How do you want to know that? As far as I know at this moment nobody knows about Melissandre.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyblades
Printable View
How do you want to know that? As far as I know at this moment nobody knows about Melissandre.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyblades
There are rumours of Lady Seylise abandoning the Seven for a foreign god, Tywin is familiar with priests of R'hilor through witnessing Thoros of Myr fight in afew tourneys (and maybe at the battle of Pyke I'm not sure if Tywin was there or not) and after hearing of the great smoke monster that showed up during Eddard's failed escape while thoros was supposedly away chasing Gregor Clegane he put two and two together.
Aha, I don't know if such rumours really exist; I just had the impression nobody knows about Melissandres preaching and her presence at all at this point. Just to remember: We're not allowed to use knowledge out of the books our characters can't possess.
Thoros of Myr basically put Wildfire upon his sword, and ran around with it. He has no actual powers until the birth of the dragons and when "magic reawakened" within the world.
Tywin most likely thought the goldcloaks to simply be drunken fools than actually believing there is any kind of supernatural powers at work.
Except Varys, Sandor clegane, Cercie and even Joffrey were present and corroberated the story.
Varys lies a lot, Sandor will follow Joff's instructions, Joff will follow Cersei's instructions and is crazy, and Cersei is crazy.
...Yeah, and?
cmon dont make a problem from nothing. he didnt even say something about melisandre, he only said false gods, which can be known for the reasons greyblades stated and he said conjure dark arts which can also be known because of what was witnessed. if tywin would truly believe it or not is debatable but he would definitly use it against stannis if he saw some benefit in doing so. also this is a game so he doesnt have to be like tywin if he doesnt want to.
The fact of the matter is that the post is a problem because it's incredibly metagamey, something that we're trying to avoid slipping into by taking the game in our own strides. Now, I've largely kept quiet in these threads because there should be absolutely no knowledge of Melisandre's existence or anything to link her activities back to Stannis Baratheon, thus I should be keeping to the shadows for the time being, but I find that I have to say something in this instance.
The accusations of sorcery don't annoy me so much, since it's an easy claim to make and it could be falsely interpreted as being the fault of the Starks/Dragonstone's/-insert Lannister enemy here- , but claiming that the nobility are worshipping a 'false god' when there's absolutely no basis for doing so outside of metagamed knowledge? That's a problem.
There are currently no other worshippers of R'hllor in Dragonstone besides Melisandre at this point, so implying that Lady Selyse has converted is utterly unfounded unless one bases their claims on knowledge from the novels. This leads me to wonder; "where are these supposed 'rumours' even coming from?" How is Tywin Lannister hearing about 'false gods' when there's no mentions of such a thing even within Dragonstone itself?
Honestly, every time I see "there's a rumour...", I roll my eyes and sigh heavily because I know it's going to be something metagamey. I signed up to this game because I thought it was an opportunity to engage in a fascinating world and play events entirely differently from the novels, not for information/tactics to be generated from them.
I cannot completly agree here. Yes, nobody should use informations he cannot have in person from the books. But I see no problem in using information, a character has and base tactics or whatever on it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Secura
I really dont know why you're going on about it, I only have to persuade JHT that Tywin had the knowledge to make that message, not my opponents.
Heck for all you guys knew I'm making insinuations that Stannis worships the flying spagetti monster.
There's a rumor that Tywin shaves his head because his hair is made of snakes.
Yessss, now come here and ssshow me your eyesssssssss!
The Goldcloaks wouldn't even tell him, think how it would look...."I couldn't catch him because I was scared of a giant smoke monster that was not even there". They didn't even mention that swordsman from Braavos that schooled them in swordplay because it was too embarrassing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiaexz
Tywin doesn't put stock in rumors anyway....where the heck is Greyblades even getting this info from?:laugh4:
Must... resist... spilling... beans...
...Actually now that I think about it, we didnt encounter Syrio Forell. Even though we sent ser Barristan to capture Arya. Huh.
Kinda funny that he defected to....MUST RESIST SPILLING BEANS.:bounce:
i understand this, but it only becomes a problem if everyone starts to make a problem of it. i think john will judge fairly about what someone can know or cant use because he couldnt know. in itself that single accusation of heresy wont mean much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Secura
tywin does have access to varys and varys knows much... lets just leave it a that?
The fat man????:brood:Quote:
Originally Posted by The Stranger
I think you better get off the egg nog, he puts even less stock in rumors and is more of a "black hole of information" as far as Tywin knows/cares.:book:
Plus these people that you guys are mentioning have EVERY REASON to hide the truth and are only feigning loyalty for their our gain.(Not that we would know this but come on? why would the fat man and LF be loyal to Tywin like lackey's):shrug:
It is a mild suggestion.Maybe Tywin heard from a spy at Dragonstone of such things, who knows, who cares? I dont think it is a major issue.
Stannis has a mage?
How did Tyrell learn this? He must have mages too.
House Martell cannot condone this mage gap!
We will respond by hiring FIRE MAGES FIRE MAGES FIRE MAGES.
Well he does loaths magic users. Sheesh, its like you think I'm dumb enough to trust anyone for no reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by White_eyes:D
The thing is that it was going to be true but not just yet. It's like saying he knows what Mel is going to do even though she hasn't done it just yet. How does he know she even has "powers" or even that she is going to try and convert everyone to R'hllor or even that she succeeded?:shrug:
I might as well start predicting what well happen to Robb if he goes to KL's under the Lannister's "guest right" but that is from me reading the books, so better not to say it if it's not confirmed knowledge.:no:
Edit:BTW Greyblades, your playing your Tywin role "Like a Boss".:laugh4:
Did I ever say he knows about mel?
Then how does he know about false god's that Stannis is going to worship(Perhaps) and that Stannis used Witchcraft(I didn't see anything in the write-ups that links him to it just the books, thus I act like I saw nothing)?:book:
That isn't in the books. He goes to place x for totally unrelated reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by White_eyes:D
As you saw in my own message, I said it will be a repeat of Aerys the Mad King. This isn't in the books and it just a pure speculation.
Come on, you can figure it out. You'd be the first to figure it out, but maybe 35th time a charm.Quote:
Then how does he know about false god's that Stannis is going to worship and that Stannis used Witchcraft?
It's rather obvious to anyone who reads the books, but what if I didn't? I would guess that it was you or Joffrey with his hired lackeys. Stannis wouldn't admit to doing it as it shows his hand.
@Tiaexz: It parallels the books almost exactly so far, maybe not the Greyjoy thing but you know what I mean. Kinda hard not to think of what is going to happen.:sweatdrop:
I agree completely with Secura... So far, this game feels incredibly "meta-gamed". I feel like if you consider doing something, ask yourself "is there any of motivation to do this that stems from in-book knowledge?" If yes, don't do it. I'm not here to act out the books.
You know, I'm going to tell you when stannis dies and you are going to be so annoyed at how simple the answer is.Quote:
It's rather obvious to anyone who reads the books, but what if I didn't? I would guess that it was you or Joffrey with his hired lackeys. Stannis wouldn't admit to doing it as it shows his hand.
There is a difference between roleplaying and metagaming though Diamondeye.
Stannis will never ever work with the Lannisters, pretty much period. What can be metagamey though is if I would completely ignore my character to do such a thing. In the same light, the orders "Look throughout the city for caches of Wildlife" is metagamey for using knowledge not even possessed by your character to do something you only know from reading the book.
But then there is the other line, where you can act if your character does know something and this is evidenced by the book. For example, Stannis was at king's landing working closely with John Arryn and knew Gendry was Robert's bastard, I could use that knowledge to say Gendry is Robert's bastard.
The books should only be a guide as to what you can know and how your character behaves, outside of that, you might as well throw it on the fire.
I think it's good the background plays a role. A Stannis-Lannister alliance e.g. would feel ridiculous. It's not metagamey to use the character background from the book for decisions; actually it's rather the opposite. Nobody is forced to do this but I think it's great if you have the feeling to recognize a character. We don't have just some meaningless factions without any history with each other. You don't need to read the booky by the way, all relevant informations can be easily found via google.
All of my neighbors have mages. I must recruit a rainbow mage to defend myself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Montmorency
how is the entire game sofar metagamed for one comment made by Greyblades which was wasnt very odd at all. perhaps the false gods thing was something he couldnt really know... but then again perhaps he could know. you dont know who in Stannis his house is talking behind his back to Tywin (in this game).
If you cant use knowledge from the books at all then the game should be changed and only use the Westeros setting with the houses and map and perhaps even characters but leave the rest totally open. No rivalry between stannis and Lannister or the North and such. then you can develop a total different game. But if you do it this way then i think you shouldnt nag about tiny things going a bit too fast. its not as if tywin has called the entire Faith to condemn Stannis as heretic with a flaming sword who burns people in fires. Or that the Starks just plain murder the Freys when they go south of the neck to avoid the Red Wedding...
That wouldn't be needed anyway and that would be metagame-fail on the fact it doesn't even take account of the circumstances that lead to the Red Wedding.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Stranger
Yeah and considering Robb is being invited to KL, he probably wont have to go anywhere near the Freys.
It's not really meta-gaming to kill the Frey's. The position that they are holding is key and if we try and pass with an army we need to go thru them, according to the map we have anyway.
If they won't let us pass, what choice do we have? In the books it was clear that time and a little blackmail helped the Frey's. In this case we can siege it till the others invade.:trollface:
Not that I would do anything like that but you get the picture, it is more about location then because of the RW thing which has not even happened.
@Greyblades: Keep dreaming that Robb would ever trust the Lannisters with "Guest right".:wink:
He's young, dumb, and honorable as his father, I expect him to at least consider arguing for a more neutral ground for a trial.
Oh and when did I earn a reputation for betraying guest rites? Seriously, Joffrey's a twit but this Tywin lannister we're talking about, he's not going to ruin his reputation just to screw over a neutral party, especially now he's freaking kings regent.
We all know how Cat convinced him not to go and pledge fealty to Joffrey in the books and that was even before he killed Ned.(After he confessed to treason and Joffrey was crowned)
How much more would he distrust them after they outright refused his request and even murdered his dad for doing his duty. Even naive young people have there limits.:laugh4:
Why are you speculating like this here in this thread? How the Frey´s will react depends completely how JHT wants to rule about it. In the end the Frey´s are vassals of Tully´s so maybe you ought to be more concerned about Tully´s rather then Frey´s?
This is a feudal medieval system. Not a Absolute monarchy, it's somewhat expected to predict how various vassals will react. It was just an example that I was not singling out the Frey's but that if I wanted to pass anyone who is at a bottleneck, that I might need to try more "forceful" methods.(And not because the book said so but because its just common sense if you look at the map):shrug:Quote:
Originally Posted by Kagemusha
I think this sums him up better:Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyblades
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47MazYDnmaU
Also kind of why some of your RP has been more Cersei-like than Tywin.
I never suggested it was absolute monarchy, but maybe the Frey´s are more of a concern of Tully´s then you. There is no indication of what so ever that they are going to betray you, so unless you get information concerning such possibility from game host.Such speculation is completely unnecessary.Quote:
Originally Posted by White_eyes:D
If you are paranoid about Frey´s send a spy among them rather then speculate how they might act based on how they acted in the books.
Frey's do have a history is based upon Lore. Their stance and actions during Robert's rebellion are all well known.
Whoa, where are you getting that I was even expecting that they would betray me and that's why I would attack them?
I was just mentioning how there in the way and how a feudal system works. Even if the liege told him to let us pass, it would still be up to him on whether or not he should honor it. Who knows, maybe he well declare independence or sign up with someone else.
We just don't know what well happen and that's the beauty of it.:smoking:
Eh, I don't seem to be on the same page, and explaining my actions in an attempt to persuade my opponant otherwise would be a waste of time.Quote:
Also kind of why some of your RP has been more Cersei-like than Tywin.
But we didnt outright refuse his request. Come to trial, and beat us outright, and you'll get what you want.Quote:
How much more would he distrust them after they outright refused his request and even murdered his dad for doing his duty. Even naive young people have there limits.
I was just pointing out how such speculation is unnecessary in public. Like i said in my first post concerning the issue. I am quite sure JHT will not make this game a copy of the books.We will know when things will be unraveled.
You can react to issues when you have proper information to base your actions upon. If indeed Frey´s would decide to reject you passing the Twins.I am sure you Stark´s can come up with ideas how to deal with that.
I never really understood that, couldnt Robb have just said "screw it" and walked upstream to the green fork's source and crossed there, or heck they could go around alltogether by heading west of greywater watch and following the forest edge south and end up in the same place.Quote:
You can react to issues when you have proper information to base your actions upon. If indeed Frey´s would decide to reject you passing the Twins.I am sure you Stark´s can come up with ideas how to deal with that.
My thoughts exactly.:yes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyblades
With a medieval army you would suffer some pretty horrible attrition from that by not using the Kings road. Not to mention that North men are not good swimmers with the armor and weapons.:laugh4:
Edit: Speed wins the day, the longer your army is in the field the more angry your vassals get.(They pay upkeep after all)
Are you for real? Maybe a quick look at a map should tell you a bit different story:Quote:
Originally Posted by White_eyes:D
http://gameofthrones.net/images/West...f_westeros.jpg
Kings road goes from North to South passing Twins from the East. If anything going to Twins was getting off from main road.~D
Not anything happens as in the books but anything which happens before the start of the game happened exactly as in the books - that's at least what I understand. So you can guess actions to some degree on the history of Houses/families etc. - The frame is defined by the books but not the exact actions. And as probably the played houses act differently to some degree the npcs will have to act differently too. But I doubt they will have a strong change in aims or believes etc. At least not without actions of the players towards it. Anyway: Let's just see what's coming. So far I see no big problem. I really don't know how Tywin will know anything about the "false gods" but so far it's not a real problem.
Why did Robb go to the Twins then?
Did he just want to avoid the Main road?? There is more then enough room to just go around. I am just going to guess he wanted some supplies from them or something:sweatdrop:
I found this answer...Quote:
1) Because if you'll look at the map, the Twins is northernmost crossing. It is mentioned in the books that if they go any further south, they will have to fight past Tywin, and Robb is very uncertain about his chances of beating him (not to mention how he would have to ignore Jaime's host.
Only logical thing i can think off is that he was worried about leaving a possibly hostile force behind to harass his line of supply, but as we are not dealing wiht history, but rather fantasy.We should not dwell too deep into it.:yes:Quote:
Originally Posted by White_eyes:D
Edit: Just read your edit. So it was done to get to Jaime. Good catch.
crossing the twins meant 1 river crossing instead of 2-3 rivercrossings on their way to lift the siege of riverrun. and since the season was wet and rains heavy there would be good chance that they couldnt cross the trident more down stream because the river would be too wild and wide. they could go around it all together but that would mean crossing wood and swamplands... not exactly perfect marching terrain.
and by god you guys are supposed to be the top military commanders of the 7 kingdoms... im just an admiral and i could tell that...
Eh, this really doesnt matter, riverrun is not under siege and we're not even at war yet. What does matter is the starks response to Tywin's summons, should they back out when challenged or throw away any attempts for compromise without consideration, well, I think quite a number of lords would start wondering if the Stark's claims are legitimate.
Hint, hint.
Apparently they dont have the map of Seven Kingdoms either at Iron Isles. The easiest march to Riverrun would have been following the King´s Road to Lord Harroway´s Town and then marching the River Road West to RiverRun, but like White_eyes found from the text.The reason for crossing the Twins was to avoid the force of Tywin and surprise Jaime.
Greyblades,what Stark claims are you talking about?
Didnt you read his post? Sigurd claims Joffrey murdered Eddard Stark through Sandor Clegane.
Edit: I just realised how that sounds, put it this way: the Starks say it was murder of the Hand of the king, we say it was an execution of a traitor.
Oh you mean that. I would think no matter if Joffrey killed the Leader of their house and Warden of The North unlawfully or lawfully. There is little chance they would like to negotiate with him in situation where Joffrey is not the only claimant to the throne. You just dont kill leaders of mighty families wihout consequences.
Edit: Reading your edit does not chance my attitude. The Sympathies of house Stark and their vassals are definitely not with King Joffrey after killing Ned Stark.No matter what kind of explanations are given out in order to explain the act.
:dozey:You make it sound as if we wanted it to happen.
Funny, I remember one or two who ended up for Joffrey in the books.Quote:
Edit: Reading your edit does not chance my attitude. The Sympathies of house Stark and their vassals are definitely not with King Joffrey after killing Ned Stark.No matter what kind of explanations are given out in order to explain the act.
Surely im suggesting no such thing. More likely that you now just have to live with it.~;)
You know that they would have to march an extra 400-500 miles to go "around" using the King's Road, straight into Tywin Lannister's army which was stationed there, compared to going over the twins, cutting 400-500 miles from their journey to relieve Riverrun?
Well, anyway, I need not thier sympathies just the trial, if he refuses he comes off as not respecting the law of the land.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kagemusha
And you are saying that march on broken terrain would be faster then via road? Marching first some 100 miles offroad to Twins and then some 400 miles at broken terrain towards South with also in mountaneus terrain.So in total about 500 miles in offroad and broken terrain, compared to 700-800 miles via major road. Ive marched enough during my military service to understand the difference between marching at road and marching at offroad terrain.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiaexz
Was going to edit my post but you beat me to it by replying.
https://img703.imageshack.us/img703/6696/robsarmy.png
This is the situation, in the book, Rob sent a diversion to Tywin's Army, whilst going to relieve Riverun from a Seige. If he succeeded, he would have gained the support of the Riverlords (So more armies). Delaying time would mean the seige has progressed further, so it is a count down there. Plus, Robb doesn't have the forces to defeat two armies. Each Lannister army is composed of 30,000 men each, Robb only has 18,000 at his command, and he just sent 2000 of those as a diversion, so he is currently facing Jamie's 30,000 with 16,000. What he has is the elemental of surprised and the fact they are seiging. He needs to act quickly and put the situation to his advantage.
He ultimately did the best course of action and the results in the book reflected that. What stood between that is the Twins.
Orange Line:
Fastest Route to Riverrun
Requires the Twin's
Element of Surprise
Pink Route:
Slower Longer Route
Facing 60,000 men with 18,000
No Element of Surprise
I wouldn't.Quote:
Eh, this really doesnt matter, riverrun is not under siege and we're not even at war yet. What does matter is the starks response to Tywin's summons, should they back out when challenged or throw away any attempts for compromise without consideration, well, I think quite a number of lords would start wondering if the Stark's claims are legitimate.
Hint, hint.
Yes you are right, but in my post i was only referring to the actually fastest route and also pointed out that like White_eyes pointed in the text, what Rob did was the best move in Strategic sense.I am not though quite sure which of my posts are you referring into in your original post?
Sheep wouldn't eat meat, that doesn't mean the wolf should go hungry.Quote:
Originally Posted by Montmorency
Wolves have been extinct in the south for centuries.
I could answer that now... but why are we again having this semi-ingame dialogues here? That is really awkward. Is that usual here?Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyblades
The game thread is more for official announcements for your faction. Here is more for playful criticizing or information/etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kival
I am kinda happy about it all though, now I know I never need to move though the Twins.:clown:
@Greyblades: I think the North would be surprised if Robb didn't declare war after that. Maybe even accuse him of not doing his duty and being involved with his fathers death.
You somehow keep thinking that the Iron throne is a Absolute Monarchy title or something. Truth is that this a Feudal Monarchy system in which the Vassal provides troops and money to his lord in exchange for protection. Killing a head of house is always cause for Civil war in that kind of government.:book:
The King in Westeros has formidable powers though and a strong centralized law for a feudal monarchy - the problem is just, that Joffrey is not the rightfull king ;-).
...I'm sorry, but I generally assumed that accusations against a Prince would generally come under the jurisdiction of the Kings justice.
Anyway I'm giving you a chance to get justice in a fair, honorable and, in comparison, bloodless way. Yet you seem to be refusing without so much as an attempt at negociation.
You call for justice, but when justice beckons for you to come forward and state your claim you hide behind your armies and say no, and when you call for others to seek justice you do not so much as give them even a small chance to defend themselves in a court of law. Heck the one time you do so much as pay lip servce to the Laws of the land you kidnapped the defendant and dragged him infront of a biased judge, one I might add who was so struck with grief she would have killed anything that moved if you so much as implied it had something to do with her husbands death.
Heck I'm not even in character anymore, the starks repeatedly demand justice under the laws under the land, joffrey's supposedly a bastard, tyrion's implied to have tried to kill Brandon etc. Yet they sieze innocents on the roads, attempt coups, hold sham trials and when things dont go thier way they throw a tantrum and send an army. They are not coming off as seeking justice, they come off as seeking blind vengance and having no respect for the Laws and traditions thier former head of house held so dear.
OOC: Do the Lannisters have Arya in their control at present?
I think the two routes would take roughly the same amount of time, but why is everyone arguing about how long it would take Robb to go southwest when he's going to head southeast?
If we do we would be parading her around and telling the starks to attend court or she dies, if we dont we would be keeping quiet about it.Quote:
OOC: Do the Lannisters have Arya in their control at present?
Which do you think?
I wonder where Jyane Poole has disappeared to.
Huh, I had forgotten about her, she didnt seem important enough to bother with, I suppose if she didnt go with Sansa she's still in KL somewhere.
I wonder where Beric dondarrion went, he was supposedly on the way to take Gregor Clegane's head yet I didn't get any messages about it.
The more I look at it, the more it seems apparent to me that you need Dragons to hold the Iron throne and the Seven kingdoms together. That's where the Strong centralized authority comes from, because when all else fails "unleash the dragon" and that fear keeps the nobles in line.:wizard:
Without them though....:grin2:
If that was true Robert's reign should have been one long disaster.
...and it wasn't? I can't recall the exact Crown debt at the start of GoT, but it was a lot (note to claimants: you'll be assuming this if you take the throne). And then there's the fact that the court at King's Landing became full of sometimes murderous intrigue, with Houses like Dorne plotting rebellion to top it all off.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyblades