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    Forum Lurker Member Sir Moody's Avatar
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    Default Re: House votes to continue NSA spying on citizens

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisherking View Post
    Even the computer in your car engine can be hacked. Also, smart appliances.
    that's a little exaggerated.

    While cars can be hacked they don't usually have remote connections so you would have to plug into them directly which limits the scope of any possible hacks - of course if you have remote assistance or wireless of some kind as an extra then this is a different ball game...

    Smart applications however are one of the easiest ways for Hackers to gain entry to a network and can be MASSIVE security holes...

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    Senior Member Senior Member Fisherking's Avatar
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    Default Re: House votes to continue NSA spying on citizens

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Moody View Post
    that's a little exaggerated.

    While cars can be hacked they don't usually have remote connections so you would have to plug into them directly which limits the scope of any possible hacks - of course if you have remote assistance or wireless of some kind as an extra then this is a different ball game...

    Smart applications however are one of the easiest ways for Hackers to gain entry to a network and can be MASSIVE security holes...
    Orion VIS, OnStar, In-Drive autos, and any car with a remote navigation system may be subject to remote hacking. That is a lot of cars. Particularly US models.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OnStar

    https://www.onstar.com/web/portal/securityexplore?g=1


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    Default Re: House votes to continue NSA spying on citizens

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Moody View Post
    that's a little exaggerated.

    While cars can be hacked they don't usually have remote connections so you would have to plug into them directly which limits the scope of any possible hacks - of course if you have remote assistance or wireless of some kind as an extra then this is a different ball game...
    Quite a lot of them are equipped with Bluetooth, and wouldn't you know it: there've been a few example attacks which result in a complete take-over of the car, including disabling input (from the steering wheel and pedals) and spoofing sensor data to the instruments effectively turning the car into a RF-controlled toy using Bluetooth as an attack vector. (Compromising the Bluetooth enabled system to gain access to the CAN bus...) Also, similar good times are to be had with pacemakers (quite a few of which are also equipped with RF comms and can be remotely tampered with as a result...).
    Last edited by Tellos Athenaios; 08-20-2013 at 15:05.
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    Forum Lurker Member Sir Moody's Avatar
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    Default Re: House votes to continue NSA spying on citizens

    Quote Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios View Post
    Quite a lot of them are equipped with Bluetooth, and wouldn't you know it: there've been a few example attacks which result in a complete take-over of the car, including disabling input (from the steering wheel and pedals) and spoofing sensor data to the instruments effectively turning the car into a RF-controlled toy using Bluetooth as an attack vector. (Compromising the Bluetooth enabled system to gain access to the CAN bus...) Also, similar good times are to be had with pacemakers (quite a few of which are also equipped with RF comms and can be remotely tampered with as a result...).
    I have seen these - slight problem however - Bluetooth is short range which again limits the vector for attacks (you would need to be very close to the car) and if done correctly (sadly this isn't always the case) would require input from inside the car via pairing etc

    The problem will be with the coming rise of internet enabled cars which are just starting to hit the market... they are potentially very dangerous since they can be like roaming hot spots... however again this can be mitigated by not connecting the main Cars computer with the new functionality (ie installing a second computer with no hard connections)

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    Needs more flowers Moderator drone's Avatar
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    Default Re: House votes to continue NSA spying on citizens

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Moody View Post
    I have seen these - slight problem however - Bluetooth is short range which again limits the vector for attacks (you would need to be very close to the car) and if done correctly (sadly this isn't always the case) would require input from inside the car via pairing etc
    A bluetooth device paired with a longer ranged transmitter, magnetically attached to the undercarraige, would do the trick.

    Groklaw just shut down. Lots of speculation on whether this is the result of an NSL/gag order, just like Lavabit.
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    Forum Lurker Member Sir Moody's Avatar
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    Default Re: House votes to continue NSA spying on citizens

    Quote Originally Posted by drone View Post
    A bluetooth device paired with a longer ranged transmitter, magnetically attached to the undercarraige, would do the trick.

    Groklaw just shut down. Lots of speculation on whether this is the result of an NSL/gag order, just like Lavabit.
    yes but it would need to be paired - which as I said isn't easy since it requires access to the car first - you couldn't just slip one on a car and then hack it... assuming the manufacturer has the paring system correct and requires a user generated key + input (I know my BMW does but i cant attest for the other manufacturers)

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    Senior Member Senior Member Fisherking's Avatar
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    Default Re: House votes to continue NSA spying on citizens

    If there is an electronic device, assume the government has a key or back door to it.


    http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...administrators
    No more Snowdens, no more whistleblowers is the goal.


    These, you may not have seen:
    http://www.albanytribune.com/1308201...-review-group/

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...9780UY20130809


    And a portion of an opinion piece on moral relativism, dealing with this topic.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    The Current Sales Pitch

    Just take a look at the attitude of the Obama Administration and the mainstream media towards Edward Snowden and his recent asylum approved by Russia.

    The White House, rather than admitting wrongdoing in its support for the NSA’s mass surveillance of American citizens without warrant, or even attempting to deny the existence of the PRISM program, is now instead trying to promote NSA spying as essential to our well being while wagging a finger of shame at Snowden and the Russian government for damaging their domestic spy network. Obama has lamented on Russia’s stance, stating that their thinking is “backwards.”#

    Did I miss something here? I’m no fan of the Russian oligarchy, but shouldn’t Obama and most of the NSA (let alone every other Federal alphabet agency) be sitting in a dark hole somewhere awaiting trial for violating the Constitution on almost every level? Yet, we are instead supposed to despise Snowden for exposing the crime they committed and distrust any country that happens to give him shelter?

    Due to public outcry, Obama has attempted to pacify critics by announcing plans to make NSA mass surveillance “more transparent”. First, I would like to point out that he did NOT offer to end NSA spying on Americans without warrant, which is what a President with any ounce of integrity would have done. Second, Obama’s calls for more transparency have come at the exact same time as the NSA announces its plans to remove 90 percent of its systems administrators to make sure another “Snowden incident” does not occur.

    Finally, when the public called for an investigation into the NSA and the Director of National Intelligence in the handling of the Snowden affair and the PRISM program, the White House appointed none other than James Clapper, the Director of National Intelligence, as part of the team that would "investigate" any wrongdoing.# The Obama Administration insists that Clapper, a documented liar who told Congress that the NSA was not involved in mass domestic spying, was not going to "head" the panel of investigators, even though a White House memo specifically named Clapper as the man who would form the so-called "independent group".# The White House still admits that Clapper will be involved in the process.
    So, just to reiterate, the people who perpetrated the criminal act of warrant-less surveillance on hundreds of millions of Americans, and who were caught red-handed lying about it, are now appointed to investigate their own crime.

    Does this sound like a government that plans on becoming “more transparent”?

    Ask yourself, would Obama have called for ANY transparency over the NSA whatsoever if Snowden had never come forward? Of course not! The exposure of the crime has led to lies and empty placation, nothing more.

    In the meantime, numerous other political miscreants have hit the media trail, campaigning for the NSA as well as other surveillance methods, bellowing to the rafters over the absolute necessity of domestic spy programs. Fifteen years ago, the government would have tried to sweep all of this under the rug. Today, they want to acclimate us to the inevitability of the crime, stating that we had better get used to it.

    Their position? That Snowden’s whistleblowing put America at risk. My questions is, how? How did Snowden’s exposure of an unConstitutional and at bottom illegal surveillance program used against hundreds of millions of innocent Americans do our country harm? Is it the position of the White House that the truth is dangerous, and deceit is safety?

    I suspect this is the case considering the recent treatment of military whistleblower Bradley Manning, who has been accused by some to have “aided Al Qaeda’s recruiting efforts” through his actions.# How did Manning do this? By releasing information, including battlefield videos, that were hidden from the public containing proof of U.S. war crimes in Iraq and Afghanistan.
    Perhaps I’m just a traditionalist and not hip to modern diplomatic strategy, but I would think that if you don’t want to be blamed for war crimes, then you probably shouldn’t commit war crimes. And, if you don’t want the enemy to gain new recruits, you should probably avoid killing innocent civilians and pissing off their families (there is also ample evidence suggesting that the CIA has done FAR more deliberate recruiting for Al Qaeda than Bradley Manning could have ever accomplished on accident). Just a thought.
    So, to keep track - U.S. government funds and trains Al Qaeda, but is the good guy. U.S. government commits war crimes, but is the good guy. U.S. government hides the truth from the American people, but is the good guy. Bradley Manning exposes war crimes, and is the bad guy. Moral relativism at its finest. Moving on...



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    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: House votes to continue NSA spying on citizens

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Moody View Post
    yes but it would need to be paired - which as I said isn't easy since it requires access to the car first - you couldn't just slip one on a car and then hack it... assuming the manufacturer has the paring system correct and requires a user generated key + input (I know my BMW does but i cant attest for the other manufacturers)
    Is there a manufacturers key so they can troubleshoot it?
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  9. #9
    Forum Lurker Member Sir Moody's Avatar
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    Default Re: House votes to continue NSA spying on citizens

    Quote Originally Posted by Papewaio View Post
    Is there a manufacturers key so they can troubleshoot it?
    of course (and you can buy them off Ebay)- these do require direct access however to the onboard computer - ie you have to be inside the car...

    but this of course brings us to ... why - what do you think you will get by hacking a car which you couldn't get off a smartphone which is likely do go where ever the driver goes anyway?

    The only people hacking cars are Researchers with too much time and an axe to grind about how insecure everything is...

    now back onto the matter at hand...


    Another thing we should all consider for a sec is the shear VOLUME of information the NSA is trying to track

    in an average minute on-line you will have 640TB of data transferred, 100k tweets added and 204 million e-mails sent - and at current rates this will have DOUBLED by 2015

    I don't care how good they claim their database searching is there is no way they can realistically track anything - they are quite literally burying themselves under a mountain of useless information - its the equivalent of trying to find a needle on Mount Everest during a blizzard

    I am utterly unworried by their or anyone else's ability to track online information - personally I am more worried about the flagrant abuses of the laws handed to them which allow them to legally gather this all.

    The best example is going on right now with the British Police detaining the partner of the News Reporter who writes on the Snowden case for the Guardian - the facts are out and it seem we have given our Police the ability to detain ANYBODY at an airport for 9 hours, finger printing them, seizing their DNA, taking any luggage they see fit (for 7 days apparently) and the only justification they need is "they might be carrying anything which could help terrorism"...

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