Possible Factions

[bobbin]

Moros posted this on the TWC forums.

Qataban would be cool if we had a bigger focus on Arabia. However the amount of provinces in the Area, doesn't allow for a decent representation in game, and would probably mean that one of them would live very very short. However I'm planning for scripts alike to the celtiberian alliance to complicate and more accurately represent the political situation of the area back then.

But yeah Saba' is going to have a couple of extra units. With 4 units portraying the professional army. Of which 3 new ones the Khms, the Mqdmt (not 100% sure yet if they make it) and the Tmhrt. The fourth are the m'qbt malīkīm, also known as the Royal guard, which represent the bodyguard unit.

I don't think I can give you guys anymore information.

So it seems Qataban and Hadrumaut are unlikley to be in, on the plus side we've got the names of 2 (possibly 3) new Sabean units.

[Moros]

I am a great liar, no?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Sorry I can't help writing things like this. The info is 100% accurate.

[bobbin]

Oh you!

[Macilrille]

Seem to miss a lot of German tribes in this poll. And Gauls...

Volcae Tectosages, Cimbri/Teutons, Marcomanni, etc...

[Ca Putt]

I still opt for a Chatti faction :DDD

were the marcomanni not member of the the sweboz federation? at least that's Tacitus' opinion. still they were one of the most important Germanic tribes and would work well in a Bavaria vs Prussia war in 272 ^^.

[Phalanx300]

I still opt for a Chatti faction :DDD

were the marcomanni not member of the the sweboz federation? at least that's Tacitus' opinion. still they were one of the most important Germanic tribes and would work well in a Bavaria vs Prussia war in 272 ^^.

I'm pretty sure the Marcomanni are already a part of the Sweboz in EB.

And yes a Chatii faction would great.

[Ca Putt]

I kind of like understatements(and yes this is an understatement)

[bobbin]

Seem to miss a lot of German tribes in this poll. And Gauls...

Volcae Tectosages, Cimbri/Teutons, Marcomanni, etc...

There was a maximum of 30 options so i couldn't go overboard with the Gauls as for the german tribes i was under the impression that many were difficult candidates for factions and that even the inclusion of the Sweboz was a bit iffy. That said there are a few choices on my poll that fall into the same catagory, if i were to go for one it would probably be the Cimbri.

[Macilrille]

Cimbrii (+Teutons, which are as far as I can ascertain mentioned by Pytheas and would thus be the first known German tribe) would definately be nice, starting in Jutland. Problem is that they and the Sweboz would butt heads right from the start. Chatti is a possibility, and despite their participation in Ariovistus' campaign and later being part of the Sweboz Confederacy/tribe, so is the Marcomanni IMO. Or even the Cherusci.

I just want more Germans...

[Phalanx300]

Yes and the Chatii were one of the most warlike Germanic societies.

With their youth first having to make a kill before being able to remove a ring around their neck, and in EB to shave their beards.

But I've read in this book that it was actually misunderstood and that the youth were able to remove a ring from their neck and to remove the hair haning over the front head, thus having a pony tail backwards. He also said many sculptures of such Germanic soldiers were found.

And the Batavians were also former Chatii members (thus same customs as above) and were the most praised Auxillia of the Romans.

[bobbin]

Looks like we can scratch th Maures off the list too.

They have a place in the game, but they don't meet the criteria to be one of the EBII factions. We have always to weight and compare with other powers throughout the hellenistic period. Not all had the possibility to build a worldwide empire (given the right circumstances) and the Maures by 272BC certainly didn't have it. But, united under the Numidian kings banner, and having their ethnicities within the Numidian faction, one of their own princes may become king of Numidia and conquer the EBII world. We certainly hope to see the Maures cavalry fighting in the sarmatian steppes - that would be a fantastic campaign!

As for what are the Maures, if you read our preview for the numidian faction, you'll see that the Maures are an ancient people now known as Berbers and who live mostly in nowadays Morocco and Algeria. They have 2 fine light infantry and light cavalry units in EBII.

(from TWC)

[lobf]

Yes and the Chatii were one of the most warlike Germanic societies.

With their youth first having to make a kill before being able to remove a ring around their neck, and in EB to shave their beards.

But I've read in this book that it was actually misunderstood and that the youth were able to remove a ring from their neck and to remove the hair haning over the front head, thus having a pony tail backwards. He also said many sculptures of such Germanic soldiers were found.

And the Batavians were also former Chatii members (thus same customs as above) and were the most praised Auxillia of the Romans.

Source?

[eddy_purpus]

I voted for...


The brigantes...
Syracuse...
Boii...
Lugii...
Tylis...
Bosphoran Kingdom...
Bartix...
Maures...
Massaesylians...
Nabateans...
9 ;)

[tarem]

the celtic Thrakia looks rather interesting, although i really don't know much about the state of Thrace in 272 BC. did they even represent a unified political entity?

[Phalanx300]

Source?

EB and this book:

http://books.google.nl/books?id=9bId...age&q=&f=false

This book is also great for Germanic info but more focussing on the later times:

http://books.google.nl/books?id=ZEa2...rriors&f=false

[bobbin]

the celtic Thrakia looks rather interesting, although i really don't know much about the state of Thrace in 272 BC. did they even represent a unified political entity?

http://www.caorc.org/fellowships/mel...heodossiev.pdf

[tarem]

http://www.caorc.org/fellowships/mel...heodossiev.pdf

thanx, that was an interesting read and i always prefer factional opposition on anyone's border instead of eleutheroi. helvetic oposition in the Alps for the Romans and Celtic-Thace in the central Balcans for Makedonia and Epiros should go a great deal in acomplishing more accurate/ chalanging expansion patterns for the said factions and probably force the rome-epiros conflict to a more decisive conflict. in my current game it's 200 BC and the SPQR has conquered 1/2 of France while not taking a single Epirotes city while the Epirotes were compleatly driven off the Balkans by the Makedoinian's who got as far north as the Gethae capitol .

[Tartaros]

voted for:

Boii - to fill the position with an highly interessting faction

also for Kartli and Vaskes for similar reasons

[Imperator Invictus]

why is not mentioned any slavic faction?

[bobbin]

Beacuse there is next to nothing on them for the time period and that it's debatable if they even existed at this point.

[WinsingtonIII]

Is it just me, or does it seem like there aren't eight factions on this list that meet the EB requirements to make it as a faction? I don't know, I just feel like there are a few obvious ones, but the rest are all kind of iffy in one way or another (not expansionist enough, we don't know enough about them, not enough provinces in the area, not historically influential enough to warrant a faction spot). Obviously, the whole list does not apply to every faction other than the obvious ones, but some of these are hurt by having one or more of these criteria applying to them.

For instance, Syracuse is a big favorite in this poll, but I was under the impression that they were not expansionist enough to make it as an EB faction. Maybe I'm misremembering though, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Macilrille]

It seems that Syracuse had been quite a power for a few centuries, but was deadlocked with Carhage, then overshadowed by a certain bunch of latins as they took over S Italy. From then on it was either for or against these, the course of the Punic wars and the two powers locked in combat left little room for others to assert themselves independently. Everyone in the W Med (plus Macedonia) took sides in that struggle, on one was left out.

When EB starts, well... there is a chance that the Syracusans might reassert themselves and could thus be a faction with its own independent goals.

[WinsingtonIII]

It seems that Syracuse had been quite a power for a few centuries, but was deadlocked with Carhage, then overshadowed by a certain bunch of latins as they took over S Italy. From then on it was either for or against these, the course of the Punic wars and the two powers locked in combat left little room for others to assert themselves independently. Everyone in the W Med (plus Macedonia) took sides in that struggle, on one was left out.

When EB starts, well... there is a chance that the Syracusans might reassert themselves and could thus be a faction with its own independent goals.

I wasn't implying Syracuse wasn't powerful, I was implying that as far as I had heard, they were content with their status as a sovereign city-state and would not be interested in expansion, but rather only in self-preservation if the Romans or Carthaginians tried to subjugate the city. And I believe one of the general guidelines for an EB faction is that it would be interested in active expansion. But I guess I may have been misremembering the true situation of Syracuse.

[Macilrille]

I dunno, I have only sketchy knowledge of Syracuse, I do seem to recall that they did fight at least one battle against the Etruscans early on, and later some in Africa against the Carthies, which would hint at a regional strategy at least. The battles in Africa were mostly raids, yet...

I suspect Syracuse's lack of expansion could be explained by being deadlocked with the Carthies, fighting a mostly defensive war against a foe somewhat superior?

I dunno, but that would be my attempt at an explanation.

BTW, I seem to be missing a lot of powerful Germanic tribes in this poll...

[moonburn]

the charties had already amassed all of the poeni places suport and where on the rise and litle by litle eliminating the greek setlements so syracuse was on the defensive but for the last 2 centuries before eb startdate the syracusans had been fighting constantly (both poeni and greeks) and trying to gain the upper hand on the megas hellas politics against places as terentum (wich was extremly rich ) until they started to fight amongst themselfs and some people started to rise as tyrants or what we would consider nowadays dictators

sadly the western greeks weren´t united enough as the loss of the corsic lands to the punii showed but i still believe that a western greek faction would be viable and they could try and bring all the western greeks into a single confederacy (emporion syracuse messina massilia ) and try and reconquer the northern part of the western mediterranium from the phoeni this could give the carthies a good fight in sicily at the start (altough in terms of naval power the greeks would be greatly outnumbered by the 5 punic fleets with wich the carthies start off )

probably the best way to represent this would be maybe to give independence to the spanish punic colonies since we don´t really know how close they trully where to carthie except for the trade agreaments and once the greeks gain sicily sardinia the baleares and corsica the city´s of arse and emporium would join the new greek confederacy

the same for the carthies as soon as they kicked the greeks out of sicily and blocked the massilian harbour the iberian punic cities would join carthage as (type 3 or 4 goverments)

it seems a good roleplay mission

[Ludens]

For instance, Syracuse is a big favorite in this poll, but I was under the impression that they were not expansionist enough to make it as an EB faction. Maybe I'm misremembering though, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

The team has not positively denied that Syracuse will be in, but the main argument against them is that we know very little about their military post-Alexander (Archimedes' death-ray does not count). Syracuse had been a major bulwark against Carthage under earlier tyrants, and the workshops of Dionysus the Elder were hubs of military innovation. However, Dionysus' son was unable to maintain power and the city was wrecked by a series of coups. It was still a regional power by EB's time-frame, but it couldn't hope to take on Carthage as an (almost) equal.

Also, the faction inclusion criteria I know are for EB1. For EB2 the team may have expanded them, or simply decided to include some factions that were tenuous by EB1 standards.

[bobbin]

BTW, I seem to be missing a lot of powerful Germanic tribes in this poll...

The basis for that was a few statements by team members I read about how most germanic tribes were lacking the political coheison (or more likely evidence for political coheision) to warrent being represented as a faction at the start date and that the even inclusion of the Sweboz was streching things a bit. I wouldn't know where to find them now as I made the poll quite a while ago.
If i were to make the poll again now i would probably include a few such as the Cimbri or Chauci.

I wasn't implying Syracuse wasn't powerful, I was implying that as far as I had heard, they were content with their status as a sovereign city-state and would not be interested in expansion

Given their long struggle with Carthage you could bet they would at the very least try to extend their power to the whole of Sicily, outside of the island its harder to say if they had any ambitions, they raided Africa but this was part of a wider plan to lessen the pressure on their city and not a attempt at conquest.

Is it just me, or does it seem like there aren't eight factions on this list that meet the EB requirements to make it as a faction? I don't know, I just feel like there are a few obvious ones, but the rest are all kind of iffy in one way or another (not expansionist enough, we don't know enough about them, not enough provinces in the area, not historically influential enough to warrant a faction spot). Obviously, the whole list does not apply to every faction other than the obvious ones, but some of these are hurt by having one or more of these criteria applying to them.

This was made quite a while ago and their are a few that I would certainly remove (or redefine), quite a few have been ruled out at various times by team members but you could still make a strong list of possible factions.
Earlier in the thread Moros stated that 5 factions on the list were in EBII

Arevaci - A celtiberian tribe
Érainn - A Goidelic (irish) tribe
Aquitanians/Vascones - Non Celtic speaking peoples of southwestern france and northeastern iberia, ancestors of the Basques.
Illegert - a heavily celticised iberian tribe from north eastern iberia (around emporion)
Nervii - A belgic tribe with germannic influences
Brigantes - Powerful british tribe residing in northern england.
Helvetii - Celtic tribe from the alps
Massalia - Greek city state in southern france (modern day marseille)
Ligures - A highly celticised italic people in north west italia
Syracuse - A greek city state in sicily
Boii - A Powerful celtic tribe in eastern central europe (modern day Bohemia)
Lugii - Germanic or slavic tribe in eastern central europe (modern day poland and germany)
Dalmatae - Illyrian tribe
Skordiskoi - Powerful celtic tribe in the balkans (modern day serbia and surrounding areas)
Rhaetians - Alpine tribe with either Celtic or Etruscan roots, or both
Tylis - Celtic kingdom ruling over majority thracian population in southeast balkans.
Bosporan Kingdom - Hellenic kingdom on the north coast of the black sea (modern day Crimea)
Galatia/Bythinia - Celtic kingdom in union with hellenic kingdom (modern day turkey)
Kappadoika - Persian sucessor kingdom, Rebelious satrap of the seleukids(eastern anatolia)
Kartli - Also know as Caucasian Iberia, main rival for the Hai, native Caucasus people, ancestors of modern day georgians.
Atropatene - Persian sucessor kingdom, eastern caucasuses (modern day Azerbaijan)
Nabateans - Semitic Arab Kingdom in the Sinai
Palmyrae - Arab kingdom in modern day syria
Massaesylians - Main rival of the Masaesyli and other major tribal power in numidia
Maures - African kingdom in modern day Mauritania. Ancestors of the Moors
Qataban - Southern arabian state in modern day yemen.
Hadrumaut - Another southern arabian state in modern day yemen.
Massagetae - powerful nomadic tribe in central asia, lie north of the Pahlava.
Kamboja's - Iranian people in northwestern india/hindu kush

(i crossed out the ones that have either been ruled out or that were in my opinion weak choices.)

From the list I would pick,
Bosporan Kingdom (obviously)
Massaesylians
Boii
Kartli
A Belgae tribe (just putting the Nervi was bit silly i admit, so I'd redefine it as any Belgae tribe)
Arevaci (or other celtiberian tribe)
the final two are a bit tough but the Scordiscii, Kappadoika, Galatia/Bythinia, Atropatene, Helvetii, and some sort of Kamboja tribe would all be strong candidates

[Subotan]

Boii
Arevaci
A Belgae tribe
Any Western Med Greek city
Goidils/Arabians (I'll continue to believe)
I'm 100% sure about the bolded ones.

[WinsingtonIII]

The team has not positively denied that Syracuse will be in, but the main argument against them is that we know very little about their military post-Alexander (Archimedes' death-ray does not count). Syracuse had been a major bulwark against Carthage under earlier tyrants, and the workshops of Dionysus the Elder were hubs of military innovation. However, Dionysus' son was unable to maintain power and the city was wrecked by a series of coups. It was still a regional power by EB's time-frame, but it couldn't hope to take on Carthage as an (almost) equal.

Also, the faction inclusion criteria I know are for EB1. For EB2 the team may have expanded them, or simply decided to include some factions that were tenuous by EB1 standards.

Interesting, I was not aware that that was the main reason Syracuse might not make it, for some reason I thought I remembered a team member stating that it was not expansionist enough, but looking back it may have not been a member who said that.

And you're of course right that the criteria could change, and very well might if they cannot find 8 factions who live up to EB1 faction standards.

This was made quite a while ago and their are a few that I would certainly remove (or redefine), quite a few have been ruled out at various times by team members but you could still make a strong list of possible factions.
Earlier in the thread Moros stated that 5 factions on the list were in EBII

(i crossed out the ones that have either been ruled out or that were in my opinion weak choices.)

From the list I would pick,
Bosporan Kingdom (obviously)
Massaesylians
Boii
Kartli
A Belgae tribe (just putting the Nervi was bit silly i admit, so I'd redefine it as any Belgae tribe)
Arevaci (or other celtiberian tribe)
the final two are a bit tough but the Scordiscii, Kappadoika, Galatia/Bythinia, Atropatene, Helvetii, and some sort of Kamboja tribe would all be strong candidates

This new list does get rid of some of the weaker candidates, and I definitely agree with your personal top picks (in fact I voted for most of the top 6 you chose). It certainly would be strange if the EB team included the Massylians but left out their major rivals the Massaesylians, the Boii were powerful and help fill an area that was prone to become a power vacuum in EB1, and a Belgae and Celtiberian tribe would fill two other areas that are generally power vacuums as well, plus they all seem to fit what I know of the faction requirements.

The area where I was having trouble was with those final two faction slots as well, but I think any of those final factions you listed could work, I would probably pick Galatia as the seventh (if that happens Asia Minor is going to be a mad house... six factions in one area...), but for the eighth I'm not sure. A Kamboja tribe could be interesting and provide some added resistance to the Baktrians in India though. Of course, there should probably be another Germanic tribe to balance out the Sweboz, but from what I've heard, information on Germanic tribes is fairly scant and making the Sweboz for EB1 was difficult enough. The Helvetti could at least curb their southern expansion though. I'm still hoping that the Nabateans will make it in, but I'm fairly sure that you're right in saying that they probably won't.

[B-Wing]

...the Boii were powerful and help fill an area that was prone to become a power vacuum in EB1, and a Belgae and Celtiberian tribe would fill two other areas that are generally power vacuums as well, plus they all seem to fit what I know of the faction requirements.

I'd like to support this notion. If we're pretty well agreed that all the historically expansionist factions of the starting time period are already represented in EB1, then I say new faction decisions should be based upon filling gaps in the campaign map.

To that end, I think the regions most needing factions in EB2 are (in terms of modern political geography) northeast Spain, southwest France, Austria, and perhaps Poland. There are a number of Celtiberian tribes that could flesh out northeastern Spain. The Boii would give central Europe some much needed excitement, and a Belgic tribe would really spice up northern Europe.

Of course, there should probably be another Germanic tribe to balance out the Sweboz, but from what I've heard, information on Germanic tribes is fairly scant and making the Sweboz for EB1 was difficult enough.

Perhaps the Lugii would be a good choice? Currently, eastern Europe seems like a bunch of wasted space, but I can't really suggest another faction that might take advantage of all that.

I'm still hoping that the Nabateans will make it in, but I'm fairly sure that you're right in saying that they probably won't.

I'd really, really like to see another faction in that part of the middle east as well. Palmyra would suit me fine.