Possible Factions

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Originally Posted by bobbin

That would be no more historically accurate than the "Gauls" of vanilla RTW. :thumbsdown:

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Ofcourse not, the Belgae was a Confederation just like the Sweboz!

To quote Moros from this very thread

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Originally Posted by Moros

The Belgae weren't a confederation. They are a group of tribes who are alike in culture etc,...
There were confederations of Belgae tribes and the like, but the Belgae are not and have never been a single political entity.

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You would quote the Prince of Lies? :laugh4:

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Originally Posted by Moros

Weren't Nervii more occupied with themselves though? They were fierce warriors granted, but I believe they were not really bussy with the outside world.

Edit:

Whachoo talkin' bout, Willis?

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Oh, sorry, didn't see it was you, Spreader of Truth

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Originally Posted by Darius

You would quote the Prince of Lies? :laugh4:

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:furious3:

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Originally Posted by Phalanx300

You keep talking of a Belgic faction but the Belgae on their own would be a faction!

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Err...nope. :sweatdrop:

We see right through your lies Moros. :clown: We've discovered the new faction! :whip:

hmmmmmm:dizzy2: I dont vote for anyone exept Armenia....:2thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Phalanx300

We see right through your lies Moros. :clown: We've discovered the new faction! :whip:

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If it makes you happy, just keep telling yourself that.

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Originally Posted by Moros

If it makes you happy, just keep telling yourself that.

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New EB slogan, fellas: War is Peace; Freedom is Slavery; Moros is Truth. :clown:

Back on-topic: is there much information on Byzantion from the period before it was sacked by the Romans? It would be nice to have a faction with significant trading opportunities bordering the Black Sea.

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Originally Posted by ArmenianWarrior301

hmmmmmm:dizzy2: I dont vote for anyone exept Armenia....:2thumbsup:

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Voting for Armenia would be a bit unnecessary here... They can never be a possible new faction...

There already are a faction...

Moros posted this on the TWC forums.

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Originally Posted by Moros

Qataban would be cool if we had a bigger focus on Arabia. However the amount of provinces in the Area, doesn't allow for a decent representation in game, and would probably mean that one of them would live very very short. However I'm planning for scripts alike to the celtiberian alliance to complicate and more accurately represent the political situation of the area back then.

But yeah Saba' is going to have a couple of extra units. With 4 units portraying the professional army. Of which 3 new ones the Khms, the Mqdmt (not 100% sure yet if they make it) and the Tmhrt. The fourth are the m'qbt malīkīm, also known as the Royal guard, which represent the bodyguard unit.

I don't think I can give you guys anymore information.

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So it seems Qataban and Hadrumaut are unlikley to be in, on the plus side we've got the names of 2 (possibly 3) new Sabean units.

I am a great liar, no? ~;)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Sorry I can't help writing things like this. The info is 100% accurate.

Oh you!:rolleyes2:

Seem to miss a lot of German tribes in this poll. And Gauls...

Volcae Tectosages, Cimbri/Teutons, Marcomanni, etc...

I still opt for a Chatti faction :DDD

were the marcomanni not member of the the sweboz federation? at least that's Tacitus' opinion. still they were one of the most important Germanic tribes and would work well in a Bavaria vs Prussia war in 272 ^^.

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Originally Posted by Ca Putt

I still opt for a Chatti faction :DDD

were the marcomanni not member of the the sweboz federation? at least that's Tacitus' opinion. still they were one of the most important Germanic tribes and would work well in a Bavaria vs Prussia war in 272 ^^.

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I'm pretty sure the Marcomanni are already a part of the Sweboz in EB.

And yes a Chatii faction would great. :2thumbsup:

I kind of like understatements(and yes this is an understatement)

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Originally Posted by Macilrille

Seem to miss a lot of German tribes in this poll. And Gauls...

Volcae Tectosages, Cimbri/Teutons, Marcomanni, etc...

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There was a maximum of 30 options so i couldn't go overboard with the Gauls as for the german tribes i was under the impression that many were difficult candidates for factions and that even the inclusion of the Sweboz was a bit iffy. That said there are a few choices on my poll that fall into the same catagory:juggle2:, if i were to go for one it would probably be the Cimbri.

Cimbrii (+Teutons, which are as far as I can ascertain mentioned by Pytheas and would thus be the first known German tribe) would definately be nice, starting in Jutland. Problem is that they and the Sweboz would butt heads right from the start. Chatti is a possibility, and despite their participation in Ariovistus' campaign and later being part of the Sweboz Confederacy/tribe, so is the Marcomanni IMO. Or even the Cherusci.

I just want more Germans...

Yes and the Chatii were one of the most warlike Germanic societies.

With their youth first having to make a kill before being able to remove a ring around their neck, and in EB to shave their beards.

But I've read in this book that it was actually misunderstood and that the youth were able to remove a ring from their neck and to remove the hair haning over the front head, thus having a pony tail backwards. He also said many sculptures of such Germanic soldiers were found.

And the Batavians were also former Chatii members (thus same customs as above) and were the most praised Auxillia of the Romans.

Looks like we can scratch th Maures off the list too.

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Originally Posted by jmrc

They have a place in the game, but they don't meet the criteria to be one of the EBII factions. We have always to weight and compare with other powers throughout the hellenistic period. Not all had the possibility to build a worldwide empire (given the right circumstances) and the Maures by 272BC certainly didn't have it. But, united under the Numidian kings banner, and having their ethnicities within the Numidian faction, one of their own princes may become king of Numidia and conquer the EBII world. We certainly hope to see the Maures cavalry fighting in the sarmatian steppes - that would be a fantastic campaign!

As for what are the Maures, if you read our preview for the numidian faction, you'll see that the Maures are an ancient people now known as Berbers and who live mostly in nowadays Morocco and Algeria. They have 2 fine light infantry and light cavalry units in EBII.

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(from TWC)

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Originally Posted by Phalanx300

Yes and the Chatii were one of the most warlike Germanic societies.

With their youth first having to make a kill before being able to remove a ring around their neck, and in EB to shave their beards.

But I've read in this book that it was actually misunderstood and that the youth were able to remove a ring from their neck and to remove the hair haning over the front head, thus having a pony tail backwards. He also said many sculptures of such Germanic soldiers were found.

And the Batavians were also former Chatii members (thus same customs as above) and were the most praised Auxillia of the Romans.

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Source?

I voted for...


The brigantes...
Syracuse...
Boii...
Lugii...
Tylis...
Bosphoran Kingdom...
Bartix...
Maures...
Massaesylians...
Nabateans...
9 ;)

the celtic Thrakia looks rather interesting, although i really don't know much about the state of Thrace in 272 BC. did they even represent a unified political entity?

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Originally Posted by lobf

Source?

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EB and this book:

http://books.google.nl/books?id=9bId...age&q=&f=false

This book is also great for Germanic info but more focussing on the later times:

http://books.google.nl/books?id=ZEa2...rriors&f=false

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Originally Posted by tarem

the celtic Thrakia looks rather interesting, although i really don't know much about the state of Thrace in 272 BC. did they even represent a unified political entity?

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http://www.caorc.org/fellowships/mel...heodossiev.pdf

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Originally Posted by bobbin

http://www.caorc.org/fellowships/mel...heodossiev.pdf

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thanx, that was an interesting read :2thumbsup: and i always prefer factional opposition on anyone's border instead of eleutheroi. helvetic oposition in the Alps for the Romans and Celtic-Thace in the central Balcans for Makedonia and Epiros should go a great deal in acomplishing more accurate/ chalanging expansion patterns for the said factions and probably force the rome-epiros conflict to a more decisive conflict. in my current game it's 200 BC and the SPQR has conquered 1/2 of France while not taking a single Epirotes city while the Epirotes were compleatly driven off the Balkans by the Makedoinian's who got as far north as the Gethae capitol :egypt:.

voted for:

Boii - to fill the position with an highly interessting faction

also for Kartli and Vaskes for similar reasons

why is not mentioned any slavic faction?

Beacuse there is next to nothing on them for the time period and that it's debatable if they even existed at this point.

Is it just me, or does it seem like there aren't eight factions on this list that meet the EB requirements to make it as a faction? I don't know, I just feel like there are a few obvious ones, but the rest are all kind of iffy in one way or another (not expansionist enough, we don't know enough about them, not enough provinces in the area, not historically influential enough to warrant a faction spot). Obviously, the whole list does not apply to every faction other than the obvious ones, but some of these are hurt by having one or more of these criteria applying to them.

For instance, Syracuse is a big favorite in this poll, but I was under the impression that they were not expansionist enough to make it as an EB faction. Maybe I'm misremembering though, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

It seems that Syracuse had been quite a power for a few centuries, but was deadlocked with Carhage, then overshadowed by a certain bunch of latins as they took over S Italy. From then on it was either for or against these, the course of the Punic wars and the two powers locked in combat left little room for others to assert themselves independently. Everyone in the W Med (plus Macedonia) took sides in that struggle, on one was left out.

When EB starts, well... there is a chance that the Syracusans might reassert themselves and could thus be a faction with its own independent goals.

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Originally Posted by Macilrille

It seems that Syracuse had been quite a power for a few centuries, but was deadlocked with Carhage, then overshadowed by a certain bunch of latins as they took over S Italy. From then on it was either for or against these, the course of the Punic wars and the two powers locked in combat left little room for others to assert themselves independently. Everyone in the W Med (plus Macedonia) took sides in that struggle, on one was left out.

When EB starts, well... there is a chance that the Syracusans might reassert themselves and could thus be a faction with its own independent goals.

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I wasn't implying Syracuse wasn't powerful, I was implying that as far as I had heard, they were content with their status as a sovereign city-state and would not be interested in expansion, but rather only in self-preservation if the Romans or Carthaginians tried to subjugate the city. And I believe one of the general guidelines for an EB faction is that it would be interested in active expansion. But I guess I may have been misremembering the true situation of Syracuse.

I dunno, I have only sketchy knowledge of Syracuse, I do seem to recall that they did fight at least one battle against the Etruscans early on, and later some in Africa against the Carthies, which would hint at a regional strategy at least. The battles in Africa were mostly raids, yet...

I suspect Syracuse's lack of expansion could be explained by being deadlocked with the Carthies, fighting a mostly defensive war against a foe somewhat superior?

I dunno, but that would be my attempt at an explanation.

BTW, I seem to be missing a lot of powerful Germanic tribes in this poll...

:laugh4: the charties had already amassed all of the poeni places suport and where on the rise and litle by litle eliminating the greek setlements so syracuse was on the defensive but for the last 2 centuries before eb startdate the syracusans had been fighting constantly (both poeni and greeks) and trying to gain the upper hand on the megas hellas politics against places as terentum (wich was extremly rich ) until they started to fight amongst themselfs and some people started to rise as tyrants or what we would consider nowadays dictators

sadly the western greeks weren´t united enough as the loss of the corsic lands to the punii showed but i still believe that a western greek faction would be viable and they could try and bring all the western greeks into a single confederacy (emporion syracuse messina massilia ) and try and reconquer the northern part of the western mediterranium from the phoeni this could give the carthies a good fight in sicily at the start (altough in terms of naval power the greeks would be greatly outnumbered by the 5 punic fleets with wich the carthies start off )

probably the best way to represent this would be maybe to give independence to the spanish punic colonies since we don´t really know how close they trully where to carthie except for the trade agreaments and once the greeks gain sicily sardinia the baleares and corsica the city´s of arse and emporium would join the new greek confederacy

the same for the carthies as soon as they kicked the greeks out of sicily and blocked the massilian harbour the iberian punic cities would join carthage as (type 3 or 4 goverments)

it seems a good roleplay mission :idea2:

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Originally Posted by WinsingtonIII

For instance, Syracuse is a big favorite in this poll, but I was under the impression that they were not expansionist enough to make it as an EB faction. Maybe I'm misremembering though, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

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The team has not positively denied that Syracuse will be in, but the main argument against them is that we know very little about their military post-Alexander (Archimedes' death-ray does not count). Syracuse had been a major bulwark against Carthage under earlier tyrants, and the workshops of Dionysus the Elder were hubs of military innovation. However, Dionysus' son was unable to maintain power and the city was wrecked by a series of coups. It was still a regional power by EB's time-frame, but it couldn't hope to take on Carthage as an (almost) equal.

Also, the faction inclusion criteria I know are for EB1. For EB2 the team may have expanded them, or simply decided to include some factions that were tenuous by EB1 standards.

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Originally Posted by Macilrille

BTW, I seem to be missing a lot of powerful Germanic tribes in this poll...

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The basis for that was a few statements by team members I read about how most germanic tribes were lacking the political coheison (or more likely evidence for political coheision) to warrent being represented as a faction at the start date and that the even inclusion of the Sweboz was streching things a bit. I wouldn't know where to find them now as I made the poll quite a while ago.
If i were to make the poll again now i would probably include a few such as the Cimbri or Chauci.

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Originally Posted by WinsingtonIII

I wasn't implying Syracuse wasn't powerful, I was implying that as far as I had heard, they were content with their status as a sovereign city-state and would not be interested in expansion

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Given their long struggle with Carthage you could bet they would at the very least try to extend their power to the whole of Sicily, outside of the island its harder to say if they had any ambitions, they raided Africa but this was part of a wider plan to lessen the pressure on their city and not a attempt at conquest.

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Originally Posted by WinsingtonIII

Is it just me, or does it seem like there aren't eight factions on this list that meet the EB requirements to make it as a faction? I don't know, I just feel like there are a few obvious ones, but the rest are all kind of iffy in one way or another (not expansionist enough, we don't know enough about them, not enough provinces in the area, not historically influential enough to warrant a faction spot). Obviously, the whole list does not apply to every faction other than the obvious ones, but some of these are hurt by having one or more of these criteria applying to them.

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This was made quite a while ago and their are a few that I would certainly remove (or redefine), quite a few have been ruled out at various times by team members but you could still make a strong list of possible factions.
Earlier in the thread Moros stated that 5 factions on the list were in EBII

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Arevaci - A celtiberian tribe
Érainn - A Goidelic (irish) tribe
Aquitanians/Vascones - Non Celtic speaking peoples of southwestern france and northeastern iberia, ancestors of the Basques.
Illegert - a heavily celticised iberian tribe from north eastern iberia (around emporion)
Nervii - A belgic tribe with germannic influences
Brigantes - Powerful british tribe residing in northern england.
Helvetii - Celtic tribe from the alps
Massalia - Greek city state in southern france (modern day marseille)
Ligures - A highly celticised italic people in north west italia
Syracuse - A greek city state in sicily
Boii - A Powerful celtic tribe in eastern central europe (modern day Bohemia)
Lugii - Germanic or slavic tribe in eastern central europe (modern day poland and germany)
Dalmatae - Illyrian tribe
Skordiskoi - Powerful celtic tribe in the balkans (modern day serbia and surrounding areas)
Rhaetians - Alpine tribe with either Celtic or Etruscan roots, or both
Tylis - Celtic kingdom ruling over majority thracian population in southeast balkans.
Bosporan Kingdom - Hellenic kingdom on the north coast of the black sea (modern day Crimea)
Galatia/Bythinia - Celtic kingdom in union with hellenic kingdom (modern day turkey)
Kappadoika - Persian sucessor kingdom, Rebelious satrap of the seleukids(eastern anatolia)
Kartli - Also know as Caucasian Iberia, main rival for the Hai, native Caucasus people, ancestors of modern day georgians.
Atropatene - Persian sucessor kingdom, eastern caucasuses (modern day Azerbaijan)
Nabateans - Semitic Arab Kingdom in the Sinai
Palmyrae - Arab kingdom in modern day syria
Massaesylians - Main rival of the Masaesyli and other major tribal power in numidia
Maures - African kingdom in modern day Mauritania. Ancestors of the Moors
Qataban - Southern arabian state in modern day yemen.
Hadrumaut - Another southern arabian state in modern day yemen.
Massagetae - powerful nomadic tribe in central asia, lie north of the Pahlava.
Kamboja's - Iranian people in northwestern india/hindu kush

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(i crossed out the ones that have either been ruled out or that were in my opinion weak choices.)

From the list I would pick,
Bosporan Kingdom (obviously)
Massaesylians
Boii
Kartli
A Belgae tribe (just putting the Nervi was bit silly i admit, so I'd redefine it as any Belgae tribe)
Arevaci (or other celtiberian tribe)
the final two are a bit tough but the Scordiscii, Kappadoika, Galatia/Bythinia, Atropatene, Helvetii, and some sort of Kamboja tribe would all be strong candidates

Boii
Arevaci
A Belgae tribe
Any Western Med Greek city
Goidils/Arabians (I'll continue to believe)
I'm 100% sure about the bolded ones.

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Originally Posted by Ludens

The team has not positively denied that Syracuse will be in, but the main argument against them is that we know very little about their military post-Alexander (Archimedes' death-ray does not count). Syracuse had been a major bulwark against Carthage under earlier tyrants, and the workshops of Dionysus the Elder were hubs of military innovation. However, Dionysus' son was unable to maintain power and the city was wrecked by a series of coups. It was still a regional power by EB's time-frame, but it couldn't hope to take on Carthage as an (almost) equal.

Also, the faction inclusion criteria I know are for EB1. For EB2 the team may have expanded them, or simply decided to include some factions that were tenuous by EB1 standards.

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Interesting, I was not aware that that was the main reason Syracuse might not make it, for some reason I thought I remembered a team member stating that it was not expansionist enough, but looking back it may have not been a member who said that.

And you're of course right that the criteria could change, and very well might if they cannot find 8 factions who live up to EB1 faction standards.

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Originally Posted by bobbin

This was made quite a while ago and their are a few that I would certainly remove (or redefine), quite a few have been ruled out at various times by team members but you could still make a strong list of possible factions.
Earlier in the thread Moros stated that 5 factions on the list were in EBII

(i crossed out the ones that have either been ruled out or that were in my opinion weak choices.)

From the list I would pick,
Bosporan Kingdom (obviously)
Massaesylians
Boii
Kartli
A Belgae tribe (just putting the Nervi was bit silly i admit, so I'd redefine it as any Belgae tribe)
Arevaci (or other celtiberian tribe)
the final two are a bit tough but the Scordiscii, Kappadoika, Galatia/Bythinia, Atropatene, Helvetii, and some sort of Kamboja tribe would all be strong candidates

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This new list does get rid of some of the weaker candidates, and I definitely agree with your personal top picks (in fact I voted for most of the top 6 you chose). It certainly would be strange if the EB team included the Massylians but left out their major rivals the Massaesylians, the Boii were powerful and help fill an area that was prone to become a power vacuum in EB1, and a Belgae and Celtiberian tribe would fill two other areas that are generally power vacuums as well, plus they all seem to fit what I know of the faction requirements.

The area where I was having trouble was with those final two faction slots as well, but I think any of those final factions you listed could work, I would probably pick Galatia as the seventh (if that happens Asia Minor is going to be a mad house... six factions in one area...), but for the eighth I'm not sure. A Kamboja tribe could be interesting and provide some added resistance to the Baktrians in India though. Of course, there should probably be another Germanic tribe to balance out the Sweboz, but from what I've heard, information on Germanic tribes is fairly scant and making the Sweboz for EB1 was difficult enough. The Helvetti could at least curb their southern expansion though. I'm still hoping that the Nabateans will make it in, but I'm fairly sure that you're right in saying that they probably won't.

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Originally Posted by WinsingtonIII

...the Boii were powerful and help fill an area that was prone to become a power vacuum in EB1, and a Belgae and Celtiberian tribe would fill two other areas that are generally power vacuums as well, plus they all seem to fit what I know of the faction requirements.

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I'd like to support this notion. :thumbsup: If we're pretty well agreed that all the historically expansionist factions of the starting time period are already represented in EB1, then I say new faction decisions should be based upon filling gaps in the campaign map.

To that end, I think the regions most needing factions in EB2 are (in terms of modern political geography) northeast Spain, southwest France, Austria, and perhaps Poland. There are a number of Celtiberian tribes that could flesh out northeastern Spain. The Boii would give central Europe some much needed excitement, and a Belgic tribe would really spice up northern Europe.

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Originally Posted by WinsingtonIII

Of course, there should probably be another Germanic tribe to balance out the Sweboz, but from what I've heard, information on Germanic tribes is fairly scant and making the Sweboz for EB1 was difficult enough.

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Perhaps the Lugii would be a good choice? Currently, eastern Europe seems like a bunch of wasted space, but I can't really suggest another faction that might take advantage of all that.

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Originally Posted by WinsingtonIII

I'm still hoping that the Nabateans will make it in, but I'm fairly sure that you're right in saying that they probably won't.

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:sad2: I'd really, really like to see another faction in that part of the middle east as well. Palmyra would suit me fine.

I agree that most Germanic tribes were too disunited at the start of EB to warrant a faction and you can argue that at in the last half of the 1st century BC and the 1st century AD they were dominant. However, a Cimbrii Faction in Denmark and a Cherusci faction in their province would be pretty nice.

Justification?
-at the time of Caesar the Cherusci under Arminus was a power to be reckoned with and challenged the Suebi confederation under Marbod after throwing of the yoke of Rome.
-The Cimbrii was apparently a power from Ca 135 BC, leading the tribes of Jutland and at that time lending the tribes of it. At Caesar's time they were all part of the Suebi, but that probably happened somewhere between the defeat to Marius and then, though they could have been part of the Suebi even at their great invasion.

Bartix must be in. :brood:

If there are not enough faction slots then they could replace some minor states like Makedonia or Romani.

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Originally Posted by B_Ray

Perhaps the Lugii would be a good choice? Currently, eastern Europe seems like a bunch of wasted space, but I can't really suggest another faction that might take advantage of all that.

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Yeah, I've definitely thought that the Lugii would be great to both balance out the Sweboz and to fill the current power vacuum in Eastern Europe. However, I'm not sure how much information there is on them at the start of the EB time frame, but that seems to be a problem all the Germanic tribes run into.

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:sad2: I'd really, really like to see another faction in that part of the middle east as well. Palmyra would suit me fine.

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Yeah, either Palmyra or Nabatea would be great, plus they are both another Arabic faction, albeit a Northern Arabic faction instead of a Southern one, but I think the EB team has made it very clear that there is simply not enough provinces/info to warrant a second Southern Arabian faction. A Northern one is more likely, but unfortunately I still have this feeling neither of them will make it. I don't have any proof of that, but it's just what it seems like to me.

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Originally Posted by WinsingtonIII

Yeah, I've definitely thought that the Lugii would be great to both balance out the Sweboz and to fill the current power vacuum in Eastern Europe. However, I'm not sure how much information there is on them at the start of the EB time frame, but that seems to be a problem all the Germanic tribes run into.




Yeah, either Palmyra or Nabatea would be great, plus they are both another Arabic faction, albeit a Northern Arabic faction instead of a Southern one, but I think the EB team has made it very clear that there is simply not enough provinces/info to warrant a second Southern Arabian faction. A Northern one is more likely, but unfortunately I still have this feeling neither of them will make it. I don't have any proof of that, but it's just what it seems like to me.

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as long as I'm around, there will be at least be a northern arabian one. you'll see.:clown:

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Originally Posted by Ibrahim

as long as I'm around, there will be at least be a northern arabian one. you'll see.:clown:

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Haha I certainly hope that you're right, it gets really tedious switching off between fighting the AS and the Ptolies when you're in that region, especially since their armies tend to be quite similar.

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Originally Posted by Ibrahim

as long as I'm around, there will be at least be a northern arabian one. you'll see.:clown:

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So it was you who put that dead horse in my bed!?

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Originally Posted by Moros

So it was you who put that dead horse in my bed!?

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yes, it was I.:clown:

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Originally Posted by Ibrahim

yes, it was I.:clown:

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Glad you admit it, otherwise them policemen had to do some hard work. Anyway if you could just remain still before you computer, so they can easily find and arrest you. They should already be on their way. See you in court! :yes:

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Originally Posted by Moros

Glad you admit it, otherwise them policemen had to do some hard work. Anyway if you could just remain still before you computer, so they can easily find and arrest you. They should already be on their way. See you in court! :yes:

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:laugh4::laugh4:

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Originally Posted by Ibrahim

:laugh4::laugh4:

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Yeah it takes a time for them to come.Our little surreal country isn't close by. Either way they informed me that they just landed. They've taken a cab to your place so it won't take too long anymore. Though they were thinking about perhaps doing some sightseeing first.

actually, he just arrived.

turns out he's my brother.:inquisitive:

anyways, seriously: will there be a definite answer to the question of having a north arabian faction? the EB team keeps sending mixed messages.

There will be a definite answer, at some point during the preview of all the new factions in EBII (of course, we may keep some secret for the release. Who knows?)

Foot

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Originally Posted by Ibrahim

the EB team keeps sending mixed messages.

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Hey, let me have my fun too!

Anyway the case for an north arabian faction is't that strong. Palmyra was (as far as I know) not of much importance untill after our end date. The Qedar weren't anything special anymore. Except for the nabataeans there wasn't much special, just some minor nomad tribes and trading settlements like dedan. For the Nabataeans we have almost no historical information on their military except their late appearances in the works of Josephus. We only know they used light spearmen and archers and some cavalry and camelry. However I can't think of any archeological find of a weapon, shield, armour, or depictions from the 5th century until the late 2nd Century BC. Except for some vey unclear and not much revealing grafiti. So the only faction that in my eyes has merit, is almost unreschearchable during almost all of our timeframe.

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Originally Posted by Moros

Anyway the case for an north arabian faction is't that strong.
...
For the Nabataeans we have almost no historical information on their military except their late appearances in the works of Josephus.
...
So the only faction that in my eyes has merit, is almost unreschearchable during almost all of our timeframe.

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I always dread posting my opinions on this forum since it seems a safe bet that I'm amongst the most ignorant about the topics at hand, but I'll risk sounding like a fool and say this. Does substantial, superior information on the Kingdom of Saba/Sheba really exist, relative to the Nabataean Kingdom? Prior to reading this thread, I didn't know anything about either Saba or the Nabataeans, but a brief Google search yielded much more detailed information on the later than the former. And it appears that the Nabataeans held considerably greater power during EB's time frame than did Sheba. Indeed it seems that Sheba was falling whereas Nabataea was rising. One website even claimed that in the 1st century BC, the Nabataean empire was briefly the largest in the western world (though certainly not the most powerful).

So I have the impression that there is just cause for including the Nabataeans as a playable faction, even if information on their military is sketchy. Is there really more accurate information on the Sabaeans'? And besides, Nabataea would have (for me) a more interesting position on the map and serve to provide the Ptolemies another immediate rival besides the Seleukids. In my campaigns, the AI Ptolemies just spend their first hundred turns chipping away at the Seleukids, who already have enough to deal with, only coming into conflict with the isolated Sabaeans if a province curiously rebels into their possession.

So there's my two cents. :egypt:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by B_Ray

I always dread posting my opinions on this forum since it seems a safe bet that I'm amongst the most ignorant about the topics at hand, but I'll risk sounding like a fool and say this. Does substantial, superior information on the Kingdom of Saba/Sheba really exist, relative to the Nabataean Kingdom? Prior to reading this thread, I didn't know anything about either Saba or the Nabataeans, but a brief Google search yielded much more detailed information on the later than the former. And it appears that the Nabataeans held considerably greater power during EB's time frame than did Sheba. Indeed it seems that Sheba was falling whereas Nabataea was rising. One website even claimed that in the 1st century BC, the Nabataean empire was briefly the largest in the western world (though certainly not the most powerful).

So I have the impression that there is just cause for including the Nabataeans as a playable faction, even if information on their military is sketchy. Is there really more accurate information on the Sabaeans'? And besides, Nabataea would have (for me) a more interesting position on the map and serve to provide the Ptolemies another immediate rival besides the Seleukids. In my campaigns, the AI Ptolemies just spend their first hundred turns chipping away at the Seleukids, who already have enough to deal with, only coming into conflict with the isolated Sabaeans if a province curiously rebels into their possession.

So there's my two cents. :egypt:

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The thing is while I said that I'd consider the nabataeans worthy when it comes to power, expansion, trade,... But we have little sources on them in their early stages. From the first century BC however we have a great number of sources. That's something that's true for most of North arabia. Then we have detailed friezes on armour and equipment. However this was a complete different army and it had completely different equipment when compared to the early armies. The early armies consisted out of light infantry and archers combined with some cavalery and camelry. All pretty light and mostly nomadic. By the First century these men wouldn't look that much different from the average hellene, except perhaps when it comes to his hair and skintone. Therefore we only have petroglyphs, simple childlike carved graffiti, to base of our units as they would have looked the first two centuries.

The Sabaeans have much more sources on the other hand. They left us much more than ten thousand epigraphic texts, thousands of small texts on palmleaves, many freezes. We can use later sources much better as well, as there weren't many changes in the Sabaean armies during our timeframe. (Which has to do with their isolation and archaic culture I guess). The biggest revolution was when the horse was adopted at our later timeframe. Either way as I've told before we will be having more regionals in Arabia in EBII not only in the north but in the other parts as well. Were even working on one of them as we speak.

skytians for the win ? :wall:

joking ofc

i believe an alpine faction as more chances of being elected because they can be economically viable factions thanks to the nice mines, even the boii that people atribute to slovakia and bohemia i believe they bordered the northern illirians of segestica and thus acess to the alps (if they didn´t controlled that pass beteween italy and germania already )

the other chance are the helvetti

i believe that during the discussion beteween the arevaci and the lusitanians where the spanish speakers of the game where complaining about the choice of a faction some team members said they would do their best to protray the iberian reality better by including at least 1 more faction wich everyone assumed it would be the arevaci representing the celtiberians wich where culturally stronger then the lusitanii and thats from where the illergette´s discussion always come from since another historia/fan boy of iberian culture defended that illergette´s (catalunian dude??) should be included if the arevaci where going in (and good thing no vasque showed up with his 7.000 years old language/nation/culture/people ) so the iberian historic reality is even today being debated and used as a weapon for nationalism ...

the french stuff also comes to mind since just in france we could even consider including around 9 diferent factions (wich would break the arverni and eduii since some of the lands with wich they start are actually allied tribes that where fighting with one of the 2 main tribes at the time for the control of gaul or for the right to be the dominant power )

i believe that a belgium faction will finally appear to make things interesting and be a counter balance to the sweboz

syracuse for the win \o :wall: (joking again )

p.s: the ftw´s are jokes cause i defended with great passion the inclusion of those factions and people like odyseus crushed me completly :X