Printable View
Hmmm, am I smelling something or is it just me... I think it's the smell of the thread being closed due to Ibrahim's last comment. Please people, don't even mention anything in the likes of LS or balloons either.
Sorry guys, I just couldn't help it.
Maion
(Edit by bovi: This was in response to a post here)
sorry-my bad. no harm was intended out of it:shame:Quote:
Originally Posted by Maion Maroneios
It's not me who was offended by it, I was just being sarcastic about the fact that all these stuff tend to lead to thread locking very very quickly lately.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibrahim
Maion
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maion Maroneios
well, not really. he didn't really say anything that would cause this thread to be closed. you're the one who brought up balloons and LS. and I've seen more often than not, that once someone starts talking about the thread getting closed, it gets closed.
Balloons are in general okay. In that other thread the discussion was not friendly, and also it spammed a serious topic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maion Maroneios
I understand that discussions involving balloons, LS or the like must be very irritating to see all the time bovi, it's just that sometimes I believe you are a little too strict. Not just you, but the rest of the moderators too. But that's me, of course. I mean, even in the most serious of discussions there is room for humor or off-topic comments!
Maion
You're free to think so. I have seen the state of the forums before the mass of spamming came, the state when it came and was not moderated, and the state after it was moderated. I much prefer the former state, however I'll settle for the latter when that is no longer possible.
Scores in that thread before I took affair:
Posts about steppe warrior pictures - 8
Woot - 1
Balloons - 13
Other - 2
Okay, I forgot one post somewhere, so I guess you can chalk one more up for on-topic if you like. Do you see the trend?
Edit: Anyway, as this is way off-topic, we can take any further discussion over PM.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bovi
so what was the forum like before the "mass spamming" came. was everthing "enlightened conversation" and what are those statistics about??
If you want to see how it was like before the spamming, you should just check the early history of this forum by going back to the erliest threads. For me, this forum has 240 pages. You might have different settings on, but this forums is still pretty sizable. Beleive me, [bovi[/B] is right. I have seen that trend myself as I was reading the past threads, starting from threads #1. I have actually seen threads whose only purpose was spam and nothing else. Most of the threads during that "middle phase" degenerated into spam, and I have even seen the EB team members join the spamfestQuote:
Originally Posted by Pontius Pilate
Check this thread out:https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=93993. The thread starts out badly disguised as spam, but eventually, the people participating in it simply post SPAM in all caps and various fonts just for the sake of spam and increasing the number of posts they have. Even Tellos Athenaios and bovi participated in spamming.
Or this: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=56169
As for those statistics, I believe they came from the "Pictures of Steppe Warriors" thread: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=109741, that came very close to being locked. The moderators of this forum are actually pretty nice as moderators go. They allow so many things that they could have just locked.
Well, it's true that some months ago, moderation was less harsh. See; closing of EB Tavern.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aemilius Paulus
the first two links I can see are totally spam, and that's what one would think when they hear the word spam. but I don't know how the "Pictures of Steppe Warriors" thread comes even close to those. So if a thread goes a little off topic, it is considered spam? Is there some way that you measure this? how much OT is too much OT? The threads nowadays may not be as "enlightened" as the old ones, but why do they all have to be considered spam? most of us are after all just people, and not scholars, so I don't know how "enlightened" our conversations can be.
Wow, wait a minute. When did I create a thread like this? Who did this, I wonder? Sure didn't like it, it's like violation of my privacy. A sincere :thumbsdown: to the one who did this, really.
Maion
bovi did. He closed the other thread but allowed this avenue of discussion to be continued by moving the associated posts to this thread.
Foot
I didn't want to continue any discussion. He could create a new thread of his own, not present me as someone who attacks the EB moderators because he believes things should be less strict. If I wanted to create a thread like this, I would have done so myself. Even a simple mention would be ok with me, but this... No. Plus, I didn't continue this back at the other thread.
Maion
This thread isn't about you. Other people thought it was a subject worth talking about. Yours was the first post that occured in the discussion. If you want to make a complaint PM bovi and ask him to change it.
Foot
I was hoping it would be obvious to him from the beginning. This thread may not be about me, but it says I'm the thread creator, which I don't like.
Maion
as I said, PM him about it.
Foot
I think that your position in the creation of this thread is quite clear to all now Maion.
Ideally, this thread would be closed and allowed to drop off the front page before a fresh and new discussion (which I note that Bovi and presumably Foot consider it necessary to have discussed) could be created that is clearer.
However this isn't all that practical, so I shall try to shove this onto topic and get this over and done with.
Moderation is a time consuming and thankless task that is necessary if there is a tendency (and there was- you can check the threads linked above, and those of equivalent date) to produce threads that are so far out from where the forum is intended to be that they are simply wasting server space.
On the other hand, overmoderation can stifle a forum and make it somewhere that people do not want to go.
Personally, I think that this place is the best place I have ever been for discussing the ancient world, and my posts have reflected that. But then it is also a forum dedicated specifically to a modification of a video game and so must reflect this more than anything.
It's not a nice subject. And I don't know if I have helped or hindered with this long winded post. But I would rather give room for its discussion here than let the situation topple wither toward total chaos or overmoderated death. Why? Because I like the place, shucks.
Has anyone noticed how the spam threads here are incredibly entertaining?
I loled all my way into, through and out of them. The first time I saw Bartix, months ago, I thought my head would fall from my shoulders.
To be precise, I thought the posts moved here had sufficiently derailed the thread they were in to warrant a split, so the original thread could continue in its purpose. I didn't close it and have no intention of it. I said that any further discussion could be taken by PM, it was disregarded (not by Maion) and a fair number of posts came in reply, so I moved the whole discussion here to a new thread as there was obviously a wish to discuss it and I do not want to censor it.
Maion's post was the first one to concern this, and the meaning of the rest would be lost without it as a reference. I also edited his post to reflect what I did. I don't know how I could possibly change the author of the first post.
I see. Well, you can continue this discussion as long as you want. I have no intention to do so myself, but I understand why this thread was created this way.
Maion
Well.... here is my take on it....
I have no issues with shutting down spam. As I don't see the funny side of them, they just annoy me. (I was about to say something about the balloon thing on the Steppes thread but bovi/foot got ahead of me)
if an intelligent conversation cannot be had then don't have it. it doesn't even have to be an attempt at scholarship, but the balloon nonsense is just too much! you guys are inventing a fictional system of patting yourselves on the back and group-hugging? please grow up or take it elsewhere. the reason the threads are closed is because it is a signal to STOP DOING IT - get a clue. NOTE the words spoken by Foot recently, something like "I don't know what this has to do with EB" - if it isn't about EB, we don't want your spam, thanks anyways, seriously thanks, but NO THANKS. You can have discussions on what defines spam all you want and how arbitrary we all judge it, but we don't need or want it here- this section of the forum is for our work and fans, concerning the work too - EB MOD (rather than us as the team), and if we allow off-topic discussion it is for the sake of worthwhile discussion of a related nature - the EB forum is NOT your social outlet and this is NOT group therapy. Life is not fair. I am very sure that you wouldn't start with this nonsense in a police-station or mental ward, because there are more severe consequences. Take your crazy somewhere else, we have enough already (and ON TOPIC!).
Actually, no thread has ever been closed due to balloons. Some have been closed due to clique behaviour though.
Would you mind showing me an example of a thread that got closed for that reason? I am a bit puzzled how that could happen on this forum. Unless of course you are talking about the past locked EB Taverns that were on these forums.Quote:
Originally Posted by bovi
BTW, why wasn't the EB Tavern created as a social group after the first Tavern thread was locked anyway? There were two EB Taverns (if not more) on this forum, right?
To tell you the truth, I thought this thread was going to be locked in two minutes after I saw it pop up, but just the fact that it is still open just shows how tolerant and "democratic" the moderators are.
Because the EB Tavern I was closed during a time of much spam. Then, when it cooled down a bit, Urnamma opened the Tavern II. Then, when spame rose again, it got closed again, which led to the creation of the social group (after some business in the Frontroom).Quote:
BTW, why wasn't the EB Tavern created as a social group after the first Tavern thread was locked anyway? There were two EB Taverns (if not more) on this forum, right
If you want to talk about off topic stuff you can always join the EB Tavern (social group). Not trying to advertise here but just saying.... if people know about it, it could reduce the amount of off topic threads and posts in the EB forums.
I want to talk of topic, that much is true, but the Tavern is waaaay off topic. Half of the time the stuff you guys talk(ed) about is just pure "blah, blah, blah" with no real meaning. Spam is the most appropriate word for it. As a matter of fact, i would not even classify tat as talking, just a bunch of guys blabbering. The backroom is really the place to talk about "off-topic" stuff. Either this or yours and my ideas of what's "off topic" are different. Unless of course the social group Tavern is different. If it is different, than please tell me how (preferably via PM - no need to go off-topic on this thread).Quote:
Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name
Show me somewhere where we have flamed someone who has given genuine constructive criticism of the mod. Back up your statement, retract it, or leave.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pontius Pilate
Foot
Edit by bovi: This post and its responses are moved here from this thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foot
that's the thing, anything I would consider genuine criticism, you would consider spam. so no matter what I put up you would find in some way, to say that it is not genuine. you do have to admit that when people second guess EB, like when they ask if Pannonian cavalry will be in the game, you respond quite harshly. also, if someone were to say that they would like to have unique marching sounds for the Romans in EB II, it would also be a little harsh for an EB team member to respond with cursing and vulgar in his post.
also, when you say "leave", you mean leave the thread right? I surely don’t hope you are suggesting to me or other moderators that I should permanently leave the EB forum and the Org. right? because if this is the case, well I have to say I am not intimidated one bit.
A thread closed by Foot where he told ALL parties to cool down, hardly a good example.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pontius Pilate
Check out Rastapopoulos's history of posts and threads. He is the one who made that thread about Pannonian Cavalry. He also made something like 10 other threads asking if each individual unit was going to be in EB II. 99.9% of his posts are those of a troll. He is a troll. He either baits people or posts wildly irrelevant and immature statements. Foot is actually being nice by not banning him altogether for the many bad things Rastapopoulos has done. He even tried to impersonate General Appo once.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pontius Pilate
Constructive criticism is when you offer a problem and a possible solution. A possible realistic solution. Just criticism is when you complain without offering any solutions or knowing that there is no solution. Not to be confused with reporting a bug. There is a fine line between the two types of criticism. Sometimes people will misunderstand you and sometimes they may even flame you. Not the EB team necessarily, but simply other .Org members. I would avoid criticism altogether, since this is a mod after all. It is free and if you don't like it, just don't play it - bug reporting is fine, but otherwise there is no point to criticism. What people sot often do not understand is that there are priorities, hardcode limitations, impracticalities, and limits to how much work can be done on a single faction (i.e. Romani - everyone wants everything for their good ol' Romans).Quote:
Originally Posted by Pontius Pilate
Anyway, I thought this thread was going to be locked right in the beginning, but it is even more likely right now. I simply cannot see how this thread can remain open. We are all walking on a tightrope when we post in this thread. Perhaps it would be best if this got locked before it gets hotter.
All I'm asking for is for you to put forward some solid cases where you think we have been unfair to genuine constructive criticism. If you cannot then I would suggest you retract your statement otherwise it is part of the problem not part of the solution, spreading poison against the EB team which we cannot respond to. Its creates an impression of the EB team that is unfair and something that we cannot respond to or rectify. Eventually we get a reputation that is undeserved and we have to close up shop because of the poison being spewed on our forums.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pontius Pilate
If you do neither of the above then I suggest that you leave, because all you are doing with your above statement is spreading poison against EB, something that I would consider to be trolling.
I hope you understand my position.
Foot
Everyone calm down. You are all arguing on the internet in a video game forum. When people say "The Internet is Serious Business!" they are joking. Kind of a disappointment to see this on the same day when 1.2 came out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foot
yes I understand where you're trying to get at, and I am really not trying to put an end to the EB team, trust me, I love the game as much as anyone else. I think we all can agree that everyone on this forum has no sinister intents to end EB, that is just ridiculous. But to point out that I am the main perpetrator who would posion the EB team is also wrong and complete nonsense. I think we all misunderstood each other here. but sometimes this forum can be a little too harsh to posters and what they say. Like when somebody said they would like to have "the sound of Romans marching in EBII" which is more like a coment then criticism, someone instantly started cursing him out with the F word. that to me sounds a bit extreme.
anyway I have said all that I want to say in this thread so I am done with it. if I offended the EB team, or any other Orgers than you have my apologies.(especially the EB team, if they were offended), but if I didn't offend you then you don't have my apologies. and since I have said all that I want to say I am not going to post in this thread anymore, unless someone seriously starts to flame me. I am also not leaving the forum/Org.
I moved the stuff, now that thread can continue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aemilius Paulus
i think you confuse Foot and others' politeness for backing down in a contest of alpha spam. There is no winner in a contest of alpha spam.
what is this suppose to mean? :inquisitive: (rhetorical - don't answer!)Quote:
Originally Posted by Pontius Pilate
This poll has been created to find out just where user opinion lies on the subject of the policing and enforcement of rules in "The Guild" Forums. It is intended to give the moderators a better idea of how their current system is working and what changes (if any) users would like to see.
The choices (since I timed out before the poll could be inserted) are:
1) This place is "family friendly?" #@&@% that! The intertubes are for adults and you guys need to stop being Nazis. We don't need babysitters!
2) You guys could lighten up a bit. Parents are responsible for their own children's 'safety' online. A little swearing and good-old trolling never hurt anyone
3) I think you guys are doing great. This place is fine just the way it is. ( I actually have no opinion because I am afraid of retaliation. I welcome our Overlords)
4) Ummm, the fact that words like "hell" and "damn" are even thought by people, let alone typed for all to see is a horrible testament to the decline of our society. Please save us from ourselves, random internet strangers!
5) You are too permissive, let the purge begin! There is too much free speech already. Start censoring posts and assigning Guild 'minders' to 'gently' re-educate dissidents. The natives are restless and it is your God-given right to violently and overwhelmingly suppress all opposition to control your monster.
Are you angry because of the reaction to your joke in that locked thread?
You shouldn't, 'twas a good one and the 20000th guy who askes the same question that in the FAQ deserves such an answer.
But new members might not get it and might feel intimidated by it, hence the reaction.
I think the froum ruler and enforcement are good, EB mods allow much, but not too much.
This is not really the place to post this, anyway, since the EB forum doesn't have its own rules and the EB mods can't do much to change them either...
Edit: although I do agree on the fact the
"4) Ummm, the fact that words like "hell" and "damn" are even thought by people, let alone typed for all to see is a horrible testament to the decline of our society. Please save us from ourselves, random internet strangers!"
But again, that has nothing to do with EB or even the EB mods.
I choose, option 1
No, the locked thread had nothing to do with it. It's a culmination of other little grievances I have with our overlords. And this is the perfect place because I only come to the EB part of the forums, so I'm only interested in what EB fans have to say.
Okay, I want to say this again:
The Guild are not EB's forums.
They are seperate.
They are not one.
EB's forums are one part of the .org "The Guild".
There is life outside of the EB forums.
For any comments regarding the .org's policy on moderating, I suggest you go here. Don't worry, they don't bite!
3. Definitely 3.
O__O
The EB team has no say in how the .Org is moderated, our moderators here enforce the policy as is.
If you have problem with that policy the correct place to go is the Watchtower
TTCM, you are labouring under some serious misapprehensions.
1. The forum rules are not set by the EB team but by the org. The rules as they stand are non-negotiable. Here they are:
Forum Rules
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
I have taken the liberty to highlight in red some points that may be of particular interest to you.
2. The EB Team does not owe you anything. All team activity on the public forum is purely voluntary: tech questions answered, bugs hunted, new fans welcomed, previews of upcoming material: none of it is required. We are not your overlords, you are not our subjects. You may leave at any time and new people may look in unimpeded. If you do not like the forum rules or how the EB team chooses to respond (or not) to your demands, you are free to never post again in this forum: you have not paid anybody for any of the work they have done and therefore have no lien against the team. Likewise the team has no lien against you except their responsibility to ensure that the forum rules are followed. Most importantly, the EB team is under no onus to respond to polls like this.
TTCM, I don't think your joke in that thread was bad (I like sarcasm), and I wonder why it was locked. Normally they give a little explanation why they lock the thread, so perhaps it was an accident?
That said, I don't understand your reaction here right now. If you are so smart to make that sarcastic remark, I don't understand why you feel so p***ed now. I think the moderation in the Guild forums is good, just right.
A Roman fanboy? His complaints aren't even worth my attention.
Nevertheless, I'll go with option 3. You're doing great, Bovi. :smile:
Hang on, now. I'm not directing any of this at the EB team.....EB and its makers are GREAT! This is all about "The Guild" and ".ORG" and "Jelsoft INC" and other ominous sounding groups. Again, this isn't directed at anyone who works on/for/with EB....just the people who run "The Org".
The whole purpose of the poll is simply just to see how people in the EB community feel about the forum regulations/rules. That's all. I am not upset, but do feel that the forum moderators constrain us too much. There are no hard feelings, and there is no anger on my part. There are also no misconceptions on my part. I know who runs what around here. I know the rules are arbitrarily made and enforced by the powers that be - and that use of the forum is a choice; but there's nothing illegal or wrong with me finding out how others feel about them in a public way so that our Overlords might take note.
Thank you; but they are not of interest, as they do not apply.Quote:
Originally Posted by oudysseos
So, please just give your vote, or don't vote - your choice. Again, i'm simply interested in hearing how the EB community feels about the censorship on the forum - which from all of this immediate, off-topic backlash, one could possibly say that the Pavlov effect is in full swing. That's all, no hidden agendas.
Moved Marcellus' thread here where similar discussion has gone on.
If you feel an .Org staff member has been treating you unfairly, you should take it up with an administrator, Ser Clegane or his boss TosaInu. You can also start a thread in a watchtower, although it is considered impolite to do so without first discussing your grievance with the staff member in question or one of the administrators.
If you are complaining against the rules in general, keep in mind that the .Org operates on the credo "If you cannot say it politely, don't say it at all". There are plenty of boards on the internet where you can insult and flame to your heart's content. This is not one of them, and we like it as it is.
Aha! Censorship! Totally amazing :wall: :dizzy2: :inquisitive: :no: :shame:Quote:
Originally Posted by bovi
Uh? Censorship? Since _when_ does the moving about of books on *public* shelf xyz1 to *public* shelf xyz2 in the library make for censorship of aforementioned books? Likewise, why should moving a collection of some of your public statements to another public statement-collection make for censorship of your statements?
Censorship is the proces whereby content is actively altered under specific conditions/ according specific guidelines/policies. This resembles no such thing.
I really don't see what you're complaining about, if you really want to be "adult" you should stop trying to push the boundaries and demanding the right to use foul and abusive language.
As my father said to me, "It's not funny, it's not clever, and it's not mature."
I don't care anymore, but if I had to choose, I would be stuck between 1 and 2.
Right up with "Assume makes an ass out of u and me". :laugh4:Quote:
As my father said to me, "It's not funny, it's not clever, and it's not mature."
Sorry, man, but it's true.
On the whole people seem to be far too willing to defend to the death the freedom for destructive speech, but will gladly give up the rights for constructive speech. If you are worried about censorship I would recommend you take your obvious passion for the subject into the battlegrounds of civic society and political self-expression. Do not take this place too seriously.
As for your poll. It is quite obvious not meant as a serious attempt to poll the opinions of the .org users, as your options quite clearly give your true feelings on the subject. A true poll is required to be neutral on its subject, which yours certainly isn't. It denigrates and misrepresents any opinion that is not your own (even the status quo no. 3 option, where you represent those as cowards). Those you support, you compare the policies and personalities of the moderators on these forums (and as this appears to be specifically for EB, EB team members) to Nazis. An obvious defense of your poll is to say that it was a joke. Funny it may be, but it is nothing more than a rather obvious attack on myself and others.
If you feel that your time here on the .org is time spent within an oppressive police-state, then you are more than welcome to set up an alternative forum. I'm sure that they would be excellent and more adult addition to the group of total war fan-sites.
I am now going to close this thread as there as been no useful conversation on the topic for quite some time, and the thinly veiled and personal attack on the moderators here is not welcome.
If you feel that there is a severe and unfair attack on you or any other poster on these forums then please do take it up with the administrators of this site. I speak to TosaInu often, and I have to say that all my correspondence with him has been some of the politest I've ever had on the internet. I'm sure that he, or any of his colleagues would be happy to listen to your complaint.
However, has as been mentioned specifically many times over, these particular forums are for the discussion of Europa Barbarorum, and thus this is not a suitable area for a joke, attack or serious discussion on the rules and policies of this site and forum.
if you have any questions about my post, feel free to PM me and I'll be happy to help.
Kind Regards,