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I think you're right "The General," Jolt may not have meant turning the Pahlava, Pontos and Hayasdan into a Persian Empire. I guess moving your family 600 miles away and trying to carefully manage fiscal matters is a real stressor. Thank you for pointing that out.
Right. I meant that if the AI controlled Parthia/Armenia/Pontus, got to conquer most of the Persian Empire, some kind of reform would pop up where the said faction who conquered most of the Persian Territory disapeared, and was replaced with the "Persia" Faction, with new units, buildings, etc. Like the Parthian reforms we have around EB 1.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aodhan
In Brittain, as far as my knowledge about the Total War games goes, I never saw a stalemate happening. Normally one faction conquers the other, or several factions gang up on a single one and eventually destroy it.
As one of the main objectives of EB is to educate the populace, there will be no unplayable factions. Ever.
Foot
I understood what you were saying about the Pahlava, Pontos and Hayasdan the second time I read it, I get that. But I have seen stalemates though, the Averni and Aeudi never seem to conquer each other, so I fear that multiple factions in Britain could cause a situation similar to the one in Gaul, except worse because there are no external factions around in the early game to draw their attention away from each other, so they would constantly hammer away at each other until they ran out of people to put in the units. Although historically tribal warfare was in a way never ending tribes usually did not aim for battles of total annihilation, and in the Total War system there is no other kind of battle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jolt
Understandable, yet also, 'tis a shame.Quote:
Originally Posted by Foot
It would've been awfully neat to represent factions too insignificant to allow Player control the known universe with it, but still significant enough to have deserved a state of minifactionhood (raping the English language, yes, I know...) to represent that they were organized or dangerous enough in their time to cause trouble for the larger factions. I mean, they could've done with only a handful units (perhaps only those locally available), so thorough research would'ven't been necessary.
That said, as I said, it's still perfectly understandable why they won't be included. (Although, I must say, not being able to play a faction wouldn't prevent me from wanting to read more about them - rather, not being able to play them would mean reading about them would be the only means of gaining more knowledge about them.)
Oh well.
I agree with that. I'll have no problem at all if there are some unplayable factions that add more accuracy and give more balance to the game.
Alright, so where the hell does this information come from
I cannot find any reference to it anywhere other than the post above. Anyone know?Quote:
Well in theory M2TW game engine allows 52 factions, but only 26 can be playable.If you go with only 31 faction than all are playable.
Foot
Nope. But that'd be awesome, for the reasons I've said.Quote:
Originally Posted by Foot
Yes, well as far as I can tell its complete bull.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jolt
Foot
Foot, I've heard that info in at least 3 other places on these fora. Don't remember who said it or when or where, but at least one of the people was to be trusted (EB member or CA rep or Forum smart guy or something). Hope that helps (probably won't). It could be bull, but I know I've heard other people say the same thing, so sucks for them if it is.
Chairman
52 factions are possible. 26 are playable and the rest are minifactions. One mod tried to use this idea, MTR.
Look at the faction list of MTR: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=93379
In post 62 of the faction list discussion someone explains how this is possible
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...t=92340&page=4
Nah...
52 factions sure sound tempting, but they will just be annoying if you can't play them.
And also, there can only be so many units. It's better to have 30 really detailed and playable factions, than 50 uninspired ones controlled by the AI.
(Not that the EB team would ever do anything uninspired :beam:)
You could only have 52 factions *one at a time*. That means 26 factions, but really kill one of them so you have 25, *then* depending upon what faction you play as, one additional nonplayable faction is created to fill that 26th spot. That means in any given game there can still be only 26 factions, but a lot of other work would have to be done just so that in one game you get one new faction. If there were really 52 factions on the board at all times, I have a feeling we would definitely be filling them in with real groups, even if some are very sketchy. But as for the "anti-faction" method, well, we won't be doing that.
greek colonies (syracuse, massalia, emporion, arse)
AFAIK Emporion and Arse would be part of a Massalian faction if there was one so I suppose it could be a contender.
The 52 factions thing can be done in BI.
RTR is doing it.
Before you call the lynch squad, isn't the base for M2TW RTW-BI?
The key to the whole thing is that you cannot have 52 factions at the same time.
NopeQuote:
Originally Posted by strategos alexandros
I thought they were its' colonies?
Nope, they've got 20 factions. It's just that one of these factions differs depending on what faction the player chooses to play with. It adds up to 36 potential factions, IIRC.Quote:
Originally Posted by russia almighty
The M2:TW engine is indeed based on a modified version of the R:TW engine.
As I recall it, Emporion was indeed a colony of Massalia, but this does not imply that they formed a single entity. IIRC when Massalia went to war with Carthage, Emporion remained neutral. This does not suggest a strong bond.Quote:
Originally Posted by strategos alexandros
Was in a hurry, but then forgot to go back and change.Quote:
Originally Posted by strategos alexandros
Yes, Arse & Emporion were colonies of Massilia, but in a similar way as Taras was a Spartan colony and Syracuse a Corinthian. There were ties between them, but from what Sarcasm found out, that when Carthage & the Etruscans allied to expel the Greeks from Alalia in Corsica (which they did) Arse & Emporion sent no ships to aid Massilia.
So this shows they were most likely independent from Massilia.
Krusader just said essentially what I was going to say about Massalia but he beat me to it.
I wonder how did Sarcasm came to get that information? As far as I'm aware documents about that war are very sketchy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Krusader
Magic. Or reading the classics. One or the other.
I have been thinking about the Koinon Hellenon argument – league or balkanization. While I recognize representing them, as a unified league isn’t wholly accurate it is still quite possibly the best way to represent them in light of the limitations imposed by the Total War system. If Koinon Hellenon is broken into it’s constituent city states it would end up as several independent and static states which would essentially be little more than minor speed bumps (with the exception of Rhodes which would be a slightly larger speed bump) for human players. Since the Total War system does not permit creation of a loose confederation with shifting alliances, agreements and conflicts such as Hellas was at the time. If divided into so many independent states Hellas would not produce its historical center of political and economic gravity and seriously impact play balance. In short an over-centralized Koinon Hellenon is better for game play than a bunch of speed bumps.
It'd be more useful if one would actually post the name of the classic work which has that information.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarcasm
For all I know, you could have seen it in a universitary thesis.
I'm not so sure magic did it though.
Oh, I remember you now. You're the guy who added me on MSN badgering me with questions for sources without actually doing any research for yourself, expecting me to have everything in hand.
Hmmm, yeah. Do an effort » Herodotus, García y Bellido, Dixon and Casson at the very least.
Yeah, I'd be the guy who added you in the MSN, but that's as far as it goes. I did no such thing as badgering questions for sources, nor do I even recall having a discussion on sources of any kind really. What I remember was a supposedly friendly talking about the implementation of the frequent ambushes the Iberians did, as well as something about the forging of weapons. Now implying I didn't do research for myself? What for? To talk to you about this game? Eh? Nor do I really expect you to give me everything in hand. As far as I'm aware this game thrives for historical accuracy, and historical accuracy doesn't come over the top of ones head. As was said around this forum, the team was going to make an effort to explicit the bibliographies or sort from where they got information on various aspects for EB II. So paleeze.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarcasm
So, EB2 will have 26 factions?
Also this team says they have 31 factions that are playable, including playable minifactions..I'm not sure i even understand what mini-factions are, but having 5 more factions to conquer is always a plus :P
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...32#post3258432
No, EBII will have 31 factions. Please don't consider the uninformed opinions of fans to be kosher information of the direction of EBII. Besides we've mentioned often enough that there will be 10 new factions for EBII, which makes 30 playable factions and 1 slave faction.
Foot
We seem to have a different recollection (or is it perspective?) about those conversations. You implied several times that Iberians and specifically Lusitanians were incapable of fighting in a battle-line. Whenever I mentioned an instance of when something like that occurred, you immediately asked for sources, as if I should have them ready right there, just like you did here...and yet, you have no intention of researching anything for yourself. Should I be more fore coming, and waste my limited and precious time in providing you the sources in this situation?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jolt
I think not.
Wrong. As you very well stated by the words "implied" simply mean that I said something that it was not exactly that. What I did mean in that they would rarely fight in a battle line under native leadership in the way I saw it, and with the frequency in RTW. (If you also recall correctly, this was even way before EB Open Beta was released), you brought up some examples (The only one I remember you saying was Púnico), and that's as far as you are correct. I didn't demand or ask for any sources, as I said in my previous post. And how is it so that you know of my intentions to researching the said subjects or not? Seeing how you jump to conclusions, I'm beginning to believe there's more magic and less classics in the answer... Even so, you have proven your point, even if there wasn't one to begin with. Just a one time chat some years ago, which is now being used to demean myself. Oh well, tough luck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarcasm
Take it to the PMs people.
Foot
Right. I apologize. This conversation is over, anyhow.Quote:
Originally Posted by Foot
Oh 31 is plenty enough for me ;). I was just pointing out what another mod said M2TW was supposedly capable of to see how true it was.Quote:
Originally Posted by Foot
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krusader
Bit late, but you learn something new every day.
While Massalia and Emporion were both colonies of the Phocaean Greeks, the city of Arse(ken)-Saguntum was actually an indigenous Iberian settlement - NOT a Greek settlement.Quote:
Yes, Arse & Emporion were colonies of Massilia, but in a similar way as Taras was a Spartan colony and Syracuse a Corinthian. There were ties between them, but from what Sarcasm found out, that when Carthage & the Etruscans allied to expel the Greeks from Alalia in Corsica (which they did) Arse & Emporion sent no ships to aid Massilia.
H.
Perhaps the Phocaeans subjugated the city and took it over?
I have understood it as such that Arsé itself was a a Iberian city, it´s major port, Saguntum, was a greek one. It could have been the other way around with. I think I read it in a thread I myself started. I shall search for it.
Edit: Yep, here´s the thread: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...porions+Colony
And here´s the post of interest:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarcasm
In Emporion the greeks and the iberian people (indiketes) lived more or less "together" (as in Arsé) under greek and iberian laws, as it is told by Strabo (Geography III, 4, 8).
One suggestion more: as I told in other thread, the starting situation of Balearic Island could be more adjusted to the reality if you use Type III or IV gov. building instead of Type I - but I don't know if you will change the whole thing of gov. buildings.
Since it's Europa Barbarorum, I would like to see more Barbarian factions... :laugh4:
On the top of my head;
-The Thracians, who could play a beautiful game between the Getai, the Epirotes and the Macedonians. It could be the Celto-thracian kingdom of Tylis, or not.
-The Boii, who had a very interesting story and are a gameplay factor to control the Sweboz AND Rome and Epire.
-The Illyrians. There must be a reason why the Romans and the Greeks weren't able to subjugate the region until Augustus. Also, Dalminion and Segesta must be arder to grab.
-The Salyans: A Celto-Ligurian tribe. A lot of evidence was found in Entremont recently, evidence that points that this people has reach the organization of a Polis. It took a consular army to take it and raze it.
-The Arivacians: The tribe that fought Rome for a hundred years until the bloody siege of Numantia where Gaius Marius learned his trade.
-Numidia: Massinissa, Jugurtha. 'Nuff said. :laugh4:
-Axum and Meroe: They build Obelisks!!! Pyramids!!!!! :egypt:
-Laginians: In 270 Ireland was just conquered by the laginians, according to O'Rahilly. However, since before Niall of the Nine Hostages in 378 AD there is scant evidence of an organized polis in Ireland...
-Insubres: Come on, they were no Aedui in Mediolanum, they were Insubres! Keep the Aedui's dirty paws out of Gallia Cisalpina! Of, by the way, they also are the guys who brought the gaesatae in history, at Telamon.
And some greek thingies, if you like it. Of course. Pergamon's been already announced. So, you could add Syracuse and Massilia (if you don't put the Salyans), Cyrene.
Of course, the problem with these possible greek factions is the lack of room for expansion, so, their job is to eventually die. Unless you are a die hard maniac who find that playing hayasdan is a piece of cake.
=============
And the advantage is that all these factions requires no new unit.
*ahem* Read the thread (or just any random page of it really) and you´ll see why most of those factions won´t be included. I´m afraid I don´t have the time to give any detailed answers though. Just´d like to add though, that the Getai are Thracians, and that the Thracians as a whole certainly weren´t unified at this time to represent a faction.
I could have sworn the Getai are the Dacians.
Or at least the powerful main tribe of that group.
Yeah, but the Dacians are Thracian...
just throwin this one out there how about the nubians in meroe just south of Egypt they would be intense
No.
Look at the first page.
Numidia almost seems as if it is BADLY needed. There has to be someone to keep the Qarthadastim from eatng up N. Africa. They do it in almost every campaign.
Indeed, I´d say the Numidians is the one faction which is mostly direly needed for EB2. Though of course, two numidian factions wouldn´t hurt either...
That's is actually a bloody good idea. I'd PM this to someone. (haven't read past this, so don't know if it has been dismissed further down the page)Quote:
Originally Posted by I Am Herenow
Hopefully it's possible. should be.
It's not going to happen, I am afraid. It's too much work to get all 52 factions up to EB-quality, and the EB team wants all factions to be playable at the same time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Che Roriniho
1. Numbia (A must and possible reforms with Carthage)
2. Pergamon (Pretty much already annouced)
3. Another Iberian Faction (Would be a good mix to the map)
4. Another brit island faction (Suggestion: Caledonion or Goidilic)
5. illyria
6. Scythia/Alans (rival to Sauromatae)
7. Indian faction (lengthen the map a bit)
8. Celtiberians
9. Bosphoran Kingdom (Interesting position and pretty wealthy)
10. Chatii (Madmen tribe be fun to be but very challenging)
or rid of the Konion Legion and divide it into Sparta and Athens the rest become under them or there own rebel cities
Honoruable Mention = Georgian faction, Ethiopia, and Meroe
Plus i believe famous generals should be scripted in like ceaser and Hannibal
Pretty much? How pretty much can it get?Quote:
Originally Posted by ibleedgrenchese
And the scripted generals stuff has already been gone over many times, EB is about simulating alterante history, not just recreating it. If you want that you can watch a documentary.
Well well well. Ain't that funny?Quote:
Originally Posted by General Appo
I guess, writing a suggestion post in a suggestion thread is not what I should have done... I don't get it though. I've read most of the 24 pages of the thread... And I've seen a lot of suggestions. There was some debate to their legitimacy but, still...
I think it's not relevant, since they are suggestions!!!
Fine by me. Since your answer on the Thracians was a little bit thin, I just wonder what other great arguments you could have written to smite down my suggestions?Quote:
Originally Posted by General Appo
Now. I'll show you how this is thin.Quote:
Originally Posted by General Appo
Yes the Getai/Dacian/Agrianian/Odrysai are all Thracian "tribes". It's true. They weren't unified. It's true.
AS were the KH, the Saba, the Aedui, the Arverni, the Sarmatians, the Sweboz...
The reason under my suggestion was that there has been a political entity in Thracia in all the period covered by EB. Either it's the Odrysian kingdom, the Tylis kingdom, the Sapaiean kingdom, the kingdom of Thracia... It was finally annexed by the Romans in 46, well into Claudius reign. And culturally and politically it was very different in Thrace than in Dacia. No Zalmoxis, to keep it simple.
There is a lot of new faction slots opened by MTW2. It would be a shame if all these slots are taken by hellenic/hellenistic factions. There are already too many, almost half of the factions available. The game is called Europa Barbarorum by Jove!
Most of them would be "kill me please" factions anyway. Ah humbug.:inquisitive:
You'll understand that after 24 pages we are a bit tired of answering the same suggestions over and over again, though? I had kind of given up posting in these kind of threads since no matter how thorough my explanation was of why, say, the Caledonians wouldn't be included, someone would suggest them again two or three pages further. Especially Meroe, which has been discussed to death.Quote:
Originally Posted by dominique
That said, Tylis is a good suggestion, which I haven't heard before. Not sure how important they were, though. I am not an expert, but did they, or any Thracian kingdom, accomplish much in between the death of Lysimachos and the rise of the Geto-Dacian kingdom?
Nonsense. The Suebi, Aedui and Averni are historical confederacies. The KH is based on the Cremonidean alliance. The Saba are a single city!Quote:
Yes the Getai/Dacian/Agrianian/Odrysai are all Thracian "tribes". It's true. They weren't unified. It's true.
AS were the KH, the Saba, the Aedui, the Arverni, the Sarmatians, the Sweboz...
Ludens pretty much said it all, but I´d just like to add that you said:
"-The Thracians, who could play a beautiful game between the Getai, the Epirotes and the Macedonians. It could be the Celto-thracian kingdom of Tylis, or not."
To me, that sounded like you thought that the Getai weren´t Thracians, a common misbelief, and so I simply said that the Getai were Thracians and that the Thracians at a whole weren´t unified enough to represent a faction. I never said anything about Tylis.
Also, I can not believe that you have read most of the pages of this thread and still suggest Meroe, ´cause I must have seen dozens of explanations by EB team members and other why Meroe will not be in the game.
I"m really hoping for some city states especially Syracusai. I hope some of the factions are small because they are so much fun for experienced players and would be a blast to role-play/AAR.
But I know the EB team will make excellent choices in all their infinite wisdom!:balloon2:
thracians were also a good addition, berbers and numidia of course also... more germenic tribes , illirians....
The factions I thought that would be nice to add in a new version of EB, the first times I was playing it, were/are:
1 - Pergamon (announced for EB2, yeah)
2 - Galatians (more people down there in Asia Minor could level the area, although the faction risks to be destroyed soon since it's surrounded everywhere)
3 - an Illyrian confederation or similar if possible (pillow between Romani, Getai and Epeiros, particularly those green guys that always conquer the whole Balcans)
4 - Numidia (I would have mantained them instead of adding Sabaeans... however, they're a must, and they could also form a pillow in North Africa since the Carthaginians expand too much and too soon in the region)
5 - Belgae (pillow between the two Gaul factions and the Sweboz)
6 - Celtiberians (pillow between Lusotannan and the two Gaul factions, maybe also Carthage and Rome if they try to expand in Spain)
7 - Boii (pillow between Sweboz, Getai, Epeiros/Illyrians, Romans and the rest of Central-Eastern Europe)
8 - another Britannic faction, maybe a Goidlic one if Caledonians can't form a faction (so that Casse won't more feel lonely in Britannia)
9 - Reign of Syracuse (it would probably be crushed by Carthaginians and Romans, if not even Epeirotes, but this is historical; then you may say that we shouldn't use a slot for a faction that would be historically destroyed by the end of the 3rd century BC, but as a human faction Syracuse probably will be one of the hardest and most fun factions of all)
10 - dunno, maybe another German faction in the East for balancing the area if possible, or a Thracian settlement that can expand in the rest of Thracia (not a whole united federation) and form a pillow between Epeiros/Makedonia and Anatolia, or somebody in Africa like Nubians or Ethiopians or whichever else you want
11 - Alien emerging faction that lands somewhere in the map with laser troopers, plasma tanks, photon torpodoes launchers and headhurling giant flaming pig riders with lorica segmentata.
DAMN! I've just spent the past hour looking for info so I can do a nice Drawing to give Foot and his teams some Idea's. Damn. If they were to be included, it would be similar to the 'Ancient' Egyptians, ie, blue and gold head-dresses for the Generals, that sort of thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaknafien
Foot, or whoever, if you want me to do one, just PM me.
Huh? "Give me a typical fan-made Bartix", you say? :inquisitive: You forgot: the Squirrels!Quote:
Originally Posted by Connacht
Oh my rotfl, I don't know what you are talking about, so I've just searched infos about this "Bartix" and what I found is this amazing topic...Quote:
Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios
Quote:
Originally Posted by Che Roriniho
Seeing as Foot has said maybe 49 times that Meroe won´t be in the game no matter freaking what (well, unless CA releases an engine patch that increases the number of culture slots to 40 and the faction ones to 278) I´d say that it would be kinda pointless.
Totally agree with you about Syracuse... It would be my first choice to play if it's in the new version....I love that story about Archemedes and "The Claw"... They inspire the imagination... The defense of Syracuse was like " The Alamo" of the ancient world. Plus a lot more is known about them than some of these other factions...Quote:
Originally Posted by Connacht
But the sad truth is that they are already in or they aren't in at all!
I believe it has been said that Syrakousai will no be a stand-alone faction. Sorry guys.
It's a shame indeed. However, the might of Syrakuse was a former shadow of itself, especially after the death of Agathokles.
that is indeed a shame....But perhaps a mimi-mod can be worked out to swap Syracuse for another faction if a player likes...For players that are into the Punic Wars and like playing on that part of the map ( central med, Greece)Quote:
Originally Posted by General Appo
When you say "stand alone" does that mean that it may be included as non-playable faction?
All factions will be playable, I believe they have stated that. I could be unsure, but I believe that MAA has also said one slot might be reserved for a scripting faction -shrug-.
Correct on both counts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hax
Noobie question but what does scripting faction mean?
I don´t know the details but in EB1 after the inclusion of the Saba whom occupied the Roman Senate´s faction slot, certain scrips from some reason just didn´t work anymore, such as the one about Alexander´s Tomb, Baktria breaking away and I believe the Anabasis.
Ahhh. So the equivalent in MW2 would be using the papal faction as the "scripting faction" no doubt?
My top hope is for a Bosporan faction, because of the interesting position and mix of Hellenic and Steppe culture.
One of those Greek cities in Iberia might be interesting too.
Huh? :inquisitive:Quote:
One of those Greek cities in Iberia might be interesting too.
Emporion and Saguntum (the port of Arsé) where Greek colonies founded by Massalia. It has been suggested they could be turned into one faction, a la the Koinon Hellenon. However, an EB member stated in this very thread that they weren't very close. When Massalia declared war on Carthage, its colonies didn't bother to send aid. In addition, these communities were rather dependent on their Iberian/Gallic neighbours, and were more traders than world conquerors.Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Trek
thats true.
If an Iberian (Iberian peninsula, that is, not caucasian Iberia:beam:) faction is indeed to be added, I think some Celtiberian tribe, for instance the Arevaci, would make more sense. Especially considering the problems they caused for the romans during their campains in Iberia. The iberian peninsula was full of warlike native tribes, but the greek influence was primarily ristricted to the costal areas.
I personally want to see:
the scythians to counter the Sarmatians
bastarnae if possible, popluate the NE map a bit more
a Germanic tribe to rival Sweboz, possiby Teutons
a british tribe to counter casse
an Irish tribe (or maybe even 2!) to fight over Hibernia
Another Arbian tribe to rival the Sabeans OR the Nabataean kingdom
The Mauryan Indian Empire. kinda like Parthia in vanila Rome, way at the edge of the map
an celt-Iberian faction to rival Lusitanians
an Ilyrian Faction OR maybe Pergamon
the 2 Numidian Kingdoms
the Belgae
allof these factions would definatley balance out various regions and make EB another 100x more addicting than it already is
I would really like to see the Yuezhi/Wusun as a faction. The idea of Steppe nomads with a culture that is closely related in language and dress to the ancient Celts and ancient Greeks would be an interesting addition.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo the Greek
The Yuezhi were one of the original factions in EB1 open beta, but where quickly replaced by the Saka. The problem was that they possibly weren't on EB's map at the starting date (although this is debatable) and in any case only became interested in the EB area a century or so later. The EB team has stated repeatedly that there will be no emerging factions, so they most likely won't be in EB2.Quote:
Originally Posted by Meroveous
It's a pity, because I think they would have made a nice addition, but I can see where they are coming from. As for their relations to the Celts, I don't think I am qualified to comment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Majd il-Romani
1-they are using the same provinces (almost), as in EB1-so the irish factions aren't a particularily good idea.
2-and Maurya would hardly show in EB2-you would have to extend the map east 9the EB team was very explicit IIRC; same map, bigger scale)
3-pergamon is already in, so no need for the maybe...
4-To my knowlege, the Cimbri & teutones were apparently celtic(which is strange, but not entirely impossible)
:
Hmmm...
Then what about Cappadocia?
If I'm not mistaken, Ariarathes made Cappadocia an autonomous state sometime around 270 b.C.
They were involved in the affair of Asia minor to some extent, but I am not sure to what extent they had an army that would be able to do anything, really.
They were under seleucid rule in 272, though, so it might not be such a good Idea, but then again, so were the Bactrians. Anyway, it would be interesting if someone knew a bit more about them.