced different sized units because melee performance is not linearly related to unit size

If you remove the YC from the Mongol era, you don't have to give MHC anti-cav ability. I think this would make it easier to balance the MHC and reduce its cost.

I don't think two eras will help your mod in MP but it seems to be what you want, so I'll go back to other things and leave you to it

......Orda

i would like to see a composite era, with all units, crossbows, mongols, monks, guns,

remember
STW there are no monks, no guns, no ninja in mongols era