White America will be minority by 2042

¡Ola, amigos Americanos! In a few decades whites will no longer be the majority in the Estados Unidos.

Among the young ones the pace is even faster: by 2023, more than half of all children will be from minorities. I wonder what American members think of this development.

¿What about the language for instance?
Already tens of millions of Americans don't speak a word of English, many more can neither read or write it, and by the looks of it they won't have to.

The Hispanic population is projected to nearly triple, from 46.7 million to 132.8 million, from 2008 through 2050, the Census Bureau said. Its share of the total U.S. population is expected to double from 15 to 30 percent. The African-American population is projected to increase from 41.1 million to 65.7 million by 2050, going from 14 percent of the U.S. population to 15 percent. The Asian-American population is expected to increase from 15.5 million to 40.6 million, or from 5.1 percent to 9.2 percent of the population.

linky

Discuss please.

I won't cry over the fact that Waspy McWaspers will no longer be the majority here. As far as the practical implications of it go, there won't be any really. 1st generation immigrants might not learn English, but the 2nd generation almost universally becomes 100% Americanized. If they manage to keep some of their ethnic flavor, even better. We are a nation of immigrants and no single ethnic group can claim primacy here. Soooo, all is well.

Don't think it really matters there.

Dang it! By then I'll be too old and senile to know that I'll have to press "2" (instead of "1") for english when I call a business.

It really doesn't matter; being American has nothing to do with ethnicity or skin color. It's about watching television, driving a car and drinking beer. Maybe all at the same time. Guns are optional in the North, mandatory in the South.

'Nuff said.

Which is why it is so important to get affirmative action laws off of the books now. Imagine if we are a minority and the laws are still unfairly targeting us? That would essentially mean that the non-white majority would have preferential treatment in law. Couple this with the idea that unsustainable immigration rates don't allow for certain western ideals to shine through - namely the freedoms that make this nation so unique. I don't care about English as a language, but the ideals of Freedom are not so uniformly shared by other cultures.

Say what you will, but the nations which the majority of our immigrants are beginning to arrive from have sham democracies that don't respect the individual and cultures that largely ignore even the precept of impartiality.

This is not a tirade against immigration - rather a reason to have a fair and sustainable system that benefits freedom, the nation and the immigrant rather than just the immigrant.

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Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff

Which is why it is so important to get affirmative action laws off of the books now...

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Affirmative Action is on its way out. In fact, that might be one of the positive things that might happen if The Obamination manages to grab the presidency: the Old Guard of the civil rights movement will be left with nothing to cry about. Hence, dropping AA will become easier. Cali did it, so did Michigan (at least partially). The rest will follow.

Whites will still be the largest group though. Glad to see most Americans don't really care about it. Your skin doesn't determine who you are.

*In reply to the thread title*

...Your point being?

Its not like its going to cause a problem, most are going to have learn english anyway!, and besides what do you expect from a country like the USA, its going to attract alot of immigrants, (its been doing that since the late 19th century, correct me if im wrong, im not much of a american historian) and anyway, this is only going to happen if the number of migrants is the same or higher as there are now!

Being born and raised in South Texas I've been a minority my whole life. And I find the whole Mexicans don't speak english thing as the biggest misnomer this side of the pecos. If you are under 70 you speak english no matter what you're standing in life. I would also point out that this doesn't affect me at all due to the fact I have more in common with a mexican here than a white man in Nebraska or Iowa.

I would like to say that the US outta be making English a requirement or at least the nation's official language.

I am an immigrant myself and must say why the hell are you in the United States if you don't want to learn English. Come on, that is just ridiculous. I know that in many areas that you don't necessarily to need to know English to live comfortably, but you should at least make an effort to integrate into the country....

Anyways, regarding affirmative action. It is so ironic that it is actually going against the Asian minorities for college and graduate admisions. Generally, lets take a 100 point scale or something, a 80 from an Asian is equivalent to a 75 from a Caucasian to a 70 from an African-American/Hispanic. Very very infuriating here.....

I would also like to point out that with an increased number of minorities, the priorities of the American government will be changed. With a majority of European immigrants, we focused on European issues. With increased diversification, we would 'spread the love' even farther then we currently do.

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Originally Posted by Marshal Murat

I would also like to point out that with an increased number of minorities, the priorities of the American government will be changed. With a majority of European immigrants, we focused on European issues. With increased diversification, we would 'spread the love' even farther then we currently do.

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No we wont. Yall really haven't had much contact with 2nd and 3rd generation mexican americans have you?

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

No we wont. Yall really haven't had much contact with 2nd and 3rd generation mexican americans have you?

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Agreed. Latinization of the U.S. is by all means a false alarm. The integrity of this country will be unassailable for as long as we stand head and shoulders above everyone else both in terms of economic prosperity *AND* freedom. Gotta have them both or it won't work.

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

Yall really haven't had much contact with 2nd and 3rd generation mexican americans have you?

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None at all, Sir. That's why yall is asking. :wink:

Actually I was wondering particularly about the language, though of course culture and politics have a role in this. Particularly with regard to Hispanic immigration.

I read more and more articles about confrontations in the small columns of U.S. newspapers. Like the Equal Opportunities Commission suing the Salvation Army for firing clerks who refuse to learn or speak English. Or about Spanish schools financed by Mexico on U.S. territory where all books written by 'whites' are banned. Or Arizona schools that teach 'Raza Programs' and use textbooks that are anti-white and advocate erasing the U.S.-Mexican border and a Hispanic 'take-over' of the American South-West.

Another issue is immigration law. Most Americans demand stricter immigration policies, particularly measures against illegal immigration from Mexico. Yet both McCain and Obama support giving legal status to millions of illegal immigrants (again) simply because they have to pander to Hispanic voters (dubbed the 'Hispanic hurdle').

Maybe Samuel Huntington is right that the inflow of Hispanic immigrants threatens to divide the United States into two cultures, because unlike past immigrant groups, Mexicans and other Latinos have not assimilated into mainstream U.S. culture, forming instead their own political and linguistic enclaves—from Los Angeles to Miami? Hispanic youth have an underclass culture with high school dropout rates, teen birth rates and crime rates, and there seems to be no upward trend from one generation to the next.

And is there not a marked difference between Latin American immigrants and previous immigrants in that the former, for the first time, stake historic claims to American territory? It is easy to see what this ethnic devision can lead to. Antonio Villaraigosa, anyone?

Just asking yall.

Not to worry, I'll be in my dotage by then and won't notice. I'll just have to brush up on important hispanic phrases like "Camarero, dos cervezas por favor" and I'll *hic* get by.

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Originally Posted by Adrian II

Just asking yall.

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"I read more and more articles about confrontations in the small columns of U.S. newspapers. Like the Equal Opportunities Commission suing the Salvation Army for firing clerks who refuse to learn or speak English." -- another question is...how did those guys get hired in the first place? Was English not a job requirement? If not, they why fire them for something that was overlooked when hiring them?

"about Spanish schools financed by Mexico on U.S. territory where all books written by 'whites' are banned. Or Arizona schools that teach 'Raza Programs' and use textbooks that are anti-white and advocate erasing the U.S.-Mexican border and a Hispanic 'take-over' of the American South-West." -- Private schools always have and always will be allowed to teach whatever the heck they want. I have no problems with it. As long as the taxpayers money is not being spent I'm cool with it. If you show me these kinds of shenanigans in public schools, Ill get mad very quickly.
As far as the realistic secession of the South-West.... it's just not going to happen. Military intervention aside, Mexico simply has *nothing* to offer to the people of South-West. Not a darn thing. Thus, any secessionist movements in the South-West will go the way of Michigan Militia...i.e. a few crazies raving about their crazy cause and reveling in their own craziness.

"Maybe Samuel Huntington is right that the inflow of Hispanic immigrants threatens to divide the United States into two cultures, because unlike past immigrant groups, Mexicans and other Latinos have not assimilated into mainstream U.S. culture, forming instead their own political and linguistic enclaves—from Los Angeles to Miami? Hispanic youth have an underclass culture with high school dropout rates, teen birth rates and crime rates, and there seems to be no upward trend from one generation to the next." -- So far, I do not see this as a threat at all. Miami has been basically a Cuban city for a looooong time, and those Cubans are staunchly pro-American and for the most part good old Republicans. High school dropouts? Slightly better than Black dropout rates. That's an issue of economics, not of culture. Poverty is color blind.

"Antonio Villaraigosa" -- what about him?

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Originally Posted by Adrian II

None at all, Sir. That's why yall is asking. :wink:

Actually I was wondering particularly about the language, though of course culture and politics have a role in this. Particularly with regard to Hispanic immigration.

I read more and more articles about confrontations in the small columns of U.S. newspapers. Like the Equal Opportunities Commission suing the Salvation Army for firing clerks who refuse to learn or speak English. Or about Spanish schools financed by Mexico on U.S. territory where all books written by 'whites' are banned. Or Arizona schools that teach 'Raza Programs' and use textbooks that are anti-white and advocate erasing the U.S.-Mexican border and a Hispanic 'take-over' of the American South-West.

Another issue is immigration law. Most Americans demand stricter immigration policies, particularly measures against illegal immigration from Mexico. Yet both McCain and Obama support giving legal status to millions of illegal immigrants (again) simply because they have to pander to Hispanic voters (dubbed the 'Hispanic hurdle').

Maybe Samuel Huntington is right that the inflow of Hispanic immigrants threatens to divide the United States into two cultures, because unlike past immigrant groups, Mexicans and other Latinos have not assimilated into mainstream U.S. culture, forming instead their own political and linguistic enclaves—from Los Angeles to Miami? Hispanic youth have an underclass culture with high school dropout rates, teen birth rates and crime rates, and there seems to be no upward trend from one generation to the next.

And is there not a marked difference between Latin American immigrants and previous immigrants in that the former, for the first time, stake historic claims to American territory? It is easy to see what this ethnic devision can lead to. Antonio Villaraigosa, anyone?

Just asking yall.

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Most of what you get from an outsiders perspective is alarmism. While their is a group within the Hispanic community which is really balls to the wall take our land back. You will find many of them are older people fueled by things such as Operation wetback and ethnic intimidation. While they do find followers in the poorest sections of the immigrant community. I find it is not so much an ethnic issue as one of Socio-economic standing. As the middle and upper class mexicans are usually fully assimilated Americans. An example is the Rio Grande Valley in Texas a place which is 90% mexican if not more. It is alarming how many of these people DONT speak a lick of Spanish. The reason being? there is no "upper" white class to rebel against. Many little Mexican girls now clamor for hannah Montana and many little Mexican boys now clamor for the cowboys. So as far as Im concerned Mr.Hunington can shove it.

Mark my words in 20 years Blacks will still be the most ostracized group in America

PS I know this was hard to follow so feel free to ask more! I really want to give people the truth

PPS Did you ever fry the turkery?

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

Most of what you get from an outsiders perspective is alarmism.

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I know that from reading all the stories about Europe turning into 'Eurabia'. I deliberately chose Huntington because he wrote similar crap about my continent. But my original question had more to do with cultural issues, not possible Mexican take-overs or revolts or whatever H. is on about. Is the U.S. going to be a different country or not. Most seem to think it isn't.

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PPS Did you ever fry the turkery?

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The sucker never made it to the frying pan. I decided that following your lead and doing this is my backyard would be irresponsible with many small kids around. But one day I will.

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Originally Posted by Adrian II

Maybe Samuel Huntington is right that the inflow of Hispanic immigrants threatens to divide the United States into two cultures, because unlike past immigrant groups, Mexicans and other Latinos have not assimilated into mainstream U.S. culture, forming instead their own political and linguistic enclaves—from Los Angeles to Miami? Hispanic youth have an underclass culture with high school dropout rates, teen birth rates and crime rates, and there seems to be no upward trend from one generation to the next.

And is there not a marked difference between Latin American immigrants and previous immigrants in that the former, for the first time, stake historic claims to American territory? It is easy to see what this ethnic devision can lead to. Antonio Villaraigosa, anyone?

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This post highlights the major issues that I have with current immigration policies. I'm no bigot - I think Hispanics are great; They tend to be Catholic, they speak a Romance language, they have inexorable ties to Europe and a lively culture.

I don't care if 90% of the nation is hispanic or if we all speak Spanish - as long as the cultural values of freedom, education and safety are respected. I'm an Irish American - English is the language that I speak because I have to, but 2 languages that pull in different directions will lead to division rather than the melting pot.

We need to have some sense about this issue.

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I don't care if 90% of the nation is hispanic or if we all speak Spanish

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Your country does care. It won't be good for the American pride.

The integration of more Latinos into the US’s melting pot is ok with me as long as we as a nation can give them a proper and realistic path to citizenship and that they learn the language. In the US the language of success, as they call it, is definitely English and I have encountered it many times where someone is unable to communicate and it affects many other people whether in line at the shopping center or in a classroom.

It has been my experience that most Latinos are religious (Christian/catholic) and have strong family values, a welcome addition to my neighborhood. Their quality of living/poverty level is concerning to me as many of them have arrived illegally they are not eligible for some good jobs and education that others have available to them causing them to resort to criminal activities*. Without being able to be a strong earner they can also cause the rest of the family to “carry” them, effectively bringing the entire family down or at least minimizing the family’s social standing growth, possibility keeping them in a poor area that breeds crime and ignorance.

It may not seem like a big deal but a person or two extra to care for, especially if they are young, old or criminal, can really factor into a families dynamic and how they are treated within their community.

I welcome my spicy southern friends but please obey the laws and learn to communicate with me so we can build a friendship. ~:cheers:


*IIRC 20% of Michigan’s Prison population is made up of illegal Latinos.

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Originally Posted by Adrian II

I know that from reading all the stories about Europe turning into 'Eurabia'. I deliberately chose Huntington because he wrote similar crap about my continent. But my original question had more to do with cultural issues, not possible Mexican take-overs or revolts or whatever H. is on about. Is the U.S. going to be a different country or not. Most seem to think it isn't.The sucker never made it to the frying pan. I decided that following your lead and doing this is my backyard would be irresponsible with many small kids around. But one day I will.

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Texas and California seem to be doing alright so yes I honestly believe the USA will not change very much if at all in the realm of culture. I would also like to point out on the whole Mexican and American culture isnt that different from each other as Tuff Stuff seems to think

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

Texas and California seem to be doing alright so yes I honestly believe the USA will not change very much if at all in the realm of culture. I would also like to point out on the whole Mexican and American culture isnt that different from each other as Tuff Stuff seems to think

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What? I think that they are very similar in many ways and I like Hispanics. Where did I suggest that we were somehow so totally different?

Ugh. Our country administrated by mexicans or africans. Ugh.

My city started going downhill when the first black mayor was elected. The more black people given managerial and administrative positions, the worse things have gotten. Crime is amazingly high, education is terrible, corruption is rampent, and the quality of basic services has fallen... like a little Zimbabwe.

Theres another opinion for ya Adrian.

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Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger

Ugh. Our country administrated by mexicans or africans. Ugh.

My city started going downhill when the first black mayor was elected. The more black people given managerial and administrative positions, the worse things have gotten. Crime is amazingly high, education is terrible, corruption is rampent, and the quality of basic services has fallen... like a little Zimbabwe.

Theres another opinion for ya Adrian.

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Africans? Blacks are more American than most Whites.

I'd like someone to explain to me what's so sacred about the friggin english language. The ones with the loudest mouths about english being sacred seem to be immigrants who learned it well enough and think that's the be all and end all of citizenship and anyone who doesn't bother must be some disrespectful cultural parasite.

I like english, it sounds pretty to me, and it seems to have a sort of precision to it lacking in other languages. But I feel this way maybe because I have never ever bothered to learn another language so I have nothing to even compare to.

I say screw it, let the best or most overwhelming tongue win.

:2thumbsup:

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Blacks are more American than most Whites.

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Great logic.

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I'd like someone to explain to me what's so sacred about the friggin english language.

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I'll take a stab at it. The English Language is commonly embraced in the United States because many of the immigrants to the United States are from Britain or Ireland. There are large groups of Russians, Italians, Germans, etc. but for the most part they knew or learned the English Language. As such, with continued Latino immigration (in many cases illegal), they fail to learn English either through ineptitude or apathy. Some do learn English, some don't. So in order to accommodate (illegal) Latinos, we must start learning Spanish. This has spread from construction and manual labor to include telemarketers and schools. Schools especially, where public teachers and principals need to learn Spanish to speak to students and parents. Waste of time and money, ensuring that someone well qualified also be bilingual. It's also a safety issue, where illegal immigrants cannot understand instructions in the event of a catastrophe.

I wouldn't have a problem with it, if there was a large Spanish population already, but the recent influx and stubbornness is frustrating.
While like Polish immigrants speaking Polish to their children, the immigrants learned English, or their children learned both, and the grandchildren learned only English. However, due to the large amount of Latino immigrants and the strong family values, they can speak in Spanish to parents, neighbors, etc. without needing to learn English.

I don't really have a problem with it now, after seeing all the safety instructions the Italians have to put up for the Brits, French, and Germans. America has it easy.

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If you are under 70 you speak english no matter what you're standing in life.

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I've worked with immigrants near the Canadian border who are well under 70 and don't speak English.

I view English as important only as a unifying device - so that all people of this country can communicate with one another, so we don't need interpreters to talk to other citizens. And all the more practical advantages.

CR

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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

I've worked with immigrants near the Canadian border who are well under 70 and don't speak English.

I view English as important only as a unifying device - so that all people of this country can communicate with one another, so we don't need interpreters to talk to other citizens. And all the more practical advantages.

CR

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Maybe its the unique position of San Antonio A city which prides itself on being the center of Mexican Tejano German Czech and Polish culture in South Texas. As much as I like espouse my city its probably not that. Many immigrants who go that far north have no intentions to stay here. For all the alarmism thats out their. The fact is many migrants return home. And none are really concerned with La Raza. I speak from a unique position many immigrants who settled in Texas are now in the 2nd 3rd and 4th generations. Hell some mexicans were here before I was. I suspect that is the difference the fact that many down here started life here. Mexicans are just the same as all who came before them but with better food and better women (barring the Italians on both counts)

"Cablinasian" : (Caucasian (German), Black(Ivorian), (Am.)Indian, Asian(Thai)). That's how this mixed-heritage guy lists his 'race'.

https://jimcee.homestead.com/tiger-woods-picture-1.jpg

And I don't mind one bit. It is the face of america. In fact, given the shadowy provenance of my mother's side of the family, I feel I can say with an 80% degree of certainty: I too am Cablinasian; translation: "American".

Language? In my opinion, english should be taught in schools, as a pupil-survival tactic at minimum (because the country at-large communicates in it, and likely will for several more generations), and advanced literature for those interested. Many new immigrants learn only rudimentary english, but most encourage their children to become fluent. Every day I deal with "only ten words of english" people with my "only 20 words of spanish" background - we either make ourselves understood with our limited vocabularies and sign language, or: grab a kid. Almost any kid will do, age 5 and up. They clear up any misunderstandings. That's my preferred solution: fall back on the resiliance and adaptability of the young.

Besides, the 'english' spoken here is a far cry from that spoken in England. Demanding it be canonized as an official language here is just silly, and would create another huge boondoggle of a Ministry of Language to enforce any such decree, which we down here in the trenches would ignore, breeding disrespect for law and regulation, and you know where I think that leads...

Affirmative Action? I personally didn't think we, as a nation were quite done yet with that program and its goals (I thought it needed one more 20-year generation), but the people/voters of both my state of birth (Michigan) and state of current residence (California) decided that we were (done). So I grudgingly accept that.

I think we all think pretty much the same thing..well besides PJ but he is the son of immigrants so he could just be adjusting :smile:

Yes, I wouldn't be surprised if part of the fact was that they were migrant workers.

CR

This thread wasn't about race in the first place, and it shouldn't be, okay guys?

I am amazed at the apparent ease with which some Americans are prepared to do away with English as the leading language, if pushed. This while the rest of the world is busy learning English because it is the lingua franca of business and communication, and will be for a long time. It also seems as if they don't care much for the historic and cultural baggage that comes with the English language, as if the two could somehow be neatly separated.

Where are those who normally post about Aztlan and the threat to America from the hispanics taking over and making you speak Spanish ?:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

I think we all think pretty much the same thing..well besides PJ but he is the son of immigrants so he could just be adjusting :smile:

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Err.. I only question their ability to administrate. I'm not sure how abreast you keep yourself of the state of Mexican governance, but I wouldn't call it ideal. Also, my personal experience with black leadership is echoed in countless communities throughout America, including many large cities.

They say this country was built by immigrants of every flavor. That is only correct if you are using the literal meaning of built. This country was planned, engineered, and managed by white Europeans - and it's worked out pretty well for us so far. I'm not sure if many people realize how fragile, intricate and subtle our structure is, or how easily a nation can descend into disarray. Happens all the time, and America is not as special as some think.

I, for one, welcome our new colorful overlords; I just hope they work within our system.

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Yes, I wouldn't be surprised if part of the fact was that they were migrant workers.

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Indeed. The real estate opportunities in America are extremely lucrative. My poor mother was forced to learn English to survive at the country club. :drama1:

As long as English survives. :book:

Another reason to teach English as a language in schools, is because most schools abroad teach it as a Second language (Unless theres a significant minority/near to majority ethnic group, like some places in eastern europe with Russians, and various "colonial islands" like tahiti teach French) and its just useful.

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Originally Posted by Adrian II

This thread wasn't about race in the first place, and it shouldn't be, okay guys?

I am amazed at the apparent ease with which some Americans are prepared to do away with English as the leading language, if pushed. This while the rest of the world is busy learning English because it is the lingua franca of business and communication, and will be for a long time. It also seems as if they don't care much for the historic and cultural baggage that comes with the English language, as if the two could somehow be neatly separated.

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I don't see English being replaced as the "official language" in the US anytime soon. When dealing with government agencies, banks, public schools, most businesses etc... those that control/administrate these institutions speak English. The system "works", so where would be the incentive for rapid change? Language does evolve over time, and different cultures can and will add to the US version of English as they have in the past, but the process is a slow one.

The "classical" Spanish I learned in high-school is very different from the Hispanic "street language" spoken in the prisons I have worked. So when the "experts" in this article allude to Spanish or Hispanic language I wonder which particular dialect they are referring to?

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Originally Posted by Hosakawa Tito

So when the "experts" in this article allude to Spanish or Hispanic language I wonder which particular dialect they are referring to?

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All I know is that Huntington sure ain't street-wise. :laugh4:

Uhm, on the "importance" of the english language, if you say it is wrong to impose english on immigrants, then isn't it wrong as well if the immigrants impose spanish on the natives?
And aren't the immigrants the ones who come to reap the benefits of the natives? Wouldn't it be a show of courtesy and thankfulness to learn the language of the natives in orrder to communicate with them?

I think failing at that or not even wanting it is a show of arrogance, when you come to another country as a guest, you behave like a guest and show courtesy and do not bend the other country to your will and if you are coming illegally you're pretty much an ******* in the first place which does not mean there are no ******* among the natives as well.

The chosen language of those we would call natives in the US now (whose forefathers may have been invaders but I do not blame their children for that) is american and if I went to America to live there I would learn american to talk to Americans and if I went to Mexico to live there I would learn mexican to speak to the natives and if a Mexican goes to America he should learn american or else I will just think he's an arrogant prick, just like I'd be an arrogant prick if I went to America and kept speaking german to Americans. :dizzy2:

*if you can say America to the United States of America, I suppose you can say american to their language and once you are there you can also say mexican to the language the Mexicans speak

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Originally Posted by Husar

Uhm, on the "importance" of the english language, if you say it is wrong to impose english on immigrants, then isn't it wrong as well if the immigrants impose spanish on the natives?
And aren't the immigrants the ones who come to reap the benefits of the natives? Wouldn't it be a show of courtesy and thankfulness to learn the language of the natives in orrder to communicate with them?...

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Nobody is imposing Spanish on the natives. As far as not requiring immigrants to learn English, this is a matter of principle: we are a free country in every sense of the word and we take this freedom very-very seriously. We will not violate our principles just so that Jack Anglosaxon feels better about himself. The truth is, most immigrants will learn English as a necessity for survival. Those who don't learn but still manage to survive? Well, kudos to them, they beat the system. As for those who do not learn and can't survive....well, they die and that is quite okay with me. There is very little reason to enforce English by law, as it enforces itself via pure economic necessity.

Let me give you an example: for about 2 years or so I hired this team of mexican guys to do landscaping work for me. Out of 5 guys only 1 spoke English, and he was the head honcho of that group. The remaining 4 guys managed to get by without learning a word of English. Now, *who am I to tell them to learn it when they clearly do not *need* it to survive?

Now, when getting U.S. citizenship one must demonstrate the knowledge of English and U.S. history and that's great. Citizenship is serious business, but if some mexicans came here to make a buck and they can do it without speaking English, it does not bother me one bit.

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Originally Posted by rvg

Nobody is imposing Spanish on the natives. As far as not requiring immigrants to learn English, this is a matter of principle: we are a free country in every sense of the word and we take this freedom very-very seriously. We will not violate our principles just so that Jack Anglosaxon feels better about himself. The truth is, most immigrants will learn English as a necessity for survival. Those who don't learn but still manage to survive? Well, kudos to them, they beat the system. As for those who do not learn and can't survive....well, they die and that is quite okay with me. There is very little reason to enforce English by law, as it enforces itself via pure economic necessity.

Let me give you an example: for about 2 years or so I hired this team of mexican guys to do landscaping work for me. Out of 5 guys only 1 spoke English, and he was the head honcho of that group. The remaining 4 guys managed to get by without learning a word of English. Now, *who am I to tell them to learn it when they clearly do not *need* it to survive?

Now, when getting U.S. citizenship one must demonstrate the knowledge of English and U.S. history and that's great. Citizenship is serious business, but if some mexicans came here to make a buck and they can do it without speaking English, it does not bother me one bit.

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There is more to life than just surviving. These landscapers probably didn’t make squat had no benefits and have little chance of getting a real job and becoming a productive member of society without being able to communicate.

My Bosnian neighbor struggled with the language but his wife caught on fast. She was able to get a nice office job with AC in the summer and heat in the winter, benefits, vacations, etc. he was barley able to hold a job in a factory with the constant threat of layoffs and no temp control or benefits. Eventually he was able to get a better job but he use to joke with me about the most important things for him about America were learning the language and visiting the dentist (he had bad teeth and no dentist back in Bosnia).

Language is important unless you want to be 1 of 4 landscapers that probably live like crap. Personally I don’t want any of my fellow citizens to have to live like a slave to honcho and be stuck doing low paying manual labor until they grow old and die at 40 leaving their kids in poverty.

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we are a free country in every sense of the word

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that part made me laugh! :laugh4:

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Originally Posted by rvg

Nobody is imposing Spanish on the natives. As far as not requiring immigrants to learn English, this is a matter of principle: we are a free country in every sense of the word and we take this freedom very-very seriously. We will not violate our principles just so that Jack Anglosaxon feels better about himself. The truth is, most immigrants will learn English as a necessity for survival. Those who don't learn but still manage to survive? Well, kudos to them, they beat the system. As for those who do not learn and can't survive....well, they die and that is quite okay with me. There is very little reason to enforce English by law, as it enforces itself via pure economic necessity.

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:dizzy2:

You don't seem to like "the system", does "the system" also take this freedom very-very seriously and who established 2the system" and why would free people need a "the system"?
Your thoughts about survival are very lovely as well, I may have called some people arrogant pricks but that does not mean it would be okay with me to see them suffer greatly or die. :dizzy2:

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Originally Posted by Husar

:dizzy2:

You don't seem to like "the system", does "the system" also take this freedom very-very seriously and who established 2the system" and why would free people need a "the system"?
Your thoughts about survival are very lovely as well, I may have called some people arrogant pricks but that does not mean it would be okay with me to see them suffer greatly or die. :dizzy2:

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Like the system? No, I don't like the system, I *love* it. It is absolutely the best system in the world. Youre free to do whatever you want and nobody will force you to do anything. Wanna eat? Well, work. Don't wanna work? Then die, that's fine by me, as it is your choice. And no, it does not bother me one bit that someone dies due to their own refusal to work/learn/succeed. Not my problem. America guarantees the equality of *opportunity*, if somebody does not make anything out of their opportunity, it won't make me lose any sleep. Life, Liberty and *Pursuit* of Happiness. Nobody guarantees happiness, only the *pursuit* of it. If you do not pursue it, then you deserve whatever lot your life has thrown at you.

*cough*

https://i250.photobucket.com/albums/...yinthehell.jpg

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Originally Posted by rvg

Youre free to do whatever you want

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~:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff

This post highlights the major issues that I have with current immigration policies. I'm no bigot - I think Hispanics are great; They tend to be Catholic, they speak a Romance language, they have inexorable ties to Europe and a lively culture.

I don't care if 90% of the nation is hispanic or if we all speak Spanish - as long as the cultural values of freedom, education and safety are respected. I'm an Irish American - English is the language that I speak because I have to, but 2 languages that pull in different directions will lead to division rather than the melting pot.

We need to have some sense about this issue.

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It's possible to have 2 languages (one mostly latin and the other mostly Germanic) live side by side. Canada manages. But we have a large native population of both English and French speakers. And many can go most of their life never having to use both.

The melting pot is a bad idea anyway. :yes:

Coming from a nation that discusses secession every 5 years...

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Originally Posted by Viking

~:rolleyes:

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Why? You have evidence to dispute my claim? Let me re-iterate: you are free to do whatever you want. That is a fact. You can say whatever you want, you can worship whatever you want, you can hate whomever you want, you can succeed, or you can throw your life away. All that Uncle Sam asks is that you do not break the law. When it comes to liberty, America is head and shoulders above everyone else on this entire damn planet. Nobody comes close. Nobody.

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Originally Posted by rvg

All that Uncle Sam asks is that you do not break the law.

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Which is what other countries ask their populations to do also. What makes the laws right? Hasn't the law changed up through the years? What used to be illegal is now legal, and perhaps vice versa. You're taking the stance that the U.S. laws contains The absolute truth™ and are not amendable.

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You can say whatever you want, you can worship whatever you want, you can hate whomever you want, you can succeed, or you can throw your life away.

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Holds true for the entire West. Tell me something I can do in the U.S. that I cannot do in, for instance, my home country, the UK or France.

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Originally Posted by Viking

Holds true for the entire West. Tell me something I can do in the U.S. that I cannot do in, for instance, my home country, the UK or France.

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Oh, that's easy. You can deny the Holocaust and join the nazi party. You can own firearms. You can rent and watch "A Clockwork Orange" (banned in the UK), you can listen to Cannibal Corpse (banned in Germany), you can play Leisure Suite Larry on your PC (banned in Australia). The list goes on and on.

When it comes to freedom, *we* are numero UNO.

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Tell me something I can do in the U.S. that I cannot do in, for instance, my home country, the UK or France.

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Thats easy , you cannot eat beef full of certain growth hormones , that is because your country like all others isn't as great as the US
Oh and in your country it is quite probable that you would not be able to make a statement that yours is the bestest most brilliantest ever country ever on this whole planet without people laughing uncontrollably at such arrogance and stupidity

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Originally Posted by rvg

You can deny the Holocaust and join the nazi party. You can own firearms. You can rent and watch "A Clockwork Orange" (banned in the UK), you can listen to Cannibal Corpse (banned in Germany), you can play Leisure Suite Larry on your PC (banned in Australia). The list goes on and on.

When it comes to freedom, *we* are numero UNO.

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Are there no games, videos, music or other media that's banned in the U.S? Talking about the utterly crazy stuff.

Oh, and I must add, in this country you're free of being indoctrinated of 'sexual abstinence' on public schools. The choice is that of the students themselves and themselves only, as the education says; but surely, not having a state telling what's morally right is not freedom. :clown:

As for your list, I'm not so sure about the nazi party, but the rest should be legal in my own country.

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Oh, that's easy. You can deny the Holocaust and join the nazi party. You can own firearms. You can rent and watch "A Clockwork Orange" (banned in the UK), you can listen to Cannibal Corpse (banned in Germany), you can play Leisure Suite Larry on your PC (banned in Australia). The list goes on and on.

When it comes to freedom, *we* are numero UNO.

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What a pile of crap .
Since when was Clockwork Orange banned in the UK ?
Neither British film versions were banned , the book was never banned or censored
The book was however censored in the US of A until 1986 and an American company banned its own film versions distribution in the UK .
The land of freedom where the country gets into a hissy fit and and media companies are running from federal law suits because some singer showed a bit of nipple for a few seconds:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

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Originally Posted by Viking

Are there no games, videos, music or other media that's banned in the U.S? Talking about the utterly crazy stuff.

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You heard me. *Nothing* is banned. Crazy stuff of course won't be sold to minors, but that's it. Adults are free to get whatever. As far as abstinence goes, it's just one of many types of sex ed going on in U.S. schools. Varies alot state by state.

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

The land of freedom where the country gets into a hissy fit and and media companies are running from federal law suits because some singer showed a bit of nipple for a few seconds:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

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And rightfully so there's a place for nudity and regular TV isn't it. There plenty of channels that will let you get your freak on, but prime time TV is not the place. America has a place for everything. Wanna bang hookers all day? Go to Nevada. Wanna smoke dope? Go to Cali and tell the first doctor that you're suffering depression from the death of your goldfish. Smoke away. Your freedom to do questionable stuff should not interfere with *my* freedom of being protected from that stuff. When my daughter watches TV I *expect* those channels to be squeaky clean both in terms of language and skin. What happened to Ms Jackson provoked a "hissy fit" not because of her nipple, but because a principle has been violated. Around here, principles matter. Alot. try more smilies next time. Maybe it'll help you make a better point.

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Originally Posted by rvg

You heard me. *Nothing* is banned. Crazy stuff of course won't be sold to minors, but that's it. Adults are free to get whatever. As far as abstinence goes, it's just one of many types of sex ed going on in U.S. schools. Varies alot state by state.

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things might not bet banned by law but companies assure that the more...."extreme" stuff doesn´t make it to the market place.....it might not be the law but the practical effect is the same.

I suggest you watch a documentary called "this movie is not yet rated"....which deals with the behavior of the American movie ratings board and how it basically "bans" some movies from getting a theatrical showing by slapping it with an NC-17 code....no standards are defined for the attribution of this level...and the jury members identities remain secret...very free indeed.....the entire documentary is available for free on Google Video...I suggest you take a look.

as far as free goes....I´ll just say that in my country the elected president is always the person that wins the popular vote of the entire people....unlike some examples I could think off....*cough*electoral college*cough* :juggle2:

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Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff

Coming from a nation that discusses secession every 5 years...

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Actually it's always discussed in that one province. But it's never been the majority opinion. Much like what SFTS said about the Anglo hostility of older generations of Mexican-Americans. Sucession is the opinion of the older generation of French Quebequois.

Gentlemen: let's do a little less prideful chest-beating and america-bashing, and more discussion of the implications of the US's changing demographic - the original topic.

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Originally Posted by Ronin

things might not bet banned by law but companies assure that the more...."extreme" stuff doesn´t make it to the market place.....it might not be the law but the practical effect is the same.

I suggest you watch a documentary called "this movie is not yet rated"....which deals with the behavior of the American movie ratings board and how it basically "bans" some movies from getting a theatrical showing by slapping it with an NC-17 code....no standards are defined for the attribution of this level...and the jury members identities remain secret...very free indeed.....the entire documentary is available for free on Google Video...I suggest you take a look.

as far as free goes....I´ll just say that in my country the elected president is always the person that wins the popular vote of the entire people....unlike some examples I could think off....*cough*electoral college*cough* :juggle2:

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Yeah-yeah, go ahead and make fun of the Electoral College. We deserve it. I never said our system was perfect tho. Just beter than anything else out there.

As for the NC-17 rating, it cuts the minors off the movie audience list, but the movie is still available to play in theaters and for rentals. It is not a bad in any way, shape or form.

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Originally Posted by rvg

And rightfully so there's a place for nudity and regular TV isn't it. There plenty of channels that will let you get your freak on, but prime time TV is not the place. America has a place for everything. Wanna bang hookers all day? Go to Nevada. Wanna smoke dope? Go to Cali and tell the first doctor that you're suffering depression from the death of your goldfish. Smoke away. Your freedom to do questionable stuff should not interfere with *my* freedom of being protected from that stuff. When my daughter watches TV I *expect* those channels to be squeaky clean both in terms of language and skin. What happened to Ms Jackson provoked a "hissy fit" not because of her nipple, but because a principle has been violated. Around here, principles matter. Alot. try more smilies next time. Maybe it'll help you make a better point.

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so you're free to smoke weed....but you have to lie and fake a medical condition to get your hands on it legally....

...freedom is ok....but if a boob....you remember those...they are a normal part of the human anatomy is shown on tv for half a second on a totally accidental and non-sexual event the entire country goes bananas....


I´m sorry but there´s defending principles and then there´s just simple hypocrisy.....

when the Janet Jackson debacle happened I was so surprised by the level of outrage that I looked for the footage mediately....judging by the level of the outcry I was expecting Justin to bend her over a chair and do her doggy-style.....I was somewhat disappointed by what actually transpired.....the second time I saw it...because the first time I blinked and missed it. :laugh4: :inquisitive:

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Originally Posted by rvg

Yeah-yeah, go ahead and make fun of the Electoral College. We deserve it. I never said our system was perfect tho. Just beter than anything else out there.

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errr...? :dizzy2: direct election anyone?...you know...one man...one vote...you count them and whoever has more wins....seems to work fine over here.

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Originally Posted by KukriKhan

Gentlemen: let's do a little less prideful chest-beating and america-bashing, and more discussion of the implications of the US's changing demographic - the original topic.

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very well....

American is a melting pot from people from all over the world....so this should be a problem.....it´s a long term and natural progress....it´s not like something said that whites would stop being the majority like tomorrow *gasp*horror* :laugh4:

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Gentlemen: let's do a little less prideful chest-beating and america-bashing, and more discussion of the implications of the US's changing demographic - the original topic.

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Oh come on Kukri , is it right to not allow people to rip the piss out of that nonsense rvg posted once its been entered into the discussion
It isn't america bashing anyway , its just bashing the rather silly views of one american .

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

Oh come on Kukri , is it right to not allow people to rip the piss out of that nonsense rvg posted once its been entered into the discussion
It isn't america bashing anyway , its just bashing the rather silly views of one american .

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So far you have provided nothing to contradict my views i.e. showing just one nation that does freedom better than we do.

Arguing the superiority or inferiority of comparative governmental and cultural systems (and their boosters) is another topic. Not this one.

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Originally Posted by KukriKhan

Arguing the superiority or inferiority of comparative governmental and cultural systems (and their boosters) is another topic. Not this one.

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Fine, fine. Back to topic....White people getting outnumbered? Big deal. Most will not care and rightfully so.

Perhaps we can start a new thread where we discuss the greatest attribute of Americans. It is of course our…

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Modesty :pleased:

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Originally Posted by Adrian II

I am amazed at the apparent ease with which some Americans are prepared to do away with English as the leading language, if pushed. This while the rest of the world is busy learning English because it is the lingua franca of business and communication, and will be for a long time. It also seems as if they don't care much for the historic and cultural baggage that comes with the English language, as if the two could somehow be neatly separated.

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I don't think it's so much a willingness to do away with English, as much as it is a confidence that English doesn't really need protecting. English remains the prime language of literature, education, business, commerce, broadcast, etc. in this country after all these years and all these influences from other cultures, in spite of never being made the nation's official language and never having a government ministry established to regulate it. Similarly to other posters, I've noticed that while many from the first generation of immigrants fail to learn English, it's rare for those of subsequent generations to do the same, and children are often the most available and reliable interpreters when dealing with their parents. English is the language of opportunity, and most people want more access to money, entertainment, education, or whatnot, so there's a strong motivation to learn English in this country without official endorsement. The fact that the rest of the world is busy learning English as a second language just offers one more reason to trust the language to survive on its own.

It also helps that it has a tradition as a very adaptable language, from its fusion of Anglo-Saxon, Norse, and French back in the day to all the influence of languages from around the world now. In the cases where Spanish has a word for something English does not or has a cooler word for something English does, English simply adopts the Spanish term and carries on. I think a more highly regulated language would likely resist such adoption and prove less survivable in the long run.

Also, there's no reason to think that English is inherently superior to Spanish, nor that culture and ethnicity are necessarily tied to language. At least ideally, America is all about freedom and competition, and if the Spanish language were to prove itself superior to English, well then it has both the opportunity to do so, and also the requirement to win us all over to its use. Short of that, there's also nothing wrong with a country having more than one principal language, and the US population could afford to be more multilingual.

Ajax

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Originally Posted by yesdachi

There is more to life than just surviving. These landscapers probably didn’t make squat had no benefits and have little chance of getting a real job and becoming a productive member of society without being able to communicate.

My Bosnian neighbor struggled with the language but his wife caught on fast. She was able to get a nice office job with AC in the summer and heat in the winter, benefits, vacations, etc. he was barley able to hold a job in a factory with the constant threat of layoffs and no temp control or benefits. Eventually he was able to get a better job but he use to joke with me about the most important things for him about America were learning the language and visiting the dentist (he had bad teeth and no dentist back in Bosnia).

Language is important unless you want to be 1 of 4 landscapers that probably live like crap. Personally I don’t want any of my fellow citizens to have to live like a slave to honcho and be stuck doing low paying manual labor until they grow old and die at 40 leaving their kids in poverty.

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That is absolutely true. However the hardship that they experience due to their deficiency in English is not my problem and none of my concern. If they want substandard living, they are free to have it. If they want to improve their lot in life, they are free to do so. I do not see however why in the world the people and much less the government should compel them to excel. I say leave them be and let them decide what is best for them.

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Originally Posted by Adrian II

This thread wasn't about race in the first place, and it shouldn't be, okay guys?

I am amazed at the apparent ease with which some Americans are prepared to do away with English as the leading language, if pushed. This while the rest of the world is busy learning English because it is the lingua franca of business and communication, and will be for a long time. It also seems as if they don't care much for the historic and cultural baggage that comes with the English language, as if the two could somehow be neatly separated.

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Because we know it really wont go away. We are seeing these peoples cultrual habits change before our very eyes

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Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger

Err.. I only question their ability to administrate. I'm not sure how abreast you keep yourself of the state of Mexican governance, but I wouldn't call it ideal. Also, my personal experience with black leadership is echoed in countless communities throughout America, including many large cities.

They say this country was built by immigrants of every flavor. That is only correct if you are using the literal meaning of built. This country was planned, engineered, and managed by white Europeans - and it's worked out pretty well for us so far. I'm not sure if many people realize how fragile, intricate and subtle our structure is, or how easily a nation can descend into disarray. Happens all the time, and America is not as special as some think.

I, for one, welcome our new colorful overlords; I just hope they work within our system.

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I have the utmost confidence in smart men and their ability to administrate. I believe America is special. I believe the reason we are at the top of the food chain today is becuase people escaped oppersion in thier lands and came to ours determined to make something of themselves and just becuase todays immigrants are brown does not mean their mindset is any different. America is not Europe there immigrants are different than ours. their entire suituation is different. So to say America is just a European nation across the pond is a fallacy we are better than them:beam:

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

I have the utmost confidence in smart men and their ability to administrate. I believe America is special. I believe the reason we are at the top of the food chain today is becuase people escaped oppersion in thier lands and came to ours determined to make something of themselves and just becuase todays immigrants are brown does not mean their mindset is any different. America is not Europe there immigrants are different than ours. their entire suituation is different. So to say America is just a European nation across the pond is a fallacy we are better than them:beam:

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/amen

Now, is there a problem with Hispanos being more than US? Is there a kind of pride that doesnt make you tolerate them?

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Originally Posted by Caius

Now, is there a problem with Hispanos being more than US? Is there a kind of pride that doesnt make you tolerate them?

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Have you sir read the thread? :inquisitive:

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

I have the utmost confidence in smart men and their ability to administrate. I believe America is special. I believe the reason we are at the top of the food chain today is becuase people escaped oppersion in thier lands and came to ours determined to make something of themselves and just becuase todays immigrants are brown does not mean their mindset is any different. America is not Europe there immigrants are different than ours. their entire suituation is different. So to say America is just a European nation across the pond is a fallacy we are better than them:beam:

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Close this thread.

FOR AMERICA.

and texas.