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We have to stop those dirty Asian bastards from polluting our perfect Black and White paradise!
You would think with this economy, people would be grateful to have people risking their assets to start a business, regardless of their race. Not leftists though!
I love people who talk about themselves in the third personQuote:
Barry isn’t apologizing. Rather, he said, in an interview, he suggested his critics “get to know Marion Barry and his stellar record on civil rights.”
”I’ve spent the last 50 years of my life fighting for justice and equality of all people,” he said. “Those five people don’t know Marion Barry at all. They know my name; they don’t know my record.”
:rolleyes:Quote:
But Barry renewed his critique of Asian-owned businesses: “Let me make it clear, I’m not castigating any group of people. I’m not doing anything except trying to have a renaissance of our community and get some respect. A number of these restaurants serve high caloric food, bad food, et cetera, but the more important thing, they don’t participate in the community. . . . That’s what I object to, I don’t care who it is. “
Asked why he singled out Asians in his remarks, Barry said, “Because that’s reality. Who owns these little restaurants? Who owns them? You know, Asians. . .Ninety percent of all the small restaurants in Ward 8, at least.” It is difficult to verify that claim.
He added, “We’re spending our money there, and we demand respect. We demand they participate in community affairs. We demand they give jobs to Ward 8 people regardless of their cultural situation. That’s as American as apple pie.”
Alt QQ.
The lemur objects, on the basis that the lemur is too cool for school. Furthermore, the lemur is cool like an ice cream sandwich, except that those are really hard to eat without getting brown stuff all over your fingers, which you then have to gnaw off or use like fifteen paper towels to clean your hands. So the lemur is like that but without the messy cleanup. So says the lemur.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro
I'm not grateful when they won't hire anybody except illegals or their own people.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vuk
The :daisy: set him up.
As long as they obey the laws ie health, tax, labour, then I generally don't care who the business is.
I do prefer to get a kebad at a Turkish or Greek shop, used to prefer
Italian coffees (now that coffee is the norm everyone makes a decent coffee), Indian ran shops for a great curry etc
Some fusion and some more mainstream food is being made well by everyone.
Just a lot of good value are from the family run stores.
In my experience, black Americans are some of the most racist in the nation. Whites who live in predominantly white areas often see them through a Hollywood lens, but if you spend any time in the black community it becomes clear very quickly that everything revolves around race, which is a form of tribalism. As the Trayvon Martin story shows, every bad thing that happens to black people takes on a racial dimension. In America’s quest to change the attitudes of its white majority, it has nurtured an incredibly persistent victim complex among its black minority.
I live in a part of a city where I'm in the racial minority, and black Americans are the racial majority.
The problems here are self-inflicted. The schools in this area are new and expensive, paid for by the taxes of the city as a whole. So even though this locale is poor, they have great schools. We have Orlando police and Orange County Sheriffs everywhere, so the crime is not a result of a lack of police presence or protection. Response times are good for actual crimes. There are plenty of businesses which are hiring, which is WHY I came to Orlando in the first place, so it's not a lack of jobs.
The problem is self-inflicted. The people we hire don't want to work and are irresponsible. People hang out in front of the store selling drugs and begging for change for 8, 9 hours a day, when they obviously could hold down a job. How hard is it to fold boxes, wash dishes, or answer phones? It's not, but they'd rather not answer to someone else. The crime and the violence is black on black, it's not roving gangs of white people hurting the community. It's roving gangs of youths of the same race, who don't give a :daisy: about who they hurt. That's not racial, that's just lack of discipline.
But I can feel the racial tension, because even in an area that is predominantly black, "being black" is a big thing. It's what they talk about and what they're concerned with. It doesn't matter that the hiring manager of the store is the same race, it doesn't matter if the local businesses are owned by others of the same race, it doesn't matter if the homes are owned, and sold, and purchased by people of the same race. It doesn't matter if other races are there at all, some folks are still so obsessed with the idea of race that it becomes a cultural thing.
Now let's be clear- there are disadvantages to being in the racial minority, even under ideal circumstances. For one, it's harder to date folks of your own race, because they are fewer and further between. It's harder to fit in, culturally, if you have strong ethnic differences in what you like and who you choose to associate with. It doesn't matter if there's no intentional discrimination, you'll feel like an outsider.
Then, there are racists out there and people who treat you like a second class citizen unintentionally. Heck, I can deliver all night and make nothing in tips, and I know a lot of that is probably due to people not wanting to be generous toward a white person. It's possible they think I have it better than they do, even though I can plainly see that their apartment is stocked with expensive goods I could never afford, and I make at most, half as much as they do, no matter how little they get paid.
Racial tension is very real, even in these progressive times. That said, some people are professional victims. They blame race for everything, and go out looking to perpetuate racial tension, and have racially-motivated politics that involve only doing whatever is good for my race, and screw everyone else.
Marion Barry is a blowhard, not taken seriously by me, at the very least, and probably not taken very seriously by anyone who considers themselves liberal.
That said, Vuk, your obvious contempt for "leftists" is the same kind of prejudice that racists feel toward everyone of a different race, so you might not want to feel too superior to mister Barry. It's the same kind of condemnation of an entire group of people, indiscriminately, except it is political instead of racial.
What's the difference? Explain how saying all leftists are racists is any different from saying all Black people are (fill in the blank).
If there's no difference, and there isn't, then maybe you should keep your prejudices on a tighter leash.
So say we all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemur
You circled around an excellent point: Tribalism is both natural and inevitable. We are social animals, so we need to define who is with us and who is against us. It's ugly and it's primitive, but I dare you to show me a single person who isn't affected by it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy
This is why I think racism, as a sin, is overrated. Sure it's bad, but it's exactly the same sort of bad as Brewers versus Cubs fans, or Dems versus Repubs. It's just an expression of tribalism. (As you illustrate, when a poster accuses all liberals or all conservatives of some hideous evil, it sounds remarkably like a racist rant. Just replace "Democrat" or "Republican" with the racial epithet of your choice, and you don't need to change a word.)
Yes, we should all try not to be racist, especially in a country with a history of slavery, segregation, and redlining (in historical order), but we should recognize it for what it is, and we should never pretend one group has a monopoly on hate and/or victimization. Nor should someone being racist mark them as subhuman scum. They're just giving in to a remarkably stupid form of tribalism. Which is bad, but understandable, and forgivable in the long run (as long as they don't kill anybody).
Anyway.
First of all, I did not say that all leftists were racist (though I do believe that most are). The leftist political thought is dominated by racist people though, and thus the racist left. That is not the same as saying that all Leftists are racists though. I am willing to judge each person, even a leftist, by his own actions. As a group though, they are predominantly racist.Quote:
Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy
And yes, there is a fundamental difference between racial and political discrimination. There is nothing wrong with discrimination, or thinking that one thing is better than another. Nor is there anything wrong with prejudice and making initial judgments based on someone's group affiliation. It just needs to be done wisely. For example: I buy a cheap power tool from a brand X and it breaks down in a day. Everyone I have talked to who has bought that tool has had the same experience. I buy another with the same result. Finally I have enough and get a Milwaukee, and it lasts for many years. From there on in, I do not waste my time and give that other brand a chance, and instead just buy Milwaukee. It does not mean that I will not get a lemon Milwaukee or a brand X that is excellent, but that the odds are not in my favor to waste my time or money giving brand X tools a chance. Surely it is wise to just stick with Milwaukee in this case?
As far as the difference between racial, political/ideological/cultural discrimination, it is a difference of choice. A person has no choice in the race they are, any more than their height, and it has no more bearing on their actions than their height. The danger with associating race with behavior is, that despite what statistical correlations you may find, race has no bearing on behavior, and you are going to be unfairly associating people of behaviors they don't want to be associated with.
Judging people based on their politics, ideology, and culture on the other hand is different, because that DOES have a direct influence on their behaviors, and it IS something they can choose, and they are willingly associating themselves with something that they are willing to be associated with (and probably do not have a problem being associated with).
There is nothing wrong with considering some behaviors and world views to be intolerable (cannibalism, Nazism, etc), and disliking those who commit the act or believe in the view. Discrimination against behaviors and ideologies is not only acceptable, but necessary for any society.
So yes, there is an enormous difference between racial and political discrimination. Everyone is and should be guilty of the latter, and no one should be of the former.
Illustrating my point:
Also:Quote:
Originally Posted by Vuk
That's judging something based on firsthand experience, which is the polar opposite of prejudice, which means you pre-judge something (or someone) before you give it a chance. Tribalism and/or racism indicate you are judging individuals based on their group affiliation, and judging them before they open their mouths or take any action.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vuk
As far as your first quote, it does not illustrate your point at all. As I said, a person's worldview does affect their actions and defines their beliefs, whereas a person's race does not. Thus they are not valid comparisons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemur
And the second quote also does not illustrate your point. Yes, I had firsthand experience with the group and formed an opinion on the entire group as a result. I did not however have experience with every tool, and for all I know, one of those worked fine, but I was not willing to give it a chance because of the group it was associated with. Thus, I was basing my decisions on prejudice.
Also, I am certainly prejudiced against Leftists. That does not mean that I will not judge them as individuals. Whenever I meet a Leftist there are certain things I assume about them, but I am willing to correct my views about that individual when I find they are wrong, based on that person's actions.
It is like when you meet an auto mechanic or a farmer, based on his occupation you would make certain assumptions about his lifestyle (for instance he does not enjoy going to Opera Houses). That is prejudging him and you may end up being wrong, but there are always certain assumptions that can be made about groups that have a high likelihood of being correct, and without them, functioning socially would be pretty hard. We would have no idea of a persons interests, and would not know what to talk about, and could easily make someone mad without knowing it. Stereotypes give us some guidelines that make social interaction a lot easier, and can give us a good starting point when meeting someone.
And if that were my point, indeed, it would not be made. But I was talking about how broad, sweeping generalizations about a group—as an expression of tribalism—sound remarkably like racism (which is just another brand of tribalism, after all). Note that the only word I needed to change in your blanket condemnation was "Leftists," and it sounds perfectly natural. (Important: I am not suggesting that you are a racist in any way shape or form. That's kinda crucial. I'm just pointing out how all tribalism sounds the same, and follows the same inexorable illogic.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Vuk
You are of course correct that voluntary choices such as political affiliation and career can cause others to make assumptions about your character, but that's kind of a dodge. As social animals, we're always trying to find some new way to slice Us Versus Them. And I'm not saying that's horrible or unnatural or worthy of condemnation; rather, I guess I'm saying we should all have some humility and self-awareness. When accusing others of racism or Us-Versus-Themism, the potential for hypocrisy is extremely high.
But my entire point is that there is nothing wrong with separating yourself from someone (or some group) based on their beliefs. Would you, for instance, want to live in a cannibalistic society where it was deemed acceptable when people got to an age where they could not take care of themselves, for the younger people to eat them?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemur
Racism is not bad because it separates one group of people from another, it is wrong because of the false assumptions of linking race with behavior cause you to incorrectly associate people with behaviors or beliefs that they do not hold. ei, it is not the discrimination that is bad, but the fact that you are discriminating against people unfairly.
Depends. No, I would not choose to associate with people involved in cannibalism or systematic child abuse, to pick random examples, but I think the left-right thing can (and does) get overblown. I have an uncle, for example, who believes that America should be separated into two halves "so that real Americans won't have to live with liberals." Seriously. He likes to drink hard and yell this at inappropriate moments. Needless to say, he watches hours of Fox News daily. I think this sort of extreme tribalism is unhelpful, even if it is based on political orientation rather than race. It's still an expression of unbridled, low-effort, uncritical Us Versus Them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vuk
But the impulse to racism is tribalism. Racism is not some unique evil that emerges from the netherworld; it's a distortion of a natural human impulse. I think that's kinda important to acknowledge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vuk
Another true story: My new lemur wife works in a rough neighborhood. There was a shooting outside her place of business recently. She gets jumpy when she sees young black men in this neighborhood. She worried out loud that she was giving in to racism. I pointed out, "You don't have a problem with [x, a programmer with my company], do you?" Nope, she does not. "You don't have a problem with [y, a mutual friend], do you?" Nope. "But they're black as well. So you're not responding to race, you're responding to race in a specific setting where you already have evidence of violence. That's not prejudice, that's empiricism."
As with everything, discrimination must be done logically. For instance, child abuse is not part of the beliefs espoused by the Catholic Church, therefore it would be stupid to assume that all Catholics are child-molesters (but probably wise to not let your son be an altar boy, even if child-molestation is not an official policy of the Church).Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemur
Sure, absolutely. Take your example of power tools: You do not need to try every make and model of a brand to reach a working conclusion that their power tools are junk. For you, it's a logical and functional behavior to avoid their tools in the future. Maybe somebody will show up with a drill of theirs that rocks, and you'll need to reevaluate, but discriminating against their products makes complete and total sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vuk
That said, look at your OP. You cite a particular racist idiot and convicted criminal, and then associate him with all "leftists" everywhere. Is that ... helpful?
Oh Marion, you crazy.
I'm not going to waste my time explaining how 300 years of slavery + 100 years of aparthied can instill a certain complex in a group of people. I'm also not going to explain why the situation hasn't "fixed" itself 50 years later
Mostly becuase it would be an excise in futility
Mr. Barry is not what I base my opinion of Leftists on, but simply one more piece of evidence about the types of people who are excepted into the fold. Is Obama rebuking this guy? Nope. Are Leftists freaking out about him? Nope. Yet every time there is a racist conservative everyone gets on their high-horse and parades it around as proof that conservatives are evil. I am simply pointing out that you got your own black sheep, and Leftists don't seem all that concerned about it. (whereas when there is a racist conservative, he is generally denounced by other conservatives) The Left seems to be a lot more accepting of these things.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemur
Come on Strike, modern Americans are not victims of slavery. Anyone can look back at their heritage to get an excuse to hate certain people, but it is BS. Stop making excuses for racism. I am part Jewish on my mother's and my father's side, does that mean that I have to hate Germans? What have Germans done to me personally? There is no excuse, so don't try to make one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Strike For The South
Would like the president of the US to go out and personally rebuke a coked up old man who really doesn't matter?Quote:
Originally Posted by Vuk
I can assure you conservatives who don't matter get away with saying dumb things too.
Vuk I have a book I would like you to read, provided you are in fact literate.
So in other words, leftists bad, rightists victimized, system unfair. Got it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vuk
And that doesn't sound ... familiar?
I don't expect you to understand nuance.Quote:
Come on Strike, modern Americans are not victims of slavery. Anyone can look back at their heritage to get an excuse to hate certain people, but it is BS. Stop making excuses for racism. I am part Jewish on my mother's and my father's side, does that mean that I have to hate Germans? What have Germans done to me personally? There is no excuse, so don't try to make one.
Black Americans are most certainly affected by racial legacy of this country. I never said victims. It is also not an excuse for anything but it does offer some partial explanation of why black people are so dispirportionaitly poor, imprisoned, and born out of wedlock.
I also don't care who you hate, it's most likely for some inane, petty reason, much like a child
Thumbs up for guts.Quote:
This is why I think racism, as a sin, is overrated.
I think sexism outstrips all the rest--because most people end up in a relationship, and because people care enough about being found attractive to adapt themselves to sexist beliefs to some extent.
Political tribalism--eh, it's very appropriate for people to attack each other over political views. The objection to the title is that it's just a cheap shot.
Racism and sexism are indicative of a lack of ability to empathize.
This does not mean that all causes taken up in trying to rectify those things are just but I do find it odd that simply becuase something is biologically ingrained in us we should be given (somewhat) a pass.
No, of course I wouldn't expect any reasonable President to, but Obama has set those expectations by rebuking others. Either he is playing favorites, or he should rebuke someone like Barry.Quote:
Originally Posted by Strike For The South
Do I believe that leftists are wrong? Yeah, of course I do. I never denied that. Do I believe that they are hypocrites? Of course. I don't remember denying that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemur
Here is a surprise for you Strike: all racists have a reason to be racist, and usually a pretty good one too. That does not make it any better. Every racist looks back on a history of abuses, and/or current trends or abuses to justify their racism. Every racist, black, white, Hispanic, etc. has a really good argument for their racism, and most believe them. Everyone though is flawed in some small way, but nonetheless very convincing and moving. It does not make one person's racism any better than another's.Quote:
Originally Posted by Strike For The South
Discrimination is why so many are born out of wedlock? Come off it. That is an individual choice based on individual beliefs. No one is forcing anyone to not marry. Stop with the victimization. Yes, there are people who experience real racial discrimination (people of all races, including white people), but saying things like that is just so cheap that it makes you lose all credibility.
And for someone who is accusing me of being illiterate, you spelling is pretty atrocious. What was it you majored in again? Sweat?
Sexism goes both ways, and usually the people who cry the most about sexism also try to play both sides and get the benefits of traditional beliefs. I am not saying that sexism does not exist, but the way it is classified and tackled nowadays is sexist in its own right, and often does as much harm as good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro
It (racism) has nothing to do with lacking the ability to empathize. It has to do with mistakingly believing that behavioral traits are related to skin colour.Quote:
Originally Posted by Strike For The South
Not suggesting any of that. But when you assert that your group is victimized and the other guys get a free pass and the system is rigged: Who do you sound like?Quote:
Originally Posted by Vuk