The Jewish Lobby

Over the course of the last year or so, I've been entertaining ever more negative views of the state of Israel and particularly the Jewish effort in the United States to advance Israel's strategic interests at the expense of America's. I've even allowed some ugly tin-foil-hat type thoughts involving Zionism and disproportionate Jewish power to cross my mind.

I came to the realization that my unwavering support of Israel was based primarily on my extreme dislike for the Palestinians and their activities- dancing in the streets after 9/11, suicide bombing their children, suicide bombing other people's children, etc. There's no doubt, they're a pretty terrible group of people on the whole and have been consumed by the Islamist culture that I despise.

However, the enemy of my enemy is not always my friend. Jews in America, acting on behalf of Zionism, may have done far more to damage America than Islamic extremism ever has.

So let's discuss. Here's a good starting point.

Quote:

---

THE ISRAEL LOBBY AND U.S. FOREIGN POLICY

U.S. foreign policy shapes events in every corner of the globe. Nowhere is this truer than in the Middle East, a region of recurring instability and enormous strategic importance. Most recently, the Bush Administration’s attempt to transform the region into a community of democracies has helped produce a resilient insurgency in Iraq, a sharp rise in world oil prices, and terrorist bombings in Madrid, London, and Amman. With so much at stake for so many, all countries need to understand the forces that drive U.S. Middle East policy.

The U.S. national interest should be the primary object of American foreign policy. For the past several decades, however, and especially since the Six Day War in 1967, the centerpiece of U.S. Middle East policy has been its relationship with Israel. The combination of unwavering U.S. support for Israel and the related effort to spread democracy throughout the region has inflamed Arab and Islamic opinion and jeopardized U.S. security.

This situation has no equal in American political history. Why has the United States been willing to set aside its own security in order to advance the interests of another state? One might assume that the bond between the two countries is based on shared strategic interests or compelling moral imperatives. As we show below, however, neither of those explanations can account for the remarkable level of material and diplomatic support that the United States provides to Israel.


Instead, the overall thrust of U.S. policy in the region is due almost entirely to U.S. domestic politics, and especially to the activities of the “Israel Lobby.” Other special interest groups have managed to skew U.S. foreign policy in directions they favored, but no lobby has managed to divert U.S. foreign policy as far from what the American national interest would otherwise suggest, while simultaneously convincing Americans that U.S. and Israeli interests are essentially identical.1

---

Quote:

---

Israel and the Iraq War

Pressure from Israel and the Lobby was not the only factor behind the U.S. decision to attack Iraq in March 2003, but it was a critical element. Some Americans believe that this was a “war for oil,” but there is hardly any direct evidence to support this claim. Instead, the war was motivated in good part by a desire to make Israel more secure. According to Philip Zelikow, a member of the President’s Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board (2001‐2003), executive director of the 9/11 Commission, and now Counselor to Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, the “real threat” from Iraq was not a threat to the United States.139 The “unstated threat” was the “threat against Israel,” Zelikow told a University of Virginia audience in September 2002, noting further that “the American government doesn’t want to lean too hard on it rhetorically, because it is not a popular sell.”

On August 16, 2002, eleven days before Vice President Cheney kicked off the campaign for war with a hard‐line speech to the Veterans of Foreign Wars, the Washington Post reported that “Israel is urging U.S. officials not to delay a military strike against Iraq’s Saddam Hussein.”140 By this point, according to Sharon, strategic coordination between Israel and the U.S. had reached “unprecedented dimensions,” and Israeli intelligence officials had given Washington a variety of alarming reports about Iraq’s WMD programs.141 As one retired Israeli general later put it, “Israeli intelligence was a full partner to the picture presented by American and British intelligence regarding Iraq’s non‐conventional capabilities.”142

Israeli leaders were deeply distressed when President Bush decided to seek U.N. Security Council authorization for war in September, and even more worried when Saddam agreed to let U.N. inspectors back into Iraq, because these developments seemed to reduce the likelihood of war.

Foreign Minister Shimon Peres told reporters in September 2002 that “the campaign against Saddam Hussein is a must. Inspections and inspectors are good for decent people, but dishonest people can overcome easily inspections and inspectors.”143

At the same time, former Prime Minister Ehud Barak wrote a New York Times op‐ed warning that “the greatest risk now lies in inaction.”144 His predecessor, Benjamin Netanyahu, published a similar piece in the Wall Street Journal entitled “The Case for Toppling Saddam.”145 Netanyahu declared, “Today nothing less than dismantling his regime will do,” adding that “I believe I speak for the overwhelming majority of Israelis in supporting a pre‐emptive strike against Saddam’s regime.” Or as Ha’aretz reported in February 2003: “The [Israeli] military and political leadership yearns for war in Iraq.”146

But as Netanyahu suggests, the desire for war was not confined to Israel’s leaders. Apart from Kuwait, which Saddam conquered in 1990, Israel was the only country in the world where both the politicians and the public enthusiastically favored war.147 As journalist Gideon Levy observed at the time, “Israel is the only country in the West whose leaders support the war unreservedly and where no alternative opinion is voiced.”148 In fact, Israelis were so gung‐ho for war that their allies in America told them to damp down their hawkish rhetoric, lest it look like the war was for Israel.149

---

Quote:

---

The Great Silencer

No discussion of how the Lobby operates would be complete without examining one of its most powerful weapons: the charge of anti‐Semitism. Anyone who criticizes Israeli actions or says that pro‐Israel groups have significant influence over U.S. Middle East policy—an influence that AIPAC celebrates—stands a good chance of getting labeled an anti‐Semite. In fact, anyone who says that there is an Israel Lobby runs the risk of being charged with anti‐Semitism, even though the Israeli media themselves refer to America’s “Jewish Lobby.” In effect, the Lobby boasts of its own power and then attacks anyone who calls attention to it. This tactic is very effective, because anti‐Semitism is loathsome and no responsible person wants to be accused of it.

...

This is why pro‐Israel forces, when pressed to go beyond assertion, claim that there is a ‘new anti‐Semitism’, which they equate with criticism of Israel.112 In other words criticize Israeli policy and you are by definition an anti‐Semite. When the synod of the Church of England recently voted to divest from Caterpillar Inc on the grounds that Caterpillar manufactures the bulldozers used to demolish Palestinian homes, the Chief Rabbi complained that it would ʹhave the most adverse repercussions on ... Jewish‐Christian relations in Britainʹ, while Rabbi Tony Bayfield, the head of the Reform movement, said: “ʹThere is a clear problem of anti‐Zionist ‐ verging on anti‐Semitic ‐ attitudes emerging in the grass 25
roots, and even in the middle ranks of the Church.”113 However, the Church was neither guilty of anti‐Zionism nor anti‐Semitism; it was merely protesting Israeli policy.114

Critics are also accused of holding Israel to an unfair standard or questioning its right to exist. But these are bogus charges too. Western critics of Israel hardly ever question its right to exist. Instead, they question its behavior towards the Palestinians, which is a legitimate criticism: Israelis question it themselves. Nor is Israel being judged unfairly. Rather, Israeli treatment of the Palestinians elicits criticism because it is contrary to widely‐accepted human rights norms and international law, as well as the principle of national self‐determination. And it is hardly the only state that has faced sharp criticism on these grounds.

---

Essentially, Jews in the United States have played on American's (inexplicable) guilt over the Holocaust and religious fundamentalism to sacrifice American lives and American treasure to achieve Israeli foreign policy goals. With friends like these...

I'm going to refrain from Godwining this thread. Just know that my tact is causing me physical pain.

Americas relationship with Israel is far from ideal but so are most of Americas alliances not based in WEurope. Israel at best has been aloof and standoffish, it is a well documented fact that Israel will lie to our faces when something is stood to be gained, of course not acknowledging the fact America does this all the time as well would be intellectualy disingenous on my part. I disagree with many of Israels tactics and cringe at their human rights abuses but the other side of the coin is even less appealing. This puts us squarley in the relam of putting murder on some sort of bizzaro sliding scale. Unfortuanly this is real life and not all villians or friends are the caricitures we so desperatly need them to be

Israel does more than pay lip service to having a functioning democracy in the region and they are a counterweight to Iran superhappyfuntimeland. This makes an alliance with them vital and necesary. Israel does have it's fair share of insanity but I trust the Israelis to do a better job of keeping there crazies in line, I also feel like many more Isrealis would have no problem putting down their guns where as many Arabs see this as a 0 sum game. That is a major difference to me.

I do cringe at how buddy buddy the lobby has become but I do the same thing with the corn farmers. Lobbies and their power are entierly seperate issue. The Isreali lobby is merley a symptom of the creeping corpratism in America. I am also a bit perplexed you seem to buy into the tin foil hat crowd. Jews due tend to stick together and as a result have much of the same ignorance loged against them b/c of that. People fear what they don't quite understand and the jew in America has always been 1 foot in and 1 foot out from a WASPs eyes. So of course when one sees there is an entire country with the same kind of people in it, such outlandish conclusions are naturally drawn. I certainly don't think the lobby has been more destructive than your umberlla definition of islamic terrorism, nor do I think they are even close to being our worst ally.

These "authors" overplay there hand when they say American interests take a backseat to Israeli ones. Maybe THEIR idea of what Americas interests are do, but Americas has clearly demonstrated Isreal is crucial our stated interests.

I would say though Isreal should not be a road block in Americas effort in supporting flowering claims toward democracy in the region and I don't think it has.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Strike For The South

I'm going to refrain from Godwining this thread. Just know that my tact is causing me physical pain.

Americas relationship with Israel is far from ideal but so are most of Americas alliances not based in WEurope. Israel at best has been aloof and standoffish, it is a well documented fact that Israel will lie to our faces when something is stood to be gained, of course not acknowledging the fact America does this all the time as well would be intellectualy disingenous on my part. I disagree with many of Israels tactics and cringe at their human rights abuses but the other side of the coin is even less appealing. This puts us squarley in the relam of putting murder on some sort of bizzaro sliding scale. Unfortuanly this is real life and not all villians or friends are the caricitures we so desperatly need them to be

Israel does more than pay lip service to having a functioning democracy in the region and they are a counterweight to Iran superhappyfuntimeland. This makes an alliance with them vital and necesary. Israel does have it's fair share of insanity but I trust the Israelis to do a better job of keeping there crazies in line, I also feel like many more Isrealis would have no problem putting down their guns where as many Arabs see this as a 0 sum game. That is a major difference to me.

I do cringe at how buddy buddy the lobby has become but I do the same thing with the corn farmers. Lobbies and their power are entierly seperate issue. The Isreali lobby is merley a symptom of the creeping corpratism in America. I am also a bit perplexed you seem to buy into the tin foil hat crowd. Jews due tend to stick together and as a result have much of the same ignorance loged against them b/c of that. People fear what they don't quite understand and the jew in America has always been 1 foot in and 1 foot out from a WASPs eyes. So of course when one sees there is an entire country with the same kind of people in it, such outlandish conclusions are naturally drawn. I certainly don't think the lobby has been more destructive than your umberlla definition of islamic terrorism, nor do I think they are even close to being our worst ally.

These "authors" overplay there hand when they say American interests take a backseat to Israeli ones. Maybe THEIR idea of what Americas interests are do, but Americas has clearly demonstrated Isreal is crucial our stated interests.

I would say though Isreal should not be a road block in Americas effort in supporting flowering claims toward democracy in the region and I don't think it has.

---

Huh this is possibly the best post I have read from Strike of late. I agree and will simply let his own words speak for me.

Israel is a convenient marriage. We are not married for love but none of the other possible suitors are any better, indeed most are worse.

The whole you-can't-criticize-Isreal-or-else-you-are-a-anti-semite has always bugged me and still does. I guess by acknowledging that the NAACP exists then we are also racists, as anyone who speaks of the Isreali lobby in Washington is an anti-semite. I am also bugged by politicians who accuse other politicians whenever they don't cow tow to anything and everything Israel does, under the guise that Isreal is "one of our staunchest and long-time allies" which is kind of like calling your Culligan man your best friend. It's sort of a one-sided relationship, and I am obviosuly an anti-semite for comparing a jewish entity to someone who sells something.

I also don't understand why they get their very own word for racism, it's not fair to people who are racists.

Now pardon me, I'm having Bagels with Helen Thomas this afternoon.

I agree. Strike should staff off the sauce more often ;)

I think that other factors are:

Many Jews are rich. Money matters as it is linked to power.
There is only one Jewish state, so the message is very focused. With Christianity / Islam / Misc, there are more than one states, so the message from supporters gets diluted: Saudi arabia no more wants a powerful Iran than Israel does to choose one easy example.

Palestinians are not alone in their ways. I recall the jubilation on the streets in USA when Osama was killed (or is that somehow justified as it's different...?) I think that using children as suicide bombers is utterly abhorrent, but then shelling children with Phosphorous rounds isn't nice either (I guess we're on to Strike's sliding scale of atrocities where it's not as bad when allies are doing it).

~:smoking:

I would be happy to discuss an Isreal lobby.

However, I will never discuss a jewish lobby.

Edit: also, you had "unwavering support of Israel" a year ago? I remember you making an identical thread about "the jewish lobby" before. Methinks the resident fascist is being a bit dishonest here.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Strike For The South

I'm going to refrain from Godwining this thread. Just know that my tact is causing me physical pain.

---

I don't blame you. Jews pulling strings behind the curtains at the highest levels of government in pursuit of Zionism. It sounds like something that's been ripped straight out of Germany in the '30s. It is also true.

Quote:

---

I disagree with many of Israels tactics and cringe at their human rights abuses but the other side of the coin is even less appealing.

---

What is the other side of the coin, really?

After the Soviet Union fell, one of Israel's big selling points was that it was the one nation in the region that was not made up of people who largely hate America, yet the hatred for America on the Arab Street is inextricably linked to America's unqualified support of Israel.

It's really quite brilliant, in an evil sort of way. The more cavalier Israel acts in the region, the more Arabs hate it and its great benefactor, and the more Arabs express anti-Americanism, the more money we feel compelled to give Israel (despite the fact that they do not support our wars in the Middle East in any identifiable way).

Quote:

---

Israel does more than pay lip service to having a functioning democracy in the region and they are a counterweight to Iran superhappyfuntimeland. This makes an alliance with them vital and necesary.

---

This is common mantra, but doesn't exactly pass the smell test.

First, on democracy. What does their form of government have to do with our foreign policy? Are we compelled to lend our support to every democracy in the world when it faces limited democratic or authoritarian regimes, regardless of said democracy's actions? That's certainly not been our policy when other democracies have been threatened by authoritarianism - not that Israel has actually been threatened by authoritarianism for quite some time.

As to the counterweight argument, you must mean Saudi Arabia? Israel is a counterweight to nothing. The country has no sway and no influence beyond being able to menace its immediate neighbors with a superior military. It's distance from Iran makes that military effectively useless, though, leaving only soft power - of which Israel has effectively none in the region.

Saudi Arabia, the home of Sunni Islam and a large, wealthy, and powerful Arab state is the natural counterweight to Iran.

In any event, Israel is clearly no counterweight to Iran for the US, but is the US a counterweight to Iran for Israel?

Quote:

---

Putting Iran in the Crosshairs

Israelis tend to describe every threat in the starkest terms, but Iran is widely seen as their most dangerous enemy because it is the most likely adversary to acquire nuclear weapons. Virtually all Israelis regard an Islamic country in the Middle East with nuclear weapons as an existential threat. As Israeli Defense Minister Binyamin Ben‐Eliezer remarked one month before the Iraq war: “Iraq is a problem …. But you should understand, if you ask me, today Iran is more dangerous than Iraq.”203


Sharon began publicly pushing the United States to confront Iran in November 2002, in a high profile interview in The Times (London).204 Describing Iran as the “center of world terror,” and bent on acquiring nuclear weapons, he declared that the Bush Administration should put the strong arm on Iran “the day after” it conquered Iraq. In late April 2003, Ha’aretz reported that the Israeli ambassador in Washington was now calling for regime change in Iran.205 The overthrow of Saddam, he noted, was “not enough.” In his words, America “has to follow through. We still have great threats of that magnitude coming from Syria, coming from Iran.”

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Strike

Israel does have it's fair share of insanity but I trust the Israelis to do a better job of keeping there crazies in line, I also feel like many more Isrealis would have no problem putting down their guns where as many Arabs see this as a 0 sum game. That is a major difference to me.

---

Really? Did you miss the Palestinian Papers?

Quote:

---

I do cringe at how buddy buddy the lobby has become but I do the same thing with the corn farmers.

---

The corn lobby has yet to compel us into a disastrous war in the Middle East.

Quote:

---

I certainly don't think the lobby has been more destructive than your umberlla definition of islamic terrorism,

---

Why?

Quote:

---

nor do I think they are even close to being our worst ally.

---

Then which nation is? Saudi Arabia's support of Wahhabism in the '90's comes to mind, but they seem to have genuinely realized that didn't turn out well.

Quote:

---

These "authors" overplay there hand when they say American interests take a backseat to Israeli ones.

---

Your quotations imply condescension and/or criticism of their abilities. Is there a reason for that other than your disagreement with their conclusions?

Quote:

---

Maybe THEIR idea of what Americas interests are do, but Americas has clearly demonstrated Isreal is crucial our stated interests.

---

How has that been clearly demonstrated? Israel has no oil, no real power or influence in the region, and does nothing to advance our interests in the region. In fact, a very strong, even undeniable, argument exists that it has done the exact opposite.

No, the only people's interests that our unwavering support of Israel advance are Zionist American Jews who, inexplicably, hold a ridiculous amount of sway over our government.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HoreTore

I would be happy to discuss an Isreal lobby.

However, I will never discuss a jewish lobby.

Edit: also, you had "unwavering support of Israel" a year ago? I remember you making an identical thread about "the jewish lobby" before. Methinks the resident fascist is being a bit dishonest here.

---

Really? I don't remember such a thread. I don't even think I was active this time last year. I've defended Israel on this board for years...

Edit: And upon looking in my profile to 'find all threads started by' (why is the backroom still not searchable?), I discovered that I am still a member of the long-defunct Israel supporters group. :rolleyes:

the US - Israel relationship is for sure a strange one...and at times the level of support offered by the US government seems counter-producer to it's own goals.

part of it can be explained simply by politicians sucking up to voting blocks that are electorally important, i.e:
- voters of jewish descent - for obvious reasons
- evangelical cristians - for religions reasons

then I guess you will have actual lobbys aplying pressure also, like israel itself, the weapons manufacturers...etc.

Aye, don't forget a lot of the pressure with Israel doesn't come from the Jews, but from WASP's of the more Evangelical variety.

I saw a documentary about how there are big businesses in Israel which get these Evangelicals coming and staying over and helping out with some of the communities, one kid was even talking about joining the IDF. :/

In terms of how useful they prove themselves to be, it might be a good idea to invest some more in Turkey as your ally in the Mid East. Unlike Israel, Turkey has shown itself able to effect meaningful change in the region through diplomacy instead of gross violence and it actively aims to be a centre piece of economic and diplomatic activity in the region. It was Turkey along with Brazil and India which got Iran to agree to a uranium recycling deal on Turkish soil.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger

I don't blame you. Jews pulling strings behind the curtains at the highest levels of government in pursuit of Zionism. It sounds like something that's been ripped straight out of Germany in the '30s. It is also true.

---

No it's not

Quote:

---

What is the other side of the coin, really?

After the Soviet Union fell, one of Israel's big selling points was that it was the one nation in the region that was not made up of people who largely hate America, yet the hatred for America on the Arab Street is inextricably linked to America's unqualified support of Israel.

It's really quite brilliant, in an evil sort of way. The more cavalier Israel acts in the region, the more Arabs hate it and its great benefactor, and the more Arabs express anti-Americanism, the more money we feel compelled to give Israel (despite the fact that they do not support our wars in the Middle East in any identifiable way).

---

The populism that infects the Arab world has no basis in facts or reason. Your average man on the street belives the most insane propaganda and the force feeding generally begins at birth. You reference a common theme popular with school boy liberatarians but even if we pulled out everything tmrw, they would find a new reason to hate us. The Arab world loves conspiracy theories and a massive US pullout would be dripping with them

Besides, outside of postruing very few educated Arabs want Israel gone, they know it isn't feasable. We can still work with the Arab countries on an intra governemnt level, the propaganda they feed their masses non withstanding.

I must also express my shock that one of the most ardent supporters of realpolitik on this forum is begining to subscribe to the "If we just leave them alone" theory. Blowback is a real thing but to breakdown the geo-political struggle in the ME in such simple terms is naive and counter productive

Quote:

---

This is common mantra, but doesn't exactly pass the smell test.

---

Awwww my little Fraulien, using American colluiialisms :kiss:

Quote:

---

First, on democracy. What does their form of government have to do with our foreign policy? Are we compelled to lend our support to every democracy in the world when it faces limited democratic or authoritarian regimes, regardless of said democracy's actions? That's certainly not been our policy when other democracies have been threatened by authoritarianism - not that Israel has actually been threatened by authoritarianism for quite some time.

---

I think America has an interest in supporting democratic regimes all around the world, now this does not necersarily mean we should lend them a large amount of fiscal or tech support but Isreal has, on some level, expressed an interest in becoming a functioning democratic state. Those states tend to like us more.

Quote:

---

As to the counterweight argument, you must mean Saudi Arabia? Israel is a counterweight to nothing. The country has no sway and no influence beyond being able to menace its immediate neighbors with a superior military. It's distance from Iran makes that military effectively useless, though, leaving only soft power - of which Israel has effectively none in the region.

Saudi Arabia, the home of Sunni Islam and a large, wealthy, and powerful Arab state is the natural counterweight to Iran.

---

Saudi Arabia is the home of Whabism and the monatery center for int'l terrorism. The fact we are on speaking terms with is only a reflection of the fact that both of our respective countries desperatly want the status quo to ensure the oil flows. They are an absolutely repugnant regime and it pains me we are forced to do buisness with them. If Iran wanted to they could roll into Riyadh tmrw and no one could stop them.

Expoliting the divisons in Islam works to a point but not while Israel is still there. I fail to see how a country with no hard power offers a real counterweight to Iran. Other than secratrianism.

Speaking of Americas soft power in the ME is kind of a moot point right now

Quote:

---

In any event, Israel is clearly no counterweight to Iran for the US, but is the US a counterweight to Iran for Israel?

---

How is Israel not a counterweight to Iran? It's the worst kept secert this side of Judea that Israel has nukes. They have also stated they will not allow Iran to persue its program

Quote:

---

Really? Did you miss the Palestinian Papers?

---

No, I never said the Israeli crazies weren't trying there damndest and as long as the status quo remains perpetual war, they will have support

Quote:

---

The corn lobby has yet to compel us into a disastrous war in the Middle East.

---

OBL and Neo-Conservatism compeled us into war. I'm sure Israel is pleased with what happend but the Isreali lobby can't pull something like that off. I'm willing to concede that they were a minor third partner but inconsequntial

Quote:

---

Why?

---

Becuase the spectere of Islamic terrorism is the boogeyman that whips the American masses up. Israel has been using the same hardline rhetoric about the region since Carter, it is only after 9/11 did we really start to listen to them. No terror attacks and Israeli policies take a backseat

Quote:

---

Then which nation is? Saudi Arabia's support of Wahhabism in the '90's comes to mind, but they seem to have genuinely realized that didn't turn out well.

---

Pakistan, SA, Egypt. In that order

Quote:

---

Your quotations imply condescension and/or criticism of their abilities. Is there a reason for that other than your disagreement with their conclusions?

---

I am upset because the authors imply there is a set of American forigen policy goals that take a backseat to Israels bidding. When Americas forigen policy is what the American government says it is. And every president since Carter has made Israel a centerpeice of that policy.

Quote:

---

How has that been clearly demonstrated? Israel has no oil, no real power or influence in the region, and does nothing to advance our interests in the region. In fact, a very strong, even undeniable, argument exists that it has done the exact opposite.

---

I think both of us need to define what Americas endgame in the ME is. Lately both the Obama and Bush adminstrations have said they want friendly democracies in the region and as of right now very few countries tick that box. And Isreal is the only one with projectable power

Quote:

---

No, the only people's interests that our unwavering support of Israel advance are Zionist American Jews who, inexplicably, hold a ridiculous amount of sway over our government.

---

You are a grown man who has demonstrated very good critical thinking skills. Please use them.

I would also like to state that of course the Isreali lobby holds sway in the government, many well funded lobbies do. To assume though that they are pulling the forigen policy strings is walking a thin line

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Strike For The South

I would also like to state that of course the Isreali lobby holds sway in the government, many well funded lobbies do.

---

There are lots of lobbies and lobbyists; to throw AIPAC in with the thousands of other special interest groups is dishonest. They are easily one of the three most powerful lobbies on the Hill, along with AARP and the NRA. Those are the three lobbies you do NOT mess with if you want to keep your cozy congressional/senate seat.

The Onion, as per usual, dishes more truth than the corporate media:

Government Official Who Makes Perfectly Valid, Well-Reasoned Point Against Israel Forced To Resign

WASHINGTON—State Department diplomat Nelson Milstrand, who appeared on CNN last week and offered an informed, thoughtful analysis implying that Israel could perhaps exercise more restraint toward Palestinian moderates in disputed territories, was asked to resign Tuesday. “The United States deeply regrets any harm Mr. Milstrand’s careful, even-tempered, and factually accurate remarks may have caused our democratic partner in the Middle East,” Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said in an unequivocal condemnation of the veteran foreign-service officer’s perfectly reasonable statements. “U.S. policy toward Israel continues to be one of unconditional support and fawning sycophancy.” Milstrand, 63, will reportedly appear at an AIPAC conference to offer a full apology as soon as his trial concludes and his divorce is finalized.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger

Really? I don't remember such a thread. I don't even think I was active this time last year. I've defended Israel on this board for years...

Edit: And upon looking in my profile to 'find all threads started by' (why is the backroom still not searchable?), I discovered that I am still a member of the long-defunct Israel supporters group. :rolleyes:

---

Having looked through all the threads started by you, I can't find a thread like that. Sorry, must've mixed you up with someone else, because I'm damned sure I've seen a thread just like this here before...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rhyfylwyr

Aye, don't forget a lot of the pressure with Israel doesn't come from the Jews, but from WASP's of the more Evangelical variety.

I saw a documentary about how there are big businesses in Israel which get these Evangelicals coming and staying over and helping out with some of the communities, one kid was even talking about joining the IDF. :/

---

there are evangelical Christian's that belief that when the hypothetical second coming of Christ takes place in order for the Christians be saved (or raptured) Israel must exist....they have some role to play....not entirely sure what particular passage of the bible is supposed to mean this....but hey...people believe in silly stuff.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ronin

there are evangelical Christian's that belief that when the hypothetical second coming of Christ takes place in order for the Christians be saved (or raptured) Israel must exist....they have some role to play....not entirely sure what particular passage of the bible is supposed to mean this....but hey...people believe in silly stuff.

---

It's in the Book of Revelation, Israel will be restored and then destroyed by agents of the Devil, at which point God's true children will turn to him and the rest will be cast down.

So, actually, the Evangelicals are deliberately setting the Jews up for a fall and the Jews think they're playing the Evangelicals for fools (because they think Revelation is a false prophecy). I can't think of a more dysfunctional or messed up relationship.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Strike For The South

The populism that infects the Arab world has no basis in facts or reason.

---

Are you sure?

Quote:

---

Your average man on the street belives the most insane propaganda and the force feeding generally begins at birth. You reference a common theme popular with school boy liberatarians but even if we pulled out everything tmrw, they would find a new reason to hate us. The Arab world loves conspiracy theories and a massive US pullout would be dripping with them

Besides, outside of postruing very few educated Arabs want Israel gone, they know it isn't feasable. We can still work with the Arab countries on an intra governemnt level, the propaganda they feed their masses non withstanding.

I must also express my shock that one of the most ardent supporters of realpolitik on this forum is begining to subscribe to the "If we just leave them alone" theory. Blowback is a real thing but to breakdown the geo-political struggle in the ME in such simple terms is naive and counter productive

---

Where did I endorse such a theory? :inquisitive:

In any event, as such an ardent supporter of realpolitik, how could I not eventually question our relationship with Israel - specifically the benefits we are getting for our substantial investment in the country?

Quote:

---

I think America has an interest in supporting democratic regimes all around the world, now this does not necersarily mean we should lend them a large amount of fiscal or tech support but Isreal has, on some level, expressed an interest in becoming a functioning democratic state. Those states tend to like us more.

---

How is it in our interest to support Israel simply because it is a democracy? Communism is dead and democracy is on the rise in the region.

Quote:

---

Saudi Arabia is the home of Whabism and the monatery center for int'l terrorism. The fact we are on speaking terms with is only a reflection of the fact that both of our respective countries desperatly want the status quo to ensure the oil flows. They are an absolutely repugnant regime and it pains me we are forced to do buisness with them.

---

Check your facts. You're operating on decade-old information.

Saudi Arabia's Wahhabism was an exercise in domestic social control that got completely out of hand. Since 9/11, the Saudis have cracked down on Islamist terrorism more violently, decisively, and thoroughly than any other nation in the Middle East, and probably the world.

As to their repugnant internal society - we're talking realpolitik, right? Not my business, not my problem, and not my concern. I've long ago given up caring about how the Arabs govern themselves as long as they keep it in-country.

Quote:

---

If Iran wanted to they could roll into Riyadh tmrw and no one could stop them.

---

That is not even remotely accurate. Saudi Arabia has the most advanced military in the region, trained by America, equipped with the best Western military equipment, and with a budget at least three times the size of Iran's and even greater than that of the IDF.

I would seriously question Iran's ability to even support a conventional military excursion of any meaningful size through Iraq and into Saudi Arabia even with no resistance.

Quote:

---

Expoliting the divisons in Islam works to a point but not while Israel is still there. I fail to see how a country with no hard power offers a real counterweight to Iran. Other than secratrianism.

---

Saudi Arabia has far more influence in the region, and has actually taken steps to correct its contribution to 9/11 instead of using it to push a war in Iraq. Amazingly, the Kingdom can be considered a better ally.

Quote:

---

How is Israel not a counterweight to Iran?

---

They can do precious little to curb their growing sphere of influence in the region. They can do nothing to stop Iranians from supplying IEDs and weapons to the Taliban. They cannot stop regime forces from attacking our own in Iraq. They couldn't even defeat Hezbollah in their own backyard.

If your argument for the value of Israel's incredibly one-sided alliance is based on its ability to counter Iran's ambitions, I think a critical assessment of their actual capabilities is in order. Why don't you tell me exactly what Israel actually does to earn its special status? For comparison, our other special partner, Britain, has faithfully followed us into the depths of hell.

Quote:

---

It's the worst kept secert this side of Judea that Israel has nukes. They have also stated they will not allow Iran to persue its program

---

And how will they stop them? It is highly questionable whether they have the technical ability to get to Iran, much less attack a underground system designed to resist modern bunker busting technology. Hence, the Israeli push for American action against Iran in the last years of the Bush administration.

Quote:

---

OBL and Neo-Conservatism compeled us into war. I'm sure Israel is pleased with what happend but the Isreali lobby can't pull something like that off. I'm willing to concede that they were a minor third partner but inconsequntial

---

You may want to reexamine that position. The Jewish lobby, of which many were involved in neo-conservatism, relentlessly pushed for war against Iraq as far back as the Clinton regime. After 9/11, the opportunity was seized and a coordinated effort between American Zionist Jews and Israel was launched to make the war happen, including intense political pressure within congress and the White House, a sophisticated public relations scheme to sell the war, and doctored Israeli intelligence. When Bush wanted to get UN approval and allow time for weapons inspections, they threatened to bring down his presidency. None of this is in much contention, even within the Jewish Lobby and Israelis.

Quote:

---

Pakistan, SA, Egypt. In that order

---

Pakistan is pretty bad, but it is generally understood that they are not really our ally - at least not in the same way that, say, Britain is. Again, Saudi Arabia's contribution to Islamic extremism through their support of Wahhabism in the '90s was bad, but they've taken steps to correct it. Egypt was actually a pretty reliable American ally under Sadat and Mubarak, so I'm not sure where you're going with that.

Quote:

---

I am upset because the authors imply there is a set of American forigen policy goals that take a backseat to Israels bidding. When Americas forigen policy is what the American government says it is. And every president since Carter has made Israel a centerpeice of that policy.

---

Yet America's unqualified support of Israel goes against even its own stated foreign policy goals of stability and security in the region.

Quote:

---

I think both of us need to define what Americas endgame in the ME is. Lately both the Obama and Bush adminstrations have said they want friendly democracies in the region and as of right now very few countries tick that box. And Isreal is the only one with projectable power

---

You vastly overestimate Israel's projectable power.

In any event, I don't think it is a stretch to say that America's endgame in the Middle East is one that yields favorable outcomes for America in terms of security, trade, and influence. America's immense financial and diplomatic support of Israel does nothing to enhance any of those positions.

Quote:

---

You are a grown man who has demonstrated very good critical thinking skills. Please use them.

---

That's the problem. The more I think about our relationship with Israel in objective terms instead of simply assuming that because a) they are a democracy in a region of authoritarian regimes and/or b) they are also locked in a struggle with Allahu Akbar screamers that they must be on our team, the more I see that they are not. They offer nothing to the US, they do nothing for the US, and yet they receive incredible amounts of aid ($500 per year for each Israeli citizen). Worse, not only do they collect our money, they use their considerable influence in America to commit our dollars and our boys and girls to their foreign policy adventures.

In the future, I'd prefer what resources America has left to be employed for the benefit of a broader spectrum of the American public instead of a cabal of traitorous Zionist Jews in America and a tiny, unimportant, and contemptible nation half way around the world. :shrug:

Quote:

---

They can do nothing to stop Iranians from supplying IEDs and weapons to the Taliban.

---

That is silly. The Iranians despise the Taliban, and were actually quite close to invading Afghanistan in 1999.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hax

That is silly. The Iranians despise the Taliban, and were actually quite close to invading Afghanistan in 1999.

---

Not as much as they despise the West, apparently.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/ju...ry.afghanistan

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news...-1111119001546

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011...taliban-nimruz

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RRl...eature=related

Quote:

---

Not as much as they despise the West, apparently.

---

I call :daisy:. I don't believe it, there's no way that the Iranian government would deal with the same Taliban that murdered the Iranian diplomats at Mazar ê-Sharif less than a decade earlier. Perhaps that the Iranian government funded some Shi'ite splinter group, but it doesn't make any sense for them to fund the Taliban as a whole. There's one sentence I find troubling in particular:

Quote:

---

Ideological differences between Iran, a Shia Muslim state, and the Taliban, a Sunni militia, are thought to have been settled in light of the shared aim in attacking coalition forces.

---

The Taliban aren't just "Sunni militias", they are hardcore Sunnite fundamentalists to the extreme. It would not make any sense for them to forge even a temporary alliance with the Iranians, as the Shi'ites are worse than non-believers, they are apostates. Or something. I find it hard to believe.

A different explanation might be that there is a lot of corruption within Iran itself. It might be that the government either didn't know or didn't care about weapons smuggle to Afghanistan.

Israel is terrible. I hate them more and more every day. I'm gaining greater respect for Jews in an inverse relationship to my engorging hatred of Israel.

When did Eric Cartman join the org?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hax

I call :daisy:. I don't believe it, there's no way that the Iranian government would deal with the same Taliban that murdered the Iranian diplomats at Mazar ê-Sharif less than a decade earlier. Perhaps that the Iranian government funded some Shi'ite splinter group, but it doesn't make any sense for them to fund the Taliban as a whole. There's one sentence I find troubling in particular:



The Taliban aren't just "Sunni militias", they are hardcore Sunnite fundamentalists to the extreme. It would not make any sense for them to forge even a temporary alliance with the Iranians, as the Shi'ites are worse than non-believers, they are apostates. Or something. I find it hard to believe.

A different explanation might be that there is a lot of corruption within Iran itself. It might be that the government either didn't know or didn't care about weapons smuggle to Afghanistan.

---

No offense dude, but your linear view of alliances, associations and state sponsored hate is kind of comical.

So let me break it down for you:
Iran is no fan of the Taliban.
Iran is no fan of the US.
Iran can fuel a proxy war between two of its enemies by providing weapons.

It's not a question of "are they?" its a question of "why wouldn't they?" You do know that Iran shares a border with Afghanistan, I am sure, and that Iran has a huge stake in the future of the country. This is evident enough in the violence levels between the east and west. Iran is in a tug of war with Pakistan.

I should also point out that the Taliban is not the only hostile force in the region, as there are a dozen anti-government splinter groups operating in Afghanistan, both Sunni and Shia. They do, however, tend to get overshadowed by the Taliban and people talking geopolitics tend to refer to all insurgents in Afghanistan as the Taliban, either for simplicity or due to ignorance.

Well, you've served on the ground there, so I'll go with your personal experience. Maybe my point wasn't coming across clear enough (writing posts at 3 AM), but I completely agree with your final assessment:

Quote:

---

I should also point out that the Taliban is not the only hostile force in the region, as there are a dozen anti-government splinter groups operating in Afghanistan, both Sunni and Shia. They do, however, tend to get overshadowed by the Taliban and people talking geopolitics tend to refer to all insurgents in Afghanistan as the Taliban, either for simplicity or due to ignorance.

---

[QUOTE]

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger

Are you sure?

---

I am

Quote:

---

Where did I endorse such a theory? :inquisitive:

In any event, as such an ardent supporter of realpolitik, how could I not eventually question our relationship with Israel - specifically the benefits we are getting for our substantial investment in the country?

---

I was referencing your "arab hate" comment. US support of Israel makes for great propoganda but it is a small part of the larger machiene at work.

The Arab world is capital poor, rescource rich and ruled by despots who use a religon to strike fear and hate in the hearts of the populace. Until real changes come internally there will always be an underclass ready to lash out at whomever they think is responsible for their plight.

The men who buy into this propaganda are young, unemployed, and due to the precarious status of women in there country have few prospects for love or a family. The US could hand out Ice cream every thursday and it would be turned against us.

Quote:

---

How is it in our interest to support Israel simply because it is a democracy? Communism is dead and democracy is on the rise in the region.

---

The Arab spring got allot of press but it seems to be turninig into a carsouel of strongmen, Israel is light years ahead of anyone else in the region and democratic states tend to cure many of the ills that plauge the Arab states right now.

Quote:

---

Check your facts. You're operating on decade-old information.

Saudi Arabia's Wahhabism was an exercise in domestic social control that got completely out of hand. Since 9/11, the Saudis have cracked down on Islamist terrorism more violently, decisively, and thoroughly than any other nation in the Middle East, and probably the world.

---

Only b/c they began to challenge the status quo within the country. The Whabbi schools and the money are still there, I love killing grown terrorists to but until we root out the problem that's all we'll do.

Quote:

---

As to their repugnant internal society - we're talking realpolitik, right? Not my business, not my problem, and not my concern. I've long ago given up caring about how the Arabs govern themselves as long as they keep it in-country.

---

I agree

Quote:

---

That is not even remotely accurate. Saudi Arabia has the most advanced military in the region, trained by America, equipped with the best Western military equipment, and with a budget at least three times the size of Iran's and even greater than that of the IDF.

I would seriously question Iran's ability to even support a conventional military excursion of any meaningful size through Iraq and into Saudi Arabia even with no resistance.

---

I would still take the IDF any day of the week, not to mention I don't want our ace in the hole to be SA in the region. I'm well aware of the secertain differences in Islam but push comes to shove and those differences get swept under the rug. Not the same with Israel

Quote:

---

Saudi Arabia has far more influence in the region, and has actually taken steps to correct its contribution to 9/11 instead of using it to push a war in Iraq. Amazingly, the Kingdom can be considered a better ally.

---

I'll reference the whabbi schools and money again

Quote:

---

They can do precious little to curb their growing sphere of influence in the region. They can do nothing to stop Iranians from supplying IEDs and weapons to the Taliban. They cannot stop regime forces from attacking our own in Iraq. They couldn't even defeat Hezbollah in their own backyard.

If your argument for the value of Israel's incredibly one-sided alliance is based on its ability to counter Iran's ambitions, I think a critical assessment of their actual capabilities is in order. Why don't you tell me exactly what Israel actually does to earn its special status? For comparison, our other special partner, Britain, has faithfully followed us into the depths of hell.

---

Heh perhaps I overplayed my hand, I should know better than to talk about the military with you. However, curbing Irans ambitions is not just about the military.

Quote:

---

And how will they stop them? It is highly questionable whether they have the technical ability to get to Iran, much less attack a underground system designed to resist modern bunker busting technology. Hence, the Israeli push for American action against Iran in the last years of the Bush administration.

---

I was under the impression that Israels was ready to strike with or without US support until they were talked off the ledge

Quote:

---

You may want to reexamine that position. The Jewish lobby, of which many were involved in neo-conservatism, relentlessly pushed for war against Iraq as far back as the Clinton regime. After 9/11, the opportunity was seized and a coordinated effort between American Zionist Jews and Israel was launched to make the war happen, including intense political pressure within congress and the White House, a sophisticated public relations scheme to sell the war, and doctored Israeli intelligence. When Bush wanted to get UN approval and allow time for weapons inspections, they threatened to bring down his presidency. None of this is in much contention, even within the Jewish Lobby and Israelis.

---

and without 9/11 none of your contentions could've happened. I would love to see links, as a quick google search yeilds nothing repuetable. And if Bush truly did forgo inspectors, and send American boys to die b/c he vauled his presidency over the truth, that seems like a unuiqely American issue

Quote:

---

Pakistan is pretty bad, but it is generally understood that they are not really our ally - at least not in the same way that, say, Britain is. Again, Saudi Arabia's contribution to Islamic extremism through their support of Wahhabism in the '90s was bad, but they've taken steps to correct it. Egypt was actually a pretty reliable American ally under Sadat and Mubarak, so I'm not sure where you're going with that.

---

All of these countries have harbored and supported terror while Israel did not


Yet America's unqualified support of Israel goes against even its own stated foreign policy goals of stability and security in the region.

Quote:

---

You vastly overestimate Israel's projectable power.

---

Probably

Quote:

---

That's the problem. The more I think about our relationship with Israel in objective terms instead of simply assuming that because a) they are a democracy in a region of authoritarian regimes and/or b) they are also locked in a struggle with Allahu Akbar screamers that they must be on our team, the more I see that they are not. They offer nothing to the US, they do nothing for the US, and yet they receive incredible amounts of aid ($500 per year for each Israeli citizen). Worse, not only do they collect our money, they use their considerable influence in America to commit our dollars and our boys and girls to their foreign policy adventures.

---

They are a fairly important peice on the chess board in a part of the world where we don't have many peices. Any other ally in the region comes with a nasty strain of anti americanism and a voltaile social base only held in check by tyranny, not a very good basket to put your eggs in.

Quote:

---

In the future, I'd prefer what resources America has left to be employed for the benefit of a broader spectrum of the American public instead of a cabal of traitorous Zionist Jews in America and a tiny, unimportant, and contemptible nation half way around the world. :shrug:

---

What rescources we have left? Do I need to talk you off the ledge? You can also stop trying to convince to your cause with inflammotory rhetoric, allot of your arguments bring up valid points, then you end a post like this and it makes me think your insane

Israel despite their obvious Palestinian issues is far more internally stable than Iran, Egypt, Pakistan, or even SA. The government in Israel is fairly elected and has gone through numerous regime changes.

SA is run by eccentric and most likely evil Monarchs, Egypt is undergoing regime change and will likely be replaced by another strong man or oligarchy of some sort, Pakistan is a nuclear nation with internal instability and already a crap history of being good american allies, and Iran is ruled by a tyrant as well. Not to mention the only other viable potential ally i currently see in that list, Pakistan is not anywhere near as likable as their giant and increaisngly more powrrful neighbor of India. True support of Pakistan would isolate India. Who the Hell would choose Pakistan over India in terms of Realpolitik.

SA is destined to be a desert with no discernible uses once the oil dries up. Israel is self sustaining and has its own economy not based on a single commodity good. The average citizen in Israel is better off than the residents of any of the countries leading to further political stability. Israel has and never will harbor dangerous islamic terrorists and is even more committed than america to rooting them out.

Israel's armed forces are the premier in the region and could likely and has in the past defeat entire coalitions of middle eastern countries.

I see no true realpolitik reason we should ever support anyone else in the ME.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Centurion1

I see no true realpolitik reason we should ever support anyone else in the ME.

---

I don´t see anyone seriouslly defending that any other player in the ME should be supported.....I think the question is the level of support....
when it comes to the US-Israel relationship there are moments where a certain "tail wagging the dog" vibe can be felt.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger

Over the course of the last year or so, I've been entertaining ever more negative views of the state of Israel and particularly the Jewish effort in the United States to advance Israel's strategic interests at the expense of America's. I've even allowed some ugly tin-foil-hat type thoughts involving Zionism and disproportionate Jewish power to cross my mind.

---

Mein Führer, it doesn't help to say all that with a PanzerJäger in your sig! :balloon:

Jews don't conceive of themselves as part of some global conspiracy. It's the same with Muslims. That's just not how it works. There is such a thing as militant Zionism or Islamism, but these are not the daily reality for most people. It's not what's on their mind this weekend, their being mostly occupied with food, their night out on Saturday, the football game on Sunday. There's paranoia looming if one loses sight of the difference between long-term process and deliberate personal intent.


Having said that, American Jews wage disproportionate power and wealth, and there is a tremendously influential zionist lobby. One gets the impression America is sometimes used as a dumb ox, a beast of burden, by Israel. Americans pay and die on behalf of a country which does not at all behave like a trustworthy ally. Israeli interests have been sold to America as American interests, when they most likely are not.

The British are dying on behalf of America the world over. Costly affairs too. Compare London's long standing requests for US support in maintaining the Falklands, which have been British for two hundred years, with Israeli demands for unwavering American support for the Israeli occupied territories. An Israel which never pays more than lip service to American interests. Something is very off about that, about the difference in treatment America gives its best ally and its worst ally.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

Compare London's long standing requests for US support in maintaining the Falklands, ....

---

Don't remind me. Whenever I feel misty eyed about the "special relationship", I should remember that the UK ranks about equal with a decrepit, suicidal, Argentinian military junta in the eyes of of the U.S. I still chaff at the bit in the Thatcher diaries where she recalled telling Al Haig that British troops were about to land on South Georgia to retake it and he felt honour bound to inform the Argentinians. Thankfully Weinberger talked him out of it. But I can't sustain that clear vision very long - god help me, I just love America. "Land of the free" - how can you not?

Back on topic: what happened to change US attitudes to Israel after 1967? As far as I can make out, Israel fought its critical wars with about as much help from the US as Britain had in the Falklands[1]. But once Israel attained regional hegemony with its spectacular success in 1967, it suddenly became America's bff. What changed stateside?


[1]Hyperbole aside, some figures here - no idea how good the source is:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...reign_aid.html