Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition

The African Pikemen are a nice addition to the Qarthadastim roster. I like not having to worry about the centre of my battle line breaking.

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Originally Posted by Julius Augustus

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...mperatoria.gif
For my surprisingly bad units, I would have to submit the Roman Legionaries. 10 Armor seems a bit low, but could be alright, but 8 defense skill!!?? That's lower than Pandatopi. It just seems wrong to give a well trained unit that low of a combat skill rating. And the pila. I hate them. 4 attack rating. That seems too low for a heavy javelin. I read that that rating is a compromise between the heavy and the light pila. But still, that means that the light pila would have like 2 attack. :wall::wall::wall:
My first post ever!:beam:

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Aparently if you put a chevron, an armor upgrade, and a defense upgrade on them and then stick them in guard mode they can stop phalangites dead :-p.:wall:

Think about efficiency compared to costs.... Romaioi legions didn't come cheap, and those imperial legions comes very late in the game...

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Originally Posted by Apázlinemjó

What battle difficulty did you play with?

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Medium

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Originally Posted by lionhard

Elite african pike men pwns :P

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I wouldn't really consider an "elite" unit "surprisingly" good... IMO surprisingly good is a unit you expect to be very shitty or average and they greatly exceed your expectation

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Originally Posted by Fierro

Medium

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Then those Ethiopians spearmen aren't that bad after all, though I prefer the swordsmen.

Back to the legionaries, on huge they have 202 men in one unit, which means +40 troops compared to other factions' non-pike heavy infantry, also they are very cheap compared to others again and finally, they have higher morale. That's why, they are one of the best heavy inf. you can get.

already mentioned but the casse - Kluddobro (Britons Shortswordsmen) is a suprisingly good unit

http://europabarbarorum.heimstatt.ne...dobro_INFO.jpg

+ drit cheap (cost 675 and 169 upkeep)
+ wide AOR
+ 100 men in a unit

- weak
- low morale
- fall like flies

they're basically the brit's immortals (aka cannon fodder) - they are a below average troop, but they are dirt cheap with a wide AOR you can have units take huge losses and replace them easily (in most of europe). You can buy 2 units of these guys for the price of a average unit, for that money they punch well above their weight

can be used in overwhelming force to take smaller rebel settlements (ideally supported by slingers)

cheap garrasion troups

against tougher stacks you must support them with a command unit for a morale boost e.g naked spearmen, or higher end swordsmen like the Milnaht (Belgae Swordsmen). But they are still great for giving the enemy a target while your better troops flank them.



my surprisingly bad unit is the Calawre (Casse Champions)

http://europabarbarorum.heimstatt.ne...lawre_INFO.jpg

unit size is only 60 so alittle small to make a serious difference
i also lost 2 units of these against a wall battle against 1 gallic swordsmen
relatively expensive - the Milnaht (Belgae Swordsmen) has basically the same stats but cheaper and a larger unit size unfortunately they have a low AOR so you're forced to hire these guys when you need to quickly reinforce an army

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Originally Posted by godsakes

my surprisingly bad unit is the Calawre (Casse Champions)

http://europabarbarorum.heimstatt.ne...lawre_INFO.jpg

unit size is only 60 so alittle small to make a serious difference
i also lost 2 units of these against a wall battle against 1 gallic swordsmen
relatively expensive - the Milnaht (Belgae Swordsmen) has basically the same stats but cheaper and a larger unit size unfortunately they have a low AOR so you're forced to hire these guys when you need to quickly reinforce an army

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I agree in that one, they aren't good as line-infantry nor "decisive factor" in battles.

has anyone used the "warewolf, cannibal" slavic spearman ? lol ..


https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...u_spearmen.gif

i have encountered many of them in when going into sauro land

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Originally Posted by godsakes

my surprisingly bad unit is the Calawre (Casse Champions)

http://europabarbarorum.heimstatt.ne...lawre_INFO.jpg

unit size is only 60 so alittle small to make a serious difference
i also lost 2 units of these against a wall battle against 1 gallic swordsmen
relatively expensive - the Milnaht (Belgae Swordsmen) has basically the same stats but cheaper and a larger unit size unfortunately they have a low AOR so you're forced to hire these guys when you need to quickly reinforce an army

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I think their 2 defence shield might help with that.

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Originally Posted by Apázlinemjó

I agree in that one, they aren't good as line-infantry nor "decisive factor" in battles.

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Doing It Wrong. The Casse "hero" units are there as morale-boosters and "point man" support for the common warriors; trying to use them as regular heavy infantry is missing the point, and moreover ineffective.

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Originally Posted by Watchman

Doing It Wrong. The Casse "hero" units are there as morale-boosters and "point man" support for the common warriors; trying to use them as regular heavy infantry is missing the point, and moreover ineffective.

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I meant the "decisive factor" under that.

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Originally Posted by Watchman

Doing It Wrong. The Casse "hero" units are there as morale-boosters and "point man" support for the common warriors; trying to use them as regular heavy infantry is missing the point, and moreover ineffective.

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but surely that only proves how limited they are?

the much cheaper naked spearmen for example give a morale boost and scare the enemy - can be used for flanking and fending off horses. As stated the only reason to use Casse Champions is because most of the better (and cost effective) morale boosting troops have small AOR so you're forced into using them

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Originally Posted by mountaingoat

has anyone used the "warewolf, cannibal" slavic spearman ? lol ..


https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...u_spearmen.gif

i have encountered many of them in when going into sauro land

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Ah, the infamous androphagoi, or man-eaters. I've always had the urge to go and have a small chat with them along with a Royal Army, if you get me. Let's just say that destroying the ancestors of a modern-day propagandistic pseudo-nation is going to be extremely fun.

Maion

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Originally Posted by mountaingoat

has anyone used the "warewolf, cannibal" slavic spearman ? lol ..


https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...u_spearmen.gif

i have encountered many of them in when going into sauro land

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As Sauros I have used them a few times... if I remember right then there good against cavalry pluss they make good work at cleaning the field of bodies...:smash:... but besides that... no idea.

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Originally Posted by Maion Maroneios

Ah, the infamous androphagoi, or man-eaters. I've always had the urge to go and have a small chat with them along with a Royal Army, if you get me. Let's just say that destroying the ancestors of a modern-day propagandistic pseudo-nation is going to be extremely fun.

Maion

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:wall:



To answer the original question:

Yes, I have used them. They are very good vs. cavalry and light infantry, but should be kept away from heavy missile fire. Together with Bastarnae falxmen, they make a fearsome and enduring combination capable of shredding every type of cavalry in melee.

Really? I only saw them some time ago in Olbia when I sent one of my Strategoi over to "liberate" the Hellenes of the Bosporos.

Maion

I hire them as soon as possible. the fear-bonus is enough + for the price.

Voinos is a cheap troops indeed... I once fill half of my Sauro army with them to fight pahlavans... my enemies will rout on contact with them... wahahaha...

Hehe, my grandparents did indeed fight well... ...and eat too, as human flesh is highly delectable, akin to that of a swine (kinda shows who we are most closely related to, along with rats, who share most of our anatomy and general way the body functions and responds to various stimuli- hence the use of pigs and rats in drug testing), only much more flavourful. Although this does depend on the diet of the human. :devilish:

Yikes Aimilios...

Maion

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Originally Posted by Aemilius Paulus

Hehe, my grandparents did indeed fight well... ...and eat too, as human flesh is highly delectable, akin to that of a swine (kinda shows who we are most closely related to, along with rats, who share most of our anatomy and general way the body functions and responds to various stimuli- hence the use of pigs and rats in drug testing), only much more flavourful. Although this does depend on the diet of the human. :devilish:

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I believe vegetarians and vegans taste best. After all, we don't eat flesh-eating animals, do we?

Mainly because that'd be bloody ineffective. Though, fish...

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Originally Posted by athanaric

I believe vegetarians and vegans taste best. After all, we don't eat flesh-eating animals, do we?

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That's because breeding carnivorous animals is not cost-effective. Less than 10% of consumed biomass will be converted into consumer mass. In other words: to breed a 100 pound predator you need to feed it more than 1000 pound of (presumably vegetarian) prey. It's far more profitable to sell this 1000 pound worth of vegetarian animals, than it is to feed them to carnivores and have only 100 pound of meat available.

Yeah, I remember vaugely something about this 10% thing during my last year at school. I remember our Biology teacher telling us that, generally, it is less cost-effective to actually feed on animals than feed on plants. But with the same logic breeding herbivores is more cost-effective than breeding carnivores.

Maion

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Originally Posted by Maion Maroneios

Yeah, I remember vaugely something about this 10% thing during my last year at school. I remember our Biology teacher telling us that, generally, it is less cost-effective to actually feed on animals than feed on plants.

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Well, from the point of view of the consumer it doesn't matter much whether the biomass comes from plants or animals: 100 pounds of biomass is 100 pounds worth of energy, regardless where it comes from. This ignores specific nutritious needs and specialized digestive systems obviously, but if you take those in account a carnivore like the wolf actually has more trouble obtaining and digesting 100 pounds of plants than 100 pounds of flesh.

However, from an ecological point of view vegetarians are more efficient. It takes 1000 pounds of plants to create a 100 pound vegetarian, but it takes 1000 pound of vegetarian (which in turn requires 10.000 pound of plants) to create a 100 pound carnivore. In fact, it's even more inefficient than that, since less than 50% of animals reaches reproductive age. So it probably takes 1500 pounds of plant to get a 100 pound vegetarian as well as its brother, which died when it was 50 pounds.

That's the good old food chain. Plants and the like do the primary production of energy and nutrients. Herbivores come and get theirs by eating the plants. Carnivores duly feed on the herbivores. Works quite well, but given the diminishing returns relative to the primary production as you move up the chain (ie. why there's invariably WAY more herbivores than carnivores preying on them), means there's no economic sense in intentionally raising carnivores for food.

SO it's like the Romaioi gets chewed up by the pantodapoi, which in turns gets whittled down by any missle unit, which the hetairoi would charge n rout...

A favorite unit of mine is any barbarian shortswordsmen, such as the Alpine Swordsman or the Galatikoi Kluddolon. :laugh4:

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Originally Posted by athanaric

Yes, I have used them. They are very good vs. cavalry and light infantry, but should be kept away from heavy missile fire. Together with Bastarnae falxmen, they make a fearsome and enduring combination capable of shredding every type of cavalry in melee.

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interesting ,they seem to get cut down by most infantry units , i do not recall if i have charged a cav unit head on into them ... are they available to hire as mercs?

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Originally Posted by Zett

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...n_elephant.gif

Surprinsingly bad unit. Very high recruitmencosts, high upkeep, die very fast against on of the cheapest units (Akontistai) and can run amok if not used correctly. That means you get a big Elephant, which needs much care, is very expensive and does a job which (except the frightens infantery/cavalery bonus) every cavaleryman with a xyston could do. You also have the risk, that it turns against your own men (one point more for the xystonboys).

Sure they look awesome and their charge is bigger then the one of a cavalery unit, but the high price makes them only to a "look how much money I have" unit. IMO they are not worth the money you need to recruit them. And I neither mentioned the two turns it takes to recruit them nor the limited recruitment area. But I have to admit it feels good to have the possibility to recruit them.

Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam

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I totally disagree good sir .

In my recent campaign a unit of these chaps with the support of a unit of Illyrioi Hippeis and another of Tarantine cavalry butchered ( starting game cavalry units as Epeiros ) every roman they could get their hands on , they creamed slightly tired roman lines , reaching all the way from the flank to the roman general and then proceeding to beat the crap out of him too .

After the last Roman city fell after a 4 year Epeirote offensive ( don't count the early stages of the Epeiros-Romani war defending Taras as at that time the elephants were campaigning in northern Greece , being used mainly as siege weapons ) I had one elephant ( unit str 3 ) left with 2 golden chevrons , and as soon as I retrained them they became a force of doom . I was so happy with them , I even trained another unit for another stack to go campaigning against the Ptolemaioi , in my attempt to keep the allied Seuleukeia in the game . A single unit per stack is more than enough , and definetely worths its money .

So you might want to reconsider , I wouldn't have been able to defeat the Romani without my elephants , that's for sure . No way .

"Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam" : a reality , thanks to Elephantes Indikoi .

Satyros