This Week's Evil Islam Thread

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

So, muslims are required to state that they do not sympathize with extremism, while I don't need to state that I don't sympathize with nazism?

As a leftie, do I need to state that I don't agree with Gulag? Or Kim Jung-Il? Or the cultural revolution? The moscow trials? Pol pot? As a white european, do I need to state that I don't agree with slavery or imperialism?


Or does this just apply to scary brown people?

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No, HoreTore, that's still not what I said and I think you know it pretty well.

I won't play along in these kind of games, so I'm going to limit myself to : read my post again.

:bow:

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Originally Posted by Andres

No, HoreTore, that's still not what I said and I think you know it pretty well.

I won't play along in these kind of games, so I'm going to limit myself to : read my post again.

:bow:

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So, only muslims or those defending some muslims need to make it clear that they do not sympathize with extremist practices.


Just checkin'.....

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

So, only muslims or those defending some muslims need to make it clear that they do not sympathize with extremist practices.


Just checkin'.....

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No, HoreTore, that's also not what I said.

I was expressing how I dislike the technique of responding to this kind of news in a "not all muslims are like that", in the meanwhile ignoring the issue at hand and then let the debate boil down to something about tolerance and a X vs. Y thread.

Why can't we talk about if we are willing to accept the indoctrination of children by adults to hate people of other relgions in our modern society? You talk about debate and all that, but in the meanwhile, these children's minds will be indoctrinated and it will be very difficult to "debate" that out of them when they're grown-ups. Adults can do what they want in their free time with other consenting adults, be it SM or letting yourself be indoctrinated by the friendly neighbourhood terrorist. The OP speaks of children of 6; those are not adults.

In fact, I would go as far as calling this kind of indoctrination of 6 year old children to hate other people because of their religion (or lack thereof) child abuse. And child abusers should be locked up. Not debated.

The fact that the child abusers happen to be Muslims is irrelevant. Even trying to do something that resemblings something that looks like trying to label the persons mentioning this child abuse as muslim haters, is in pretty bad taste.

We don't want to lock up pedophile priests because they are Cahtolics, we want to lock them up because they are pedo's. Idem dito with child abusres who happen to be muslim. No need to go all "but not all muslims are like that!" here. As I said, that's very bad taste and very misplaced.

But it does make me interested in why you need it from muslims, specifically...

I've been here for 5 years now, and spent waaaaay too many hours here, and I have yet to see anything even remotely close to support of extremist islamist views. I have, however, seen the following:

-Support for "fire and brimstone"-christianity along the lines of "gays should be whacked"(even though Navaros might've been a troll)
-Several statements that 11-year old incest victims should be convicted of murder if they choose abortion
-Statements that the "wehrmacht wasn't all that bad and besides they tried to rescue the world from filthy commies"
-Statements that Screbrenica is a lie/way overblown
-That it's fair game to torture the enemies of the west
-etc etc etc

And yet, you need clarification on whether a particular orgah has views nobody on these forums have ever held.... Makes me very interested indeed.

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Originally Posted by Andres

I was expressing how I dislike the technique of responding to this kind of news in a "not all muslims are like that", in the meanwhile ignoring the issue at hand and then let the debate boil down to something about tolerance and a X vs. Y thread.

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Do you dislike statements like "not all catholic priests are like that"?

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

So, muslims are required to state that they do not sympathize with extremism, while I don't need to state that I don't sympathize with nazism?

As a leftie, do I need to state that I don't agree with Gulag? Or Kim Jung-Il? Or the cultural revolution? The moscow trials? Pol pot? As a white european, do I need to state that I don't agree with slavery or imperialism?


Or does this just apply to scary brown people?

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When people feel the need to start about christianity when you criticise islam you usually know enough; apoligist. It's like the gutmensch that solemny declares he condems violence on both sides, they never do that 'yes but Israel'

There is a fine difference between, a) identifying something as, say 'Saudi cultural imperialism' or 'Wahabist extremism', to refine the subject. And, b) the protest that 'not all Muslims are evil'. The latter serves a purpose as a protest against unfounded generalisation. The former is usually said to further debate. Sadly, both closely resemble each other, and between writer and reader and assumptions of what the other intents there can develop a world of miscommunication.


One does not always need to assume evil intention, or racist undertones. For example, even though I have now two threads running in the BR about evil Muslims, does not mean I hate them. For example, I am looking at a Muslim right now, my colleague, just in the next room. I don't think of him as an Untermensch, a subhuman, an inferior. That would be nazistic, well below me. Instead I consider him a human of flesh and blood, put on this earth by Jesus Christ to bring me coffee and elsewise serve his white master.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

But it does make me interested in why you need it from muslims, specifically...

I've been here for 5 years now, and spent waaaaay too many hours here, and I have yet to see anything even remotely close to support of extremist islamist views. I have, however, seen the following:

-Support for "fire and brimstone"-christianity along the lines of "gays should be whacked"(even though Navaros might've been a troll)
-Several statements that 11-year old incest victims should be convicted of murder if they choose abortion
-Statements that the "wehrmacht wasn't all that bad and besides they tried to rescue the world from filthy commies"
-Statements that Screbrenica is a lie/way overblown
-That it's fair game to torture the enemies of the west
-etc etc etc

And yet, you need clarification on whether a particular orgah has views nobody on these forums have ever held.... Makes me very interested indeed.

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It was not necessarily directed at alh_p in se. Meh, keep refusing to understand what I tried to say, if that makes you happy.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Do you dislike statements like "not all catholic priests are like that"?

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When said in the context of a thread about pedophiles who happen to be Catholic priests: yes.

Just like I dislike the statement "Not all muslims are like that" in a thread about child abusers who happen to be muslim.

Context. Time and place for everything.

I think we all know it's not all Muslims, and it's just not most Muslims either. I think the main problem is the thought whether Muslims do or do not regard extremists as Muslim or not. I think that's the main issue here. We're already aware that it is a (tiny) minority of Muslims commiting terrorist acts. It's just about how the other Muslims perceive them. And due to political inclinations we have, we either think that, 1) the mainstay of Muslims do not respect, condemn or publicly state their disapproval of Muslims commiting terrorist acts 2) the mainstay of Muslims doesn't care about Muslims commiting terrorist acts or 3) the mainstay of Muslims (silently) agree with Muslims commiting terrorist acts.

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Originally Posted by Hax

I think we all know it's not all Muslims, and it's just not most Muslims either. I think the main problem is the thought whether Muslims do or do not regard extremists as Muslim or not. I think that's the main issue here. We're already aware that it is a (tiny) minority of Muslims commiting terrorist acts. It's just about how the other Muslims perceive them. And due to political inclinations we have, we either think that, 1) the mainstay of Muslims do not respect, condemn or publicly state their disapproval of Muslims commiting terrorist acts 2) the mainstay of Muslims doesn't care about Muslims commiting terrorist acts or 3) the mainstay of Muslims (silently) agree with Muslims commiting terrorist acts.

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These schools don't call for terrorism, they are much more dangerous than that, it's voluntary apartheid, parallel society's with different laws. That is unacceptable.

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Originally Posted by Hax

I think we all know it's not all Muslims, and it's just not most Muslims either. I think the main problem is the thought whether Muslims do or do not regard extremists as Muslim or not. I think that's the main issue here. We're already aware that it is a (tiny) minority of Muslims commiting terrorist acts. It's just about how the other Muslims perceive them. And due to political inclinations we have, we either think that, 1) the mainstay of Muslims do not respect, condemn or publicly state their disapproval of Muslims commiting terrorist acts 2) the mainstay of Muslims doesn't care about Muslims commiting terrorist acts or 3) the mainstay of Muslims (silently) agree with Muslims commiting terrorist acts.

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I don't care if religious guy A does or does not think Mister B holds the same religion as him or not.

What I do care about is that this kind of child abuse stops.

It's pretty distasteful to reduce this matter to a debate about muslims and the different interpretations of their religion. I don't care about what theological arguments one whishes to talk about to decide if a Catholic pedophile priest is a true Catholic or not; I want the damned pervert behind bars. Your religion is completely and utterly irrelevant here and to think that it's all about your religion is a form of arrogance.

This is child abuse and child abusers must be arrested and locked up.

I wasn't commenting on the situation (for it doesn't warrant any comments, these people should be locked up) but on discussions about Islam in general. As Louis pointed out, the argument of "not all Muslims are like this" can pretty much kill any form of discussion.

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This is child abuse and child abusers must be arrested and locked up.

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Exactly.

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Originally Posted by Andres

I don't care if religious guy A does or does not think Mister B holds the same religion as him or not.

What I do care about is that this kind of child abuse stops.

It's pretty distasteful to reduce this matter to a debate about muslims and the different interpretations of their religion. I don't care about what theological arguments one whishes to talk about to decide if a Catholic pedophile priest is a true Catholic or not; I want the damned pervert behind bars. Your religion is completely and utterly irrelevant here and to think that it's all about your religion is a form of arrogance.

This is child abuse and child abusers must be arrested and locked up.

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I don't buy it. I'd consider telling a gay 12-year old that all gays go to hell(phsychological damage) or ":daisy: country x deserves to be nuked"(racist indoctrination) child abuse, but I don't see locking up his parents a reasonable or good way of solving that poblem.

And don't pretend like it's the only solution to it, and that all other proposals is just apologizing or agreement. This is an after-school thing, we should have a school system good enough that young people will question it. I was taught by my school that there was a god in heaven, but I've never believed that, have I?

The second problem is that this is just an organized way of handing down a system of traditions, beliefs and values from one generation to another. The school is just a tool, taking that away will change nothing, parents are still free to instill the values taught by this school in their children, whatever you may think of that is quite irrelevant. You won't even know that it is happening(by contrast, a school like this gets the problem out in the open, so we are aware of it and can debate and counter it).

The end result is that another solution is needed, one that is about debate and education, not jails. Because the law simply can't touch a parent who wants to teach their offspring that killing gay people is fine.

Bottom line is that I just don't see limiting freedom of speech as a solution, even calls for violence.

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Originally Posted by Hax

I wasn't commenting on the situation (for it doesn't warrant any comments, these people should be locked up) but on discussions about Islam in general. As Louis pointed out, the argument of "not all Muslims are like this" can pretty much kill any form of discussion.

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Well anyone sane understands that most muslims only care about what's for dinner and the bills. But there is this odd need to defend them anyway, there is no need to put things in perspective, it's the one who tries to do so that's holding the broad brush, I know muslims aren't evil.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

I don't buy it. I'd consider telling a gay 12-year old that all gays go to hell(phsychological damage) or "shitty country x deserves to be nuked"(racist indoctrination) child abuse, but I don't see locking up his parents a reasonable or good way of solving that poblem.

And don't pretend like it's the only solution to it, and that all other proposals is just apologizing or agreement. This is an after-school thing, we should have a school system good enough that young people will question it. I was taught by my school that there was a god in heaven, but I've never believed that, have I?

The second problem is that this is just an organized way of handing down a system of traditions, beliefs and values from one generation to another. The school is just a tool, taking that away will change nothing, parents are still free to instill the values taught by this school in their children, whatever you may think of that is quite irrelevant. You won't even know that it is happening(by contrast, a school like this gets the problem out in the open, so we are aware of it and can debate and counter it).

The end result is that another solution is needed, one that is about debate and education, not jails. Because the law simply can't touch a parent who wants to teach their offspring that killing gay people is fine.

Bottom line is that I just don't see limiting freedom of speech as a solution, even calls for violence.

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Agree and disagree.

I agree that the state should not intervene with how parents decide to raise their child. However, in this case, we're talking about massively organised indoctrination of children (5000 students? 6 year olds? That's not a case of daddy saying "all gays should go to hell" in the presence of his son). It's a completely different story than parents learning their kids value X or idiocy Y.

I don't necessarily want to lock up the parents, but I wouldn't mind seeing those teachers and those organising this stuff being locked up.

Imho, this whole thing has absolutely nothing to do with "freedom of speech" or "freedom of religion", but I assume you and I will disagree on that.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Well anyone sane understands that most muslims only care about what's for dinner and the bills. But there is this odd need to defend them anyway, there is no need to put things in perspective, it's the one who tries to do so that's holding the broad brush, I know muslims aren't evil.

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Indeed.

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Originally Posted by Andres

but I wouldn't mind seeing those teachers and those organising this stuff being locked up.

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Just what will that accomplish?

And do note that it's not the teachers who demand the children attend the schools, it's the parents who send them there to ease their burden, just like we all do. The parents send them there to learn what the parents want them to learn. The children will still learn the same values, your action will just have the parents teach them.

Hence why the whole lot need to be deported where they can find a corner of the globe that encourages their beliefs and practices. Abscesses need to be incised and drained.

~:smoking:

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Just what will that accomplish?

And do note that it's not the teachers who demand the children attend the schools, it's the parents who send them there to ease their burden, just like we all do. The parents send them there to learn what the parents want them to learn. The children will still learn the same values, your action will just have the parents teach them.

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What it will accomplish? Dismantling this whole organisation. Some of those parents might still teach their children that crap, but I would be surprised if all of them would do so. The scary part is the organised mass indoctrination of children to hate (and kill?) people of other religions aka organised child abuse. Sure, dad and mom may still abuse their own child themselves; doesn't mean that we shouldn't stop the known organised mass indoctrination to hate and kill.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Just what will that accomplish?

And do note that it's not the teachers who demand the children attend the schools, it's the parents who send them there to ease their burden, just like we all do. The parents send them there to learn what the parents want them to learn. The children will still learn the same values, your action will just have the parents teach them.

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You are less likely to rebel against religious schools than your parents, much more social control as it's 'official'. These schools are a problem, they teach what goes against our values as an official institution, elevating muslim law over secular law. We would be nuts to allow that, this goes beyond relgion as a personal thing. But it's indeed also simply child-abuse.

Little addition, it's the same social control that forces parents to put their children on these schools, the 'uncles' will come at your door asking you why they aren't, refusing forget it, who's going to help you.

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Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

Hence why the whole lot need to be deported where they can find a corner of the globe that encourages their beliefs and practices. Abscesses need to be incised and drained.

~:smoking:

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We don't do deportations in civilised 21st century countries anymore.

Besides, basically, you will be deporting people for behaving like idiots. If we're going to have do deport everybody who behaves like an idiot, there won't be many people left :shrug:

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Originally Posted by Andres

If each time the reaction when such news comes out has to be "but not all muslims are like that", then you are at least giving the impression of being an apologist. Sure, you didn't say that you agree with children getting this kind of "education", but it wouldn't hurt if you would first start with explicity condemning this and then ask people to be careful not to think all muslims are like that.

Maybe it's not your intention, but this is exactly the kind of reaction I'm getting enough of. It comes accros as apologising, trying to divert attention away from this unacceptable event and making people scared to be labeled as "racist muslim haters" when they're rightfully disgusted by something as children being indoctrinated to hate non-muslims.

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Andres, for what it's worth, this thread starts on page one -as did the train of my comments:

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Originally Posted by alh_p

This is clearly unacceptable.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I admit my first thought was "lets keep this in perpective", but 5000 students is a lot of people to poison with this rot. My google fu has failed me in finding (recent) statistics on independant faith schools in Britain. It would be interesting to know how big a chunk of the independant Islamic sector this represents. I also know bugger-all about the governance of independant schools, or what powers there are to limit this kind of hideous curriculum.

Re the Saudis, I can quite imagine that this does have nothing to do with the Saudi government, it's most likely to be some sort of charity. Plus, the Saudis govt is really only bothered about what happens at home and not so much about the country's non-petroleum based exports.

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I am guilty of often jumping in on the defensive, but I feel that has a lot to do with the starting post in many of the threads here, not least the standard media perceptions (which usually initiate a debate) and their focus on the fruity fringe issues.

Your "annoyance with appologists" is concerning, but I can't help but feel that the main problems with debate on Islam are that the debate itself revolves around the "extreme" salients and that there is a massive lack of understanding all round.

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Originally Posted by Andres

What it will accomplish? Dismantling this whole organisation. Some of those parents might still teach their children that crap, but I would be surprised if all of them would do so. The scary part is the organised mass indoctrination of children to hate (and kill?) people of other religions aka organised child abuse. Sure, dad and mom may still abuse their own child themselves; doesn't mean that we shouldn't stop the known organised mass indoctrination to hate and kill.

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Would be true if it was the institution that tried to "indoctrinate" the children. Won't have any effect at all if the parents hold those values, and wish to pass them on to the next generation.

But I believe we've reached the point where both our positions are made, were we find the other position rational and we'll just have to agree to disagree, as our conflict is one of different thoughts of life in general, not this specific issue.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

You are less likely to rebel against religious schools than your parents, much more social control as it's 'official'. These schools are a problem, they teach what goes against our values as an official institution, elevating muslim law over secular law. We would be nuts to allow that, this goes beyond relgion as a personal thing. But it's indeed also simply child-abuse.

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No, this is not an official institution. This is an after-school thing, aka it is done in the childrens free time. Kinda like a sunday school.

Check my edit

I agree with your points. But to use the example of Catholic Paedophile Priests, most Catholics and eventually the Church itself came out against them - hence they are marginalised by their own.

The general perception - and I am sure the Media is partly responsible for this - is that most Moderate Muslims remain silent in speaking out against this which would allow the majority to marginalise these individuals. Many might feel that there is no need to do so as clearly this is the work of fringe nutters, but as in exams thinking that is not displayed is not often assumed.

Although there is a lack of understanding, there is none required on this particular issue: they are wrong and should be punished / removed from the UK. These two issues should not be linked, as invariably one gets unfairly tainted with the other.

~:smoking:

I wouldn't call this child abuse, they aren't in any way directly harming the children.

Also, are they making any direct calls for violence? Maybe it's just me but I want to live in a world where people are allowed to hate other people. Stay out of my head please. :yes:

And sure, people will say, stay out of these childrens' heads. But they are minors, parents and institutions have a right to teach them. I bet a few hundred years ago they could have argued it is child abuse to make a child believe they live in a godless universe.

If you won't support free speech all the time then don't get upset when you find yourself deprived of it. :shrug:

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Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr

I wouldn't call this child abuse, they aren't in any way directly harming the children.

Also, are they making any direct calls for violence? Maybe it's just me but I want to live in a world where people are allowed to hate other people. Stay out of my head please. :yes:

And sure, people will say, stay out of these childrens' heads. But they are minors, parents and institutions have a right to teach them. I bet a few hundred years ago they could have argued it is child abuse to make a child believe they live in a godless universe.

If you won't support free speech all the time then don't get upset when you find yourself deprived of it. :shrug:

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There's a line, free speech shouldn't endanger others, limits the freedom of the hated, makes no sense no?

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Originally Posted by Fragony

There's a line, free speech shouldn't endanger others, limits the freedom of the hated, makes no sense no?

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But were there direct calls for violence? That's where the line usually is, no reason why it shouldn't be in this case.

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Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr

But were there direct calls for violence? That's where the line usually is, no reason why it shouldn't be in this case.

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Besides that for example gays have to burn in this life as well?

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Besides that for example gays have to burn in this life as well?

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What's the difference in saying "that guy should be killed" and "that guys country should be nuked"?

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Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr

Yeah, WWII is not the best example, since something like 85% of the Wehrmacht was deployed fighting the non-democratic USSR on the Eastern Front. Although I read somewhere else around 70% of the German war effort more generally (as opposed to manpower) was for the Western Front.

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Depends how you define "war effort". Luftwaffe was present more on the eastern front in the beginning, later more on the western and practically entire Kriegsmarine was on the western front all the time. Western front as in fighting the western allies. Even knowing that, most of the German war effort supported fight in the east so I really don't think 70% was used to fight western allies.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

I take this as support for my position...

Except for the first one, the american revolutionaries certainly did not have a bigger production capability or more money than the British Empire.

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Sorry, I just glanced before replying and thought you meant ACW, not American revolution. Yeah, you're right, but in that case there were many other factors at play (French intervention, war weariness in Britain etc...)

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Besides that for example gays have to burn in this life as well?

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Does it call for these children to do and lynch them themselves? Or does it simply take a 'moral' stance in saying this is what the law ought to do? We had a couple of debates in school on whether or not we should have the death penalty. That goes against what we now deem to be human rights (here in Euroland at least), so should we all have been banned from talking about such things/deported?

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

What's the difference in saying "that guy should be killed" and "that guys country should be nuked"?

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One is taught the other isn't

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

What's the difference in saying "that guy should be killed" and "that guys country should be nuked"?

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Because it is only one person who is not innocent.

The other represents millions of innocents dying, due to the influence of one man, who would not be dying with them.

An evil Islam thread? I like this idea... kind of a one-stop-shop for all the awful things going on in the Islamic world instead of countless threads every week. This ought to be stickied as I don't see it running short on content any time soon.

Feds: Somali-born teen plotted car-bombing in Ore.

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PORTLAND, Ore. – Undercover agents in a sting operation arrested a Somali-born teenager just as he tried blowing up a van full of what he believed were explosives at a crowded Christmas tree lighting ceremony in Portland, federal authorities said.

The bomb was a fake supplied by the agents and the public was never in danger, authorities said.

Mohamed Osman Mohamud, 19, was arrested at 5:40 p.m. Friday just after he dialed a cell phone that he thought would set off the blast but instead brought federal agents and police swooping down on him.

Yelling "Allahu Akbar!" — Arabic for "God is great!" — Mohamud tried to kick agents and police after he was taken into custody, according to prosecutors.

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Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr

Yeah, WWII is not the best example, since something like 85% of the Wehrmacht was deployed fighting the non-democratic USSR on the Eastern Front. Although I read somewhere else around 70% of the German war effort more generally (as opposed to manpower) was for the Western Front.

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This is incorrect unless it refers to two very specific periods of the war - the Battle of France (when the USSR was a German Ally) or the Ardennes Offensive - and in the case of the latter it is still a stretch.

Anti Muslim Brotherhood Posters Seen In Its Strongholds

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Posters attacking the Muslim Brotherhood and describing them as violent were seen displayed in some governorates only hours before Sunday’s parliamentary elections, eyewitnesses said.
Most of these posters were seen in Alexandria, Suez, and Ismailia, where the Brotherhood is particularly active.
In Alexandria's Ramleh constituency, posters read: "Remember their black history" and "No to the Brotherhood, they preach blind compliance or expulsion". The posters carried the signature "Youth Against Oppression".
In Ismailia, the birthplace of the Brotherhood and one of its current strongholds, the same posters were distributed in the larger constituencies.
In Suez, the same posters were put up right under the Brotherhood's publicity posters.
The posters were predominantly black in color and displayed next to the publicity posters of the Brotherhood and the ruling National Democratic Party (NDP).
The NDP on Thursday launched a wide-scale publicity campaign accusing the Brotherhood of violating the constitution and working to transform Egypt into a religious state.
The campaign also comes in the wake of an announcement by the NDP that it has filed a complaint with the Attorney General Office, in a step that could lead to Brotherhood candidates’ being cancelled after they are voted into parliament.
The current Brotherhood candidate for the Ramleh constituency, Sobhy Saleh, meanwhile, declined to accuse any one entity of putting up those posters.
"I haven't seen them and they are of no concern to me," he said. "This in not an election. This is some sad game and these are black days for the Egyptian people."
The NDP’s secretary in Alexandria, Saeed al-Daqqaq, said the NDP has nothing to do with the posters in question.
Translated from the Arabic Edition.

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They are no longer all that violent but nice, very nice, don't mind being a hypocrite when it concerns these peaches

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Missed the point entirely, bro.

Banning private schools altogether is, of course, the only possible way forward. This is far from the only instance of "loony private school"-syndrome, even if it is more graphic than other cases. Stop 'em altogether, they have nothing to offer society.

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Banning all public schools would be equally effective. Require ALL schooling to be private. Have your Islamist schools and a BNP academy as well (though staffing it might leave the rest of the BNP bereft of literati).

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

Banning all public schools would be equally effective. Require ALL schooling to be private. Have your Islamist schools and a BNP academy as well (though staffing it might leave the rest of the BNP bereft of literati).

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Uhm, no.... Making all schools private will allow schools like these, not remove them, while making all schools public will remove them... Not quite sure what you're onto here...

And in any case, this isn't a school as such, and this point is now irrelevant to this particular discussion.

Or Freedom of Religion be damned and just banned these Muslims schools outright? :idea2::juggle2:

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Originally Posted by AntiKingWarmanCake88

Or Freedom of Religion be damned and just banned these Muslims schools outright? :idea2::juggle2:

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That would be kinda be destroying our own values, muslims can have islamic schools and mosques no problem, the problem is and will always be the islamphilae of the multiculti's who will never accept that there might be even a hint of a problem, even the mere suggestion upsets their inner mother, they get vicious shreek and claw when all ducklings don't march in a straight line. A dying breed but oh so creepy.

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Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger

An evil Islam thread? I like this idea... kind of a one-stop-shop for all the awful things going on in the Islamic world instead of countless threads every week. This ought to be stickied as I don't see it running short on content any time soon.

Feds: Somali-born teen plotted car-bombing in Ore.

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I wonder how much of that was the FBI pushing him. It seems like a lot of their terror busts are where the FBI informant was the main force behind encouraging an attack.

CR

Leftist insanity du jour, immigrant kids systematicaly get higher marks. Just because.

Owwwwwwwww the leftist church and their ideals

edit Wait, even equality isn't 100% equal, Turks get 0.6 on tops because they are Turkish, Marrocans only get 0.4 for free over Dutchies.

ES MUSS SEIN

Frag - link or it doesn't exist.

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I wonder how much of that was the FBI pushing him. It seems like a lot of their terror busts are where the FBI informant was the main force behind encouraging an attack.

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Good point. This terrorist was an easily impressionable teenager. Even normal friends without an explicit agenda can turn an otherwise fine young man into an emo goth with a girly purse and black lipstick.

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

Frag - link or it doesn't exist.


Good point. This terrorist was an easily impressionable teenager. Even normal friends without an explicit agenda can turn an otherwise fine young man into an emo goth with a girly purse and black lipstick.

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Why doubt me, it's true. Link is Dutch but fine http://www.elsevier.mobi/pl/svt/si/e...5966/pa/159497 The crave got really bad

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Leftist insanity du jour, immigrant kids systematicaly get higher marks. Just because.

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I don't know about your country, but this leftie works at a school with 40% immigrants and gives no higher marks to any group.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

I don't know about your country, but this leftie works at a school with 40% immigrants and gives no higher marks to any group.

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Yeah sure but here they do, the equality DEMANDS

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Why doubt me, it's true.

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It's not about doubt, it is about sources.

Event X. Person A relates X to B. B relates A's version of X to C. C's version of X will now already be incomprehensible to those familiar with the original X.

Links in the Backroom to substantiate claims, or else there's no serious discussion.

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

It's not about doubt, it is about sources.

Event X. Person A relates X to B. B relates A's version of X to C. C's version of X will now already be incomprehensible to those familiar with the original X.

Links in the Backroom to substantiate claims, or else there's no serious discussion.

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You have gotten a source, learn Dutch if you want to read it, you might even get some bonuspoints for just trying, but a paintjob is probably going to give you that boost up anyway

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Originally Posted by Fragony

You have gotten a source, learn Dutch if you want to read it, you might even get some bonuspoints for just trying, but a paintjob is probably going to give you that boost up anyway

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Dutch is easy for anybody who's mastered English or German. Also, a link in any language is better than no links. (See: Tribesman)

Meanwhile I spend a fine fifteen minutes quickly reading through this article:

Moroccan pupils in the Netherlands get punished more by their teacher than white pupils:
http://tue.academia.edu/PerrydenBrok...ic_Backgrounds

Because the students are little pests? Yes, they are. But there are mechanisms at work why they should behave like that, why the teacher-pupil interaction should be the way it is. Dutch schools are far from culture neutral indeed.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Europe finally has a school that is teaching something other than liberal hogwash, and the conservatives are mad about it....?

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and conservatives find it odd that liberals actively supported the mechanisms that encourage the propgation of extremist material in British schools, when no good liberal worth his salt believes in such nasty things themselves, or would approve of acquaintences who hold such views.

but somehow, when its somebody else outside your immediate circle, and it involves different coloured people, we can write it off as multi-culturalism!

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

Dutch is easy for anybody who's mastered English or German. Also, a link in any language is better than no links. (See: Tribesman)

Meanwhile I spend a fine fifteen minutes quickly reading through this article:

Moroccan pupils in the Netherlands get punished more by their teacher than white pupils:
http://tue.academia.edu/PerrydenBrok...ic_Backgrounds

Because the students are little pests? Yes, they are. But there are mechanisms at work why they should behave like that, why the teacher-pupil interaction should be the way it is. Dutch schools are far from culture neutral indeed.

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Not our fault, they are less intelligent because of consistant inbreeding. Most are really really dumb, they are simply too stupid, the odd one that isn't a retard has great prospects.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Not our fault, they are less intelligent because of consistant inbreeding. Most are really really dumb, they are simply too stupid, the odd one that isn't a retard has great prospects.

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...............

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

Frag - link or it doesn't exist.


Good point. This terrorist was an easily impressionable teenager. Even normal friends without an explicit agenda can turn an otherwise fine young man into an emo goth with a girly purse and black lipstick.

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Like the first time an older French gentleman sedueced me with his giant


I agree

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Not our fault, they are less intelligent because of consistant inbreeding. Most are really really dumb, they are simply too stupid, the odd one that isn't a retard has great prospects.

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lulz

Let me be very clear: Blatant racism is against forum rules.

If you wish to make a point against whole racial or national groups, at the very least back it up with research or statistics. Unsubstantiated generalisations are a sign of feeble thinking and unwelcome on this board when insulting entire groups.

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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

I wonder how much of that was the FBI pushing him. It seems like a lot of their terror busts are where the FBI informant was the main force behind encouraging an attack.

CR

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I wouldn't doubt that the feds took this right up to the edge of entrapment, but he still pushed the button.

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You have gotten a source, learn Dutch if you want to read it

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Interestingly, the same logic that Muslim scholars use when it comes to analysing the Qur'an.

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Originally Posted by Hax

Interestingly, the same logic that Muslim scholars use when it comes to analysing the Qur'an.

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It's a shield of authority having to consult them, but it's pretty clear what it says.

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It's a shield of authority having to consult them, but it's pretty clear what it says.

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Uuh, right. That doesn't explain why there are four different schools of jurisprudence.

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Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost

(COLOR="#DarkGreen")

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Is that a forum bug that your text is appearing Pink to me even though you specified Dark Green?

[Feel free to move this to watchtower/whatever]

Related note: I approve of BQ's message. Bigotry isn't wanted here.

It may be because I left a hash in there. It's now removed. Are things still pink?

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Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost

It may be because I left a hash in there. It's now removed. Are things still pink?

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What pink? The page seems to work perfectly fine for me. All in black, with the exception of the little intervention in green.

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Originally Posted by Hax

Uuh, right. That doesn't explain why there are four different schools of jurisprudence.

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Illeteracy, makes it easy. Ask the imam.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Illeteracy, makes it easy. Ask the imam.

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Ask the Catholic church. It is why they didn't want the bibles translated.

"Didn't want" is hardly a strong enough term. "Tried to torture and kill anyone who even suggested it for centuries" is more accurate.

~:smoking:

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Originally Posted by Beskar

Ask the Catholic church. It is why they didn't want the bibles translated.

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Gutenberg says anything to you. Reflex anyway, if you insist on comparing christanity with the islam you only show that you know nothing about either.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Gutenberg says anything to you. Reflex anyway, if you insist on comparing christanity with the islam you only show that you know nothing about either.

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All religions are the same.

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Originally Posted by Beskar

All religions are the same.

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No that's bull, islam is both a stateform (well not really a state, but a political ideoligy) and a religion. Christianity is set in society, islam dictates society. Not a particular fan of either mind you, all religions are pretty much equal in the amount of patience I have for the religious, being somewhat less patient with muslims comes naturally cause they whine more.

Christianity doesn't set society, but it used to and it wasn't a power that was given up easily. Islam is more entrenched at the moment.

Muslims complain about being discriminated on the West. There was one on TV last night stating this. He was dressed in a cap, a long beard and wore robes. Of course the fact he's not bothered to integrate at all is not a factor of the discrimination... The other elephant in the room is the utter lack of equality of religions in so many Islamic countries. When other religions can convert people there in the way Muslims can over here then we can have a chat. As it stands you are in deep trouble possessing a bible.

~:smoking:

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Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

Christianity doesn't set society, but it used to and it wasn't a power that was given up easily. Islam is more entrenched at the moment.

Muslims complain about being discriminated on the West. There was one on TV last night stating this. He was dressed in a cap, a long beard and wore robes. Of course the fact he's not bothered to integrate at all is not a factor of the discrimination... The other elephant in the room is the utter lack of equality of religions in so many Islamic countries. When other religions can convert people there in the way Muslims can over here then we can have a chat. As it stands you are in deep trouble possessing a bible.

~:smoking:

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Islam isn't missionary.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

No that's bull, islam is both a stateform (well not really a state, but a political ideoligy) and a religion. Christianity is set in society, islam dictates society. Not a particular fan of either mind you, all religions are pretty much equal in the amount of patience I have for the religious, being somewhat less patient with muslims comes naturally cause they whine more.

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No it isn't. Christianity was heavily dictating society (see: Inquisition and various references) and is very much political ideology, even having a big influence today (See: American politics). So anything you say Islam does, Christainity has done, at least historically. Same for the Hindu religion and many others.

It is just the natural traits of religion, and it is not just 'Islam', it is all religions. They are all used as means of control and power.

On other notes, many muslims are as religious as catholics I know. They just went through some service as a kid, and just call themselves Muslim/Catholic for the rest of their lives. But for some reason, you attack these as well just because of the label of 'Muslim'.

It is would be more correct to be attacking "aggressive religion"which includes all the bad bits of Islam, and all the bad bits from Christian Fundamentalism as well. All your examples are not just unique within Islam, they are elsewhere as well.

I am against all aggressive religions, I don't cherry pick the 'sensationalist pick of the hour' which Islam pretty much falls under since 9/11.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Islam isn't missionary.

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Yet there are both forced conversions as well as individuals calling for others to convert.

~:smoking:

@Beskar, what has been done doesn't matter, what has to be done matters. Bible is written in passed pressence there is no obligation god can handle things just fine, that is totally different from the islam who sends mankind on a mission in the name of god

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Originally Posted by Fragony

@Beskar, what has been done doesn't matter, what has to be done matters. Bible is written in passed pressence there is no obligation god can handle things just fine, that is totally different from the islam who sends mankind on a mission in the name of god

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The solution to that would be the naturalization of 'Western Liberal Democracy' into the population. So where many Christianities cherry-pick from the bible, many Muslims cherry-pick from the Koran.

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Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

Yet there are both forced conversions as well as individuals calling for others to convert.

~:smoking:

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Ever had a muslim missionary knock on your door?

Me neither.

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Originally Posted by Beskar

The solution to that would be the naturalization of 'Western Liberal Democracy' into the population. So where many Christianities cherry-pick from the bible, many Muslims cherry-pick from the Koran.

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Not the same thing still, christianity is a force within a system, it isn't out to change it. Democracy and islam can't coexist, doesn't mean we should fight islam, but the islam can't be integrated we have different take on things. Let's just stay out of eachother's way.

So... knocking on doors is the only thing that missionaries do?

I've had several with speakers / pamphlets / books on street corners. Just publicly updating believers, eh? :dizzy2:

~:smoking:

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Democracy and islam can't coexist, doesn't mean we should fight islam, but the islam can't be integrated we have different take on things.

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Interestingly, we have seen that Shi'ite states in the past have succeeded in modernising their society quite well. The Buwayhids (or Buyids, however you like it) nearly had a sort of proto-laïcité like state, where religion was not a matter of the state, but rather of the people. The basic tenets of Sunni Islam have some democratic elements in them as well, although that does not make them fully democratic.

Fragony, I recommend "The History of Islamic Political Thought" by professor Antony Black. It's an excellent review of numerous Islamic political concepts ranging from the early Rashidun Caliphate to the present.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Not the same thing still, christianity is a force within a system, it isn't out to change it. Democracy and islam can't coexist, doesn't mean we should fight islam, but the islam can't be integrated we have different take on things. Let's just stay out of eachother's way.

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I disagree. Extreme right wing Jews for example will put religious law above all others. They can not be integrated; many Jews in Germany put secular law above religious law. They can be.

There are loads of Muslims who are integrated and we don't hear much about them due to this; in the same way Sikhs integrate by carrying either a tiny, blunt dagger or a symbol of one, not the wickedly sharp version they might have done in the last.

Christianity as pracitced in the Middle Ages could not coexist with democracy - look at Charles I in England for example with the divine right of kings. Things have moved on.

It all goes back to that countries appear to be obsessed to have multicultural societies, as opposed to multi-faith and multi-racial societies - but crucially one culture. So, abiding by secular laws foremost for example, and tolerating others should be accepted as normal behaviour by all. By pretending that every culture will somehow get along is unhelpful to say the least.

~:smoking:

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Originally Posted by Hax

Interestingly, we have seen that Shi'ite states in the past have succeeded in modernising their society quite well. The Buwayhids (or Buyids, however you like it) nearly had a sort of proto-laïcite like state, where religion was not a matter of the state, but rather of the people. The basic tenets of Sunni Islam have some democratic elements in them as well, although that does not make them fully democratic.

Fragony, I recommend "The History of Islamic Political Thought" by professor Antony Black. It's an excellent review of numerous Islamic political concepts ranging from the early Rashidun Caliphate to the present.

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There are many openings, but the islam as a political ideoligy is a very recent thing, it is no longer just a spriritual thing. We leave them be and they don't impose on us, sounds good?

@Rory, muslims can integrate, but they will have to burn their ships and get on with it, islam has no place here, muslims do

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Not the same thing still, christianity is a force within a system, it isn't out to change it. Democracy and islam can't coexist, doesn't mean we should fight islam, but the islam can't be integrated we have different take on things. Let's just stay out of eachother's way.

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Yes and no.

Yes, in the sense that some Islamists (i.e. Muslims who think Islam should play a central role in politics) see democracy as a foreign (western) construct, alien to Islam.

No, in the sense that other Muslims (including other Islamists) are not hung-up on where ideas come from, or don't perceive democracy as a system alien to Islam -and would hence be happy to use democracy as a system of governance.

The tragic thing is that most Muslims in the world understand "democracy" to be akin to the current systems of governance in Egypt, Pakistan, Palestinian lands etc etc. In other words, not "proper" (in the sense of well balanced and transparent) democracies.