Should we prevent suicide attempts?

The topic might be considered as not convenient, given what happened a few days ago in the frontroom*. If so, feel free to delete it.

Anyway, here's the idea. Why should we try to prevent people from comitting suicide? People are supposed to be free, and even free to hurt themselve as long as it doesn't hurt the community.

Then, why should we try to prevent suicide? Some people make choice, weight the pro and the con and decide that their life is not worth it. Should we deliberately try to convince them that they're doing the wrong choice, even though they might actually be right?

My father-in-law comitted suicide 4 years ago. He was a really nice man by all standards, and even though we sometimes got mad at each other (which probably mean we had a normal relationship), I really liked him. I would probably never have been as successful studies-wise as I am today without his help as well.
I was of course really sad when I learnt he ended his life. But who am I to judge him? He had deep monetary issues, was being sued by some former partners because of a job that turned out poorly, had bad relationships with his real son and his parents, etc.

He made many suicide attempts, driving my mum completely nut (as she was also having her own issues), and he knew that despite the fact he loved us, he was being a real burden to the family, and would be as long as he couldn't solve his issues and find a new job.

Now, 4 years later, I think he made the good choice. I'm not heartless, I cried when he died, but I mean, it was his choice. Who are we to prevent someone from leaving this place if he can't stand it anymore?

There is a difference between allowing and being to allow to. Of course you are allowed to kill yourself but this isn't a legal issue.

yes, i think we should. and considering most of us helped someone recently fro killing themselves, i think its a very worthwhile thing to do.

When another person wants to make a choice that will end his or her ability to make any more choices, I think it's legitimate to intervene.

Examples: Joining a cult, committing suicide, doing drugs on a scale that will destroy cognitive function, go off anti-psychotic medication ... sheesh, looking back at those situations, the only one I haven't been through with a friend or relative is the first.

Anyway, the problem with decision-ending decisions is that the person who goes that route denies himself the chance to wake up later and say, "What a complete barking idiot I've been." That's why it's fair game for friends, family and even strangers to intervene.

Suicide is a very selfish shortsighted irrational action. Often people who commit suicide in the western world live comfortably with working limbs and senses. These blessings in and of themselves should have you on your knees and thanking God.

Contrary to belief there is someone who loves and cares about you. That person or persons will never understand why you did something so selfish.

So yes, suicide should be discouraged and you should intervene. Why you would sit there and watch as a human wastes into oblivion is completely beyond me.

I think we should highly discourage it but not stop it or punish attempts at it...

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

Contrary to belief there is someone who loves and cares about you. That person or persons will never understand why you did something so selfish.

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Yes and no.

When she nearly killed herself, she told me she knew that we were there, she knew we loved her, but it didn't matter. She couldnt feel it, it didn't feel real. She could not comprehend or believe that anyone felt about her that way.

I can't say for sure, but I think its probably the same. The reality of the situation is in the back of your mind...you sit there and you know. But it just doesnt matter, its not real. its blocked out. It doesnt make sense.

Actually seeing the effect attempted suicide has on the ones who love you definately puts you off it, but it doesnt stop you from trying again.

its very :daisy: selfish, but...you kind of have to be in that situation yourself to understand...IMO anyway.

This topic brings back so many bad memories...

While I admit I have never had feelings like that

And honestly if someone told me that they knew I loved them and they would still do it. I'd knock them out and chain them to bed. I'd be very upset

Yes, a suicidal person is frequently if not always mentaly ill, or else in a such an overwhelming situation where they can not understand there actions. You can't treat this like a rational decision, it deserves it's own set of safe guards.

Understandable that you would be upset, everyone affected by it is. The fact remains though you know the situation, it just....isnt there. Gah. Hard to explain.

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Originally Posted by Lemur

When another person wants to make a choice that will end his or her ability to make any more choices, I think it's legitimate to intervene.

Examples: Joining a cult, committing suicide, doing drugs on a scale that will destroy cognitive function, go off anti-psychotic medication ... sheesh, looking back at those situations, the only one I haven't been through with a friend or relative is the first.

Anyway, the problem with decision-ending decisions is that the person who goes that route denies himself the chance to wake up later and say, "What a complete barking idiot I've been." That's why it's fair game for friends, family and even strangers to intervene.

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A little off topic, but do you apply that logic to seatbelt laws?

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

Suicide is a very selfish shortsighted irrational action. Often people who commit suicide in the western world live comfortably with working limbs and senses. These blessings in and of themselves should have you on your knees and thanking God.

Contrary to belief there is someone who loves and cares about you. That person or persons will never understand why you did something so selfish.

So yes, suicide should be discouraged and you should intervene. Why you would sit there and watch as a human wastes into oblivion is completely beyond me.

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+1

great post

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Originally Posted by Kush

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Originally Posted by SFTS

Suicide is a very selfish shortsighted irrational action. Often people who commit suicide in the western world live comfortably with working limbs and senses. These blessings in and of themselves should have you on your knees and thanking God.

Contrary to belief there is someone who loves and cares about you. That person or persons will never understand why you did something so selfish.

So yes, suicide should be discouraged and you should intervene. Why you would sit there and watch as a human wastes into oblivion is completely beyond me.

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+1

great post

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The last third of it is good, but as I've said, those things simply don't come into the mind of a person in that condition.

Lets say your brother dies, of natural causes. You are understandably upset. What if someone says that you should be thankful he died peacefully, and that he wasnt shot to death, nor were you.

Your sad. Sadness keeps things out of your mind.

The only other thing I can think of is reading a book. You may know the words you need are in this paragraph, you're reading them, but you are just not with it and you just keep reading. You're reading it, but you don't realise it.


Not great examples, but its the best I can do at work.

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Originally Posted by Alexander the Pretty Good

A little off topic, but do you apply that logic to seatbelt laws?

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Not for adults. If they want to needlessly put themselves in jeopardy, that's their right. But they should be ticketed for allowing minors to be loose in a vehicle, especially at highway speeds. Likewise, adults who want to ride motorcycles without a helmet should be allowed to do so.

Risky behavior does not equal suicidal behavior.

So the line is drawn at intent, not what actually comes out of the action?

Well if you are a cop you stop people from preventing suicide by killing them. Unless the media is present, then you counsel them.

Other than that, adult people should be allowed to kill themselves if they want, regardless of whether or not they can prove they have a fatal illness. In fact, they pretty much can. It's easy, I could do it right now if I want. Unless I had a fatal illness I guess and was stuck in bed, then I'd need someone to do it for me.

I seem to miss what part of dying with dignity entails being eaten alive by cancer as opposed to putting a round in your heart or sucking on a tail pipe.....oh wait, I remember now, legal suicide would hurt the industrial medical machine because they couldn't siphon away families savings for treatments that only prolong suffering.

Yes, we should prevent suicide attempts.

But then again, there's euthanasia, which should be allowed.

Finding the right balance is difficult :juggle2:

Yes but as long as you are certain that no one is going to be traumatised about it.

If its a clean suicide, supervised by doctars and are old enough to declare that you've had enough fun in your life then who are we to stop them?

If its a suicide for the sake of proving something.. Even more so. Lots of people do stupid things like stunts.. These are suicide attempts to. But no one is stopping them because we would know that they died chasing their dreams.

Suicide in this context. No. It adds nothing to the society. It takes everything away from them. Not only the family have to clean their mess, but they are so young. There is so much that they can do in the future but they decides to throw everything away. And further hand out grief to those who are left.

I think suiciding is just arrogant and selfish, inconsiderate thing to do.

Although when the pressure is on you and depression hits you, you can't really think like this which I understand. And while its a minority, some of those who attempts or think about suiciding really do live in cruel environment. But even those shouldn't suicide. Instead they should try to find their way out or seek support.

As for those who are complaining about trivial factors like X box. Definitely not. Suicide attempts by those kinds should be prevented at all cost.

I've said a lot of stuff so far, but not my position.

Case by case basis. I'd want someone to stop the girl in question from before, but not me. :shrug:

I probably wouldn't interfere but I'm of the opinion that you make your choices and get on with life.

If someone decides they don't want to get on with life then who am I to say that they have to? And lets face it, if you really want to kill yourself you will no matter what anyone else says or does.

Of course every effort should be made in stopping a suicide attempt!

However, understandably most of the time our efforts come away in vain. There is something very wrong with our culture that actually says people who try to kill themselves aren't human or secretly deserve it, when in fact it can be very opposite. This whole nonsense about it being a selfish act, or the most terrible thing you can do, thats why the issue is so underground and why people are afraid to actually say something, and just do it anyways. And its not always people who are "mentally ill" a lot of the time its absolutely average people who feel like they've been backed into a corner and there's no way out.

I would like to disagree with this notion that suicide is selfish... often people who kill themselves do it partially for others benefit as well as thier own...

Well some of them can be based off selfless thinking... others i think people have the right to be as damn selfish as they want, it is them that has to go through thier sad lives everyday... not thier parents, friends or sibllings... so the decision should rest on thier personal feelings and not the potential reactions to thier loved ones...

Once the person is not suffering from treatable depression and any other factors that are treatable are treated (severe pain for example) then the person should be allowed to die.

This in my mind differentiates a teenager drinking a litre of vodka and 100 paracetamol as their first "true love" has left them for someone else to a person with an incurable neurodegenerative disease making a choice before their quality of life drops below a level they are unable to countenance.

Of course, my two examples are obviously the nice simple black and white ones.

Doctors now have to follow patient wishes far more than they used to - including witholding treatment and care if the patient has specified.

I agree that suicide is a selfish act, but so is smoking or drug dealing - and oh so many activities we undertake.

~:smoking:

I don't think you can say that suicide is always selfish. Although in most cases there will be people who love someone comtemplating suicide, that person may feel that they are such a burden they will be doing their family a favour. Although there might be a bit of short-term grief, it will save a lifetime of misery for all involved. This doesn't just happen with suicides, what about those old people who go into care homes and become like zombies because they didn't want to consume their children's time and hold them back in life? Are they selfish?

I'm not saying that's how it is, but that's what those who commit suicide may think like. From their perspective, its not a selfish act.

I think we should stop suicides from happening, but we should not call all those who consider it 'selfish' either. That's niether fair nor productive when it comes to dealing with them.

I think that if you're terminally ill or severely handicapped after an accident, suicidide or euthanesia would be understandable and should be allowed.

People who are perfectly fit and yet want to kill themselves is less understandable and this would most likely come from a mental illness. If someone is really determined he'll succeed someway, making it somewhat a moot point.

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Originally Posted by Lemur

Examples: Joining a cult, committing suicide, doing drugs on a scale that will destroy cognitive function, go off anti-psychotic medication ... sheesh, looking back at those situations, the only one I haven't been through with a friend or relative is the first.

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Lemur look around. You are an Orgah. You are in a cult. :creep: :laugh4:

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Originally Posted by pevergreen

The last third of it is good, but as I've said, those things simply don't come into the mind of a person in that condition.

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Yes they do. I've talked to a few friends who have contemplated suicide, and they all said their loved ones kept them alive.

Edit:

The only absolute reason that would ever stop myself from committing suicide, would be my family. I would damage them beyond all belief if I killed myself.

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Originally Posted by Kush

Yes they do. I've talked to a few friends who have contemplated suicide, and they all said their loved ones kept them alive.

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The only experience I can go off is my own and that of my ex gf's.

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Originally Posted by pevergreen

The last third of it is good, but as I've said, those things simply don't come into the mind of a person in that condition.

Lets say your brother dies, of natural causes. You are understandably upset. What if someone says that you should be thankful he died peacefully, and that he wasnt shot to death, nor were you.

Your sad. Sadness keeps things out of your mind.

The only other thing I can think of is reading a book. You may know the words you need are in this paragraph, you're reading them, but you are just not with it and you just keep reading. You're reading it, but you don't realise it.


Not great examples, but its the best I can do at work.

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I would say that person needs to learn tact.


You have to show them you love them. You have to look in there ears and bear your soul. Doing it over the phone or facebook simply won't cut it. Make sure they know killing themselves would be like killing you.

I was speaking more of the younger demographic, old people are completely different.

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I would like to disagree with this notion that suicide is selfish... often people who kill themselves do it partially for others benefit as well as thier own...

Well some of them can be based off selfless thinking... others i think people have the right to be as damn selfish as they want, it is them that has to go through thier sad lives everyday... not thier parents, friends or sibllings... so the decision should rest on thier personal feelings and not the potential reactions to thier loved ones...

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Saddness is all a matter of perception. A 17 year old offing themselves is completly and utterly selfish , to there mum, dad and family. Not to mention there future spouse and children or people they will meet later on.

This whole "Oh woe is me" thing is a pile of bull. As is "no one understands" There is someone somewhere going through something much worse and there doing it with a smile on there face.

Now if you'll excuse me I must get off my high horse

TBH i saw suicide as pretty much worry free one of the attractions... maybe im just selfish but it wouldn't be a deciding factor...

Though i have no dependents if i did... it might be different...

Saddness is all a matter of perception. A 17 year old offing themselves is completly and utterly selfish , to there mum, dad and family.

Im sure some 17 year old have pretty crappy lives, with no hope for improvment... they may be wrong about there being no hope but is it really that selfish for someone to remove themselves from a horrible place becase they cant take it anymore and see no escape...

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

I would say that person needs to learn tact.


You have to show them you love them. You have to look in there ears and bear your soul. Doing it over the phone or facebook simply won't cut it. Make sure they know killing themselves would be like killing you.

I was speaking more of the younger demographic, old people are completely different.



Saddness is all a matter of perception. A 17 year old offing themselves is completly and utterly selfish , to there mum, dad and family. Not to mention there future spouse and children or people they will meet later on.

This whole "Oh woe is me" thing is a pile of bull. As is "no one understands" There is someone somewhere going through something much worse and there doing it with a smile on there face.

Now if you'll excuse me I must get off my high horse

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I did everything I could and more. Theres a thread a few pages back in this backroom. That was kind of a log of what was happening.

I don't believe I can change your view, so I'm not going to try.

edit: its on page 20. https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...2&postcount=14

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Originally Posted by Papewaio

Imagine yourself at your happiest (not pleasured, happiest).

In your daily life you are fit, have had plenty of sleep, are exercising regularly. You feel that what you do is important, that you contribute to your life, family and society. You move through each day with a purpose. You don't run or strut you glide and glow so brightly that you seem to be smiling even when you aren't. You have so many options and things to do and at the same time you know which needs to be done first, and then second and then third... You are a dynamo of happiness and motivation.

Now turn that upside down and inside out and you have depression. Depressed you can't see any options, there is no way out, it is black and you are at the bottom of a well in which you can't see any way out. You are so scared that nothing can get better that nothing must be better then here and now. You fear the blankness so much that eternal death looks a much rosier option. No known options in life remain, but there is the unknown option of death.

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Thats a lot better than I can do.

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

Saddness is all a matter of perception. A 17 year old offing themselves is completly and utterly selfish , to there mum, dad and family. Not to mention there future spouse and children or people they will meet later on.

This whole "Oh woe is me" thing is a pile of bull. As is "no one understands" There is someone somewhere going through something much worse and there doing it with a smile on there face.

Now if you'll excuse me I must get off my high horse

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Your strawmanning depression. Not all cases of depression equals angsty emos.

Strike,
You have to understand that people do radical things when put into stressful situations. Its not a matter of "woe is me" or "people don't understand me" its usually more just complete perceptual obliviousness to the world that surrounds you. Suicide isn't the only case where people do fatal harm to themselves, you could go so far as to say that Murdering somebody would fall right along into the same category, only suicide is internalized where murder is externalized, and I hate to say it but nearly everybody can be pushed to the point of murder no matter what class, country, or lifestyle the person belongs to. You might ask yourself this question, am I a person who kills myself? or kills other people? If you don't fall into either category, there may be something very wrong...or very right.
Besides the point, the vast majority of people who do kill themselves are suffering from debilitating mental neurosis, or perhaps thats how they perceive it. How you perceive, or anyone else just doesn't matter to them. Likewise, the vast majority of murderers are also people who suffer from debilitating mental neurosis, of course you would have to get off of your "high horse" in order to understand that these chemical imbalances in people's brains aren't what defines them, because you are composed of the same chemicals, its just theirs aren't balanced whereas yours is, which is only to mean that they're a fraction more likely to carry out such acts as anyone else who doesn't have a mental neurosis.

Cheers :wink:

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Originally Posted by Lord Winter

Your strawmanning depression. Not all cases of depression equals angsty emos.

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Depression does not have anything to do with being emo. Not necesserely.
Having depression means you are unable to make decissions. This can be tough choices like choosing a job or simple matter like going shopping or not.
Ofc this problems often lead to difficulties regarding people you know, hence emo.

Anyway. I'm on the "give everyone a free choice to kill him self." I am acutally living up to that. A good friend I lived with for 3 years told me he might kill himself and I said fine, I'm not gonna stop you. After all that guy is not the angsty "I need help" kinda guy but the one who simply vanishes one day.
I hope I can at least say goodbye to him if he ever does it.

On the other I see no rush in killing oneself. Everyone will have its day to die. Why the rush?

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Originally Posted by Fixiwee

Depression does not have anything to do with being emo. Not necesserely.
Having depression means you are unable to make decissions. This can be tough choices like choosing a job or simple matter like going shopping or not.

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Utter rubbish.

Depression has nothing to do with the ability to make decisions. Some depressed people are able to do so, others not. Link

~:smoking:

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Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

Utter rubbish.

Depression has nothing to do with the ability to make decisions. Some depressed people are able to do so, others not. Link

~:smoking:

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I was merley pointing out that depression has nothing to do with being an emo. I was a bit unspecific maybe, because I spoke out of personal expirience and not of scholastic knowledge. Friend of mine has diagnosis of depression and she is unable to make any decisions.

Unspecific yes. But not "utter rubbish".

Sorry, family and work stress might be making me less tolerant than normal... ~:grouphug:

~:smoking:

Touchee.
No hard feelings. :heart:

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

Contrary to belief there is someone who loves and cares about you. That person or persons will never understand why you did something so selfish.

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Rubbish.
In my case, my father in law was being a burden on the family. My mum was the only one bringing money to the house, feeding him, me, my brother and our pets.
Not only that, but out of shame (as he couldn't pay anything despite promising to do it), he caused lots of issues (ie. "Yeah I paid that" while he never actually did it, causing the government/bank/water company to get mad at my mum).
He stole money to me and my back-then 14 years old brother, to actually pretend to be paying stuff and to be making us gifts.

We loved him, but he was driving us mad, and was putting my mother in a difficult position, and he perfectly knew it. Since he had nowhere to go and couldn't apparently solve his issues, his only left choice was actually to end his life.

I wouldn't call that selfish. He knew people loved him, but he knew he was harming those people, so he gave his life. I would describe his behavior as extremely selfless.

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Originally Posted by SFTS

This whole "Oh woe is me" thing is a pile of bull. As is "no one understands" There is someone somewhere going through something much worse and there doing it with a smile on there face.

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Once again, I call rubbish. You seem to be perceiving that suicide is some kind of fashionly behaviour, and that it concerns only some people ("teenagers", "emos" or however you wanna call them).

I admit that some people are thinking about suicide for completely pointless, irrelevant and ridiculous reasons (such as "I lost my Xbox"), but in these cases, I wouldn't take it seriously.
Some people on the other hand, have no friends, never enjoyed love, or at some point in their life felt deeply betrayed. Then I think they have a reason to commit suicide. Humans are social beings, and when we can't have any social relationship, why bothering about life? Whether you admit it or not, some people don't have anything left, or weight the pro and the con and decide that the cons are vastly overwhelming.
Why should people be glad to have working limbes and senses when they don't have anything else? All your talk about thanking god sounds like crap to me in that case.

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Rubbish.
In my case, my father in law was being a burden on the family. My mum was the only one bringing money to the house, feeding him, me, my brother and our pets.
Not only that, but out of shame (as he couldn't pay anything despite promising to do it), he caused lots of issues (ie. "Yeah I paid that" while he never actually did it, causing the government/bank/water company to get mad at my mum).
He stole money to me and my back-then 14 years old brother, to actually pretend to be paying stuff and to be making us gifts.

We loved him, but he was driving us mad, and was putting my mother in a difficult position, and he perfectly knew it. Since he had nowhere to go and couldn't apparently solve his issues, his only left choice was actually to end his life.

I wouldn't call that selfish. He knew people loved him, but he knew he was harming those people, so he gave his life. I would describe his behavior as extremely selfless.

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While your father in laws situation is regrettable there is a million things he could've done besides killing himself. There are also a million things he could've done instead of steal from his family.

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Once again, I call rubbish. You seem to be perceiving that suicide is some kind of fashionly behaviour, and that it concerns only some people ("teenagers", "emos" or however you wanna call them).

I admit that some people are thinking about suicide for completely pointless, irrelevant and ridiculous reasons (such as "I lost my Xbox"), but in these cases, I wouldn't take it seriously.
Some people on the other hand, have no friends, never enjoyed love, or at some point in their life felt deeply betrayed. Then I think they have a reason to commit suicide. Humans are social beings, and when we can't have any social relationship, why bothering about life? Whether you admit it or not, some people don't have anything left, or weight the pro and the con and decide that the cons are vastly overwhelming.
Why should people be glad to have working limbes and senses when they don't have anything else? All your talk about thanking god sounds like crap to me in that case.

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Because there are people who would kill for working limbs and senses. There are people who would kill to have a roof over there head. People take these gifts like they are owed them when they are really not owed anything. Why you would throw that all away is quite frankly utterly stupid. Especially when people soldier on all there lives with none of those things.


Everyone at some point gets betrayed or loses someone they love. You can't just quit, Same goes for someone who has never been loved. Often times the people who commit suicide are young, love will come to them. At times one must go through trials and tribulations, that's part of life.

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

Because there are people who would kill for working limbs and senses. There are people who would kill to have a roof over there head. People take these gifts like they are owed them when they are really not owed anything. Why you would throw that all away is quite frankly utterly stupid. Especially when people soldier on all there lives with none of those things.

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Having limbs and shelter are not reasons to live for, they are there to sustain life. While its tragic that some people lack these basic necessities, I don't see why we should frown upon people for wanting to end their lives when its all they've got. If you feel worthless, then you think that the food you eat to keep your limbs functioning is a waste of resources, even the air you breathe.

To want to live, your life has to have some sort of purpose or goal. The problem with suicide cases is that they don't have this, or feel that it is unattainable, even if it's not in reality.

When I was ill last year (I had an ear infection that ravaged my sense, which made me feel like nothing was real, plus I couldn't feel anything at time, I couldn't do anything, even breathing was hard thanks to a crippling mental decline) and honestyl wanted to die, not to kil lmyself, but to not wake up.

I can see why people think it, but it depends on each case, the illness made me feel that way, so no pep talk would work because it'd not cure me.

I am very sad to find somebody here wanted to kill themselves, glad it worked out for the best.

BTW i think people are strawmaning the front room guy, i think the x box was more of a last straw than the main reason he was doing it...

I think people need to consider the problems more, mental issues i think is a fairly straightforward one... as in a portion of it may be more down to thier mental state rather than personal issues... though im guessing it would usually be a mix of both in thier cases...

The harder one to think on is those who commit suicide without mental issues playing a factor...

I can understand this one somewhat having thought about it myself...

One of the main things is a lack of hope... thats the real big killer, life feels crap now... but it is only going to get worse from now on... whether its true or not the lack of hope is the biggest part. If you have nothing to look forward to but plenty of things to dread then just opting out of life seems the sensible option... dread, worries and all problems are gone...

Sure it means you miss out on any good stuff but usually there isn't a whole lot good in that persons life and they only expect things to get worse... so with a look at the pros and cons of thier life and how that will adjust in the future they get to the conclusion that it really isn't worth it...

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Originally Posted by LittleGrizzly

BTW i think people are strawmaning the front room guy, i think the x box was more of a last straw than the main reason he was doing it...

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Yes. And I don't really appreciate it being dragged into the discussion in such a way, very thoughtless considering how recent that topic is.

I don't so much mind people drawing on his experiences (although it should be done carefully and with sensitivity) but just the insulting of the guy... do some of you realise he may even read the backroom... and while internet insults may not be the most hurtful things the guy is in a bad place anyway...

He probably doesn't read the backroom anyway but i personally don't appreciate his desperation being mocked...

There were actually times just out of college when things got so bad and rotten that I seriously considered suicide. I had the means, I had the plans, but my paternal grandfather committed suicide as did one of my dad's brothers shortly after, and I just couldn't put my father and grandma through that again as I'm not only my dads only child, but my grandmas only grandchild. Every time they visit those graves on memorial day they are both a mess for the rest of the day.

But honestly, that's the only thing that kept me from doing it. Oh, and I found the .org soon after.

I did not, however, talk about my plans with anyone. Ever. I have had plenty of friends and girlfriends who go "suicidal" only for it to be a cry for help or attention, so I have a special disdain for the ones who talk about it and use it as false threats. Exceptions are always available, of course.

Suicide does not always = mental instability. Many suicides are well-planned, well-executed, and the person in question will often seem at peace, seem happy and maybe even seem like they have a long term plan or goal mapped out, which I guess in a sort of way they do. I would be willing to wager that most People who really, really, really, really want to kill themselves don't advertise that fact.

But the false threats, grrr they make me so mad, are also used as a means for attention, which dilutes the attention from the people who are actually in need of help. It also desensitizes people from suicide threats, it lessens the impact of suicide prevention and in the long run it only hurts the people who truly need help.

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Originally Posted by Major Robert Dump

But the false threats, grrr they make me so mad, are also used as a means for attention, which dilutes the attention from the people who are actually in need of help. It also desensitizes people from suicide threats, it lessens the impact of suicide prevention and in the long run it only hurts the people who truly need help.

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The desperation of other should not make you mad. Of course some people cry "suicide" out loud because they don't get enough attention, but know that you cannot messure your own problems with other ones.

I've been through some very desperate times, much like MRD. Everyone thought I had clinical depression, so I was getting treated for it, and after a few years it turned out to be Bi Polar Disorder. The Episodes of absolute Mania in itself actually made it much more likely for me to carry through with an attempt, as opposed to being depressed, which actually just makes you think about it more than anything.
In the long run, after you get your leg crushed by a truck, a brace you have to have to wear for 9 months, some 90+ stitches later and a left foot that makes it quite painful to run (even though I do, so I have to just bare with it) The idea of killing oneself really makes the whole episode much less pleasing to the palate. I've never really forgiven myself for traumatizing the guy who hit me, even though I must confess I was a just a dumbass sixteen year old with some severe problems. The Truck Driver has since forgiven me, and was just glad I was alive and relatively intact. Plus, as I've found out, life does get better. Not necessarily for everyone, but I'm not sure if that is either the minority or majority.

I think the point's already been mentioned, but I think it's all a matter of personal choice and point of view.....I mean a normal person will never be happy killing people, a sadist on the other hand likes causing pain, which to a normal people seems wrong.
Similarly while we might find life good and nice, another chap might find that life for him sucks. Maybe it's because he's young and he hasn't seen enough to learn that things get better when we work at them, and that darkness never lasts, maybe he does not know ideas we take for granted, and so with his limited knowledge he decides it's better to die than live.
Now, he thinks it's right, what we think is wrong.......he'll be happy doing it, even if we might not be. So the question is, can we convince that chap to see our point of view? Can we make him realize that life's worth living.....it's not always easy.....and anyway, who says we're right and he's wrong? Maybe it's we who're wrong and he's got it right, that life after death is going to be rosier. I mean, the chap next door who says he saw aliens outside the city, might just be right.....we can't claim to be right on everything because we're humans and we all are biased in one way or the other, we are all biased.
So the only legitimate reason we have to stop the suicidal person is that those around him might want him to live.....those who love him might want him to live. In that case, we're stopping him not because we want him to live, but because we want the people who want him to live to be happy....so this time, infact he's doing a favor to others by living, in a sense.

That all aside, I'm not supporting suicide. For one, even if life sucks, even if you know things are down, and will only get worse, even then, suicide is running away. It's like giving up. It's like being in the torture chamber, and spilling everything out, giving up........and even if a chap does not have the courage to keep living for himself, then any decent person must face the world for those who love him. Live for them then. You have nothing to do, you were going to end it all, so insted of taking that final break, you toil some more for those who love you......that's it.

(Edit: Again, someone might think that running away when the going gets too tough to handle is fine, so........)

The only kind of 'suicide' that is acceptable to the civilized people, I think, is the kind they have in the old stories. Great people finish of all they came to do on Earth, and have nothing more left to do, and so, wrapping it all up, they discard their bodies. It sounds cooler too.

Simply put: No. Offer people a way out (a way down for a guy on a bridge) but don't actively prevent them from killing themselves. The right to one's own life always seemed like a clear-cut thing to me. I doubt many here would disagree that people have the right to live their lives how they please (within the law) and why should this be any different?

As for this so-called selfish issue. It's no more selfish than these so-called 'loved ones' demanding that someone be kept alive when they no longer want to be. Maybe someone picked up on this hypocrisy - I didn't read the whole thread - but I find it unbelievable the number of people that condemn suicidal cases on account of being selfish. You think they're living their lives for you?

Suicide is hard. It is not selfishness, it is the need to stop suffering. Because you are taking so much damage that you need to stop. That is why you do such a thing. Help them, if it is not possible to help them, then let them die.