House votes to continue NSA spying on citizens

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Originally Posted by rvg

That's because it was just him. Add a million more and the system becomes useless.

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But for that to work, everyone would need to be confident that everyone else is doing it. Otherwise, many would be less willing to stick their neck out for fear that others wouldn't and only the brave idiots get in trouble. Not quite prisoners dilemma but stag hunt where free riding doesn't really offer much of an advantage but confidence is still needed for everyone to get on board.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stag_hunt

Since you seem to be talking about me, your memory is quite screwed up if you think I took the government side on these issues, ever. I said the patriot act was a mistake when they did it, as was homeland security. Look at the other stuff coming out about DEA and FBI phone surveillance.

Yes we need to get rid of the people in there and their parties to go with them! The only difference between the two is the brand of lies they tell.

Come back when you are sober.

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Originally Posted by Noncommunist

But for that to work, everyone would need to be confident that everyone else is doing it. Otherwise, many would be less willing to stick their neck out for fear that others wouldn't and only the brave idiots get in trouble. Not quite prisoners dilemma but stag hunt where free riding doesn't really offer much of an advantage but confidence is still needed for everyone to get on board.

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Not necessary. There are plenty of ways to word the inquiries so that they would both flag the system and yet firmly remain under the 1st amendment's protection.

Uh... Sorry to say so, but wasn't this known in the 90's? The whole Echelon thingy...

It's 2013 now, no one has stopped them, and of course they have refined the technology used.

I think the lack of moral uproar is due to everyone knowing USA is ****** up. It's not new, nor is it news.

*and some people wonder why I paint USA as the devil*

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Originally Posted by rvg

Not necessary. There are plenty of ways to word the inquiries so that they would both flag the system and yet firmly remain under the 1st amendment's protection.

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Unless http://www.aclu.org/technology-and-l...tion-free-zone

http://www.aclu.org/know-your-rights...-free-zone-map

Your in Michigan, right? Guess what…

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Originally Posted by Fisherking

Unless http://www.aclu.org/technology-and-l...tion-free-zone

http://www.aclu.org/know-your-rights...-free-zone-map

Your in Michigan, right? Guess what…

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How does this apply to the 1st amendment? Government stupidity with regards to hunting the illegals is a whole different beast.

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

I'm just waiting for some obese, mouth breathing, tea party ass to pump a postal worker full of lead because he's a government employee. There is nothing worse in this life than people with short memories.

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Yeah, because there's a lot of evidence for the violent tendencies of tea partiers. If only they could be more like those nice OWS guys....

By the way, how are things in fantasy land? :dizzy2:

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You know what's important? Voting, excersising your rights as a citizen.

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You think it would have been any different under President Romney?

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Originally Posted by Xiahou

You think it would have been any different under President Romney?

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Mitt Romney oder ohne? :laugh4:

Different, maybe but that doesn't necessarily mean better...

The state can do whatever surveillance stuff they want, as long as they get the rent-seeking monkey(s) off their back.

Just think of all your electronic communication as postcards from now on. Able to be viewed by any agency government or company who carry it between transmission and receiver.

=][=

I don't know how they flag meta data. It might be key words it might be deeper ie can parse sentences.

But if I was going to trip wires I'd use day glo paint and no threats.

Subject: Tin Hats, Terrorism, Al Qaeda and Government Surveillance
Contents:

I don't like:
Terrorists
Al Qaeda
Lack of privacy
People cutting in line
Wars against nominative statements
Bin Laden, Bin Full or Bin Juice and rubbish night is a couple of days away

I like:
Turkish Kebabs
Lebanese charcoal chicken
Egyptian Pyramids
The Afghan - Aussie Train
Pakistan cricket team
Tunisian Twitter

http://youtu.be/h2oRzqdO58E

A few half decent worms firing off of a midsized botnet emailing the right keywords to every contact on an infected machine, and the whole surveillance system will be in deep trouble.

Except NSA probably has first access to day one exploits and MS will patch it.

Also with standard server storage deduplication that same file will just be stored once and indexed against many. Not much storage required.

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

The correct way to change this is to organize, and elect representatives whom will change the law and afford the same protections to phone and e-traffic that the post gets (which was a big battle in its day)

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Oh, that would be a good point if the post weren't actually monitored as well:

Source you won't like: http://rt.com/usa/us-nsa-mail-spying-706/
Source with partially related content: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/04/us...anted=all&_r=0
Source on subject: http://news.msn.com/rumors/rumor-usp...efore-delivery
Another source on subject: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_3694589.html

Now they're not reading the contents yet, but they do provide all the information about origin and destination that law enforcement asks for it seems.

Secure Email servers such as Lavabit (one of many) are being taken offline by the United States government.

The Lavabit website says this:

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My Fellow Users,

I have been forced to make a difficult decision: to become complicit in crimes against the American people or walk away from nearly ten years of hard work by shutting down Lavabit. After significant soul searching, I have decided to suspend operations. I wish that I could legally share with you the events that led to my decision. I cannot. I feel you deserve to know what’s going on--the first amendment is supposed to guarantee me the freedom to speak out in situations like this. Unfortunately, Congress has passed laws that say otherwise. As things currently stand, I cannot share my experiences over the last six weeks, even though I have twice made the appropriate requests.

What’s going to happen now? We’ve already started preparing the paperwork needed to continue to fight for the Constitution in the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals. A favorable decision would allow me resurrect Lavabit as an American company.

This experience has taught me one very important lesson: without congressional action or a strong judicial precedent, I would _strongly_ recommend against anyone trusting their private data to a company with physical ties to the United States.

Sincerely,
Ladar Levison
Owner and Operator, Lavabit LLC

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Stop using the internet.
Pay in cash.
Encrypt your computer.

I went to Kohl's to buy some shorts and they asked if I wanted to sign up for a Kohl's card. I said sure, why not. When I got my Ralph's card, they didn't even have me turn in the paperwork, cashier just gave me a card and as far as I know, neither my name nor phone number is even associated with it.

But Kohl's? They wanted my SSN in order to get the card. Hell no. I told the lady I forgot my number and to forget about it. She then looked at me like I was an idiot and asked how I did not know my SSN. I said, idk I rarely need it, just let me buy my shorts and leave lady. I would rather have people think I am an idiot than paranoid. It's probably safer that way in the first place.

I thought paranoid was the easy one to pull off... But if you want to pull off a lie go with your strengths. :smoking:

They weren't shorts, they were hot pants ... At least that is what the NSA brief of briefs said. :creep:

Oooh. I am such an idiot. The Kohl's card might have been like a credit card. When they say "Do you want to get our card and save 15%?" How am I supposed to know its more than just a data gathering discount card?

A Kohl's card is a credit card. I work at JC Penney and we have to try to get people to sign up for store credit cards as well.

I always get nervous when I ask someone if they would like to open a JC Penney card and they say "yes" without even blinking, especially when they don't speak English well. I worry that they don't realize they're signing up for a credit card.

I hate pushing those things so bad.

Making You 'Comfortable' with Spying Is Obama's Big NSA Fix
Posted By Shane Harris Friday, August 9, 2013 - 5:26 PM

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Barack Obama held a press conference on Friday afternoon, supposedly to announce reforms of the NSA's far-flung surveillance programs. In reality, the White House briefing was the start of a marketing campaign for the spy programs that have turned so controversial in recent months. And the president's message really boiled down to this: It's more important to persuade people surveillance is useful and legal than to make structural changes to the programs.
"The question is, how do I make the American people more comfortable?" Obama said.
Not that Obama's unwilling to make any changes to America's surveillance driftnets -- and he detailed a few of them -- but his overriding concern was that people didn't believe him when he said there was nothing to fear.
In an awkward analogy, the president said that if he'd told his wife Michelle that he had washed the dishes after dinner, she might not believe him. So he might have to take her into the kitchen and show her the evidence.
The tour of the NSA's kitchen appeared today in the form of two "white papers," one produced by the Justice Department, another by the NSA, that offered a robust defense of the legal basis for the programs, and their value, but offered practically no new details to the administration's already public defense. If the president meant to offer more proof that the programs really are fine, it was not to be found in the information his administration released today.
What structural alterations the president said he is willing to make to the surveillance regime mostly took the form of initial sketches and broad commitments to balance "security and liberty." In perhaps his biggest concession, Obama said he was willing to consider changing procedures in the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, which authorizes NSA surveillance, so that an opposing position to the government's could be heard in certain circumstances. Without committing to any specifics, he also said he'd work with Congress to "pursue appropriate reforms" to the bulk phone records program. And Obama announced he'd convene an independent review board on the state of national security technology and its role in modern society. (It might take the form of this one, which was convened a decade ago.)

But these changes, while not merely cosmetic, have already been proposed by members of Congress and outside experts. The president offered no proposals to fundamentally change the surveillance programs, because as far as he's concerned, they don't need to be changed.
Now if he could just make everyone see that.
Friday was a start. In his most extensive remarks to date about the controversy over surveillance programs that has dogged his administration, President Obama sought to assuage his critics, and the public at large, that there is nothing to fear from the National Security Agency. And he should know, because he's the president.

"If you start seeing a bunch of headlines saying 'U.S, Big Brother looking down on you,'" Obama said at an afternoon White House press conference, "understandably people would be concerned. I would be too if I wasn't inside the government."
The crux of the president's message rested on his fundamental and considered belief that the NSA's global surveillance programs, including those that collect the phone records of millions of Americans, are both legal and tightly regulated. The president, who as a candidate railed against the intelligence excesses of the NSA under George W. Bush, said today that he'd been skeptical of those programs, and that once in office, having had the chance to review them, found that they were essential.
"The two programs at issue offer valuable intelligence that helps us protect the American people and they're worth preserving," Obama said, referring to the bulk collection of phone records and electronic surveillance of foreigners overseas, which frequently sweeps in the communications of American citizens.
Obama resisted any suggestion that the leaks by former NSA-contractor Ed Snowden had caused him to rethink his position. Indeed, he said he'd initiated a review of intelligence programs before Snowden began providing details about them to the press two months ago. As a result, Obama said he decided to "tighten some bolts" by adding additional layers of oversight of secretive intelligence gathering.
And it was those steps, he said, as well as the constitutional system of checks and balances that has kept the NSA from violating Americans' privacy, overstepping legal bounds, or reverting to the kinds of domestic spying that were a hallmark of darker days, when the intelligence community routinely spied on some Americans to monitor their political activities. The programs are useful, legal, and working just fine, he insisted.
But, Obama allowed, not everyone in the country is so confident.

"It's not enough for me as the President to have confidence in these programs. The American people have to have confidence in them as well."

Just a couple thousand errors: human fallibility and all that

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/americ...553987562.html

Quadrupled the oversight budget, doubled the number of violations and "mistakes". I'd bring up Hanlon's razor, but I'm starting to think both malice and stupidity are in full effect.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjbPi00k_ME

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Originally Posted by drone

Quadrupled the oversight budget, doubled the number of violations and "mistakes". I'd bring up Hanlon's razor, but I'm starting to think both malice and stupidity are in full effect.

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I would argue that the razor has it backwards.

It is more like when an organization does something malicious and gets caught, cover it as a stupid error by an underling.

A nice little addition to the brouhaha: Who watches the watchers? Apparently the 3 blind mice.

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Originally Posted by WaPo

The leader of the secret court that is supposed to provide critical oversight of the government’s vast spying programs said that its ability to do so is limited and that it must trust the government to report when it improperly spies on Americans.

The chief judge of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court said the court lacks the tools to independently verify how often the government’s surveillance breaks the court’s rules that aim to protect Americans’ privacy. Without taking drastic steps, it also cannot check the veracity of the government’s assertions that the violations its staff members report are unintentional mistakes.

“The FISC is forced to rely upon the accuracy of the information that is provided to the Court,” its chief, U.S. District Judge Reggie B. Walton, said in a written statement to The Washington Post. “The FISC does not have the capacity to investigate issues of noncompliance, and in that respect the FISC is in the same position as any other court when it comes to enforcing [government] compliance with its orders.”

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Gives a whole new meaning to the term organized crime.

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Originally Posted by HopAlongBunny

Gives a whole new meaning to the term organized crime.

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Not even in the same league. When the mob tell you something, you can believe them.

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Originally Posted by Fisherking

Not even in the same league. When the mob tell you something, you can believe them.

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Unless they're lying.

Ok, so everyone lies. Some occasionally tell a lie but lately the Government never seems to have a compelling enough reason to tell the truth, on anything.


Anyway, a link for those who need all the reasons pointed out why this is not a good idea:

http://piratetimes.net/what-is-a-sur...-good-for-you/

And this too: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/18/ma...ewanted=1&_r=0

Pretenders pull crimes and never get caught
Pro's have the state give them money w/o oversight...
And bury the event in "secrecy" SsssHhhhh!

Reading that NY Times article I came to the conclusion that Snowden isn't paranoid, he just knows they are watching.

I understood that your location can and is tracked... Remember the iPhone debacle which shows it tracks the user... Wonder where all that information ended up.

What surprised me is that like laptops the phones mike can be tapped... Probably also the cameras too.

Even the computer in your car engine can be hacked. Also, smart appliances.

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Originally Posted by Fisherking

Even the computer in your car engine can be hacked. Also, smart appliances.

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that's a little exaggerated.

While cars can be hacked they don't usually have remote connections so you would have to plug into them directly which limits the scope of any possible hacks - of course if you have remote assistance or wireless of some kind as an extra then this is a different ball game...

Smart applications however are one of the easiest ways for Hackers to gain entry to a network and can be MASSIVE security holes...

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

Screw the NSA, I'm worried about when the global network of robot doom wakes up.

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What better way to accidentally create a singularity then creating a nerve center with massive computational power that can track what all the cells are upto.

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Originally Posted by Sir Moody

that's a little exaggerated.

While cars can be hacked they don't usually have remote connections so you would have to plug into them directly which limits the scope of any possible hacks - of course if you have remote assistance or wireless of some kind as an extra then this is a different ball game...

Smart applications however are one of the easiest ways for Hackers to gain entry to a network and can be MASSIVE security holes...

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Orion VIS, OnStar, In-Drive autos, and any car with a remote navigation system may be subject to remote hacking. That is a lot of cars. Particularly US models.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OnStar

https://www.onstar.com/web/portal/securityexplore?g=1

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Originally Posted by Sir Moody

that's a little exaggerated.

While cars can be hacked they don't usually have remote connections so you would have to plug into them directly which limits the scope of any possible hacks - of course if you have remote assistance or wireless of some kind as an extra then this is a different ball game...

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Quite a lot of them are equipped with Bluetooth, and wouldn't you know it: there've been a few example attacks which result in a complete take-over of the car, including disabling input (from the steering wheel and pedals) and spoofing sensor data to the instruments effectively turning the car into a RF-controlled toy using Bluetooth as an attack vector. (Compromising the Bluetooth enabled system to gain access to the CAN bus...) Also, similar good times are to be had with pacemakers (quite a few of which are also equipped with RF comms and can be remotely tampered with as a result...).

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Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios

Quite a lot of them are equipped with Bluetooth, and wouldn't you know it: there've been a few example attacks which result in a complete take-over of the car, including disabling input (from the steering wheel and pedals) and spoofing sensor data to the instruments effectively turning the car into a RF-controlled toy using Bluetooth as an attack vector. (Compromising the Bluetooth enabled system to gain access to the CAN bus...) Also, similar good times are to be had with pacemakers (quite a few of which are also equipped with RF comms and can be remotely tampered with as a result...).

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I have seen these - slight problem however - Bluetooth is short range which again limits the vector for attacks (you would need to be very close to the car) and if done correctly (sadly this isn't always the case) would require input from inside the car via pairing etc

The problem will be with the coming rise of internet enabled cars which are just starting to hit the market... they are potentially very dangerous since they can be like roaming hot spots... however again this can be mitigated by not connecting the main Cars computer with the new functionality (ie installing a second computer with no hard connections)

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Originally Posted by Sir Moody

I have seen these - slight problem however - Bluetooth is short range which again limits the vector for attacks (you would need to be very close to the car) and if done correctly (sadly this isn't always the case) would require input from inside the car via pairing etc

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A bluetooth device paired with a longer ranged transmitter, magnetically attached to the undercarraige, would do the trick.

Groklaw just shut down. Lots of speculation on whether this is the result of an NSL/gag order, just like Lavabit.

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Originally Posted by drone

A bluetooth device paired with a longer ranged transmitter, magnetically attached to the undercarraige, would do the trick.

Groklaw just shut down. Lots of speculation on whether this is the result of an NSL/gag order, just like Lavabit.

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yes but it would need to be paired - which as I said isn't easy since it requires access to the car first - you couldn't just slip one on a car and then hack it... assuming the manufacturer has the paring system correct and requires a user generated key + input (I know my BMW does but i cant attest for the other manufacturers)

If there is an electronic device, assume the government has a key or back door to it.


http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...administrators
No more Snowdens, no more whistleblowers is the goal.


These, you may not have seen:
http://www.albanytribune.com/1308201...-review-group/

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...9780UY20130809


And a portion of an opinion piece on moral relativism, dealing with this topic.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The Current Sales Pitch

Just take a look at the attitude of the Obama Administration and the mainstream media towards Edward Snowden and his recent asylum approved by Russia.

The White House, rather than admitting wrongdoing in its support for the NSA’s mass surveillance of American citizens without warrant, or even attempting to deny the existence of the PRISM program, is now instead trying to promote NSA spying as essential to our well being while wagging a finger of shame at Snowden and the Russian government for damaging their domestic spy network. Obama has lamented on Russia’s stance, stating that their thinking is “backwards.”#

Did I miss something here? I’m no fan of the Russian oligarchy, but shouldn’t Obama and most of the NSA (let alone every other Federal alphabet agency) be sitting in a dark hole somewhere awaiting trial for violating the Constitution on almost every level? Yet, we are instead supposed to despise Snowden for exposing the crime they committed and distrust any country that happens to give him shelter?

Due to public outcry, Obama has attempted to pacify critics by announcing plans to make NSA mass surveillance “more transparent”. First, I would like to point out that he did NOT offer to end NSA spying on Americans without warrant, which is what a President with any ounce of integrity would have done. Second, Obama’s calls for more transparency have come at the exact same time as the NSA announces its plans to remove 90 percent of its systems administrators to make sure another “Snowden incident” does not occur.

Finally, when the public called for an investigation into the NSA and the Director of National Intelligence in the handling of the Snowden affair and the PRISM program, the White House appointed none other than James Clapper, the Director of National Intelligence, as part of the team that would "investigate" any wrongdoing.# The Obama Administration insists that Clapper, a documented liar who told Congress that the NSA was not involved in mass domestic spying, was not going to "head" the panel of investigators, even though a White House memo specifically named Clapper as the man who would form the so-called "independent group".# The White House still admits that Clapper will be involved in the process.
So, just to reiterate, the people who perpetrated the criminal act of warrant-less surveillance on hundreds of millions of Americans, and who were caught red-handed lying about it, are now appointed to investigate their own crime.

Does this sound like a government that plans on becoming “more transparent”?

Ask yourself, would Obama have called for ANY transparency over the NSA whatsoever if Snowden had never come forward? Of course not! The exposure of the crime has led to lies and empty placation, nothing more.

In the meantime, numerous other political miscreants have hit the media trail, campaigning for the NSA as well as other surveillance methods, bellowing to the rafters over the absolute necessity of domestic spy programs. Fifteen years ago, the government would have tried to sweep all of this under the rug. Today, they want to acclimate us to the inevitability of the crime, stating that we had better get used to it.

Their position? That Snowden’s whistleblowing put America at risk. My questions is, how? How did Snowden’s exposure of an unConstitutional and at bottom illegal surveillance program used against hundreds of millions of innocent Americans do our country harm? Is it the position of the White House that the truth is dangerous, and deceit is safety?

I suspect this is the case considering the recent treatment of military whistleblower Bradley Manning, who has been accused by some to have “aided Al Qaeda’s recruiting efforts” through his actions.# How did Manning do this? By releasing information, including battlefield videos, that were hidden from the public containing proof of U.S. war crimes in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Perhaps I’m just a traditionalist and not hip to modern diplomatic strategy, but I would think that if you don’t want to be blamed for war crimes, then you probably shouldn’t commit war crimes. And, if you don’t want the enemy to gain new recruits, you should probably avoid killing innocent civilians and pissing off their families (there is also ample evidence suggesting that the CIA has done FAR more deliberate recruiting for Al Qaeda than Bradley Manning could have ever accomplished on accident). Just a thought.
So, to keep track - U.S. government funds and trains Al Qaeda, but is the good guy. U.S. government commits war crimes, but is the good guy. U.S. government hides the truth from the American people, but is the good guy. Bradley Manning exposes war crimes, and is the bad guy. Moral relativism at its finest. Moving on...

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Originally Posted by Sir Moody

yes but it would need to be paired - which as I said isn't easy since it requires access to the car first - you couldn't just slip one on a car and then hack it... assuming the manufacturer has the paring system correct and requires a user generated key + input (I know my BMW does but i cant attest for the other manufacturers)

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Is there a manufacturers key so they can troubleshoot it?

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Originally Posted by Papewaio

Is there a manufacturers key so they can troubleshoot it?

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of course (and you can buy them off Ebay)- these do require direct access however to the onboard computer - ie you have to be inside the car...

but this of course brings us to ... why - what do you think you will get by hacking a car which you couldn't get off a smartphone which is likely do go where ever the driver goes anyway?

The only people hacking cars are Researchers with too much time and an axe to grind about how insecure everything is...

now back onto the matter at hand...


Another thing we should all consider for a sec is the shear VOLUME of information the NSA is trying to track

in an average minute on-line you will have 640TB of data transferred, 100k tweets added and 204 million e-mails sent - and at current rates this will have DOUBLED by 2015

I don't care how good they claim their database searching is there is no way they can realistically track anything - they are quite literally burying themselves under a mountain of useless information - its the equivalent of trying to find a needle on Mount Everest during a blizzard

I am utterly unworried by their or anyone else's ability to track online information - personally I am more worried about the flagrant abuses of the laws handed to them which allow them to legally gather this all.

The best example is going on right now with the British Police detaining the partner of the News Reporter who writes on the Snowden case for the Guardian - the facts are out and it seem we have given our Police the ability to detain ANYBODY at an airport for 9 hours, finger printing them, seizing their DNA, taking any luggage they see fit (for 7 days apparently) and the only justification they need is "they might be carrying anything which could help terrorism"...

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I don't care how good they claim their database searching is there is no way they can realistically track anything - they are quite literally burying themselves under a mountain of useless information - its the equivalent of trying to find a needle on Mount Everest during a blizzard

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I don't know, going by this they could very well be "touching" pretty much all the data of consequence on the entire Internet.

The EFF sued for a 2011 FISA court opinion, and won. The phrase "criminal" was used. Shame nothing will come of it.

In case you haven't heard of them, donate to the EFF. They are the ACLU of the internet.

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Originally Posted by Sir Moody

Another thing we should all consider for a sec is the shear VOLUME of information the NSA is trying to track

in an average minute on-line you will have 640TB of data transferred, 100k tweets added and 204 million e-mails sent - and at current rates this will have DOUBLED by 2015

I don't care how good they claim their database searching is there is no way they can realistically track anything - they are quite literally burying themselves under a mountain of useless information - its the equivalent of trying to find a needle on Mount Everest during a blizzard

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You think that's impossible? Tell that to Google.

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Originally Posted by Xiahou

You think that's impossible? Tell that to Google.

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Google is only dealing with pages + social media - no emails, no instant messaging and no data transfers

And it doesn't even try to look at the "dark" net.

Add to this Google isn't "Live" - if you put a page up now it takes several days to appear in Google (actually better now than it used to be because the Google spider crawls sites more often now)

The shear volume of data acquired in a minute would take even the fastest machines a few hours to index and sort - this created a massive "lag" in the data being acquired and when it can be consumed.

It is the legal framework and oversight we should be railing against here not the actual data acquisition.

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Originally Posted by Sir Moody

Google is only dealing with pages + social media - no emails, no instant messaging and no data transfers

And it doesn't even try to look at the "dark" net.

Add to this Google isn't "Live" - if you put a page up now it takes several days to appear in Google (actually better now than it used to be because the Google spider crawls sites more often now)

The shear volume of data acquired in a minute would take even the fastest machines a few hours to index and sort - this created a massive "lag" in the data being acquired and when it can be consumed.

It is the legal framework and oversight we should be railing against here not the actual data acquisition.

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What? What is Google Mail, or Gmail? Google Glass: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Glass

Google Earth, pay services give you real time pictures too.

Some of the developments are pretty depressing. Some recent Apple patens for example. Sensing vibrations of their device to detect your mode of travel, switching on microphone and camera to determine your surroundings. Also remote access for key holders, not owners of devices, to turn off or on cell phones and their various components, you know, cameras and microphones, or access your data remotely. They said it was for venues like movies but said it had law enforcement applications too.

You know, like not being able to photograph or film cops, or for government, turn off all phones in a geographic area.

University of Washington has figured out how to read gps locations for phones without batteries in them just by using background RF and electromagnetic energies.

Remotely accessing home WIFI or Smart Meters, for that matter can allow someone to determine where in a home you are and how many people are there and to an extent what they are doing.

I don’t know what others think but having electronic devices with abilities I don’t want them to have, even though we have to pay for them, without being able to disable these functions is just wrong. There is no opt out for any of them, from home computers to RFID chips.

Which reminds me of a Google-Motorola Division paten for RFID vitamins. Your stomach acid works as a battery with them.

Also this from the court: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...-surveillance/

Gee whiz guys
Mistakes happen:

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/americ...357335966.html

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...97K14Y20130822

Canada has a similar problem with oversight:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/stor...canadians.html
Actually, I would go so far as to speculate all members of the "Five Eyes" engage in overreach and shoddy oversight. Seems to be the nature of the beast.

I guess this could also go under the topic about the government forcing you to provide services....

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Last month, Levison reportedly received an order -- probably a National Security Letter -- to allow the NSA to eavesdrop on everyone's e-mail accounts on Lavabit. Rather than "become complicit in crimes against the American people," he turned the service off. Note that we don't know for sure that he received a NSL -- that's the order authorized by the Patriot Act that doesn't require a judge's signature and prohibits the recipient from talking about it -- or what it covered, but Levison has said that he had complied with requests for individual e-mail access in the past, but this was very different.

So far, we just have an extreme moral act in the face of government pressure. It's what happened next that is the most chilling. The government threatened him with arrest, arguing that shutting down this e-mail service was a violation of the order.

There it is. If you run a business, and the FBI or NSA want to turn it into a mass surveillance tool, they believe they can do so, solely on their own initiative. They can force you to modify your system. They can do it all in secret and then force your business to keep that secret. Once they do that, you no longer control that part of your business. You can't shut it down. You can't terminate part of your service. In a very real sense, it is not your business anymore. It is an arm of the vast U.S. surveillance apparatus, and if your interest conflicts with theirs then they win. Your business has been commandeered.

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Yes, I saw the article but looked for other sources and couldn’t find much at the time.

It is shameful, abusive, and someone would have to explain in great depth how they think it is remotely constitutional.

But it would seem that all of out government agencies, from federal to local are taking an equally heavy hand in dealing with people who do not wish to comply or surrender their rights.

http://elkodaily.com/news/state-and-...9bb2963f4.html

This may already be in the Police Abuse thread but to me it all ties together. Government vs. Citizens.

NYT via Snowden confirms what we already suspected.... N.S.A. Foils Much Internet Encryption

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The N.S.A. hacked into target computers to snare messages before they were encrypted. In some cases, companies say they were coerced by the government into handing over their master encryption keys or building in a back door. And the agency used its influence as the world’s most experienced code maker to covertly introduce weaknesses into the encryption standards followed by hardware and software developers around the world.

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Some of the agency’s most intensive efforts have focused on the encryption in universal use in the United States, including Secure Sockets Layer, or SSL; virtual private networks, or VPNs; and the protection used on fourth-generation, or 4G, smartphones. Many Americans, often without realizing it, rely on such protection every time they send an e-mail, buy something online, consult with colleagues via their company’s computer network, or use a phone or a tablet on a 4G network.

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Simultaneously, the N.S.A. has been deliberately weakening the international encryption standards adopted by developers. One goal in the agency’s 2013 budget request was to “influence policies, standards and specifications for commercial public key technologies,” the most common encryption method.

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The very organizations that the NSA set up to help companies design robust encryption have actually been used to do the opposite- introduce weakness. It's doubly upsetting to know not only can the NSA decrypt pretty much everything, but they do so by introducing security flaws that others could also exploit. :no:

So how many billions/trillions of dollars is this going to potentially wipe out of the US IT economy long term?

I imagine a large horde of geeks are currently going through the Linux source code at the moment.

More on that latest leak, Much, much bigger than anyone thought.

http://www.livescience.com/39477-mos...-nsa-leak.html

Yeah, and what's also funny, Ghostery (a browser add-in) shows me 38 tracking sites and cookies when I open your link. ~;)

Also cute girls and their aunts make a lot of money by working part-time on the internet.

As for the NSA, they have to save us from evil people I guess, sometimes a man gotta do what a man gotta do.

The danger in the encryption debacle is largely to businesses and corporations. The have been known to steal from one and give to another, usually steal from the small or foreign and give to some favored firm. German high-tech and French defense industries seem to be favorite targets. But they have robed a few US companies too to give to their preferred corporations.

Nothing at all to worry about, unless you work for a firm that needs to be internationally competitive or where foreign sales at home could ruin your edge.

I suppose everything will be safe again once someone reinvents the pc with all different components and develops an operating system with encryption for it, provided they are not compromised along the way.

It just gets deeper:

White House had NSA Limits Reversed

Sep 10, 2013
UPI

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2013/...9311378710000/


Good thing Syria came along to take most of this out of the news, huh?

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

Who is playing the role of Praetorian guard?

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The voters. And just like early Romans they can be distracted by bread and circuses, and just like Praetorians they will be bought off in the modern sense with tax cuts, pork barrel projects or more important dilemmas to engage with.

My prediction is that a standard issue Republican & Democrat mix Congress and President will get elected in the next twelve years and by then an entire generation will be born to this. The terms of terrorism will extend, the thresholds lowered, Warrantless data collection will extend to cover the war on drugs, violent crimes and then to civil court cases.

I see the latest iPhone takes your fingerprint. Apparently only stored locally on your phone, I wonder how true that statement is given the geolocation bug was used by agencies to track individuals. So now you are tagged and verified every step of the day. Really like Apple products. Next purchase is probably going to be non US. Made in the US means backdoor to all TLAs and as a foreigner all my most intimate communications are allowed to be viewed because I'm automatically a suspect. Don't worry, it seems the locals will be treated the same soon.

Might as well send postcards from the edge as at least you know anyone can read these.

Praetorians were bought off. They were the red handed chess pieces not the masters.

So I would say the special interest groups. So follow the cash and it wouldn't surprise me it is a Venn diagram of military industrial with a mix of information tech including telcos. Who site in the nexus of all these interests? NSA so they are a key asset to anyone who wants the power of knowledge.

We are essentially screwed because at the moment the powers that be are in a relatively benevolent phase. However martial law has creeped up with the broader definitions of terrorism and the legalized abilities of the various government organizations. All it would take is a real war or a truly terrible terrorist attack and it would be game over.

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Originally Posted by Papewaio

Next purchase is probably going to be non US.

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What kind of computing device has no connection to the US? And even if you find some cellphone that does not have Google, MS or Apple Software on it, how likely is it that your provider will not supply all your communications to the NSA? There doesn't even appear to be a proper encryption unless someone has thought up the whole thing themselves and was not influenced by encryption techniques that were influenced by the NSA.

I saw the TV series "Person of Interest" on TV today and while I used to think it's a funny fictional series, it seems almost like a documentary now. They even had the NSA give a company all kinds of personal information they collected from private citizens. :laugh4:

I can only vote on US policy by spending money.

So yes it will probably be a google android OS on Chinese hardware which my five eyes cooperating Telco will upload willingly to the NSA.

Hopefully Steam will more fully embrace Linux flavours... I could always potentially run games in a virtualized environment on a Linux base.

So right now there isn't alternatives. Nokia is owned by MS. RIM is Canadian so therefore part of the five eyes too.

That leaves Samsung... Which is part of an even more corporate government embedded scenario. HTC which is nice and all.

So yes as far as mobile devices are concerned we are screwed.

From Wired:
How the US Almost Killed the Internet

This article leaves me disgusted. The NSA is acting as the most insidious criminal organization you can imagine- with the important distinction of having full government backing. :no:

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Originally Posted by Xiahou

From Wired:
How the US Almost Killed the Internet

This article leaves me disgusted. The NSA is acting as the most insidious criminal organization you can imagine- with the important distinction of having full government backing. :no:

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How naive, all Intelligence Agencies are doing this all the time and they have to to keep you secure. How can you say this is wrong when they all do it and they all cooperate and share data and none of them spy on their own citizens?

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Originally Posted by Xiahou

From Wired:
How the US Almost Killed the Internet

This article leaves me disgusted. The NSA is acting as the most insidious criminal organization you can imagine- with the important distinction of having full government backing. :no:

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That article? Why not try the Spiegel one which this talk is based on:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vILAlhwUgIU