Football and Racism

Several days ago, an U21 football match between Serbia and England ended in an all out brawl. There were shoves, punches, slaps involving all 22 players, plus back ups and coaches. Yet the most horrendous thing that happened was racism. English player, Danny Rose (a black guy obviously) was, according to him anyway, been subject to racial abuse "every time he touched the ball". It garnered such attention that even British PM and sports minister got involved, demanding draconian punishment against Serbian football, including several years ban for clubs and national team.

What's gonna happen doesn't concern me really, I'd welcome such a ban for different reasons, but I'm somewhat curious about whole racism issue.

I'm going to put forth a theory - there is no racism in Serbia. It may sound controversial, as eastern European countries are often labelled as being extremely racist, but bear with me. For proof, I'm gonna point out that in Serbia, a 100 years ago, a black guy could get a job in a circus, just sitting there with people paying to see him. They never saw a black man before, it was as much of a curiosity as bearded lady. It's hard to talk about racism when the people and the country as a whole had virtually no contact with black people before few decades ago. Another curiosity is that just about every black footballer who ever played for a Serbian team didn't mention it, and some indeed chose to live in Serbia after their careers ended. Most of them, in fact, decided to speak out after this and say there is no racism in Serbia. Sure, there are idiots, just like there are idiots anywhere else, but on the whole, I'm pretty certain there's more real racist among Chelsea fans than in entire Serbia.

Now, onto the case itself. According to the player in question, there were monkey chants every time he touched the ball. Unfortunately, that's not true. In fact, he was doing everything he can to anger the crowd. England was defending a 1:0 lead from the first game and decided to employ time wasting rather early. Danny Rose was the worst, his antics included good ole dropping the ball "accidentally" during a throw-in, or deciding that another play should take a free kick or a throw after he wasted some time by holding the ball among other things, things considered unsportsmanlike. Of course, while it is considered unsportsmanlike, it is not forbidden and English players and Danny Rose had all the right to do it. It's a part of football ever since it was invented. Equally true, it's extremely unpopular with the opposing fans. There's gonna be whistles, boos and jeers when you do it, every time. This match was no exception, and after doing it one time too many, Mr. Rose was subject to them, just like any other player would be. Thing is, his statement was that he was subject to them because he was black. Sorry mate, but if you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen. This is football, not theater, and the crowd will always, always try to spur their team on and unnerve the opposition. If you can't stand that, go play tennis.
It culminated when the match ended and Danny Rose went to the crowd and made a rude gesture, could have been a middle finger, could have been something else but crowd literally exploded, and not in a good way. Later he kicked the ball at them angrily which was the last straw for the crowd. Only then monkey chanting started. Racism, one could say. True, monkey chanting is definitely racism but the fact is that the crowd was pissed specifically at him, and for how he acted the entire match. It didn't have nothing to do with the fact that he's black, he would have gotten the same treatment were he white or Asian. They just would have tried to insult him in a different way. It was ad hominem, not ad race.

Now, we come to the issue, or issues as the case may be:

1) why do racist insults trump all other insults? People can be insulted based on their nationality, their looks, their intelligence, their hairstyle or lack of hair, especially on a football pitch where culture of the attendance isn't that high and it further brought down by the "herd mentality". We may frown upon it, but we won't punish anyone because of it. The crowd could have called a player an "English cu**" for example. Rude, but no case for punishment. "Black cu**" would have been. Who decided that one is considered rude and the other is a breach of rules or even a crime?

2) are punishments for racism getting out hand? Let's look at the facts - 35+ people who are supposed to act like sportsmen ended up in a brawl. Shouldn't that be much bigger issue? Or when John Terry and Luis Sanchez got 4 and 8 matches ban respectively for racial insults, while Mario Balotelli, who purposefully stepped on opposing player hand and broke his finger got two matches ban. Isn't that much worse?

Now, I'm 100% against racism, but I'm talking institutional racism, real racism, like denying someone schooling or job opportunities, denying someone freedom of movement, of speech, full protection within the legal system etc... When you act like a prick and get insulted because of it, is it really racism? Especially when you would have gotten a similar, but differently worded insult, involving your ancestors, your hair colour, your height, weight or any other distinguishing feature that first caught the eye.

Fire away.

Generally if a person cannot control that aspect of their identity then it is considered more nasty to attack that characteristic.

For instance you chose the way you dress, what you consume, how much you exercise. Ultimately if you are fat or fit for the vast majority of people it is a choice.

Your ethnic group was determined by your ancestors. You can get more tanned, colour your hair, dress and talk differently, however at the end of the day your genetic heritage isn't a choice.

Religion due to the way ideas latch in the mind is at the crossroads between heritage and choice.

Attacking someone based on something that is not a choice of theirs is fundamentally unfair. Insulting an entire group because of the actions of a few is over simplified, base thinking and uncivilized. So to attack someone based on which ethnic group they inherited is a very low act not worthy of a modern citizen.

It's hard to say. They are a different breed in that part of the world. Some of it is just innocent fun, as they see no harm, and some of it is inquisitiveness. I saw the same thing in SE Asia.

I have a Russian friend named Ivan who I sometimes drink with in Norman. Many years ago when he first came to the states, we went out to a BBQ restaurant where he innocently proclaimed "These N*****s make very good BBQ!"

I think there is a perception that football hooligans from Eastern Europe tend to be very racist. I've seen a lot of pictures and videos of their fans using far-right symbolism at the games. Maybe this is just the 'Ultras', but you would know better than me.

Anyway, people are just sensitive about racism because it is true that even a couple of decades ago in the UK, institutional racism was a big thing that black people had to face. I wouldn't say there has been any real visible examples of this in my lifetime, but the first black footballers in the UK faced horrendous abuse every game.

Of course you are right that really racist abuse is no worse than abusing people over their looks or intelligence, but the fact is that pretty much all of us subconsciously regard ugly, stupid people as lesser people. I bet that they are the people that will really struggle in life, yet barely a word is said about that. Such is life.

The way you described it the racial attacks seem completely insignificant. If someone deserves insult you're going to hit em where it hurts.

We perceive that there are racial problems in our world so we take a no-tolerance line even in cases like this to help spread the message. He deserved it? Yes but consider the problems of society as a whole, basically.I think it's a question whether this has become counterproductive in our times though.

There are different kinds of discrimination. Some one being completely out of shape for a job so they are unable to perform it is such an example. Such distinctions are acceptable to a meritocratic society. On the contrary, stating "You cannot do this job because you are Black", even though that person can clearly do the job in a professional manner is a discrimination which is clearly unacceptable. Now replace "black" with "male/female", "heterosexual/homosexual" and other such examples which do not affect that persons performance, then the same applies.

Serbia is a terrible country

Danny Rose is a stand up gentleman

Bah, young people of today, no knowledge of history... Tsk, tsk.

First off, the "black guy in a cage" was all the rage all over Europe during the late 1800's. Heck, we Nordics even had our "Serbs in a cage"-display. I hear the good ladies fainted when they saw the savages...

Anyway, back to football. The actual reason there's a heavy penalty for racism in football has nothing to do at all with racism. I know you follow football closely Sarmatian, I am somewhat surprised you didn't know this. Oh well, I guess it's down to geography.

Hooliganism was an extreme problem a couple of decades ago. People actually got killed, player buses were stoned more often than not, etc. Not just in England either, this happened all over. Heck, even my tiny home town of Mjøndalen saw its share of hooliganism. One of my fathers proudest tales is when he was part of the group who flipped 5 police cars with coppers still inside after a match against Fredrikstad...

After years of doing little but hold each others penises, the various FA's, FIFA and UEFA finally realized that this had to stop: "normal fans" started loosing interest due to the bullies. Would you take your wife and two kids on an away match in England in 1981? I think not...

The crackdown was actually extremely effective. For example, the hooligan culture in Vålerenga's fan club Apeberget(monkey mountain) was completely removed in a single season, and the new fan club Klanen(the clan) is remarkably better. While families tend to stay clear of the F/G-fields, I always see a large number of families in their midst. Unthinkable in the 80's.

The crackdown was effective because it was done on every front thinkable. The police were involved, youth groups were involved, civil authorities were involved, the clubs were involved. Fans were identified, restraining orders were issued by the courts, tickets and club memberships revoked. Security personell were given long lists of markings to look for, and if found the person was denied entry. And now we get to racism: the unwanted fans shared had several things in common. They loved flares. So, flares were banned. They loved racist chants. So, racism was banned.

That's the reason racism is punished severely these days. There's no way flares would've been banned if the hooligans hadn't used them; the fire hazard excuse is lame. And there's no way racism would've been punished so severely if not for the actions of idiot fans three deades ago.

In short: racism is banned because it's a measure to contain unwanted elements and make football attractive to a wider audience, not because of it's inherent characteristics.


And a final word: eastern europe is now on the bottom of the heap when it comes to fan retardism. Serbia, and most famously Red Star, are among the most retarded of the bunch. May they burn the lot of 'em, noone needs their neanderthal brains around a football stadium. Send them to Siberia instead.

I suppose all the other instances of racism in Serbia in the past were the player's fault too, Sarmatian?

Here in Northern Ireland we like to bury our head in the sands too. The IFA and Norn Irn fans pretend that Windsor Park is not a sectarian cesspit anymore, and Catholics should not feel intimidated at international matches. It's not as bad as it was before, but sectarian chanting is still rife.

edit: You're probably going to ask what that has to do with Serbia. Well, about ten years ago there was an incident where a Catholic Northern Ireland player received death threats and abuse from the crowds. I heard the same sort of arguments then, 'oh plenty of Catholic players play for Northern Ireland' 'some of our most popular players are Catholic' 'it's his attitude, not his religion, he doesn't seem to care about playing for Northern Ireland'. I was at the matches, the abuse was nothing to do with any perceived lack of effort, it was animal hatred, pure and simple. As for the 'herd mentality', absolute garbage. Individuals choose how they behave, I was surrounded by people shouting sectarian abuse and was able to refrain from following. Admittedly, I didn't raise an objection, but I like my kneecaps the way they are.

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Originally Posted by Papewaio

So to attack someone based on which ethnic group they inherited is a very low act not worthy of a modern citizen.

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No arguments there. My question is why is an attack on someone's nationality considered rude, and an attack on someone's race a breach rules, involving heavy fines and other penalties?

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Bah, young people of today, no knowledge of history... Tsk, tsk.

First off, the "black guy in a cage" was all the rage all over Europe during the late 1800's. Heck, we Nordics even had our "Serbs in a cage"-display. I hear the good ladies fainted when they saw the savages...

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They fainted because of the manliness and good looks. Who can blame them, really - their men, who used to wear horned helmets and big axes in the past, are now bunch of pansies.

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That's the reason racism is punished severely these days. There's no way flares would've been banned if the hooligans hadn't used them; the fire hazard excuse is lame. And there's no way racism would've been punished so severely if not for the actions of idiot fans three deades ago.

In short: racism is banned because it's a measure to contain unwanted elements and make football attractive to a wider audience, not because of it's inherent characteristics.

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Well, fact No.1 is that football is sport for the unwashed masses. Sure, there are yuppies who think it's cool to see a football game nowadays, but the sport is primarily watched by lower and middle class. That was true 150 years ago and is true today. What we're talking about here is not hooliganism but but general rude behavior. Regardless how much an extremely intelligent man that I am can found boos and jeers directed at teenagers distasteful, it is, was and will be a part of football. What you don't do is provoke an audience even more.

Anyhoo, I consider violence much worse than a racist insult, and what should have been talked about, first and foremost, is the all out brawl at the end of the match.

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And a final word: eastern europe is now on the bottom of the heap when it comes to fan retardism. Serbia, and most famously Red Star, are among the most retarded of the bunch. May they burn the lot of 'em, noone needs their neanderthal brains around a football stadium. Send them to Siberia instead.

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You are a kind and smart man, sir, and I hope football gods hear you. Hopefully Red Star will go the way of Rangers with cca. 65M debt.

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Originally Posted by johnhughthom

I suppose all the other instances of racism in Serbia in the past were the player's fault too, Sarmatian?

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Names, dates and places, please.

As I've said, there are idiots and there's always gonna be idiots, but there's no organized and institutional abuse against blacks. Except some far right groups, which exist unfortunately everywhere in the world, no black man will ever be in trouble in Serbia just because the colour of his skin

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Here in Northern Ireland we like to bury our head in the sands too. The IFA and Norn Irn fans pretend that Windsor Park is not a sectarian cesspit anymore, and Catholics should not feel intimidated at international matches. It's not as bad as it was before, but sectarian chanting is still rife.

edit: You're probably going to ask what that has to do with Serbia. Well, about ten years ago there was an incident where a Catholic Northern Ireland player received death threats and abuse from the crowds. I heard the same sort of arguments then, 'oh plenty of Catholic players play for Northern Ireland' 'some of our most popular players are Catholic' 'it's his attitude, not his religion, he doesn't seem to care about playing for Northern Ireland'. I was at the matches, the abuse was nothing to do with any perceived lack of effort, it was animal hatred, pure and simple. As for the 'herd mentality', absolute garbage. Individuals choose how they behave, I was surrounded by people shouting sectarian abuse and was able to refrain from following. Admittedly, I didn't raise an objection, but I like my kneecaps the way they are.

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That is a very different issue. Northern Ireland has seen a lot of violence and there still is some bad blood between Protestants and Catholics.

I'd be much more inclined to talk about racism, or some other -ism, if the player in question was an Albanian or a Croat. But black? Plee-hee-hee-ease...

I have yet to meet a Serb or Croation who didn't seriously scare me

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Originally Posted by Fragony

I have yet to meet a Serb or Croation who didn't seriously scare me

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We Croats are lovely people. I have no comment on Serbs. Even Albanians don't like Serbs and I mean.... Albanians dude.

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Originally Posted by Sarmatian

Names, dates and places, please.

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How about the last time England under 21s played there, Justin Hoyte and Nedum Onouha were racially abused. UEFA gave Serbia one of their lovely and oh so deterring fines.

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Originally Posted by Sarmatian

As I've said, there are idiots and there's always gonna be idiots, but there's no organized and institutional abuse against blacks. Except some far right groups, which exist unfortunately everywhere in the world, no black man will ever be in trouble in Serbia just because the colour of his skin

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Who said anything about institutional racism, are you saying racism is fine so long as it's spontaneous?

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Originally Posted by Sarmatian

That is a very different issue. Northern Ireland has seen a lot of violence and there still is some bad blood between Protestants and Catholics.

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Way to miss the point, I'm not talking about the issue, I'm talking about a refusal to admit there is an issue. Do you work for the Serbian FA, you remind me of their statement last week.

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Originally Posted by johnhughthom

How about the last time England under 21s played there, Justin Hoyte and Nedum Onouha were racially abused. UEFA gave Serbia one of their lovely and oh so deterring fines.

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Didn't see that game so I can't comment. Will try to find it and see.

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Who said anything about institutional racism, are you saying racism is fine so long as it's spontaneous?

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Way to miss the point. If you act like a prick and get insulted because of it, with insults ranging from the colour of your skin to size of your nose and sexual habits of your sister, that's not racism in my book. May be rude, but definitely not racism.

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Way to miss the point, I'm not talking about the issue, I'm talking about a refusal to admit there is an issue. Do you work for the Serbian FA, you remind me of their statement last week.

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Racism is West's issue. It is the issue of anyone who had colonies and was involved with slave trade. We don't have that issue, not because we're better or something, but simply cause we didn't have practically any contact with blacks. Maybe if Serbia had been a colonial empire, involved in slavery and slave trade, with many centuries of racism and treating blacks like subhumans we would have had the same issues Britain has. People here simply don't see blacks in that light and for them there isn't much difference between insulting someone because he has a big nose or because he's black. For you guys, the former is considered rude and the latter a crime basically, for us, both are rude. Those same guys who insulted Danny Rose would go to a bar tomorrow and drink happily with another black guy. For them, Danny Rose was a guy who played for the opposing team and acted like a prick. That's the whole story.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

I have yet to meet a Serb or Croation who didn't seriously scare me

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What do you mean? We're all warm and cuddly.

@ Sarmatian: I understand what you are trying to say when you state that since the African slave trade never resulted in the Balkans there are less underlying issues.

That said the monkey noises audible in the videos I have seen of the incident do, like it or not, have connotations - that black people are similar, or at least, more similar than white people, to monkeys. That classifies black people as below white people, as sub-human if you will, and that is the issue at stake.

Moreover the violence associated with the end of the game was inexcusable, to my eyes, the England players and coaches, with the exception of Rose, were actively trying to avoid confrontation... Do you have a take on that? Or is it too OT?

Not the ones I met, can you explain something for me as I never understood it, a Serbian muslim friend of mine is a total fan of Russia (not just the team he hates the people in Afghanistan) what's up with that? It doesn't make sense to me.

Edit,@sams

They should change it to ethnism. Why? There is only one race. Humans.

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Originally Posted by Gaius Scribonius Curio

@ Sarmatian: I understand what you are trying to say when you state that since the African slave trade never resulted in the Balkans there are less underlying issues.

That said the monkey noises audible in the videos I have seen of the incident do, like it or not, have connotations - that black people are similar, or at least, more similar than white people, to monkeys. That classifies black people as below white people, as sub-human if you will, and that is the issue at stake.

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The monkey noises were heard at very end of the match, when Rose did everything he could to anger the crowd. My point is that he would have got the exact same treatment were he white, the crowd would just have found different way to express their anger. Therefore, it's not racism as it was directed specifically at Rose.

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Moreover the violence associated with the end of the game was inexcusable, to my eyes, the England players and coaches, with the exception of Rose, were actively trying to avoid confrontation... Do you have a take on that? Or is it too OT?

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Now, that is a totally different issue. It didn't seem that one sided to me, but anyway it should result in heavy fines and bans for those responsible. That's supposed to be the big issue, not Rose.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Not the ones I met, can you explain something for me as I never understood it, a Serbian muslim friend of mine is a total fan of Russia (not just the team he hates the people in Afghanistan) what's up with that? It doesn't make sense to me.

Edit,@sams

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A muslim Serb? Now if that's not cuddly, I don't know what is.

I can't explain his personal views, naturally. There are muslim Serbs who don't let their religion influence their views. People from Yugoslavia in general aren't very religious, communism and all that. It was all the rage in the nineties, especially as it was another way for nationalists to distinguish "us" and "them", but the novelty wore off rather quickly.

This is not a class issue, Sarmatian.

In both my clubs(I've lived in two different places and have feelings for them both, yeah I know I'm a sinner), the fan clubs are made up of exactly the same class now as during the 80's. The only real difference is that there are more second gen immigrants in Klanen, due to immigration. It was the hooligan(or whatever you want to call it) culture that was responsible. Once that was removed, the trouble was removed.

Racist chants is a major identifier for these people, and so I welcome hefty fines, bans and so on against it. The stadiums in western europe are much better places to be now, we need to clean up eastern europe next. Take football back from the neanderthals, they shall not be allowed to ruin our wonderful sport.

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Originally Posted by Sarmatian

The monkey noises were heard at very end of the match, when Rose did everything he could to anger the crowd. My point is that he would have got the exact same treatment were he white, the crowd would just have found different way to express their anger. Therefore, it's not racism as it was directed specifically at Rose.

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I appreciate your point but it still denigrates black people - placing them as inferior to white people - on the basis of their skin colour - it is still racism; it is still heavily punishable under FIFA rules; it is still unjustifiable. Even if there was provocation it is clear, in my opinion, that this response was on a far worse level than your standard insult.

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Originally Posted by Sarmatian

Racism is West's issue. It is the issue of anyone who had colonies and was involved with slave trade. We don't have that issue, not because we're better or something, but simply cause we didn't have practically any contact with blacks. Maybe if Serbia had been a colonial empire, involved in slavery and slave trade, with many centuries of racism and treating blacks like subhumans we would have had the same issues Britain has. People here simply don't see blacks in that light and for them there isn't much difference between insulting someone because he has a big nose or because he's black. For you guys, the former is considered rude and the latter a crime basically, for us, both are rude. Those same guys who insulted Danny Rose would go to a bar tomorrow and drink happily with another black guy. For them, Danny Rose was a guy who played for the opposing team and acted like a prick. That's the whole story.

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absolute BOLLOCKS

Racism is not an issue "created" by the slave trade it existed long before the slave trade and has outlived it - if anything the Slave trade was made possible BY racism not the other way round

and that last line is like the racist groups over here who start quotes with "I have Black friends BUT..." - it doesn't matter if the hooligans would happily drink in a pub with a Black man - they were Racially abusing Danny Rose and thus they were being Racist - end of story

to be honest you sound like you are trying to bury your head in the sand and are desperately trying to pile more sand on to make it all go away - this isn't the first incident and it wont be the last - your country has a Racism problem in football and you need to deal with it not hide from it

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Originally Posted by Gaius Scribonius Curio

I appreciate your point but it still denigrates black people - placing them as inferior to white people - on the basis of their skin colour - it is still racism; it is still heavily punishable under FIFA rules; it is still unjustifiable. Even if there was provocation it is clear, in my opinion, that this response was on a far worse level than your standard insult.

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Yeah this absolutely qualifies. It's calling a black man a monkey it has nothing to do with what he did in the game.

In terms of the fans, football in general attracts real fans but also a minority of (unfortunately very vocal and visible) morons. Enough morons with enough lager and stupidity among them and anything can happen. Racist chanting is just the tip of the iceberg really. Football stadiums are those rare occasions where the great unwashed have a voice and it gets broadcasted for all the world to see. Sometimes it's ugly and this was one such occasion - they don't represent every football fan and certainly not every Serbian.

Lol people attack racism and then attack the Serbs.

I really tried finishing the OP but when I got to the middle all I could think about was lesbians.

Who won the game?

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Originally Posted by SoFarSoGood

Lol people attack racism and then attack the Serbs.

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Who is "attacking serbs" here?

I will take Samartian side.
If it true that Serbs, Croats, Bosnians (formally known as Muslims) and others could kill each other with great enthusiasm, they simply hate the other. They don’t pretend to be superior, but just hate the other one.
My step daughter (mixed race as they say in UK, and THIS is racism as there is only ONE human race, other races being Equine, Ovine, Porcine, Feline and others) is black and went at school in Novi Sad and got an argument with a young boy. When he told her she was a black cow, it was not racism but a description…
Now, football brings the worst of humanity at the surface. The Serbian Crowd that killed a Frenchman, I think last year, it was not by racism but by stupidity, sheer and simple.
I would agree that the monkey noises were offensive but were probably copied from others matches and because it clearly upset the English, they used it. Now, I can’t say that Serbs are immune to the new wave of Racism. Even with my best friends there, I have to fight for the right for gays and Lesbians to exist. Few years ago, some extreme-right neo-Nazi kind of movements appeared which always amaze me as the Serbs were part of the race to exterminate, but, hey, extreme right supporters are not known to be the brightest… And to be honest, at that time President Kustonica went to apologise to the Gypsy Community for Racist Graffitis.

“I have yet to meet a Serb or Croatian who didn't seriously scare me”: Go there and you will find the most kind and welcoming people. Well, except football fans, but that is true in all countries…

“That said the monkey noises audible in the videos I have seen of the incident do, like it or not, have connotations - that black people are similar, or at least, more similar than white people, to monkeys. That classifies black people as below white people, as sub-human if you will, and that is the issue at stake.” For you: Perhaps not for the ones who just want to upset the English players, and knowing it will have an effect on them.
It is not because you use “excuse my French” when you swear and want to apologise that you are Francophobe. Or don’t be Dutch means you hate Holland, or feel superior.

Now, be free to ban all Football matches and Clubs for stupidity that will be TV channels for better use. The problem is you start to ban stupid things, it won’t left too much things to do and watch…

With hard punishments, banning fans, surveillance and being very liberal in handing out fines and other light punishments to everyone and their grandma, it's very possible to clean up eastern europe too. It worked in England, so I see no reason why it shouldn't work in Serbia or any other eastern european country.

That's the end goal: the complete removal of these monkeypeople.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

This is not a class issue, Sarmatian.

In both my clubs(I've lived in two different places and have feelings for them both, yeah I know I'm a sinner), the fan clubs are made up of exactly the same class now as during the 80's. The only real difference is that there are more second gen immigrants in Klanen, due to immigration. It was the hooligan(or whatever you want to call it) culture that was responsible. Once that was removed, the trouble was removed.

Racist chants is a major identifier for these people, and so I welcome hefty fines, bans and so on against it. The stadiums in western europe are much better places to be now, we need to clean up eastern europe next. Take football back from the neanderthals, they shall not be allowed to ruin our wonderful sport.

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It is, to a certain degree. Tennis crowd is much different than football crowd. Football is the sport of the masses, and a football stadium is a place where everyone express their emotions rather strongly. I'm fine with that, and the day football becomes like tennis, and we have 90 minutes of silence occasionally interrupted by an applause is the day football dies, for me at least.

Now, you're arguing that racist chants by themselves are not the big issue, but they serve to identify hooligans. I don't believe they are hooligans, at least the crowd in Krusevac, just as I don't believe they're racist. They were just one seriously pissed off crowd, trying to hit that particular guy where they thought it would hurt the most.

Other than that, I totally agree. Hooligans should be kept out of the stadium.

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Originally Posted by Sir Moody

absolute BOLLOCKS

Racism is not an issue "created" by the slave trade it existed long before the slave trade and has outlived it - if anything the Slave trade was made possible BY racism not the other way round

and that last line is like the racist groups over here who start quotes with "I have Black friends BUT..." - it doesn't matter if the hooligans would happily drink in a pub with a Black man - they were Racially abusing Danny Rose and thus they were being Racist - end of story

to be honest you sound like you are trying to bury your head in the sand and are desperately trying to pile more sand on to make it all go away - this isn't the first incident and it wont be the last - your country has a Racism problem in football and you need to deal with it not hide from it

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I never said that racism was created by the slave trade, I said the issue with racism and the current view of racism in the west was created by involvement of certain nations in slavery and slave trade.

I don't think I'm burying my head in the sand, that's more applicable to you- you're simply too narrowminded to even contemplate a place where racism is a non-issue. You're parroting a learned response much like a reflex without realizing that in another place there could be totally different cultural mindset.

Mind you, I'm talking specifically about blacks. Racism nowadays has such a broad definition that it can apply to ethnicity and different groups. In that case, yes, I believe there are many racist issues in Serbia, involving Croats, Albanians, gays etc...

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Originally Posted by Vladimir

I really tried finishing the OP but when I got to the middle all I could think about was lesbians.

Who won the game?

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Lesbians did.

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Originally Posted by Sarmatian

It is, to a certain degree. Tennis crowd is much different than football crowd. Football is the sport of the masses, and a football stadium is a place where everyone express their emotions rather strongly. I'm fine with that, and the day football becomes like tennis, and we have 90 minutes of silence occasionally interrupted by an applause is the day football dies, for me at least.

Now, you're arguing that racist chants by themselves are not the big issue, but they serve to identify hooligans. I don't believe they are hooligans, at least the crowd in Krusevac, just as I don't believe they're racist. They were just one seriously pissed off crowd, trying to hit that particular guy where they thought it would hurt the most.

Other than that, I totally agree. Hooligans should be kept out of the stadium.

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If it was a class issue, then we would have to swap classes on the football stadiums to fix the problems. We didn't. Vålerenga's fans is still made up of the same working class people they have always been. It's just that they've learned to behave themselves.

Now, Eastern European stadiums in general, and that certainly includes Serbia, are known to be filled almost exclusively by retards. That needs to be adressed. They either have to be forced to behave or banned from the stadiums. The kind of sheer stupidity we see is ruining my sport. Behead the lot of them.

A first start would be to force the Serbian national team to play at least a couple of games without any fans. If the serbian football official continue with their "lalalala I can't hear you everything is paradise here in Best Serbian Republic lalala"-chanting, UEFA should consider banning their idiot behinds from competitions.