All this proves is there were not enough explosionsQuote:
Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro
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All this proves is there were not enough explosionsQuote:
Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro
Could you please give your source for that? It's not that I doubt the number (okay, I do, but that's not the point), but I'd like to get a look at that statistic myself, to know what we are exactly speaking about here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV
Maybe true but even if it's true, a correlation is not necessarily a causal relation.Quote:
An immigrant IS more likely to be a rapist than a Swede. Face it.
It is not as if this line of thought would be foreign to our western culture. Admittedly it is nowadays (!) more contested here and I might even agree that even after checking for spurious effects Muslims (let's be clear here, you obviously only mean Immigrants with atleast an islamic background) in Sweden are more likely to rape than non-Muslims, but I doubt very much that this is the strongest determinating factor.Quote:
But if you for ONE second think that a western man is MORE likely to rape someone they know at home, than an Arab / African patriarch, then I sincerely start to question your intellectual abilities.
Let us remember, as an example, that many Muslims think the woman have no RIGHT to even say no.
A man from a culture saying woman are not allowed to say no will probably be more likely to rape, than a western man. Would you NOT agree?
What HoreTore implied but didn't state clearly is that the victims of rape by immigrants/muslims are probably immigrants/muslims, too! Even if you wouldn't let them in, this rapes wouldn't go away, they just would vanish out of sweden's statistics. The victims wouldn't be helped much by it at all. Probably it's actually the contrary and they have better chances in Sweden than they would have where they came from (there they might not even have the possibility to report the rape!).
The only thing I will agree to is explain how research and statistics work ~;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV
After that, we could move on to other things.
And no need to send me scrambling for numbers, I know them well enough that most are memorized(at least roughly). ~;)
You want to give a statistics course in the forum? ~;)
The 50-ish conviction percentage is in line with Norway. I find the 50 in reported rapes troublesome though, that's far from what it's like here. First thought is of course differences in reporting, second thought is that it applies to a specific form of rape, namely assault rapes. And you're spot on with your comment on correlation and causation, of course, like the rest of your post :twothumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by Kival
Brottslighet bland personer födda i Sverige och i utlandet, Brå-rapport 2005:17Quote:
Originally Posted by Kival
Invandrare och invandrares barns brottslighet – en statistisk analys, Brå-rapport 1996:2
Brottsutvecklingen i Sverige fram till år 2007, Brå-rapport 2008:23
Diesen m.fl., Likhet inför lagen, Natur och Kultur 2005
Är rättvisan rättvis? Tio perspektiv på diskriminering av etniska och religiösa minoriteter inom rättssystemet, SOU 2006:30
Statistik om gruppvåldtäkter, Brå PM 2000/3
However, let me ASSURE you that the numbers themselves are correct. Even the most immigrant hugging hippie have been forced to accept that they are real, as you see they have taken the battle to trying to explain the numbers, not attack the numbers themselves.
If you look at assault rape, it seems like basically only Swedish girls are targeted, no wonder, Muslim girls are not out unsupervised.
About your last bit, I agree. That is why we should cut down on immigration, so we have money to help people in their actual countries. For the same money we spend housing 10 Somali women here, we could offer basic human rights (and more) to hundreds in Somalia. Food, water, schools, internet yadda yadda....
I am all for helping other nations instead of ruining MY nation.
HoreTore, Again, face it. The numbers are what they are, you can't just make stuff up to explain it. I dare you to logically explain why a WESTERN man would be as likely to rape as a man from a THIRD WORLD COUNTRY WITH BARBARIC VIEWS ON WOMEN.
As someone on these boards once brilliantly said: If you import people from the third world, you will have to be ready to also deal with third world problems.
Again, I am not saying it is "because they are black" or anything. They come from a culture who on these issues are where we were a millennium or so ago. But now I am repeating myself.
Holding your ears going "Lalala you dont know statistics" only makes you come off as having absolutely nothing to back you up.
So again, I dare you to explain what in the western culture would make a man as likely to rape as a guy from, say, the Somali culture. Heck, over there I am pretty damn sure there are no legislation saying you cant have sex with your wive(s) when you please.
You, my dear sir, have NOTHING.
EDIT: HoreTore, an immigrant is 5 times more likely to be accused of rape.
Here in english an summary of the bra- data:
http://bra.se/bra/bra-in-english/hom...-offences.html
I'll try to have a look at the other ones, if I can find them in english.
@Kadagar: 5 times, eh? The crux of it is this: how many hundreds of immigrants would you reject to prevent the rape of one blonde Swedish girl? How many would you let in to ameliorate the rape of one immigrant girl?
Then they aren't very strongly held beliefs, or are formulated with internal leeway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro
Let me concretize it: What would you expect the reaction to be on the part of an individual who believes the invasion of Iran and the destruction of as much infrastructure and life within it is a matter - a personal matter - of Heaven and Hell, to the election of a candidate he believes, rightly or wrongly, to be friendly to Iran?
The end-times...
Got to love leftist logic. Where did he even hint at making such an equation. Leftist people hate facts that don't comfirm their worldview that much is obvious.
Leftist people should watch 'la femme de rue', if they can see it, there is a deeper problem here. Gives a nice impression of what a women's is like in area's that have been enriched with people who have culture. Constant harassment.
Monty, huh?
Now that's a rubbish argument. I want sustainable solutions to make the world a better place.
I can easily moralize back at you: Why do YOU think it is more important to let ten Somalis in, then it is to help hundreds of Somalis build a working life in, or close to, their home region and culture?
Get off your high horse.
I don't see how making Sweden a poorer and more criminal place, where people no longer trust the social contract and their fellow citizen... In the long run will lead to anything positive for the world at large?
Nah, much better we keep Sweden healthy, so we can act to create sustainable solutions for other countries too.
What? The point is that, accepting your data at face value and without any critical analysis - which is what you ask of us - it seems that immigration is responsible for a marginal increase in total rapes, at worst. Hence the tradeoff I posed; ould you be willing to kick out or bar from immigrating some hundreds of Africans to prevent one rape?
I have not moralized. On the other hand, it's all you've managed to do.Quote:
I can easily moralize back at you
So, help them how? What could be more helpful than moving to a wealthy state? What are your alternatives and how are they cheaper than loose immigration policies?Quote:
help hundreds of Somalis build a working life in, or close to, their home region and culture?
'Help them to be far away from me', apparently?
Not so marginal, you have absolutely no idea what you are yapping about.
Similar in Norway in areas where culture has been enriched
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=u6k9P7L3tYk
And same in Denmark if looking at last few years. And if one looks at total numbers from 2004 to today the overall is around a third. So it is a rising trend.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV
Take the same numbers, take the amount of immigrants, and take in the area's they occur into the equation. I don't inow if this is the same in Denmark but in Sweden you are only considered to be of foreign descent if you weren't born there which is of course nonsense, statistical wizzardly and everybody knows that. Some parts of Sweden have a higher rape-rate than South-Africa, women paint their hair to avoid unwanted attention. Again, watch the docu 'la femme de rue' dear lefties, it must be a nightmare to live in Brussels in some area's.Quote:
Originally Posted by CBR
Some street corners have an infinitely higher murder rate than most of the planet. :rolleyes:Quote:
Some parts of Sweden have a higher rape-rate than South-Africa
Sure they do, and in Sweden there are streets with more rapes than South Africa, and probably the universe and surroundings. That is because people like you are unwilling to accept an obvious problem with the way Swedish immigrants think about white chicks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Montmorency
About 5% of the population stand for roughly half the rapes (WAY more if you count assault rapes), and you call their impact marginal? I get the 5% figure when I subtract westerners and East Asians from the group "immigrants", as these immigrant groups are statistically as likely, or less likely, than Swedes to commit these type of crimes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Montmorency
I already answered the "help them how". Build schools, make sure they have food and water, UN troops safeguarding them, give them internet... There are LOTS we can do.
If there are 1.25 million first-generation immigrants in Sweden, and we're taking '6500 rapes' at face value - as well as '50% of rapes by immigrants' - then we should arrive at a metric of 400 immigrants per rape. If you don't like it that simple, then you'd better take Kival & Horetore's nuance more seriously.
If it's Muslims solely that you want to look at, well, you mentioned immigrants being responsible for 50% of rapes, not Muslim immigrants.
Anyway, looking at the statistics on Wiki, you apparently have a negligible amount of them. In fact, the Muslim cohort doesn't seem to be growing much more than 10000 yearly.
This is cheaper than immigration? I'll need some convincing.Quote:
I already answered the "help them how". Build schools, make sure they have food and water, UN troops safeguarding them, give them internet... There are LOTS we can do.
But we don't look at statistics for street corners - we look at citywide, regional, and national statistics. Your line doesn't really mean much without sgnificant elaboration.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
'But we don't look at statistics for street corners - we look at citywide, regional, and national statistics. Your line doesn't really mean much without sgnificant elaboration.'
Is 100% of all assault rapes in Oslo, Norway, a bit of an indication? Same for Sweden probably, at least close it seems
100% of assault rapes in Norway occur in Oslo? Or 100% of assault rapes in Oslo are by immigrants?
Either way, I'm certain there was a thread debunking it just a couple of months ago.
Edit: Ah yes: the 5 assault rapes in 2011, was it? Even you gave up on that point once it met scrutiny.
The numbers I saw mentioned both foreign born and second generation, so no hidden stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
I don't where the rapists lived but the ghettos seem to cause most of the problems with gangs and other crime. Although one can easily find some disturbing comments made by foreigners regarding women, it seems ghettos might be the main reason for the higher crime rates. Not many dared to talk too much about it earlier, for fear of sounding like a racist, but things have changed here resulting in a more open debate. Sweden seems to a few decades behind Denmark, as political correctness has played a bigger role there, but the Sweden Democrats seems to be climbing in the polls so maybe the winds are changing.
^ few posts up, the official statement of the policeQuote:
Originally Posted by Montmorency
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...nt-in-the-room
ffs its rite there
Got trembling hands? It's all in the official statement of the police, I, just my guess, assume you want to the discuss the total of rapes, which happen at parties. Am i right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Montmorency
I have a hard time believing a thread came to the conclusion that immigrants aren't HUGELY over represented in assault rape statistics.Quote:
Originally Posted by Montmorency
Looking at Sweden, it's a fact beyond questioning.
No, the relevance here is Fragony's sweeping claim that 100% of assault rapes in Oslo are committed by immigrants. This notion was handily demolished in the course of the linked thread.Quote:
I have a hard time believing a thread came to the conclusion that immigrants aren't HUGELY over represented in assault rape statistics.
This is a crude way of looking at it, and my metric is an equally crude solution. But there's more than one angle to it. What you miss is that the gross total of rapes going by your statistics is rather low, and a reaction against over a million immigrants over the actions of a few hundred makes no sense. If you could find a source showing that of all immigrants, the one's responsible for rapes are usually Muslim, it would even then not be sufficient basis for any sort of policy action. You would first need to consider that most of these Muslim immigrants are from poor areas. You ought to control for income, education levels, age, and generations since settling. After all this, would you find a meaningful correlation that indicates significant culture shock? Can you do all this? I see it as necessary.Quote:
Looking at Sweden, it's a fact beyond questioning.
You need to get out of the tabloid mindset. 'Oh no Muslims are raping everyone we must do something!' is both ridiculous and unhelpful. At the very least begin by finding a source that can break down crime statistics very finely by demographic.
Furthermore, how do you account for the fact that
I think your post broke there mate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Montmorency
But to give you an answer to the top bit.
WHY do I need to account for income, education levels and so on?
The immigrants are poor and uneducated because they come from poor and uneducated countries. So instead of speaking of Muslims, you can just say "We shouldn't accept as many people from poor and uneducated countries without supervision and teaching".
Just because you LABEL them differently, it really has no effect on the problem at hand. I don't care if they rape because they are Muslim, or because they are poor, or because they are uneducated, or because... or because... and so on...
However, one thing mustn't be forgotten. I don't give a **** about rape statistics compared to the bigger problem of economic drain of society and the upheaval of the social safety.
Yes we have a rape problem, but that we have gone from being a country where you happily pay huge taxes, because you trust the people around you... To a country where you don't trust the people around you... Is what has the most negative impact on society IMHO.
With that said, it's not like I don't respect the white girls who have been gang raped by a bunch of ghetto Negroes. It is a horrible, horrible crime, and we as society must do more to prevent it.
And and and
@ the brit
I can't recall. :shrug:Quote:
I think your post broke there mate.
It obviously tells you who is responsible. Right now you've got it at "immigrants", and perhaps "Muslims", or even "blacks". If all you know is "immigrants are responsible for half of rapes", then concluding 'blacks are the problem' may just be problematic. The information may also inform the solution, one other than just kicking everyone out.Quote:
Just because you LABEL them differently, it really has no effect on the problem at hand. I don't care if they rape because they are Muslim, or because they are poor, or because they are uneducated, or because... or because... and so on...
Now you'll need to demonstrate a significant long-term drain on the economy, and the same for social safety. For instance, if 2nd-to-3rd gen citizens are closer to the national average for crime, would you perceive a "problem"? It needs investigation, not a knee-jerk fear response that may well be totally baseless.Quote:
However, one thing mustn't be forgotten. I don't give a **** about rape statistics compared to the bigger problem of economic drain of society and the upheaval of the social safety.
When you say things like this, you really do sound racist. That white girls aren't the only conceivable rape victim is only the beginning of it...Quote:
With that said, it's not like I don't respect the white girls who have been gang raped by a bunch of ghetto Negroes.
Just rethink your approach to this, as it's got some issues.
'It obviously tells you who is responsible. Right now you've got it at "immigrants", and perhaps "Muslims", or even "blacks". If all you know is "immigrants are responsible for half of rapes", then concluding 'blacks are the problem' may just be problematic. The information may also inform the solution, one other than just kicking everyone out.'
Where did you see any advocating of that? It isn't there it isn't real.
You're spreading misinformations. It is "true" but only if you ignore that not all cases considered rape in sweden are considered rape in S-A and that the report rate in sweden is much higher. Sweden may have a problem in increasing rapes and it may have something to do with the immigrants. The populistic cries of "It's worse there than in South-Africa" are at best missunderstanding of statistics and at worst propaganda. Survey studies from the point of victims put Sweden to an average rape-rate for Europe as it seems so far. But in this short time I can't evaluate that well enough. I would be very suspicious towards anyone who claims to know the relations here just by quoting some numbers from random statistics.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
@Kadagar_AV Are there any studies indicating that the swedish believe in the social system is erroding?
Just one very important thing to consider when looking at criminology data is *not to believe the police data*. They are not neutral. They are an interest group themself. Considering police crime data one always has to have a look what *actually* is measured there. For example the german crime data is about reported crimes and suspects brought to court. While this statistic indicates a big percentage of some crimes to be perpetrated by immigrants, careful analysis af court statistics show, that from the convincted the percentage of immigrants is much smaller. This does not have to apply here, it's meant to examplify the general problem with crime data.
If it's true then how am I spreading misinformation.
Maybe my english isn't good enough but what part did you not understand here?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kival
?Quote:
Survey studies from the point of victims put Sweden to an average rape-rate for Europe as it seems so far
I obliquely put forth the critical fault with the claim that 'parts of City X/Country X have higher rape rates than parts of South Africa'.
Visit South Africa, and you will find a street corner where no rapes have occurred. Visit a Northern European state, and you will find a street corner where a rape has occurred. Thus, a part of Sweden has an infinitely higher rape rate than a part of south Africa. That tells us absolutely nothing about the state of rape crime in the two places. It's a tabloid headline, nothing more.
Yeahyeah Kival, doing fine
This is true, too. I didn't take this line of thought too literally, but if Fagony really compares street to country level all hope is probably already lost....Quote:
Originally Posted by Montmorency
So you understand that your comparison of rape rates doesn't work this way?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Point beingQuote:
Originally Posted by Kival
It's wrong to imply that more rapes occur in sweden than in south-africa. Sweden doesn't have more rapes than average european countries according to studies who do not look at the report rate but at a random sample which is asked if they have been sexually assaulted etc. pp. (at least I read that but I couldn#t get a hand at this survey directly so far). Before you can claim to know the reasons for the numbers, we have to understand the numbers themselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
EDIT: I do btw. not claim to know it, I just try to explain you that your data don't tell us anything useful here.
Monty, are you on drugs? No really, where do you find me supporting "kicking everybody out".
We need to take care of those we have here properly, and we need to think twice before accepting more. Again, we accept 1+% of our population a year. That is HUGE!! We accept WAY more than other comparable countries, and on top of that we accept those other countries don't want.
Don't mistake your nations problems with mine, please.
Long term drain on the economy... There is not one economist who think this is good for Sweden financially. Even the pro-immigration politicians gave up on trying to argue that it is good for economy, and now center their arguments around Sweden being a Beacon Of Good.
Second generation immigrants aren't exactly turning out to be the model citizens we had hoped for. About social safety it gets dismantled bit by bit. I have a hard time imagining ANY Swede would argue against that. The most clear example is that we have gone from a socialist country to a liberal one. People thought socialism was OK back when we were more homogeneous, but now we're not we have suddenly started to think "Hey, why should I pay for him". It's sad, I miss the old Sweden.
About the last bit, sorry, that's how I see it. It's completely UNHEARD of to have a bunch of white guys roaming the streets looking for a immigrant girl to rape, but the other way around has happened frequently. Just because you don't like it, it doesn't mean it isn't true.
When a white girl 2012 goes out for a night out, she has good reasons to fear ending up raped and beaten by a gang. This sort of things just didn't happen some years ago.
Again, assault rape statistics are VERY one sided. Whether you like it or not. And maybe Muslim girls get gang raped too, but we have yet to see the victims, so for now I have to assume the attacks are targeted specifically at white girls.
Racial hate goes both ways you know.
Kival, I wouldn't care much about Frags to be honest, and I find it annoying that he seem to be supporting me. Not long ago he claimed Hitler didn't oppose Jews in "Mein Kampf", and then defended this ridiculous position to the extremes. I have put him on ignore since, and judging by the reactions on his posts thus far, I seem to have no reason to regret it.
No, Muslim girls get shot in the head for defending the right to education. They have it easy!
You're missing the point.Quote:
Monty, are you on drugs? No really, where do you find me supporting "kicking everybody out".
What are you basing this on? And how about third, and on?Quote:
Second generation immigrants aren't exactly turning out to be the model citizens we had hoped for.
You still haven't demonstrated long-term economic harm.Quote:
Long term drain on the economy... There is not one economist who think this is good for Sweden financially.
Going by the Wiki, it's more like 0.1%. Where did you get that figure from again? Anyway, you seem to be conflating "immigrant" with "poor, black, Muslim". The majority of your immigrants remain European.Quote:
We need to take care of those we have here properly, and we need to think twice before accepting more. Again, we accept 1+% of our population a year.
Huh?Quote:
Don't mistake your nations problems with mine, please.
Ah, so ethnic Swedes never rape brown women? Where did you learn this?Quote:
About the last bit, sorry, that's how I see it. It's completely UNHEARD of to have a bunch of white guys roaming the streets looking for a immigrant girl to rape, but the other way around has happened frequently. Just because you don't like it, it doesn't mean it's true.
There are two main ways of looking at it. The first is that these Muslim women are repressed and wouldn't typically report non-consensual sexual behavior on the part of spouses or relatives. The second is that the Muslims - especially black ones - just can't wait to get at the white women. You honestly don't find anything funny about the second interpretation?Quote:
Again, assault rape statistics are VERY one sided. Whether you like it or not. And maybe Muslim girls get gang raped too, but we have yet to see the victims, so for now I have to assume the attacks are targeted specifically at white girls.
Racial hate goes both ways you know.
Moreover, assault rapes: are you referring to Sweden or Norway here? After all, if Sweden is anything like Norway in this respect, then immigrant assault rapes aren't a huge problem.
So, it's all about immigration and has nothing to do with Sweden's economic struggles in the 90s?Quote:
Second generation immigrants aren't exactly turning out to be the model citizens we had hoped for. About social safety it gets dismantled bit by bit. I have a hard time imagining ANY Swede would argue against that. The most clear example is that we have gone from a socialist country to a liberal one. People thought socialism was OK back when we were more homogeneous, but now we're not we have suddenly started to think "Hey, why should I pay for him". It's sad, I miss the old Sweden.
EXACTLY my point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hax
There are HUGE numbers of people who would benefit from Sweden's help (and other western nations of course). The solution to that problem is not "Get them all here", unless you want to more or less empty the third world and settle them in the western one.
The solution to things like that must be to help and support people locally. As I have argued countless times, for the same money we spend on 10 Somalis here, we can feed, clothe and educate a hundred there.
THAT is a progressive and sustainable way to make the world a better place. I don't want Sweden to in 2 generations look like this: http://www.radicalcartography.net/in...ml?chicagodots
Let's face it... People like HoreTore and Monty like to pretend we all want to be together, but when people are given a choice, they choose not to. So why try and force it?
When did I say that? Try again, and this time try to put together an actual argument for why Sweden can't handle its current levels of immigration.Quote:
People like HoreTore and Monty like to pretend we all want to be together, but when people are given a choice, they choose not to.
100? I would believe 12. Got anything to back this up?Quote:
The solution to things like that must be to help and support people locally. As I have argued countless times, for the same money we spend on 10 Somalis here, we can feed, clothe and educate a hundred there.
You'r missing mine. Don't accuse me of wanting to kick everybody out, as you then brush me off as you'r everyday EDL thug or whatever.Quote:
Originally Posted by Montmorency
We can see the effects of second gen immigration already. About third generation, I don't know? Maybe things have worked itself out, maybe we have created a new social class. Most seem to point to the latter as for now, but neither your OR I can say anything about third gen and on. My point is however, why take the risk? I mean, why have a social experiment that could wreck the country?Quote:
What are you basing this on? And how about third, and on?
So I bounce this back, WHY should we continue accepting as much as we do from the countries we do, when all data at the time being - point to it having a negative effect on the country?
As I said, it's a MAJOR social experiment with unforeseeable consequences, why do you feel like risking it?
Uh, have a look at, say, the PISA test results over the last decades. Sweden is in free fall, most Swedes just haven't realized it yet.Quote:
You still haven't demonstrated long-term economic harm.
I don't get my sources from wiki.Quote:
Going by the Wiki, it's more like 0.1%. Where did you get that figure from again? Anyway, you seem to be conflating "immigrant" with "poor, black, Muslim". The majority of your immigrants remain European.
http://www.migrationsverket.se/downl...7980/tabs1.pdf
The trend is going up rather than down, as you can see.
I seriously start to question your reading comprehension. Re-read what I wrote and then consider whether your argument make sense or not...Quote:
Ah, so ethnic Swedes never rape brown women? Where did you learn this?
Yes I do. So can I offer a third perspective or do you somehow think the discussion should be limited to the two perspectives you present?Quote:
There are two main ways of looking at it. The first is that these Muslim women are repressed and wouldn't typically report non-consensual sexual behavior on the part of spouses or relatives. The second is that the Muslims - especially black ones - just can't wait to get at the white women. You honestly don't find anything funny about the second interpretation?
I think I seem to have answered this... Even in DAMN big letters. This size on the letters, even. I am of course referring to Sweden, topic title should give a hint if nothing else. And as mentioned in those big letters, rape isn't my main concern. With that said, I think it's important to be respectful and don't neglect the victims by brushing it off as unimportant.Quote:
Moreover, assault rapes: are you referring to Sweden or Norway here? After all, if Sweden is anything like Norway in this respect, then immigrant assault rapes aren't a huge problem.
Being raped is bad. Being gang raped by a bunch of Negroes is worse.
Oh, we sailed through that quite nicely to be honest, and implemented strategies that has helped us loads in this latest crisis. That's why we are still floating, but with that said, we do have a BIG leak.Quote:
So, it's all about immigration and has nothing to do with Sweden's economic struggles in the 90s?
Ok... so you are arguing like me then, that different cultures does not want to live together? What are you arguing against then?Quote:
Originally Posted by Montmorency
You believe the comparable monetary difference between Sweden and Somalia is around 20%? Really? :inquisitive:Quote:
100? I would believe 12. Got anything to back this up?
What do you mean by that? Considering you're still speaking about white women raped, you have to mean assault rapes by immigrants. You think it's worse to be raped by a stranger than by a family member or a friend...? :inquisitive: Or do you mean that if an assault rape happens it's better to be raped by a white rapist? Sorry, I don't get it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV
Well, first of all I find it kind of natural that gang rape would be seen as worse for the victim than being raped by a single offender. I am sure you agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kival
Secondly a lot of women feel (even) worse being raped by a Negroe. Probably not a popular thing to say out loud, but I can relate to it. If it has to do with the higher risk of getting AIDS or if they just don't like black people (or whatever), I don't know. But I won't pretend it's not a popular opinion just to be politically correct.
That's the point - you have to show that the worst-case is what will befall the country.Quote:
We can see the effects of second gen immigration already. About third generation, I don't know? Maybe things have worked itself out, maybe we have created a new social class. Most seem to point to the latter as for now, but neither your OR I can say anything about third gen and on. My point is however, why take the risk? I mean, why have a social experiment that could wreck the country?
So I bounce this back, WHY should we continue accepting as much as we do from the countries we do, when all data at the time being - point to it having a negative effect on the country?
As I said, it's a MAJOR social experiment with unforeseeable consequences, why do you feel like risking it?
Once again, long-term. Anyway, how is 3% over a decade freefall?Quote:
Uh, have a look at, say, the PISA test results over the last decades. Sweden is in free fall, most Swedes just haven't realized it yet.
What am I to look at? I can't read Swedish.Quote:
I don't get my sources from wiki.
It's what you implied. :shrug:Quote:
I seriously start to question your reading comprehension. Re-read what I wrote and then consider whether your argument make sense or not...
You outright claimed belief in the second perspective.Quote:
Yes I do. So can I offer a third perspective or do you somehow think the discussion should be limited to the two perspectives you present?
Why are you so fixated on Negroes?Quote:
Being raped is bad. Being gang raped by a bunch of Negroes is worse.
I'll spell it out. To feed, clothe, and educate the citizens of a foreign state up to anything resembling Swedish standards, one would have to consider expenses. Who's doing it? How are they getting there? What are they bringing with them? For how long will it last? Where in the country are they trying to have an effect? How is that country's government reacting? Is it making a strong and beneficial commitment to cooperation? Is it making things difficult? And so on...Quote:
You believe the comparable monetary difference between Sweden and Somalia is around 20%? Really?
Just sending a check to a sovereign government won't cut it. With that, you would be "helping" 10 foreigners for every 100 you could help in Sweden - more like.
You really haven't. Put together a coherent and comprehensive case for why Sweden can't maintain its current immigration policies in the long term.Quote:
I think I seem to have answered this... Even in DAMN big letters. This size on the letters, even. I am of course referring to Sweden, topic title should give a hint if nothing else. And as mentioned in those big letters, rape isn't my main concern. With that said, I think it's important to be respectful and don't neglect the victims by brushing it off as unimportant.
That your hysterical stance on immigration needs examination.Quote:
What are you arguing against then?
Tada, it's gone
Monty, I will try to re-phrase myself.
You ask about long term effects of mass-immigration.
I see a few possible outcomes. Some good, some bad. Right now the signs leans towards "bad". But regardless, why risk it?
There are several political approaches we can have, why do you think we should choose what looks like a high risk - low benefit one?
What do you see as the positives of mass immigration from third world countries?
There are a proven and factual set of negatives, what are the positive effects in your opinion, and why do they out weight the negatives?
I think you agree that the solution to solving the problems in the third world isn't to migrate all the citizens there to the western world. So why don't we spend our money and efforts helping people locally, building sustainable solutions, instead of paying of our guilt by letting a limited few in here (where they go on to weaken us, limiting our ability of helping at the big scene).
There, summed it up for you.
No, actually rape by close relatives/friends is worse for the psychological health of the victim, as far as we know. Or actually as far as I remember. Need to check it out if it's really relevant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV
Hearsay or any study indicating that?Quote:
Secondly a lot of women feel (even) worse being raped by a Negroe. Probably not a popular thing to say out loud, but I can relate to it. If it has to do with the higher risk of getting AIDS or if they just don't like black people (or whatever), I don't know. But I won't pretend it's not a popular opinion just to be politically correct.
Have you shown that it is high-risk? "Mass immigration" - from my perspective the scale of Swedish immigration doesn't merit the term. Can you provide a source for the 1% claim, or at least a translation of the one document you did link? What's the breakdown of the immigration statistics for '3rd-Worlders'? What is their growth rate as a demographic? These have some bearing.Quote:
There are several political approaches we can have, why do you think we should choose what looks like a high risk - low benefit one?
These are claims, but there is no argument. I see no reason to accept these premises as true outright. Rather the opposite...Quote:
I think you agree that the solution to solving the problems in the third world isn't to migrate all the citizens there to the western world. So why don't we spend our money and efforts helping people locally, building sustainable solutions, instead of paying of our guilt by letting a limited few in here (where they go on to weaken us, limiting our ability of helping at the big scene).
Oh, sorry. I wasn't talking about domestic rapes. Regardless though, I don't believe you. Hubby not accepting a "no" probably have less psychological impact than being beaten and chain raped by a gang of black people.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kival
But please do prove me wrong if you can be bothered. I find it very hard to believe.
I don't think there are any studies on it, it's just what I have picked up by the girls in my surroundings. But as mentioned, the AIDS factor alone would be enough to swing the decision for me (we don't screen for that when we accept people from highly afflicted countries).Quote:
Hearsay or any study indicating that?
The leftmost column is annual "green cards".Quote:
Originally Posted by Montmorency
"Yugoslavia" would be enough to understand why it's high risk.
The statistics you are asking for is officially censored by the government last I checked, so it might be hard to find official sources.
Huh? It's just "claims"? You think it's feasible to move the entire third world population here? You don't believe in finding local sustainable solutions?Quote:
These are claims, but there is no argument. I see no reason to accept these premises as true outright. Rather the opposite...
And about it weakening Sweden, as mentioned, not even the most immigrant loving politician would claim immigration isn't costing us, so why would YOU???
I hope you were joking with this last bit, or trolling, because it really doesn't read out well.
I'll have a look at it. Maybe not this weekend though, need to actually look at some other statistics for study.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV
I see. Are we speaking about women who have been actually raped or women, who have not been raped but say beforehand they would feel worse raped by a foreigner? That's very different. Because being raped by a foreigner when you also already believe them to be likely rapists doesn't shock your image of the world and yourself so much as a by a non-immigrant (especially a close relative). Physically (!) and short-term it's of course worse to be assault raped but domestic rape leads to suspicion, even paranoia to other close friends. It tends to damage if not destroy your whole social contacts, while assault rape sometimes even strengthens your social bonds. I do realize that I'm mixing up the question of foreign/native and domestic/assault but the thing is that these tend to go hand in hand. Domestic rape from immigrants to non-immigrants tend not to happen very often.Quote:
I don't think there are any studies on it, it's just what I have picked up by the girls in my surroundings. But as mentioned, the AIDS factor alone would be enough to swing the decision for me (we don't screen for that when we accept people from highly afflicted countries).
But I'm really curious about the statistics of the victims. In your numbers claiming these high percentage of immigrant rapists, do they include the status of the victim, too?
All Swedish girls
I counted 22000 immigrants in 2011 from Muslim countries. That's "all the citizens"? As for Somalians: a couple thousand blacks a year won't topple the society. Note: How many Lebanese and Syrian, Iranian and Iraqi immigrants are actually Muslim?Quote:
I think you agree that the solution to solving the problems in the third world isn't to migrate all the citizens there to the western world. So why don't we spend our money and efforts helping people locally, building sustainable solutions, instead of paying of our guilt by letting a limited few in here (where they go on to weaken us, limiting our ability of helping at the big scene).
If you're looking to improve the quality of life of 3rd-Worlders, then local solutions, whatever that means, are a terrible means relative to allowing them to settle in Sweden. This should be obvious. If there is a certain sum that the Swedish government spends to bring in and maintain immigrants, then taking that entire sum and spending it abroad, somewhere, somehow, would simply be a waste of money. Much would be siphoned off in extra administrative and logistical costs (not least due to inferior infrastructure), not to mention corruption. Clearly, an immigrant in Sweden can have a very high quality of life compared to any potential 'improvements' that might be made through donation or even direct intervention (which would be associated with political difficulties anyway).
Reading tip, don't worry this is no rightwing nutjob http://www.dambisamoyo.com/books-and.../book/dead-aidQuote:
Originally Posted by Montmorency
She's smart AND cute http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dambisa_Moyo
Both, I know some women who have been raped too. Unfortunately also a girl, and as I was her teacher (but not mentor) at the time I had to be part of handling it. Regardless though... My main point is that a VERY small percentage of the people stand for a VERY big percentage of the rapes. Something should be done there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kival
However, why are you so set on the rape statistics, and not the other questions at hand?
No the numbers does not include the victims (Sweden censor most information regarding this, not to help racists make a case).
However, assault gang rapes are a big enough thing in this small country for it to get to the news, and yeah, all the victims I have heard of are blonde ethnic girls.
I am sorry, but I have a very hard time taking your seriously when you argue like this. Either you are trolling, or you actually BELIEVE that sustainable solutions for the third world is less feasible than moving the third world here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Montmorency
Regardless, I see it as unfruitful and a waste of my time to continue debating you.
Or do you want to explain how you attempt to move and support these billions of people?
I'll say it again: I don't. Read my posts carefully. Don't be thick. All I want to get across is that your concerns are hyperbolic - they may just be overblown. Consider it.Quote:
you actually BELIEVE that sustainable solutions for the third world is less feasible than moving the third world here.
A few hundred people are responsible for a few hundred rapes. Treat them according to the law. Why should this affect hundreds of thousands?Quote:
Something should be done there.
For the *reported* rapes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV
Because people here use it as if sweden would be worse than 3rd world countries, while it actually doesn't have much more than average rapes? Because interpretation here show the lack of interpretation ability regarding statistics? Just as a note, in nearly all rapes alcohol took part, so maybe we also should look at alcohol and alcoholism as a problem. Because misinterpretation of criminal data is a huge problem in societies image of the criminality?Quote:
However, why are you so set on the rape statistics, and not the other questions at hand?
EDIT: What is that other question at hand, that you mean?
For assault rapes I can believe it, but still want solid information. Anyway...Quote:
However, assault gang rapes are a big enough thing in this small country for it to get to the news, and yeah, all the victims I have heard of are blonde ethnic girls.
Yes of course reported rapes. We can't discuss unreported things, now can we? Or should we all just guess a number?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kival
"people here" would probably be Fragony, so that doesn't count. Don't drag ME into his little fantasy realm.
About alcohol, huge factor in rapes, minimal factor in assault rapes (many Muslims don't drink). Other drugs though...
Last bit, sorry, no solid info to be given. As I said, censored. But I doubt anyone who had been around Sweden over the years would argue against it.
There are survey asking people which has happened to them in the last year or so. There we have numbers for non-reported crimes, too. This surveys are seen as much more reliable in social resarch than the police statistics.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV
Haven't heard about it over here :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Kival
http://bra.se/bra/bra-in-english/hom...me-survey.html
This is of course not a international comparison itself and still can not be used for direct comparisons.
This is also how corruption is measured by the way, and also how the 8000-16000 estimate range for number of actual annual rapes in Norway was made.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kival
The method is of course not without problems, but it's the best way we have to measure things we don't have(or can't have) hard statistics on.
Sadly, except when it comes to corruption, it's mostly ignored outside academia.
8000 to 16000, that can't be right. 80 to 160 would already be outragiously much.
Then may I suggest you look into the facts before you start concluding?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
80 is, btw, the number of rapists convicted annually.
The estimate range is both due to inherent uncertainty as well as definition of "rape". Some includes sexual abuse of minors, others only deal with adults(sexual abuse of minors is a violation of a different law than the rape paragraph). There's also the question of what to include - do you include only the cases with penetration, or do you include other actions, like fondling and forced naked pictures, for example?
You didn't give me any facts to look at
Don't you have plenty of channels to give you "the real truth hidden by the MSM"?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Sure I do but they always back it up and usually turn out to be right.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
When they've given you the impression that the number of rapes in Norway is around 80-160, isn't that a sure sign of just how whacky and brainless they are...?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Sir you suck, I just removed a few zero's for argument's sake. I don't know how many rapes (or just harassment) occur in Norway but I bet it aren't 8000 and especially not 16000.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
He's right because he's not speaking about reported rapes or solved cases but estimates of actual rapes happening (including "dark figure").Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Can't be annual, I don't know where this is comming from but it's hilariously impossibleQuote:
Originally Posted by Kival
I was away for the weekend, so I missed this little gem:Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Fragony, I have already used several pages in another thread trying to bash the meaning of this video into your skull. Then a few months later, you once again show it, with the exact same and utterly wrong take on it. I'll try one last time:
Immigrants are not responsible for 100% of all assault rapes in Norway. Not in any calendar year has that been the case. The people mentioned in the video number a whooping FOUR men.
I have no hopes of these simple facts sinking into the brains of the dutchie, however. I have no doubts the crusade of the brainless will continue as usual. Facts, logic and common sense just bounces off the skin of the hardened islamophobe.
The new right-wingers are, after all, the ones who stand for truth and justice. And when reality doesn't match their ideology, well, lying is a perfectly viable option it would seem.
Nope, you just can't just decide these things it really has to be true