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This one is interesting.... Is it the chechens again, or has the right-wing movement Putin has indirectly nurtured the last years backfired and attacked the state?
If it is the right-wingers, what will Putin do? Can he attack them without upsetting his own party and powerbase?
"Whoever is responsible, this attack clearly seems aimed not so much at the public, but directly at the ruling class."
Chechens. Ultra-nationalists would seek to bomb minorities, not the demagogic leaders of Russia.
Neither, it were afghans who is willing to take the bet, I put in 1 warning point
Nothing like an Unknown Foe to get people to gather around the leader.
Putin probably doesn't care who it is - but I'm sure he thanks them.
~:smoking:
encore, another attack
Are the "ruling class" exempt from sympathy?
misunderstood
Oh the wonderful irony of an act of anarchy advancing the the ability of despotism.Quote:
Originally Posted by rory_20_uk
Putin and his comrades?Quote:
Originally Posted by CrossLOPER
Yes.
Of course! All power to the workers!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by CrossLOPER
Except when they actually are workers.
Perhaps, but Putin and his comrades don't ride on trains with the ordinary mortals. As always, it's the regular Joes that get blown up.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
It would be a classic propaganda move; introduce a threat; invoke fear; people rally to the banner; dangerous time require strong leadership and extended executive power; all Hail the Chief! (this sounds eerily familiar...many times over)Quote:
Originally Posted by rory_20_uk
I wouldn't doubt Putin or his cronies orchestrated it.
I would. There's no guarantee that people wouldn't rally around Medvedev instead of Putin. Putin wouldn't want Medvedev to become too popular, as Medvedev is already showing some signs of independence and desire to be more than just a figurehead. It could be Chechens, but I'd hesitate to speculate as there's little evidence pointing either way.Quote:
Originally Posted by HopAlongBunny
Sad this. A major terrorist attack, leaving dozens dead.
Russian authorities now suspect North Caucasian groups.
One thing strikes me: a similar attack on this same train narrowly failed two years ago. It was re-tried and succeeded this time. It reminds of the two efforts to bring down the Twin Towers. (Not two planes, but the failed van with explosives in 1994)
A hallmark of a specific kind terrorism?
Afghans? Why?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Cheers !
Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
Yes, this form of terrorism is close to the worst.
Quote:
Russian authorities now suspect North Caucasian groups.
It is a problem because at least three groups of people could be participating in this attack (the Chechens/muslim militants, the neonazis or even which is most puzzling some local separatists - there was one, most likely fake announcement from the 'freedom fighters' demanding the independence of St.Petersburg...).
The train is an attractive target - ruling elit travells using it from St. Petersburg to Moscow - so called 'pieterscy' - so people brought t the capital with Putin and some of his closest allies and friends.
It means it was an attack against the elite of the Kremlin itself - not only against the rich and prosperous, but also against the Putin system itself and since it succeeded it is a powerful blow.
Or perhaps even a humilation because Putin and company promised security above else and the train should be under special protection.
In reality it wasn't - it could be observed during the rescue operation - shortages of equipment and people, lack of most basic help for a long time. Rather close the the avarage in Russian Federation, but the PUBLIC and the terrorists believed differently.
Yes, at that time the terrorists thought much smaller bomb will be enough - this time they were better prepared.Quote:
One thing strikes me: a similar attack on this same train narrowly failed two years ago. It was re-tried and succeeded this time. It reminds of the two efforts to bring down the Twin Towers. (Not two planes, but the failed van with explosives in 1994)
A hallmark of a specific kind terrorism?
Rather the fact the terrorists are learning and the Russian security agencies didn't.
Personally I am worried that once again it means some radical countermove in the Caucasus region.
The authorities will have to react somehow and I'd prefer they 've finally dealt with the worsening condition of the Russian police - the whistle-blowers'' accounts on YourTube and the numerous news about corruption and criminal activities of uniformed services sworn to protect the citizens are pretty horrific.
Perhaps something good will come from this, but during the last several months I became much more pessimistic about it or about any short-term positive changes in Russia in general.
I think it is more probable that the Kremlin will organise some spectacular action against the neo-nazi or something in the Caucasus (Daghestan, Ingushetia... damn the whole region became a warzone...) and another nonsense campaign about western imperialism plus a PR session with Mr.Putin sent to the Moon, diving in the Mariana Trench or saving an orphan from a bloodthirsty mutant bear while Mr. Medvedev will talk about another plan of modernisation and overtaking the USA...
One Russian newspaper already managed to report that the terrorists were funded by... Poland.
P.S. I wonder how much the ORG changed since the last time I've been here.
I wouldn't normally come to your aid but I have to admit that just isn't possibleQuote:
Originally Posted by cegorach
oh, and welcome back to the trenches
The train of thought that led to that idea must be confused by some sort of mental sickness.Quote:
One Russian newspaper already managed to report that the terrorists were funded by... Poland.
:jumping::cheerleader::jumping::cheerleader::jumping::cheerleader::jumping:
Cegorach has returned!
Sounds familiar to the SuperSarko way of politics. :2thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by Cegorach
Poland was right. Louis was wrong.Quote:
One Russian newspaper already managed to report that the terrorists were funded by... Poland.
The .org is going strong. The Backroom has changed lots. Not all of it for the better. To be honest, the Backroom is a bit of a shadow of its former self. Yes, I too am to blame.Quote:
P.S. I wonder how much the ORG changed since the last time I've been here.
I remember when it was the best political forum on the entire internet. Great days. The Backroom still has its moments and some great characters, but too many have left or barely post anymore.
"I wouldn't doubt Putin or his cronies orchestrated it." Funny this, remind me something. Just put Bush instead of Putin...
One! Really!? Out of 450,000 newspapers in Russia? No, it can't be... That's like... huge... I mean it's more than... none.Quote:
Originally Posted by cegorach
Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
Had to happen, eventually. Yes, I will say it - I am addict...:yes:
True, but more boring, despite being somehow more imaginative -Quote:
Sounds familiar to the SuperSarko way of politics. :2thumbsup:
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Quote:
The .org is going strong. The Backroom has changed lots. Not all of it for the better. To be honest, the Backroom is a bit of a shadow of its former self. Yes, I too am to blame.
I remember when it was the best political forum on the entire internet. Great days. The Backroom still has its moments and some great characters, but too many have left or barely post anymore.
Whatever, after a year of (limited) involvement in political discussions in Polish internet - as Law and Justice is stuck to suffer another election defeat its most vocal supporters are not even pathetic anymore, they are too bad for this. It is no fun anymore.
Add to that total tabloidisation of the media (just like everywhere else...), almost total domination of Tusk's Civic Platform and suicidal attitude of colourless left wing parties.
It is so boring despite media frenzy. It is more surreal than the American healthcare debate, but dull.
Even Swine Flu failed (people don't care) and recession forgot about Poland (some said we've screwed this crisis up).
I am not saying it is bad, but getting used to takes some time. :juggle2:
So I guess even those moments will be priceless.:yes: I must admit that the Camel Wars thread looks good for the beginning.
@Sarmatian
I love you too Sarmatian.Quote:
One Russian newspaper already managed to report that the terrorists were funded by... Poland.
One! Really!? Out of 450,000 newspapers in Russia? No, it can't be... That's like... huge... I mean it's more than... none.
But really it is like a never ending ritual also when coming from officials.
How was that, oh yes terrorist attack in Ingushetia were organised by the USA, the UK and Israel according to its current president.
I am not saying they are not entitled to some little scaremongering, everyone loves that.
Still...for the love of God they could abandon some most obvious cliches. It is like more grotesque repetition of Khruschov era propaganda.
It is the 21st century so they could at least find someone or something else...
Don't worry mate. Despite our arguments and our disagreements, I like you and respect you. I look forward to boring everybody else when it happens again. And, let's face it, Poland deserves a better representative than Krook on the .Org... So, even though my post probably didn't sound like it, I'm glad you're back. So, officially, welcome back :balloon2:Quote:
Originally Posted by cegorach
On topic, I bet there's a newspaper in Russia that blames aliens for the attack, one that blames dwarves and two that insist it was a wrath of God.
That's the beauty of (semi)free press...
I doubt Putin did it, but Bush and Putin were very, very different leaders. Such as one being a quasi-dictator and one not being one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brenus
Krook... alone... Need to digest the information...Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarmatian
Of course, but I was more concerned about the tedious repetion of the same nonsense.Quote:
On topic, I bet there's a newspaper in Russia that blames aliens for the attack, one that blames dwarves and two that insist it was a wrath of God.
That's the beauty of (semi)free press...
I am not really concerned that someone blamed Poland for something in Russia - that is expectable and happens on regulr basis from the time of Ivan the Terrible, just like threatening us with rockets (every year since 1993) - a part of neighbourhood and a local custom.
It is rather more disturbing that foreigners were/are/will be blamed and the truth about the attacks once again, most likely ( I wish I could say probably, but in this case I am pessimistic) will remain unknown.
It is Nord-Ost attack again and again and the corruption in the security agencies becomes worse while conflict in the Caucasus spreads to new regions.
I hope that things are getting worse only to get better, but as I said above I am much more pessimistic than 18 months ago.
Nothing to be concerned about indeed. I learned the Kremlin blames the Elysee too.Quote:
Originally Posted by cegorach
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarmatian
He's talking about tinfoil hats there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars
Some thoughts about this attack....
1. Does "Russian authorities suspect group x" actually mean anything at all? Remember the train bombing in Spain and who was blamed for it first? When the president of a large and respected EU member can lie his arse off when it comes to this, how can we honestly trust Putin and his corrupt gang? Does it mean anything at all when they blame it on the Chechens? Having the Chechens responsible is gold for Putin, as it would justify another round of terror and oppression in that region...
2. The Neo-Nazi's are part of Putin's powerbase. His party's youth organization is extremely xenophobic and openly sympathetic to the gangs who beat up minorities. Will he risk alienating his own supporters even if they are responsible for this? I don't see that happening.... Also, if right-wingers are behind this, does that mean Putin is losing his grip on the organizations he has nurtured? Have his actions backfired on him?
3. That aid was slow and inefficient is no surprise in Russia. It would've been a mystery if it actually worked like it should. People are so afraid of the consequences should they do screw up that they are too afraid to do anything at all.
There's no shortage of suspects, that's for sure, but I think it's extremists/separatists.
This doesn't make sense really. If they are a part of his power base, if he and his associates have been nurturing them, why would they attack them? They would target minorities, human rights organizations, that sort of thingQuote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
It's also equally silly saying that Putin or someone close to him organized it to gain support. That would be extremely stupid thing to do. That's what dictators do when they're losing their grip, not when their support is sky-high. He'd have nothing to gain and everything to lose. I don't personally believe Putin would do such a thing any more than I believe 9-11 was organized by Bush, but for the sake of argument... Many people may think that Putin is nothing but a power-hungry nationalistic dictator but everyone would agree that he is not an idiot.
Will we know the truth? Will this be blamed on foreigners? Possibly, but I'd like to remind people of the Kursk story. The most advanced Russian submarine sank after a loud bang and American submarine was seen speeding away to nato waters immediately after that, followed by Russian planes who had to turn away when they reached foreign airspace. Submarine was put in a drydock and Russian officials were denied permission to inspect the outer hull of the submarine. It couldn't have been a military secret issue as that type of submarine was photographed many times and photographs were published in popular magazines.
It all looks like a perfect setup to blame it on the foreigners, but what did Putin do? He ordered an investigation that involved raising the hull of the submarine out of the water and assigned it bigger budget than entire Russian navy had got. The evidence they've got didn't point on a crash with another submarine, or didn't point conclusively enough and the government didn't pursue it.
I'm not saying this can't be misused for propaganda (as Cegorach said, corruption is quite rampant in Russia, especially in the police), but some people really need to learn to turn on their brains before going "ZOMG, evil Russians/Putin"...
Part of the popularity of Putin and Medvedev is based on their law-and-order image. On their being tough against terrorists.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarmatian
This attack is a major dent in their reputation. It shows that Putin can't even protect his own, his own elite travelling between Petersburg and Moscow.