Being assaulted and robbed isn't very much fun at all

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Yeah, bringing back shaming, hushed whispers and social exclusion whenever someone doesn't conform to the norm is a brilliant idea.

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No, that would also be taking it too far. We need a balance between shaming and shameless, neither of which is healthy on a societal level.

We need to review those things in the past of our societies that did seem to work, and find a way to keep the valuable bits without keeping the brutalism and insularity.


And PVC, I generally think that you are right. I think that cultural "hybridism" is a lot more attainable than true integration. Integrations is, I believe, a multi-generational process.



Overall, Kadagar is speaking for a lot of people on this issue and not without some reason behind it. How do you address those valid concerns WITHOUT going Neaderthal on the whole issue? Cause yes, nativism sucks, but it is hardly a surprising response given episodes like the one described.

Kad gets assaulted by a gang of Africans and Arabs. Something something football hooligans and Kad has to get a clue and mix it up and love all races and stop being a Nazi.

Yeah, seems all is running as usual in the BR.

Kad, is there any chance to organize a group of fine tough men and exact personal justice? You know how in the USA they say "What would Jesus do?" well... what would Thor do? I know this is bad advice, but I'd do some recon, see how they organize, how much backup they could get, then divide them and surround them in groups of 1 or 2 and beat them into a pulp with a 10 on 1 numerical advantage. Pipes, bats, steel chains and other amenities will be liberally used. To please the liberals.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

My previous answer stands. Spot the Yugoslavian or Swede ruined by immigrant surroundings.

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How do you actually distinguish a Yugoslavian from a Swede, based on a picture?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Myth

Kad gets assaulted by a gang of Africans and Arabs. Something something football hooligans and Kad has to get a clue and mix it up and love all races and stop being a Nazi.

Yeah, seems all is running as usual in the BR.

Kad, is there any chance to organize a group of fine tough men and exact personal justice? You know how in the USA they say "What would Jesus do?" well... what would Thor do? I know this is bad advice, but I'd do some recon, see how they organize, how much backup they could get, then divide them and surround them in groups of 1 or 2 and beat them into a pulp with a 10 on 1 numerical advantage. Pipes, bats, steel chains and other amenities will be liberally used. To please the liberals.

---

I'd love that, and have some friends who would help.

However, I haven't got the faintest idea where to start looking for them. "Entire Stockholm subway and commuter train network" is as you understand a somewhat overwhelming search area, and just because I spot an immigrant gang, it doesnt have to be them.

They strike when there are no witnesses, so even if I was able to identify someone (which I'm not), they wouldnt do anything if others were around.

I guess I'll just do what all Swedes who have been in a similar position does, clench my hand silently and then vote for the most racist party that still have a chance to get in to government.

There is a reason the Swedish Democrats (rather but not fully racist) have gone from nowhere to our third biggest party in just a few years. I think this election they will get 10-15% of the votes.

With some luck, none of the other blocks will get their own majority, making them dependent on SD.

I don't think 10-15% of the population has suddenly turned racist, I think it's situations like this that make people vote that way, or the mom who see her son come home for the third time without his smartphone.

I miss the Sweden I grew up in, where the front door was unlocked and the bike stood outside.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sarmatian

How do you actually distinguish a Yugoslavian from a Swede, based on a picture?

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My point was, you cant.

Zlatan is one of the worlds best football players (if not the best), his success have made every Yugoslavian kid dream of becoming the next him (as Zlatan is Yugo-immigrant).

Basically, every single Yugoslavian in Sweden is hardcore into football, I think our youth national team has about 50/50 Yugos.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Can I get my points. I have been warning for this for years.

---

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

It's a Cassandra thing. If your prognostications are wrong, you get reviled for the inanity of your predictions. If you are later proven correct....you are reviled even more.

Internet justice, ain't it beee-ooo--tiful.

---

Wait, a single incident proves that Fragony was right all along? Is anecdotal evidence the new internet hipster thing?

Is it really that hard to see that white people and non-immigrants can be violent, too?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...azi-group.html

It just doesn't make the news as much apparently as scary immigrants sell more papers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Husar

Wait, a single incident proves that Fragony was right all along? Is anecdotal evidence the new internet hipster thing?

Is it really that hard to see that white people and non-immigrants can be violent, too?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...azi-group.html

It just doesn't make the news as much apparently as scary immigrants sell more papers.

---

I don't think anyone claims white people cant be violent.

I already stated in this thread that every culture and nation has its fair share of idiots. I just wonder why we have to import people from absolutely scum cultures, thus increasing the amount of idiots.

It's about OVER-REPRESENTATION, that's why I have a problem with immigrants.

They still have an OVER-REPRESENTATION when you remove social-economical factors. See the problem?

Another problem is of course that quite some immigrant groups will never serve another purpose in society than being at the very bottom socio-economicly (It's not like many Somalis will be rocket-engineers anytime soon), so basically we are importing raised crime.

More than one in every five young Swedes are unemployed.

But I'm sure that doesn't matter, let's continue discussing culture(race).

....And about "rocket scientists".... While you Swedes are naturally to daft to have a space program, we will have to look at alternate "smart-guy" professions. What does your average med-student look like, Kad?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

My point was, you cant.

Zlatan is one of the worlds best football players (if not the best), his success have made every Yugoslavian kid dream of becoming the next him (as Zlatan is Yugo-immigrant).

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Your point was, if I understood it correctly, is that the reason football fans are more violent than hockey fans in Sweden, since hockey fans are mostly ethnic Swedes while immigrants are more into football. That doesn't really make sense.

Quote:

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Basically, every single Yugoslavian in Sweden is hardcore into football, I think our youth national team has about 50/50 Yugos.

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That's got more to do with the fact that you guys suck at football.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

More than one in every five young Swedes are unemployed.

But I'm sure that doesn't matter, let's continue discussing culture(race).

---

I just said, quite some immigrant groups are still over-represented when you account for socio-economical factors.

I also just said, that many immigrant groups will never reach anything but the lowest of socio-economical class because of their culture and background, so in effect we import crime.

Is that hard to get?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sarmatian

Your point was, if I understood it correctly, is that the reason football fans are more violent than hockey fans in Sweden, since hockey fans are mostly ethnic Swedes while immigrants are more into football. That doesn't really make sense.



That's got more to do with the fact that you guys suck at football.

---

Bronze in WC '94, yey!! But yeah we suck. Not as bad as England, but we suck.

You understood my point correctly, more immigrants are into football, thus we have more problems around football than hockey games.

What doesnt make sense about that? please elaborate.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

You understood my point correctly, more immigrants are into football, thus we have more problems around football than hockey games.

What doesnt make sense about that? please elaborate.

---

The simple fact that the hooligan firms who cause a stir at football matches also attend hockey matches.

Which you would have known, if you weren't ignorant on this issue.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

The simple fact that the hooligan firms who cause a stir at football matches also attend hockey matches.

Which you would have known, if you weren't ignorant on this issue.

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HT, I'm honestly fed up discussing this with you here.

If it was the same hooligans, we would have as much problem in hockey as football, no? We don't.

REGARDLESS, immigrants ARE WAY OVERREPRESENTED WHEN IT COMES TO ASSAULTS AMONG OTHER CRIMES!!! Start talking about that and drop your absolutely ridiculous single example, that has nothing to do with OP, would you so please.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

Bronze in WC '94, yey!! But yeah we suck. Not as bad as England, but we suck.

You understood my point correctly, more immigrants are into football, thus we have more problems around football than hockey games.

What doesnt make sense about that? please elaborate.

---

I don't agree with HT here, I believe there's a difference between football fans and fans of most other sports. In England, most of the people who attend tennis matches are English and most of the people who attend football matches are also English. It's hard to explain different level of violence when ethnicity is the same.

Other sports lack the organized firms in general, and when they do have them, most of the time they're a continuation of a football firm.

So, Yugoslavians and other eastern Europeans, or darkies and Arabs, on the stands have little to do with that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

HT, I'm honestly fed up discussing this with you here.

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This is how much I care about that:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

If it was the same hooligans, we would have as much problem in hockey as football, no? We don't.

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Nope, we do not. There are some occasional flares at hockey matches as well, but by and large they are peaceful.

That doesn't change the fact that it's the exact same persons we're talking about. If you want to know why they sit quietly at hockey matches while going bonkers at football matches, I suggest you ask them. As you have gone to "hundreds of hockey and football matches", you must know at least a couple of Ultras.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

This is how much I care about that:



Nope, we do not. There are some occasional flares at hockey matches as well, but by and large they are peaceful.

That doesn't change the fact that is the exact same persons we're talking about. If you want to know why they sit quietly at hockey matches while going bonkers at football matches, I suggest you ask them. As you have gone to "hundreds of hockey and football matches", you must know at least a couple of Ultras.

---

Kind of pathetic how you skipped the second part of my post, troll.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

Kind of pathetic how you skipped the second part of my post, troll.

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I'll deal with your other nonsense at a later time.

I prefer to deal with one ignorant argument at a time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HoreTore

I'll deal with your other nonsense at a later time.

I prefer to deal with one ignorant argument at a time.

---

So make a thread about football and hooliganism. It's not what we are discussing here.

I was attacked by arabs and blacks.

I complain that arabs and blacks are way more violent than ethnically Swedish persons, and I see it as a problem for Sweden at large.

You then bring up one incident with a unknown perpetrator to show... Something, and totally sidestep the question at hand.

You then refuse to discuss anything but that single incident with an unknown perpetrator, and you use it as "evidence".

That is known as trolling, and I have had enough of you.

EDIT: We have had our fights, but I always saw some respect or wink in the eye.

I get brutally attacked and humiliated, with damage that might well be irreparable. And you bring absolute trolling to the table?

Seriously, have had enough of you :flower: off

I don't give a rats arse about your attack. What I reacted to was your broad statement that Ethnic Sweden(tm) was an idyllic place of tranquility.

When you make such a claim, it is more than appropriate to bring up ethnic Swedes busy making Sweden into an idyllic place of Peace and Love. There are plenty of such exaples to choose from, but since hooliganism hit hard this weekend, that was the first thing to pop into my head.

That you are still too blinded by your racism to understand that football hooligans are almost all ethnic Swedes is laughable. That you believe you are competent enough to discuss hooliganism without even knowing an Ultra is hilarious.

Detached from reality. Nothing more than I would expect from a neo-nazi to-be.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HoreTore

I don't give a rats arse about your attack. What I reacted to was your broad statement that Ethnic Sweden(tm) was an idyllic place of tranquility.

When you make such a claim, it is more than appropriate to bring up ethnic Swedes busy making Sweden into an idyllic place of Peace and Love. There are plenty of such exaples to choose from, but since hooliganism hit hard this weekend, that was the first thing to pop into my head.

That you are still too blinded by your racism to understand that football hooligans are almost all ethnic Swedes is laughable. That you believe you are competent enough to discuss hooliganism without even knowing an Ultra is hilarious.

Detached from reality. Nothing more than I would expect from a neo-nazi to-be.

---

Thank you for caring. Seriously, we have been on the same boards for close to 10 years, and that is what you bring to the table? Not very emphatic of you. Up till now I had a whole other view of you, misguided as it unfortunately was.

Sweden used to be more idyllic than it is, but of course every society always have its fair share of problems.

I know some ultras.

Again, :flower: off.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

I know some ultras.

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All yugoslavs, I suppose?

The amount of nonsense you have sprouted in this thread on this issue is staggering - from not knowing about the hockey/football mix, the belief that hooligan firms are made up of immigrants, to believing that casual firms don't do random violence - and so I find it extremely hard to believe that you have ever been a part of the culture.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

All yugoslavs, I suppose?

The amount of nonsense you have sprouted in this thread on this issue is staggering - from not knowing about the hockey/football mix, the belief that hooligan firms are made up of immigrants, to believing that casual firms don't do random violence - and so I find it extremely hard to believe that you have ever been a part of the culture.

---

Yeah, you still mistake Sweden for Norway.

The immigrants aint even disciplined enough to belong to a firm.

Sweden and Norways problems are not comparable, stop believing they are.

Also, :flower: off.

Horrie I really like you, and I like liking you, but if you aren't willing to recognise that Kads is right you are a bit confused

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

Yeah, you still mistake Sweden for Norway.

The immigrants aint even disciplined enough to belong to a firm.

Sweden and Norways problems are not comparable, stop believing they are.

Also, :flower: off.

---

Sweden is seen as an example to aspire to among the Ultras in Norway, particularly AIK. I watched the Ultra culture grow in my time at the West Bank at Ullevål. I saw ISKO ruin our reputation and I saw Ikaros ruin our stands, with close cooperation with the Swedes. From that I do know what their Swedish role models are up to. You, however, quite obviously do not.

Here is a random example of a facebook group hailing Firman Boys. A grand total of 2 immigrant names, of which one is latino and the other sounds ex-soviet.

But I guess they're "culturally corrupted Swedes".... In other news, Scotland Yard has discovered that there is, in fact, not a single true Scotsman.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HoreTore

Sweden is seen as an example to aspire to among the Ultras in Norway, particularly AIK. I watched the Ultra culture grow in my time at the West Bank at Ullevål, and from that I do know what their Swedish role models are up to. You, however, quite obviously do not.

Here is a random example of a facebook group hailing Firman Boys. A grand total of 2 immigrant names, of which one is latino and the other sounds ex-soviet.

But I guess they're "culturally corrupted Swedes".... In other news, Scotland Yard has discovered that there is, in fact, not a single true Scotsman.

---

Norway ain't Sweden, you are right in Norways case as there is certainly a hardcore right with all the bon-ton, and they sure are freaky, but that's kinda, well Norway

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fragony

Norway ain't Sweden, you are right in Norways case as there is certainly a hardcore right with all the bon-ton, and they sure are freaky, but that's kinda, well Norway

---

Can we please just ignore troll.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Husar

Wait, a single incident proves that Fragony was right all along? Is anecdotal evidence the new internet hipster thing?

Is it really that hard to see that white people and non-immigrants can be violent, too?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...azi-group.html

It just doesn't make the news as much apparently as scary immigrants sell more papers.

---

Actually, I was just poking fun at Frags, assuring him that we would find a way to lambast him regardless.

My more serious posts on the issue, see above, take a different tone. I think the race/culture label of itself is not relevant here. Immigration that creates a surfeit of urban poor begets this kind of thing. That was true when the immigrants were Turks in Germany, Libyans in Italy, Irish in Boston, or Japanese in the Hawaiian Islands. "Race," to the extent that that is a valuable discriminator at all, is not the point. If it had been a quintet of Connaught-born "trash" who'd felt oppressed by the Stodgy Lutherans of Sweden they might have targeted Kadagar in the same way.

The problems at hand are: controlling/deterring street crime and sensible immigration policy. Doesn't sound, from Kadagar's example (admittedly anecdotal in character -- but I am a qualitative researcher so I do not dismiss such) as though either is being well enough handled.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fragony

Norway ain't Sweden, you are right in Norways case as there is certainly a hardcore right with all the bon-ton, and they sure are freaky, but that's kinda, well Norway

---

The nazi groups are a lot larger in Sweden than they are in Norway. I still remember the hilarous nazi march in Trondheim a few years ago with half a dozen Norwegians marching with 50+ Swedish nazi who drove to Trondheim to help the Norwegians with their publicity stunt. Hilarious stuff, but only semi-related to hooliganism.

While football hooligans are way more likely to vote for far-right parties and a ton of nazi organizations have their roots in this culture, it's not entirely accurate to say that the hooligan firms are "hardcore right".

They are definitely almost entirely white, though.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

In other news, Scotland Yard has discovered that there is, in fact, not a single true Scotsman.

---

Scotland Yard is in London, they wouldn't know a true Scotsman if one glassed them in the face.

Sorry to hear about your hand, Kadagar, hope it gets better.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

Can we please just ignore troll.

---

Nah. I can kinda understand Horrie as in Norway there is actually something that can actually qualify as being facist, upper class, rich. Not idiotic flagwavers but a pretty powerfull network. But there is no such thing in Sweden, topic needs filter.

'Actually, I was just poking fun at Frags'

That's just mean

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fragony

Nah. I can kinda understand Horrie as in Norway there is actually something that can actually qualify as being facist, upper class, rich. Not idiotic flagwavers but a pretty powerfull network. But there is no such thing in Sweden, topic needs filter.

---

I am not talking about neo-nazi's, though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

Actually, I was just poking fun at Frags, assuring him that we would find a way to lambast him regardless.

My more serious posts on the issue, see above, take a different tone. I think the race/culture label of itself is not relevant here. Immigration that creates a surfeit of urban poor begets this kind of thing. That was true when the immigrants were Turks in Germany, Libyans in Italy, Irish in Boston, or Japanese in the Hawaiian Islands. "Race," to the extent that that is a valuable discriminator at all, is not the point. If it had been a quintet of Connaught-born "trash" who'd felt oppressed by the Stodgy Lutherans of Sweden they might have targeted Kadagar in the same way.

The problems at hand are: controlling/deterring street crime and sensible immigration policy. Doesn't sound, from Kadagar's example (admittedly anecdotal in character -- but I am a qualitative researcher so I do not dismiss such) as though either is being well enough handled.

---

In my perfect world, 10% of every nations population is immigrants, spread from all over the world.

That way cultural identities can be intact, different cultures can try different things, but still learn from each other.

So, that's how much "Nazi" I am.

Sweden however... *shivers*

Since I was born in 1980, 1/3 of new Swedes are no longer Swedes. That number accounts for nativity and immigration, and I count second generation immigrants as immigrants, but not third.

I was on a bus with my mother in one of the suburbs around Stockholm the other day. The buss was pretty full, and my mother was the only woman showing her hair.

Our immigration policy is EXTREME, and contrary to any other countries, we accept the immigrants others dont want.

The biggest political cry in Sweden is "EVERY HUMANS EQUAL WORTH", thus we accept the gypsys, the somalis, the afghans...

Nevermind they come to cheat us, nevermind they have no schooling, nevermind they look down on the society that feed them. They all have an equal worth.

I would LOVE to believe in "every humans equal worth", but when you start to talk about state finances and us accepting just so many an-alphabets, or how people fresh from a warzone just MAYBE have different needs, Sweden fail.

Heck, the latest dental-political-initiative completely failed to understand that people from Afghanistan might have other dental needs than a person raised with Swedish dental care.

I don't see myself as nazi, I would like to live in a society with other cultures. But heck, I want them other cultures to work in teh society I live in, and if they don't, I expect them to be on the backfoot. It's the same respect I give other cultures I dwell in.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by drone

Scotland Yard is in London, they wouldn't know a true Scotsman if one glassed them in the face.

Sorry to hear about your hand, Kadagar, hope it gets better.

---

Thank you.

Scotland Yard has some history behind its name I believe.

It is also, most likely run by people more culturally close to Scots than, say, Somalis or Gypsys.

So the "True Scotsman" fallacy fails here.

I never said Swedes can't be a problem, I just wondered why we mass-import known problems.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

I am not talking about neo-nazi's, though.

---

Neither would I call them that, they have never not been nazi's, same crowd. But that's pretty exclusive to Norway really. You aren't really doing yourself a favour if you link that with populist ideas which come from genuine concerns. There are problems, they need to be discussed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

I never said Swedes can't be a problem, I just wondered why we mass-import known problems.

---

Funnily enough, your first response to an example of Swedes acting like monkeys is "must be immigrants".

When you add in how you refer to other people as "sub-standard", constant use of slurs, etc, something doesn't quite add up.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fragony

Neither would I call them that, they have never not been nazi's, same crowd. But that's pretty exclusive to Norway really. You aren't really doing yourself a favour if you link that with populist ideas which come from genuine concerns. There are problems, they need to be discussed.

---

Husar was the one who linked some nazi's, Frags.

I've been talking about hooliganism, not about anti-immigration ideologies.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HoreTore

Husar was the one who linked some nazi's, Frags.

I've been talking about hooliganism, not about anti-immigration ideologies.

---

You talk about hooligans because you insist on relevating very real issues, yeah hooligans are a problem as well, granted. Isn't it a bit cruel to always be wanting to just dismiss things?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HoreTore

Funnily enough, your first response to an example of Swedes acting like monkeys is "must be immigrants".

When you add in how you refer to other people as "sub-standard", constant use of slurs, etc, something doesn't quite add up.

---

No, I said the perp is unknown, and that it might well have been an immigrant. I then explained the difference between Norwegian and Swedish supporter culture. Go back and re-read.

I also have asked you gently and then forcefully and now UTTERLY clearly, please :flower: off.

You as a person have lost my respect completely. There is a time and a place for everything, and I had already earlier in the thread clearly stated that I'm in a vulnerable state.

We shared boards for 9 years HT, and "I don't give a rats ass" is what you bring to my incident.


NOTE to other forum members: Yes, I am vulnerable right now. Not so vulnerable that I can't take an honest or logical argument, but if you want to show your detest for me, please save it for a later date.

Don't feed the troll

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

No, I said the perp is unknown, and that it might well have been an immigrant.

---

The guy was identified as a casual, and so the odds of it being an immigrant is very close to zero. Add in the fact that it was a group of three, and it's completely unlikely that all three were immigrants.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

I then explained the difference between Norwegian and Swedish supporter culture. Go back and re-read.

---

....And it was this explanation which showed you haven't the faintest idea of what you're talking about.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

There is a time and a place for everything

---

If you want a sympathy thread, stick to that. If you make nazi-light comments, expect to be called on it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HoreTore

The guy was identified as a casual, and so the odds of it being an immigrant is very close to zero. Add in the fact that it was a group of three, and it's completely unlikely that all three were immigrants.



....And it was this explanation which showed you haven't the faintest idea of what you're talking about.



If you want a sympathy thread, stick to that. If you make nazi-light comments, expect to be called on it.

---

Maybe I was unclear when I said :flower: off.

If you replace :flower: with a very common slang word for intercourse, you might very well finally understand what I mean.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

NOTE to other forum members: Yes, I am vulnerable right now. Not so vulnerable that I can't take an honest or logical argument, but if you want to show your detest for me, please save it for a later date.

---

Well if it makes you feel better, I don't like you really.

Horetore is accusing a lot of people of anecdote abuse, but seems to be prone to it himself. I look at statistics for my country. Violent crime is the purview of minorities by dramatic margins. Does this mean that ethnicity causes it? Nope, but ignorant desperation causes it and is made worse by each action which causes the natives to recoil. Reality and engagement are needed. Maybe pre-k and kindergarten - maybe immigration quotas and background checks for coming into the country. Maybe allowing law abiding Americans to carry firearms everywhere. Far right extremism isn't the answer, but living in a Scandinavian leftist-la-la-land probably isn't either

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fragony

Well if it makes you feel better, I don't like you really.

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I think you do, and contrary to HT you are more than welcome to a beer and a couch in Stockholm :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

I think you do, and contrary to HT you are more than welcome to a beer and a couch in Stockholm :)

---

Yeah I kinda lied

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg

Horetore is accusing a lot of people of anecdote abuse, but seems to be prone to it himself. I look at statistics for my country. Violent crime is the purview of minorities by dramatic margins. Does this mean that ethnicity causes it? Nope, but ignorant desperation causes it and is made worse by each action which causes the natives to recoil. Reality and engagement are needed. Maybe pre-k and kindergarten - maybe immigration quotas and background checks for coming into the country. Maybe allowing law abiding Americans to carry firearms everywhere. Far right extremism isn't the answer, but living in a Scandinavian leftist-la-la-land probably isn't either

---

That's sort of my belief as well... Let's be... moderate?

However, it feels weird being agreed by an USAnian... I mean, it's not like the Native Indians have a very positive view of what your immigration did for them.

If anything, your nation should serve as a warning example for other ethnic groups.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg

Horetore is accusing a lot of people of anecdote abuse, but seems to be prone to it himself.

---

Hooliganism involves a few hundred people every week, hardly anecdotal(but it would be, if I tried to make a claim that all Swedes are criminals). If you instead referred to my lack of statistics for the ethnic make-up of hooligan firms, well... Hooligan firms, being hounded by both clubs and police, do not reveal their identities and will certainly not reveal membership lists... I've provided "team photos" of half a dozen firms(remembering that the Swedish league consists of only 16 teams). I stopped there because I believed I had made my point; if you want team photos for the rest of the firms I can probably dig them up as well.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Hooliganism involves a few hundred people every week, hardly anecdotal(but it would be, if I tried to make a claim that all Swedes are criminals). If you instead referred to my lack of statistics for the ethnic make-up of hooligan firms, well... Hooligan firms, being hounded by both clubs and police, do not reveal their identities and will certainly not reveal membership lists... I've provided "team photos" of half a dozen firms(remembering that the Swedish league consists of only 16 teams). I stopped there because I believed I had made my point; if you want team photos for the rest of the firms I can probably dig them up as well.

---

Sports hooliganism is unique to Europe. People in the US have no idea what the hell is wrong with people who assault one another over soccer.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg

Sports hooliganism is unique to Europe. People in the US have no idea what the hell is wrong with people who assault one another over soccer.

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Why are we still discussing hooliganism?

Don't feed the troll.

Here's a thought, every nation should have 10% immigrants from all over the world. In a controlled manner.

What do you think about that?

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Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg

Sports hooliganism is unique to Europe. People in the US have no idea what the hell is wrong with people who assault one another over soccer.

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Can't be a hooligan without proper clubs, and the US doesn't have any....

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

Why are we still discussing hooliganism?

Don't feed the troll.

Here's a thought, every nation should have 10% immigrants from all over the world. In a controlled manner.

What do you think about that?

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Sure. Controlled assimilation and cultural exchange is great. Immigrants do wonders for their host civilizations, but too much is bad for everyone. They came to our countries to be safe and have a future. It would suck if our countries became less safe and fell off of an economic cliff.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Can't be a hooligan without proper clubs, and the US doesn't have any....

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Heckling only works if I have some idea what you are talking about. I have never seen anyone become heated about sports teams. White people in the US; where I live, are spineless, demure lightweights.

This is the perfect population to keep and bear arms - a population which de-escalates and avoids conflict is precisely the population which is best suited to arms.

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Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg

Heckling only works if I have some idea what you are talking about. I have never seen anyone become heated about sports teams. White people in the US; where I live, are spineless, demure lightweights.

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I feel an ownership towards my club. I grew up in it, I played for it, I have worked for it. It's been in my town for a century, and basically everyone I know in my town have the same connection to it as I do. The football league they play in are formed by the clubs. In the US, it's the other way around. The league forms the clubs, and the clubs are business franchises instead of community centers where people grow up.

Then add some crime, a sprinkle of gangs and drugs, top it off with alienation from society and voila; you have a hooligan.

It's honestly a case of Mah-rug beating Gar-gar who lives in the cave at the other end of the valley in the head with a club. Stone age mentality deluxe.

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Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg

Heckling only works if I have some idea what you are talking about. I have never seen anyone become heated about sports teams. White people in the US; where I live, are spineless, demure lightweights.

This is the perfect population to keep and bear arms - a population which de-escalates and avoids conflict is precisely the population which is best suited to arms.

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That was a new and interesting take on it, cheers :)

Problem is though, if you start spreading weapons around in society, what makes them not go to other more ill-willed groups, if you accept multiple cultures in society?

I am sure you don't propose race-laws, where whites are allowed guns and negroes not.

I would absolutely love living in a white society where everyone could carry a gun. I honestly think that would be a very safe place to be. It's only when you start adding in other factors that the question get all muddled.

Only thing you can apply to violence is more violence. I know a thing or two about street violence, More aggressive wins in the street. What happened to Kad could have happen to anyone. He did not have a say about it, as these '"tough guys " want to beat men as these pansies think of such. My unofficial advice is to gather few good friends and possibly some baseball bats. Not that i would ever advice violence.:shrug:

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Originally Posted by Kagemusha

Only thing you can apply to violence is more violence. I know a thing or two about street violence, More aggressive wins in the street. What happened to Kad could have happen to anyone. He did not have a say about it, as these '"tough guys " want to beat men as these pansies think of such. My unofficial advice is to gather few good friends and possibly some baseball bats. Not that i would ever advice violence.:shrug:

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I'd love to, but I have no idea who they are (again)...

However, if my google-fu ever comes up with a verdict of a gang being accused of this exact crime, I cant promise I wont note their names and location down for future use.

I wouldnt call friends, but wait until we have a 1vs1 situation.

I am sergeant in the Swedish Arctic Rangers. I have trained Pencak Silat.

They gave me the courtesy of having no witnesses around, and gentlemanly as I am I would of course return the favour. They chose to bring friends, I chose to bring my old silat sticks.

Would have to leave doggy at home though, would never endanger him unless jumped upon.

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

Here's a thought, every nation should have 10% immigrants from all over the world. In a controlled manner.

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So, uh, OWG enforcing a command economy and technocratically-driven population transfers? Maybe you've got a clue after all. :grin:

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I would absolutely love living in a white society where everyone could carry a gun. I honestly think that would be a very safe place to be. It's only when you start adding in other factors that the question get all muddled.

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Unfortunately, "white" is not a culture...

Ultimately, if your state has failed its under-privileged immigrants, it won't do to just blame the immigrants for being from 'incompatible cultures'. It's give and take.

One more thing: if you don't like Somalian immigrants, why do you generalize this animosity to all "Sub-Saharans"? They're all darkies, so a Liberian and a Kenyan might as well be the same as a Somalian? You know what we call this sort of thinking...

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

I feel an ownership towards my club. I grew up in it, I played for it, I have worked for it. It's been in my town for a century, and basically everyone I know in my town have the same connection to it as I do. The football league they play in are formed by the clubs. In the US, it's the other way around. The league forms the clubs, and the clubs are business franchises instead of community centers where people grow up.

Then add some crime, a sprinkle of gangs and drugs, top it off with alienation from society and voila; you have a hooligan.

It's honestly a case of Mah-rug beating Gar-gar who lives in the cave at the other end of the valley in the head with a club. Stone age mentality deluxe.

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This is blatant nonsense. Sports is crap and I hate it with fury. Anyone who invests more than a jovial nod to a bunch of idiots getting worked up over a ball is a blithering lunatic. All of the things that you just said about gang war aggression over colorful shortshorts and a ball is insane nonsense to me.

I don't want to see only white people with guns, but I would love to see calm and rational people of all backgrounds with guns.

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Originally Posted by Montmorency

So, uh, OWG enforcing a command economy and technocratically-driven population transfers? Maybe you've got a clue after all. :grin:



Unfortunately, "white" is not a culture...

Ultimately, if your state has failed its under-privileged immigrants, it won't do to just blame the immigrants for being from 'incompatible cultures'. It's give and take.

One more thing: if you don't like Somalian immigrants, why do you generalize this animosity to all "Sub-Saharans"? They're all darkies, so a Liberian and a Kenyan might as well be the same as a Somalian? You know what we call this sort of thinking...

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Quite a lot of people think I've do got a clue. Welcome to the fold brother ;)

"White" is not a culture... But I don't mind loading the dice.

As to your last part, first of all, Libya is not Sub-Saharan. Secondly, Somalis are to Africa what Gypsys are to Europe. Or to put it even more blunt, Somalis is what other African cultures look down upon.

Don't get me wrong, I'm no big fan of African culture at large. But to then import the culture that Africa looks down upon...

I guess you call that line of thinking "Realistic".

Liberia, not Libya.

Kadagar,

My sincere condolences. I can't imagine the mental and physical pain. I hope and pray for your full recovery.

Best Regards,

Crazed Rabbit

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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

Kadagar,

My sincere condolences. I can't imagine the mental and physical pain. I hope and pray for your full recovery.

Best Regards,

Crazed Rabbit

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Thank you, it means a lot.

Sweden got off easy. You guys have only a few percents of eastern Europeans in the population. I live in a country where the population is 100% eastern European. I see 20-30 rapes and several dozens assaults every time I go to work.

The problem with your theory is that those eastern European countries have generally much lower level of violent crimes, assaults and rapes than Sweden. Even if you argue that it has more to do with under-reporting of crimes (which is certainly true), the difference is too large to ignore.

Taking into account different type of crimes, like murder (which can not be under-reported, the victim is there, the body exists), Sweden has more than Bulgaria and Romania.

Or if you want a different example, Scotland has much more violent crimes and assaults than England, and ethnicity of Scotland is 95% Scottish/British and 5% immigrants, while England is 85% English/British and 15% of various brown, black and Arabic people.

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Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg

This is blatant nonsense. Sports is crap and I hate it with fury. Anyone who invests more than a jovial nod to a bunch of idiots getting worked up over a ball is a blithering lunatic. All of the things that you just said about gang war aggression over colorful shortshorts and a ball is insane nonsense to me.

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Hey, I fully agree with you on this.

Wow, the senate is hard at debate today.

OK, since this topic is also about football hooligans, I'll give my view on the matter and then bugger off, because only my opinion is important to me and I don't read what others write because I'm so self-absorbed.

Every country has football hooligans. In Bulgaria they are 99% white, pure blooded Bulgarian youths, aged 15 to 25. Shaved heads, which are mostly empty and a lot of beer and testosterone. Their primary occupation includes: beating on the guy with a different coloured scarf than that of their own club, drinking beer, wrecking public property and taking police batons in the teeth.

They gather like the remnants of late classical antiquity tribes. Each tribe has its local warlord and they carry some banners and go to war. Seriously, they go to football games mainly to drink some booze and have a fight. I enjoy traveling the country in my car. They enjoy fighting. They admit it and everything.

Most of them are kids from the farthest blocks of Sofia, the mini-ghettoes where you can get mugged on a bus stop. Where just 10-15 years ago, if you went to highschool and had nice looking sneakers, you better know how to fight or you have to go back home barefoot. A lot of them are orphans, delinquents, or other such vulnerable kids - they lack education, they lack the motivation to be educated and the grow into ignorant and poor adults.

I have not done extensive research but I imagine the football hooligans in the UK or Turkey or wherever are the same. Heck, the English hooligans pride themselves on being superior hooligans. They are more hooligan-y than the scrub hooligans from other countries. Until they get stabbed for causing trouble in Turkey lol.

So, this part of society exists everywhere. It is not related to importing people of other ethnicity and culture who do not get integrated in your society but turn to similar medieval activities. But instead of beating on other like minded medieval tribesmen, they beat on regular upstanding citizens who actually contribute to the country. If they don't beat on them, they pickpocket, steal, jack cars and so on.

IMO the first rule of immigration should be: only allow those inside, who want to be a productive member of the society and who prove before hand that they can contribute, and who are then routinely monitored that they do so.

Also, there needs to be a stop to this hippie bullcrap of reverse discrimination, where a police officer can lose his job for manhandling a dark skinned person because "Le gasp! Le racism!". No, skin colour does not make one a criminal. But if one behaves as a criminal he should not get special treatment by law enforcement, just because we want to be politically correct, progressive, upstanding young liberal asshats.

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Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg

Sports hooliganism is unique to Europe. People in the US have no idea what the hell is wrong with people who assault one another over soccer.

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http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xcyG8QTlqXk

How would you like your stea- I mean Europe sir, scorched or bloody, medium is unavailable I'm afraid

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IMO the first rule of immigration should be: only allow those inside, who want to be a productive member of the society and who prove before hand that they can contribute, and who are then routinely monitored that they do so.

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While I'm glad everyone's getting all authoritarian-statist here, that's clearly excessive and a waste of resources.

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Originally Posted by Montmorency

While I'm glad everyone's getting all authoritarian-statist here, that's clearly excessive and a waste of resources.

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Is it - when society is in free fall?

The Sweden I grew up in isn't the Sweden I live in now. And it hasn't changed for the better.


Myth, I honestly believe that the meeting of cultures, unless very harshly monitored, quite often leads to the worse of both (or all) cultures being enhanced.

Take the words "whore" or "slut"... When I was in school, those were words that were just no-no. A girl would claw your eyes out if you uttered them to her. Today, with the muslim influx, I doubt few girls can go through school without being called those words.

It's not because muslims treat their women like shit in their own cultures (well........), it's because it's the meeting of cultures that created the problem. Swedish feminism and dress codes meet muslim view on women and dress codes. It's easy to see where this goes wrong, and it explains why rapes are now the new cool thing to have in your psychological backpack as a hot young girl in Sweden.

In your example of Bulgaria, I guess the police are rather strict and baton-friendly when it comes to explaining where these juvenile criminals can and can't monkey up.

In Sweden, the police isn't baton friendly and thus that culture can roam free in society at large.

It's the meeting of cultures that creates culture-clashes, the cultures themselves mustn't necessarily be ill functioning as is.

The police are very strict when it comes to beating on ethnic Bulgarians.

See this article from last year. Translated, the title says: "40,000 police officers will be securing the Levski - CSKA football game"

Fourty thousand. Our entire regular army is 30, 000

They however, are neutered and can't enforce the law in the rural regions where we get reports of roma raping grandmothers, breaking into houses, stealing livestock in broad daylight and such. They don't lack the courage or the baton power, but they are stopped by the brass to avoid any misunderstanding with Brussels. No one wants to be bombed because they're oppressing the minority! However, this leads to the minorities oppressing the elderly and defenseless in the rural regions.

You know what's funny? When the son of a local Roma crime boss, known for the distilling of fake alcohol (i've had Jack Daniels which tasted like pig slop mixed with rubbing alcohol in the past) murdered a Bulgarian kid the football hooligans were the ones who went to defend the other people in that village. They also torched his place. The police beat only on the hooligans. IMO they should have beaten on all of them. I mean, the Roma deserve to not be discriminated against and be denied the police baton to the teeth!

bottom line: the police should be empowered to do their job and no drama would be had.

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Originally Posted by Myth

The police are very strict when it comes to beating on ethnic Bulgarians.

See this article from last year. Translated, the title says: "40,000 police officers will be securing the Levski - CSKA football game"

Fourty thousand. Our entire regular army is 30, 000

They however, are neutered and can't enforce the law in the rural regions where we get reports of roma raping grandmothers, breaking into houses, stealing livestock in broad daylight and such. They don't lack the courage or the baton power, but they are stopped by the brass to avoid any misunderstanding with Brussels. No one wants to be bombed because they're oppressing the minority! However, this leads to the minorities oppressing the elderly and defenseless in the rural regions.

You know what's funny? When the son of a local Roma crime boss, known for the distilling of fake alcohol (i've had Jack Daniels which tasted like pig slop mixed with rubbing alcohol in the past) murdered a Bulgarian kid the football hooligans were the ones who went to defend the other people in that village. They also torched his place. The police beat only on the hooligans. IMO they should have beaten on all of them. I mean, the Roma deserve to not be discriminated against and be denied the police baton to the teeth!

bottom line: the police should be empowered to do their job and no drama would be had.

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I am working on a thread about gypsys, to share with you all. So let's not dwell on that debate (I of course see your point though).

Do I read you right, when you agree that eastern European football hooliganism isn't the problem, as you there send more than your regular army to games, whereas it becomes a problem in Sweden, where we send "dialogue police" to matches.

Don't get me wrong, of course it's also a problem in your country.

But you do understand my view of it being the culture clashes that mainly creates problems?

I think Gypsys, as an example and again let's not dwell on it overly here - would cut their "burden on society" short if they lived in a strictly Gypsy society. Not that they want to, of course.

Yeap. To put it in perspective, something shady is happening with Syrian refugees on our territory. We were supposed to allow 5000 tops, only to stay for a while. Now we have about 10 times that nubmer and Brussels is already telling us how to integrate them in our society. Why should we? Greece closed off their borders for Syrian refugees. Bulgaria can't. It has to integrate them.

Why does Sweden have to turn into a melting pot and why is your police completely neutered? Same deal.

We have a saying here - "The one eating pie for free isn't crazy. The one giving it for free is." Your government wants the Sweden you live in now.

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

The Sweden I grew up in isn't the Sweden I live in now. And it hasn't changed for the better.

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Bollox.

The "Sweden you grew up in" was Sweden at its most violent. Nowadays, it's as peaceful as the 50's.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Bollox.

The "Sweden you grew up in" was Sweden at its most violent. Nowadays, it's as peaceful as the 50's.

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YOU. MUST. BE. ON. DRUGS.

Nice leftist extremist blog, now go to BRÅ (the stately organ working with crime), violence statistics are shown there.

Heck, even a monkey would get it in a few minutes, so I expect an apology from you in, say, a few hours?

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

YOU. MUST. BE. ON. DRUGS.

Nice leftist extremist blog, now go to BRÅ (the stately organ working with crime)

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Here ya go.

A linkie from BRÅ stating the exact same thing.

But have fun with your blind fanaticism.

Can someone translate the jist of it for those of us who don't speak Viking? :viking:

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Originally Posted by Myth

Can someone translate the jist of it for those of us who don't speak Viking? :viking:

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Basically:

The number of murders have been relatively stable since the 50's. There was a spike in the early 90's, which has now gone down to "normal" levels again. The largest groups of foreigners committing murders in Sweden are the feared roving gangs of Norwegians and Finns.

While you could blame the 90's spike on immigration, it was over very quickly and now things are back to normal. It would also change the immigrant group in question from Somalis and Afghans(they weren't here back then) to Vietnamese, Pakistanis, Syrians and Kurds.

However, the 90's spike also coincides with the end of the 80's economic boom and the financial crashes afterwards. Hmmm.......

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Originally Posted by Myth

Can someone translate the jist of it for those of us who don't speak Viking? :viking:

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I'll translate.

HT, states that violence has decreased, because less people are murdered these days.

I state that overall violence statistically have increased, but yes, criminals know that murder is one of those crimes where the police really still bother.


Take what happened to me as we're in this thread, they were not out to MURDER me. They were out to physically and mentally harm.

HT believes murder is the only manner to look at violence in a society.

I however note that other violence have gone up, and ascribe the lower murder percentage to everyone now watching CSI, and know they won't easily get away with it. Also modern medicine can save more people that would previously have died.

HT, will not touch any sort of violence statistics as he then get sad in the eye.

I however look at statistics and also have a "hands on" experience.

*OK, so I can jest about it, I think it was Gregoshi-worthy* :clown:



EDIT: CSI effect aside, HT also choose to forget that modern medicine can save a lot of lives that would before have been not-so-saved. Also edited it in where it belonged.

Seriously pathetic argument, HT.

Nonsense.

Murder is the sole definite crime statistic. We know about all of them. Every other statistic have huge dark figures, and so its usefulness is limited. We know that we only know about a fraction of them.

You can use it for arguing tendencies and such, but you must always be aware that there will be a ton of other explanations for your numbers than the one you choose to go with.

Murder is different. Murder is final.

The only assumption you need to make when it comes to murder, is the assumption that the number of murders in a society is a decent reflection of the level of crime in a country. Since we do not have a tradition of honour killings and such here, this is a reasonable assumption.

For other crimes, you need to make a ton of other assumption for your conclusion, which makes it a lot more uncertain.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Nonsense.

Murder is the sole definite crime statistic. We know about all of them. Every other statistic have huge dark figures, and so its usefulness is limited. We know that we only know about a fraction of them.

You can use it for arguing tendencies and such, but you must always be aware that there will be a ton of other explanations for your numbers than the one you choose to go with.

Murder is different. Murder is final.

The only assumption you need to make when it comes to murder, is the assumption that the number of murders in a society is a decent reflection of the level of crime in a country. Since we do not have a tradition of honour killings and such here, this is a reasonable assumption.

For other crimes, you need to make a ton of other assumption for your conclusion, which makes it a lot more uncertain.

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So you mean CSI have had no effect?

You mean modern medicine being able to save lives (thus no longer making it a murder) have had no effect?

You SERIOUSLY argue that society is better now, all other violence aside?

ARE. YOU. ON. DRUGS.

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

So you mean CSI have had no effect?

You mean modern medicine being able to save lives have had no effect, thus no longer making it a murder?

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The number of solved vs unsolved murders are irrelevant. What matters is the absolute number of murders, solved or unsolved. Attempted murders have also remained the same.

So, no.

This is simply a case of fear-induced xenophobia.