Awful, awful naval battles......

Surely I can't be the only one who thinks naval battles on ETW are atrocious, can I?

When my 5th and 6th rates are being beaten by indiamen and fluyts, there must be something wrong.....

:help:

Maybe it's the fact that virtually every shot i take seems to go straight over the enemy ship, rather than into it. How am I supposed to do any damage with that happening? :furious3:


Of course, that still doesn't explain my boarding parties nearly always losing. In one recent battle, 120 men from my 5th rate were beaten by 67 from the enemy's battered sloop. I not only had the advantage of numbers, but also morale as I'd just killed their admiral. :inquisitive:


Someone tell me how that adds up. :wall:


Well, it obviously doesn't. Which is rather a shame as I was really looking forward to naval battles but, TBH, those on Sid Meier's Pirates are infinitely better, if only because it's actually possible to win them.....




Thoughts?

Naval battles get better once you get serious ships. Galleys are bugged and Fluyt/Galleons are straight up better in combat than 5th rates. It's definitely a drag that you can't play a normal naval engagement until you're at endgame tech levels -- sloops and brigs are basically useless against anything but other sloops and brigs. You would expect a trade raiding fleet to be all smaller vessels, but no, the best trade raiding fleet is ... another trade fleet.

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Originally Posted by Ordani

Fluyt/Galleons are straight up better in combat than 5th rates.

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Which is just plain wrong: according to Wiki (A reliable source, obviously :beam:) Fluyts typically carried 12-15 cannon. how a dozen guns can beat 40-odd is beyond me.

They should have just copied the Sid Meier's Pirates! system from the remake. Historically inaccurate as all hell, but unlike ETW's naval battles, they were fun :)

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Originally Posted by Maleficus

Maybe it's the fact that virtually every shot i take seems to go straight over the enemy ship, rather than into it. How am I supposed to do any damage with that happening? :furious3:

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Were you using chain shot by any chance? Chain shot gets fired up into the rigging in order to try and rip it all down. Round shot goes down into the hull, and grape shot gets aimed at deck level.

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Of course, that still doesn't explain my boarding parties nearly always losing. In one recent battle, 120 men from my 5th rate were beaten by 67 from the enemy's battered sloop. I not only had the advantage of numbers, but also morale as I'd just killed their admiral. :inquisitive:

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How about the fact that the defenders have a strong defensive position? From what I've seen, most of the fighting takes place below decks. Storm a building in a land battle and you also take heavy casualties. A building is a lot more open than in a ship. Once boarded they seem to be pretty much a fight to the death, so morale might not come into play.

Try using more grape shot before attempting a boarding :)

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Originally Posted by Murmandamus

Were you using chain shot by any chance? Chain shot gets fired up into the rigging in order to try and rip it all down. Round shot goes down into the hull, and grape shot gets aimed at deck level.

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That problem's with both chain and round.

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Originally Posted by Murmandamus

How about the fact that the defenders have a strong defensive position? From what I've seen, most of the fighting takes place below decks. Storm a building in a land battle and you also take heavy casualties. A building is a lot more open than in a ship. Once boarded they seem to be pretty much a fight to the death, so morale might not come into play.

Try using more grape shot before attempting a boarding :)

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Grape shot seems to have almost no effect. Oh, sure, it might kill 4 or 5 each time, but if I sit there pounding away at them with grape shot for ages, they just respond with round shot and sink me.

Fluyts have 42 guns for some strange reason.

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Originally Posted by A Very Super Market

Fluyts have 42 guns for some strange reason.

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I just sent CA an email suggesting they actually do a little research next time. I doubt they'll pay any attention now that they've made their money, but it had to be said.

I think they made Fluyts fairly strong because UP lacks shipyards in the beginning of the game. And given the importance of UP's overseas possessions, this is a big deal.

I agree, naval battles are very strange right now... i hate fighting them until they are fixed in a patch. Last time i played as United Provinces, at least i think it was united provinces, i abandoned all use of any ship whatsoever except for Fluyts, which are simply amazing in battle, AND can dock at trading posts too!

Brigs and sloops get disbanded at the start of every campaign and i never recruit them afterward... what's the point?

In my first campaign as Britain i made several smaller fleets headed by a 4th rate admiral with brigs and sloops, these fleets were for pirate hunting duties. They were all destroyed.

Also, be careful when you're in the Atlantic close to the new world and all the little islands east of it that Spain/France/GB own, there's a mega pirate fleet that sails around there, a full stack of 20 ships, all of them 4th rates and galleons. They will destroy you, no matter what you bring to the battle.

Which is strange, considering that when you capture the pirate ports the only things you can built are brigs, sloops and indiamen... Makes me wonder where they acquired such a beautiful fleet of such quality ships!

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Originally Posted by Dayve

Also, be careful when you're in the Atlantic close to the new world and all the little islands east of it that Spain/France/GB own, there's a mega pirate fleet that sails around there, a full stack of 20 ships, all of them 4th rates and galleons. They will destroy you, no matter what you bring to the battle.

Which is strange, considering that when you capture the pirate ports the only things you can built are brigs, sloops and indiamen... Makes me wonder where they acquired such a beautiful fleet of such quality ships!

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i know its a minor point but navies are restricted to 14 ships i believe at least in my camp i could never have more than 14 ships in a stack.

Cheers Knoddy

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Originally Posted by Dayve

Brigs and sloops get disbanded at the start of every campaign and i never recruit them afterward... what's the point?

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It's a damn shame that there is zero incentive to ever build a brig or sloop. They really are worthless until there's some changes to the naval combat.

I took 4 sloops up against a Fluyt and got dominated. I thought I was gonna win. I was raking all over the place, but the fluyt had full green bars on port and starboard at the end of the battle. A trade ship should not be able to take 4 military vessels.

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Originally Posted by Dogfish

A trade ship should not be able to take 4 military vessels.

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A light galley shouldn't be able to carry a full stack of troops either, but this is a game and not a historical simulation.

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i know its a minor point but navies are restricted to 14 ships i believe at least in my camp i could never have more than 14 ships in a stack.

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In the beginning you are restricted to 6 ships/stack. I believe the limit increases as naval infrastructure/technology increases, but it could be some other factor as well.

I saw a pirate fleet with every slot filled up, i know i did.

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Originally Posted by Dayve

Which is strange, considering that when you capture the pirate ports the only things you can built are brigs, sloops and indiamen... Makes me wonder where they acquired such a beautiful fleet of such quality ships!

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Did pirates ever build their ships, historically? I thought they were all pretty much captured ships

When you saw all slots full, was that on the bar next to the flag or on the unit panel? The bar next to the flag doesn't show all unit slots.

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Did pirates ever build their ships, historically? I thought they were all pretty much captured ships

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I think that's the point, none of us have the technology at start of the game to build those level of ships so who did they capture them from? :laugh4:

True, a light galley can't carry that many, but you could say that it was the escort for a group of transport ships with incompetent captains, making sure that they didn't all crash into each other.

The fluyt vs. 4 sloops is actually a game-breaking thing that doesn't contribute to gameplay.

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Originally Posted by Miracle

I think they made Fluyts fairly strong because UP lacks shipyards in the beginning of the game. And given the importance of UP's overseas possessions, this is a big deal.

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Bingo. Fluyts and Galleons are both behemoths of doom because otherwise they'd have to give Spain and UP 3rd rates or whatever in their starting lineup to allow them to realistically play a trade game. It's an understandable, if infuriating decision; although I think the better answer would have simply been giving them a bunch of special low-upkeep starting units they couldn't build again, named ships of the line from the period or whatever, to enable them to defend the trading fleets they are supposed to need to survive.

Seriously, compare the upkeep cost of a full fleets of fluyts versus their equivalent 3rd rates. Then keep in mind when your fluyts aren't annihilating squadrons of fast-attack sloops, they are making you thousands of doubloons in profit in the south pacific.

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Originally Posted by Maleficus

Surely I can't be the only one who thinks naval battles on ETW are atrocious, can I?
When my 5th and 6th rates are being beaten by indiamen and fluyts, there must be something wrong.....
:help:
Maybe it's the fact that virtually every shot i take seems to go straight over the enemy ship, rather than into it. How am I supposed to do any damage with that happening? :furious3:
Of course, that still doesn't explain my boarding parties nearly always losing. In one recent battle, 120 men from my 5th rate were beaten by 67 from the enemy's battered sloop. I not only had the advantage of numbers, but also morale as I'd just killed their admiral. :inquisitive:
Someone tell me how that adds up. :wall:
Well, it obviously doesn't. Which is rather a shame as I was really looking forward to naval battles but, TBH, those on Sid Meier's Pirates are infinitely better, if only because it's actually possible to win them.....
Thoughts?

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I'm afraid I have to agree; Naval combat is an unpredictable, buggy farce. The crazy formation bugs where moving one ship out of the line causes the rest of the ships to loose their minds and never be able to reform or hold a formation really sucks away the fun.

The unit strengths are stupidly unbalanced. Fighting against two gun, gunboats with a 4th rate, 5th rate, and 4 brigs/sloops results in my whole fleet sunk and gunboats withstanding 22 gun, point-blank broadsides over and over again.

You never know what you'll get. I try to use legitimate tactics (holding the weather gauge etc.) and sometimes win, sometimes loose without really knowing why. Combine that with the loading times and the result is that I'm over naval combat in this game. I auto resolve every time now. :no:

is it just me or is the .ORG starting to look like the .COM site??

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Originally Posted by crpcarrot

is it just me or is the .ORG starting to look like the .COM site??

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It's heading that way.

Naval battles are a farce as it stands.

I had three 2nd Rates with a good admiral wiped out by 4 Galleons and 2 Fluyts :wall:

I also seem to have gun crews who always aim over the enemy ship while the AI uses special ship-homing cannonballs.

The only use I've found for sloops and brigs is suicide boardings so they blow up and take an enemy ship with them. Not, I believe, a standard naval tactic of the period.

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Originally Posted by crpcarrot

is it just me or is the .ORG starting to look like the .COM site??

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Maybe it wouldn't if CA had got it right........

Well i love them and i've not found controling them too difficult. Although it is a challenge

If you plan it right you can roll the enemy's line right up.

If i'm outnumbered i don't really try and capture untill the odds are better

Brigs and sloops are quite useful for chasing down fleeing ships

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Originally Posted by Dogfish

It's a damn shame that there is zero incentive to ever build a brig or sloop. They really are worthless until there's some changes to the naval combat.

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I wouldn't say that.
I found brigs to be very useful if you need a quick fleet.
They only take one turn to build and if you got multiple shipyards you can build a big fleet up in no time.
Sure it wouldn't be the world's most powerful fleet but enough to keep medium fleets at bay.

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Originally Posted by crpcarrot

is it just me or is the .ORG starting to look like the .COM site??

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At least nobody's threatened to sue CA.

Yet.

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Originally Posted by crpcarrot

is it just me or is the .ORG starting to look like the .COM site??

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Because being a member of the org requires us to mindlessly ignore and deny all discussion and description about issues with Total War games? :inquisitive:

No but the level of tolerance and some ability to appreciate the scope of the project would be nice.

You don't generally accomplish too much in life by simply slating people or organisations off.

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Originally Posted by AussieGiant

No but the level of tolerance and some ability to appreciate the scope of the project would be nice.

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I appreciate and like the game, and still think highly of CA. But some of these issues are facepalmers. I only hope it is the fault of Sega demanding it get out the door, because otherwise I would feel slapped in the face by CA. So I think some level of intolerance is appropriate as well.

So when we're discussing these issues, do we need to include a caveat everytime so that you feel it's more balanced?

"This game is awesome and I love CA, but I beg them to please bless us with a working game. Thank you o mighty CA pleasedonthurtme."

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You don't generally accomplish too much in life by simply slating people or organisations off.

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Really? Bill O'Reilly and Rush Limbaugh don't agree with you. Among many others.

Some people prefer to see the glass half empty, i prefer to see half full.

After years of requesting naval battle for TW we finally get it. Sure the system is flaw but it is a start, hopefully patches and mods will correct the balance.