Pirates seize U.S. freighter, hold captain for ransom

:thumbsdown:

Well, we knew it was only a matter of time:

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/africa...ked/index.html.

So what will our reaction be? My guess is another "Vote present" maneuver by our president. Thus far, his big answer has been "we're reviewing our options". Then, a destroyer was dispatched from over 400 nautical miles away. Should get there in about 12 hours. I'm sure the pirates will be considerate and wait around for the destroyer to arrive.

Seriously, I think Obama will take one of two approaches. He's not about to confront anybody. So he'll either do nothing, and quietly pay ransom to get the sailors back, then talk about the need for new oversight by the government of the shipping industry. Or, he'll actually come out and negotiate with these clowns, elevating them to sovereign nation status. He may even issue an apology for whatever sins the U.S has committed in the past.

The one thing I'm certain he won't do is exactly what we need to do.... stage 2 or 3 SEAL team raids on a couple of known operating bases in Somalia. No, he won't even allow U.S. merchant marines to use firearms to defend themselves. While the pirates attack the crew with AK-47's and RPGs, Obama's answer to the crew... use fire hoses. Yeah, that seems like a fair fight.:wall::wall::wall:

Disgusting. It will provoke and accelerate and embolden further aggression against the United States around the world. Why doesn't Rahm Emmanuel loan his concrete cojones to Obama in moments like these? :thumbsdown:

The pirates are a symptom of a bigger problem occurring. Wiping out these pirates will remove the symptom...for a time, before more rise to take their place, learning from the mistakes of those before them.

Yes, many of them are pirates because it's a job, and there are no other jobs.
Attacking them now might mean all the sailors die, and sailors of other countries as well, countries that will then hate the US.

Putting armed men onto ships means you aren't allowed into many ports around the globe, this was discussed before.

The sailors have retaken control of the ship of their own accord.

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Originally Posted by Husar

Yes, many of them are pirates because it's a job, and there are no other jobs.
Attacking them now might mean all the sailors die, and sailors of other countries as well, countries that will then hate the US.

Putting armed men onto ships means you aren't allowed into many ports around the globe, this was discussed before.

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I have absolutely no way to respond to viewpoints like this. You're a nice guy Husar, I've come to appreciate your views over the years, but the above... you could tell me you eat bugs and I'd be less flabbergasted.

How do you defend the kidnappers? How do you blame the U.S. for protecting its sailors?

As for countries that would deny port entry to ships that actually capitalize on their right to defend themselves.... perhaps we're better off not trading with such self-loathing people with no instinct to survive.

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

I have absolutely no way to respond to viewpoints like this. You're a nice guy Husar, I've come to appreciate your views over the years, but the above... you could tell me you eat bugs and I'd be less flabbergasted.

How do you defend the kidnappers? How do you blame the U.S. for protecting its sailors?

As for countries that would deny port entry to ships that actually capitalize on their right to defend themselves.... perhaps we're better off not trading with such self-loathing people with no instinct to survive.

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It's a danish ship I believe, and I imagine they want to make money by trading.

Anyone here ready for the Third Barbary War?

In all seriousness, this is nothing surprising. The problem is, I don't think there's any one pirate port or base that can just be tooken out and the pirates die. This is a problem that will need to be addressed ship by ship, and possibly seaborne interdictions into Somalia. It would require a lot of manpower and money, but I have confidence a strategy like this would work. However, in light of the stretching of the U.S. Military and the economic situation, this is unlikely in the near future.

And I think Husar is right that these pirates are simply in it for the money, and not trying to push some ideological or political agenda. An offensive against piracy will undoubtedly turn them even more hostile against Western ships, but again, I think it's necessary we address the problem with gun boat diplomacy and force of arms.

I'm going to ghast your flabber a bit more Don. :yes:

The point about varying ports not allowing armed guards on ships is a truism. How can I put it? Imagine an Iranian container ship docking in, say, New York. The port authorities board her to examine the manifest. On board they find 50 Iranian Revolutionary Guards armed to the teeth. What do you think would be the attitude of New York Port Authority? Never mind the CIA/FBI.

Husar also has a point about no jobs. I read somewhere that since the country disolved into anarchy, foreign fishing fleets, EU, Indian, Chinese etc. have moved into the vacuum and basically raped the ocean of fish. Many of these pirates are former fishermen. So the article said. Now I don't know if that's true or not but it would seem to make sense.

If it is true, then we in the west bear some culpability for this. Things are often not as black and white as they first appear.

I'll try to dig up the article, it may take some time. I'm a prolific reader of the t'interwebs. :sweatdrop:

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

I have absolutely no way to respond to viewpoints like this. You're a nice guy Husar, I've come to appreciate your views over the years, but the above... you could tell me you eat bugs and I'd be less flabbergasted.

How do you defend the kidnappers? How do you blame the U.S. for protecting its sailors?

As for countries that would deny port entry to ships that actually capitalize on their right to defend themselves.... perhaps we're better off not trading with such self-loathing people with no instinct to survive.

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This attitude seems highly pompous and arrogant. You are acting as if these pirates are not humans themselves, with a side to tell. Piracy is the only way for many in that region to live a decent quality of life, they are not to be looked as monsters.

As for telling countries to **** off because they refuse for others to bring guns into their ports...well I really don't know what to say to that.

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

:thumbsdown:

Well, we knew it was only a matter of time:

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Yeah, a shame we didn't solve this earlier when we had the chance.

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The one thing I'm certain he won't do is exactly what we need to do.... stage 2 or 3 SEAL team raids on a couple of known operating bases in Somalia.

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Remember the last time we sent a spec-ops unit into Somalia? This is a problem that can't be solved by simply blowing a few ports up.

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No, he won't even allow U.S. merchant marines to use firearms to defend themselves. While the pirates attack the crew with AK-47's and RPGs, Obama's answer to the crew... use fire hoses. Yeah, that seems like a fair fight.:wall::wall::wall:

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That's funny, I never read anything about Obama saying "Guns on ships are no-no's" (Which, according to Husar, is true in ports). Unless you're trying to make some anti-Obama point, which I hope to God you aren't.

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Disgusting. It will provoke and accelerate and embolden further aggression against the United States around the world. Why doesn't Rahm Emmanuel loan his concrete cojones to Obama in moments like these? :thumbsdown:

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Oh please, it's just now become a problem because it was an American flagged ship? Is it somehow now something we need to deal with because she flew the Stars and Stripes? Tell that to the crew of the MV Faina, who had to wait 5 months while a number of war vessels were right by to assist, but instead had to wait in fear for their lives for a ransom to be paid.

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Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name

This attitude seems highly pompous and arrogant. You are acting as if these pirates are not humans themselves, with a side to tell. Piracy is the only way for many in that region to live a decent quality of life, they are not to be looked as monsters.

As for telling countries to **** off because they refuse for others to bring guns into their ports...well I really don't know what to say to that.

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Defending yourself is highly pompous and arrogant?

And no Karl, it didnt just become a problem. It just became a problem for us. And its going to get really bad, really quickly, because of the way we've chosen to handle it.

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

Defending yourself is highly pompous and arrogant?

And no Karl, it didnt just become a problem. It just became a problem for us. And its going to get really bad, really quickly, because of the way we've chosen to handle it.

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Asking someone how could they even think of supporting the pirates is a bit pompous, yes.

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

And no Karl, it didnt just become a problem. It just became a problem for us. And its going to get really bad, really quickly, because of the way we've chosen to handle it.

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No, it's always been a problem, for everyone. Unless you're fine with other ships being hijacked because they aren't American. I think that's shameful to just now consider piracy as a threat to the United States, and only the United States, without any regard to the numerous other nationalities who have suffered from it.

Step 1: Behead pirates
Step 2: Put heads on USS Lexington.

There not only have we taken care of the problem but we look BA

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

Step 1: Behead pirates
Step 2: Put heads on USS Constitution.

There not only have we taken care of the problem but we look BA

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Fixed. What better way to display the heads of pirates than on the ship that participated in pirate wars?

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Originally Posted by KarlXII

No, it's always been a problem, for everyone. Unless you're fine with other ships being hijacked because they aren't American. I think that's shameful to just now consider piracy as a threat to the United States, and only the United States, without any regard to the numerous other nationalities who have suffered from it.

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I think you misunderstood me. When a Japanese ship get siezed, it is the responsiblity and right of the nation of Japan to determine how to proceed. If they ask for our help, then we might intervene, but it's not our place to jump into their affairs uninvited.

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

I think you misunderstood me. When a Japanese ship get siezed, it is the responsiblity and right of the nation of Japan to determine how to proceed. If they ask for our help, then we might intervene, but it's not our place to jump into their affairs uninvited.

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This isn't about a nation's affairs. This is about international piracy.

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but it's not our place to jump into their affairs uninvited

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Hasn't stopped us before.

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Originally Posted by KarlXII

Hasn't stopped us before.

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That doesn't mean we should continue that policy.

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Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name

That doesn't mean we should continue that policy.

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So are you pro or anti beheading?

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

So are you pro or anti beheading?

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My stance on this is that since it is now our problem we should look on stopping pirates from appearing in the first place, not just killing them whenever they pop up. The fact that there is pirates plaguing the sea does not mean we should do something, we should not be the world's police.

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Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name

My stance on this is that since it is now our problem we should look on stopping pirates from appearing in the first place, not just killing them whenever they pop up. The fact that there is pirates plaguing the sea does not mean we should do something, we should not be the world's police.

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So...pro?

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Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name

My stance on this is that since it is now our problem we should look on stopping pirates from appearing in the first place, not just killing them whenever they pop up. The fact that there is pirates plaguing the sea does not mean we should do something, we should not be the world's police.

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It has always been our problem. Remember Article V of the North Atlantic Treaty, of which the United States signed, that states an attack on one member is an attack on all members. It hasn't been an exclusively US problem, but it has been a US problem.

European tankers attacked

Norwegians attacked.

Unless you'd like to explain why the United States should not adhere to it's own signed treaties, then my point stands.

First of all, I have to hand it to the pirates for actually having the brass ones to attack a United States ship in the first place. Every single aspect of this story oozes awesome, including the US crewmen's retaking of the ship.

However, in all seriousness, I think it speaks more of the situation in Somalia than the state of US affairs. Throughout history, major powers have let minor flies buzz by without expending the resources necessary to swat them. The pirates' situation is just another example.

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Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars

The sailors have retaken control of the ship of their own accord.

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Personally, I thought this was the most important part of the unfolding story. Very Flight 93, yanno?

When the chips are down, and the cavalry ain't coming any time soon, or the government, or the Navy, or the Marines, or the cops, or anybody else... the average groups of americans will take matters into their own hands, take charge and settle accounts... damn the outcome.

Well you know...we could have supported a relatively stable regime of their choosing... that would have been able to actually do something about this, but I guess Islamic Fundamentalism just isn't as good enough a choice as compared to rampant Warlord-ism, and Anarchy.

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Originally Posted by KarlXII

European tankers attacked

Norwegians attacked.

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...Are you saying Norwegians aren't European? :P

Wanna fix the problem with Somali pirates? Fix the problems with Somalia. :juggle: Trying to blast them one at a time isn't going to stop them when the average pirate just needs one or two good hauls to set him for life. Humans are pretty easy to tempt, even when faced with terrible odds of survival, when they have little to nothing to lose.

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

I think you misunderstood me. When a Japanese ship get siezed, it is the responsiblity and right of the nation of Japan to determine how to proceed. If they ask for our help, then we might intervene, but it's not our place to jump into their affairs uninvited.

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It's the responsibility of all nations. Piracy is what is known as a universal crime. What's buggering it all up is what to do with them once you've captured them. Believe it or not, most times they are set free.

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Originally Posted by InsaneApache

What's buggering it all up is what to do with them once you've captured them. Believe it or not, most times they are set free.

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How about if they're set free a few miles out to sea?

Ajax

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I have absolutely no way to respond to viewpoints like this.

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Is that because it makes sense ?

So with have two current examples , one followed the guidelines set out and one didn't , one ship is sailing on its way with crew and cargo safe and intact , one is missing its captain .
So who got it right ?
The Isreali crew who rigged water hoses , lights and barbed wire so they drove off the pirates or the American crew who fought back without ensuring that all crew were safe .

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Obama's answer to the crew... use fire hoses. Yeah, that seems like a fair fight.

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Leaving aside that those guidlines predate Obama by years.....
It worked for the Isrealis didn't it .:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

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As for countries that would deny port entry to ships that actually capitalize on their right to defend themselves.... perhaps we're better off not trading with such self-loathing people with no instinct to survive.

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Its the international law of the sea and right of innocent passage Don , you know the same international law that makes Piracy illegal .


So I hope now that The American sailors efforts backfired that the US forces in the area to fight piracy under international law follow the French Navies example of how to do things and don't screw up badly like the Indian Navy did .

For some reason, the Pompey solution springs to mind. Scour the coasts and their hinterlands, then settle the pirates inland and provide them with a living that doesn't involve piracy. Reshape for modern realities and sensibilities.

O/T.

I see the early release scheme has kicked in Tribes. :laugh4:

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Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro

It's a danish ship I believe

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Which allows me to combine this thread with several others. Denmark alone can not protect its economic interests globally. Two dozen small and medium sized countries, however, can when they have the political will to cooperate:

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Deeply concerned by the outbreak of acts of piracy and armed robbery off the Somali coast, the European Union launched military operation EU NAVFOR Somalia (operation "Atalanta"), which is conducted in support of UN Security Council Resolutions 1814 (2008), 1816 (2008), 1838 (2008) and 1846 (2008) in order to contribute to:
the protection of vessels of the WFP (World Food Programme) delivering food aid to displaced persons in Somalia; the protection of vulnerable vessels cruising off the Somali coast, and the deterrence, prevention and repression of acts of piracy and armed robbery off the Somali coast.

Operation EU NAVFOR reached its Initial Operational Capability on 13 December 2008.

This operation, which is the first EU maritime operation, is conducted in the framework of the European Security and Defence Policy (ESDP).

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EU.

The US, Russia and China, and several others, are employing armed escorts as well. Which is excellent. Nonetheless, 'shoot them' is as much a complete solution to Somalian piracy as 'shoot them' is an answer to street muggins.

Video of French commandos venturing deep inland to shoot pirate. :pirate2:

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

I have absolutely no way to respond to viewpoints like this.

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See Tribesey's response. ~;)

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

You're a nice guy Husar, I've come to appreciate your views over the years, but the above... you could tell me you eat bugs and I'd be less flabbergasted.

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Bah, I wouldn't like eating bugs. Bugs are disgusting and small, unlike african men.

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

How do you defend the kidnappers? How do you blame the U.S. for protecting its sailors?

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I'm not defending the kidnappers, I'm saying you should not carpet bomb villages because some people were kidnapped. It's not like the pirates are bloodthirsty monsters who eat bugs and then the kidnapped people after receiving the money. They're a bunch of guys who have no jobs but little boats so they think they can make some money off these rich westerners who come buy with expensive ships that they afforded by selling ressources they got out of the pirates' country. Yes, they do fumble around with sticks and shoot rockets but that just shows how insecure they are because they are afraid someone on the ship might use a water hose on them otherwise. They play big gorilla to scare their prey because otherwise they don't have a chance, that a bunch of sailor can overwhelm them or scare them away now and then just reinforces that.

Starting a bloody campaign of death and destruction over some hurt pride was never something I support, pride is a completely artificial(/superficial) idea that does not warrant bloodshed at all IMO.
It may hurt a bit to take a beating now and then but if you respond calmly you will grow on it, remember what Jesus did when Paul cut off the ear of a soldier who came to arrest Jesus.
You don't spread the love with carpet bombing and village raids.

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

As for countries that would deny port entry to ships that actually capitalize on their right to defend themselves.... perhaps we're better off not trading with such self-loathing people with no instinct to survive.

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So you support a policy of complete isolation? ~;)

Well, I don't actually have any data at hand but I can imagine a lot of ports would not like a bunch of armed guys running around, especially not in Europe and IA also gave a good example.

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Originally Posted by Husar

I'm not defending the kidnappers, I'm saying you should not carpet bomb villages because some people were kidnapped. It's not like the pirates are bloodthirsty monsters who eat bugs and then the kidnapped people after receiving the money. They're a bunch of guys who have no jobs but little boats so they think they can make some money off these rich westerners who come buy with expensive ships that they afforded by selling ressources they got out of the pirates' country. Yes, they do fumble around with sticks and shoot rockets but that just shows how insecure they are because they are afraid someone on the ship might use a water hose on them otherwise. They play big gorilla to scare their prey because otherwise they don't have a chance, that a bunch of sailor can overwhelm them or scare them away now and then just reinforces that.

Starting a bloody campaign of death and destruction over some hurt pride was never something I support, pride is a completely artificial(/superficial) idea that does not warrant bloodshed at all IMO.
It may hurt a bit to take a beating now and then but if you respond calmly you will grow on it, remember what Jesus did when Paul cut off the ear of a soldier who came to arrest Jesus.
You don't spread the love with carpet bombing and village raids.

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So, we've taken all their resources and they have a right to try to take them back? :inquisitive:

Not buying into that. Not in favor of carpet bombing and the like, but focused violence probably IS part of the answer to curbing piracy a bit. I was never a fan of the "pay them off/appeasement" strategy, despite its historical tradition.

If news reports are accurate, things should be coming to a boil today or tomorrow. I wonder if the resolution will free any other hostages and vessels.

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Phillips is one of about 270 hostages being held at the moment by Somali pirates, who have been plying the busy sea-lanes of the Gulf of Aden and Indian Ocean for years.

They are keeping 18 captured vessels at or near lairs on the Somali coast -- five of them taken since the weekend alone.

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All I can say is: if I were Sergeant Major of the US Marine Corps, which organization was founded to fight piracy - I'd be gnashing my teeth. Heck, I'm NOT Sergeant Major of the Marine Corps Carlton Kent, and I'm still gnashing my teeth.

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

So, we've taken all their resources and they have a right to try to take them back? :inquisitive:

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Well, a man from Texas apparently had the right to shoot some guys who took his neighbor's ressources, weren't even his own ressources.

Unlike on land where random groups with guns in some areas of the world are commonplace (Iraq, Afghanistan, LA), small ships miles off the coast with gangs of armed men aren't.

Even if the fishing boats used to extend the range are more ambiguous these can be searched, and the smaller boats hundreds of miles off the coast with no other reason than banditry should be sunk.

If retaliation is only on the water the message is clear: banditry in the sea = death. Trying to attack on land will only imply that you might as well attack the ships for human shields as if you don't Delta Force / SAS / hellfire drones are only a matter of time.

~:smoking:

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

Is that because it makes sense ?

So with have two current examples , one followed the guidelines set out and one didn't , one ship is sailing on its way with crew and cargo safe and intact , one is missing its captain .
So who got it right ?
The Isreali crew who rigged water hoses , lights and barbed wire so they drove off the pirates or the American crew who fought back without ensuring that all crew were safe .

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My God, Tribesman is using a group of Israelis as a positive example in his posts, I thought I'd never see the day.

Husar:

My point was that sympathy for their condition should be irrelevant to the decision to stop piracy.

In our own countries, YOUR comparative poverty is not an acceptable excuse for you walking into some posh bloke's garage and driving off with his car. It may very well explain your motivation, it may spark some interest in reducing poverty in general, but it does not and cannot excuse the crime itself.

Piracy must be treated as a crime against all and must be pursued vigorously by all. Using electronic surveillance and other means, we need to identify pirate physical and personnel assets and remove them (not carpet bomb an 80% uninvolved fishing village for the actions of 3 families who live there) via destruction, confiscation or incarceration.

Seamus:

My point was not that they have a right to piracy but that there may be other solutions instead of bloodshed, like actually giving the people in that country other ways to earn money.
What they are doing is certainly not right but they usually do not kill anyone, yet everybody here wants to see them dead, that seems quite a harsh punishment to me in relation to the crime.
a kidnapper on land would not be shot on sight either, or would she? :inquisitive:

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Originally Posted by Husar

Seamus:

My point was not that they have a right to piracy but that there may be other solutions instead of bloodshed, like actually giving the people in that country other ways to earn money.
What they are doing is certainly not right but they usually do not kill anyone, yet everybody here wants to see them dead, that seems quite a harsh punishment to me in relation to the crime.
a kidnapper on land would not be shot on sight either, or would she? :inquisitive:

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Rehabilitating everyone on the planet isn't economically possible.

They've chosen to break the law rather than sort out their cesspit of a country.

Call it a Darwin award or cleaning garbage, but the world is a slightly better place where they are fish food.

~:smoking:

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Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

Rehabilitating everyone on the planet isn't economically possible.

They've chosen to break the law rather than sort out their cesspit of a country.

Call it a Darwin award or cleaning garbage, but the world is a slightly better place where they are fish food.

~:smoking:

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So you support the death penalty for thieves as well because they chose to become criminals rather than sorting out their cesspit of a life?

Just shoot them, you sissies. Third French attack on pirates, happening as we speak.

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French hostages freed off Somalia

The families on board the Tanit were warned of the danger of pirate attacks
One French hostage has died and four others have been freed in a rescue operation by French troops on a yacht off Somalia, French officials say.

Two pirates were killed in the operation and three were captured, the French presidency said. Officials said the rescue was launched when talks with the pirates broke down and threats became "more specific".



"With the threats becoming more and more specific, the pirates refusing the offers made to them and the [yacht] heading towards the coast, an operation to free the hostages was decided upon," the president's spokesman said.

Mr Morin said his country had shown determination to oppose piracy.

"France has shown its determination not to give in to blackmail, [to] prosecute the criminal acts and liberate the hostages every time that a ship under a French flag is captured," he said.

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Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

Rehabilitating everyone on the planet isn't economically possible.

They've chosen to break the law rather than sort out their cesspit of a country.

Call it a Darwin award or cleaning garbage, but the world is a slightly better place where they are fish food.

~:smoking:

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This is very true. They can help fix their own country and be part of the solution instead of the problem.

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My God, Tribesman

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Yes my son ?

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Even if the fishing boats used to extend the range are more ambiguous these can be searched, and the smaller boats hundreds of miles off the coast with no other reason than banditry should be sunk.

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The problem there is that you are talking about a vast area with thousands of ships/boats in it only a minute proportion of which are engaged in illegal stuff .
There are very few warships to cover that huge area (and they are not co-ordinated in their operations) . They cannot board and search all the vessels and they can't really identify the dodgy ones until they do something dodgy .
Plus of course as the EU and US naval forces have said , modern navigation aids are benefitting the pirates , they only have to bother watching for vessels they might want to attack and vessels they really want to avoid being anywhere near , while the navies have to watch everything that floats .

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

Just shoot them, you sissies. Third French attack on pirates, happening as we speak.

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Good for the French.:bow: Enough of this "buns up kneeling" to a bunch of criminals. Confront them, catch them, demand their surrender...prosecute them, and if you must, kill them. They're in the pirate business strictly for the money not to kill people or make a political statement, so stop making this crime pay so well. Eventually most will seek a new career choice.

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Florent Lemacon and his wife Chloe were "repeatedly warned" not to travel through the area.

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Yet they did .

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"It is difficult to understand why these warnings were not heeded,"

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No it isn't , look....

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We don't want our child to receive the sort of education that the government is concocting for us.

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...they didn't like what the government had to say about things so obviously they woudn't listen if the government told them not to do something .

So the question is .....

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It is unclear whether Mr Lemacon was killed by his captors, or by a stray French bullet.

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Whats the opinion ? A French bullet for being an idiot ?~;)

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

Not in favor of carpet bombing and the like, but focused violence probably IS part of the answer to curbing piracy a bit.

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Why is it always about curbing piracy? Am I the only one here who cares about the future of the earth?
We Need Moar Piratz!!

Ajax

I was wondering, how accurate would snipers be if stationed on those destroyers? I mean 4 pirates in a boat and maybe 4 snipers on the ship would take care of the situation? Or is the wind too unpredictable for this?

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Originally Posted by FactionHeir

I was wondering, how accurate would snipers be if stationed on those destroyers? I mean 4 pirates in a boat and maybe 4 snipers on the ship would take care of the situation? Or is the wind too unpredictable for this?

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That's 4 near-simultaneous shots, all of which must incapacitate their targets, from a moving object to another moving object at a considerable distance. I'm guessing the difficulty factor is pretty well up there. Moreover, the heavy sniper rifles that would provide the best stability of shot at the ranges in question are heavy enough to go through a target to hit the person -- maybe a merchie captain -- behind it.

Not undoable, but I think we're talking a very tough call and fairly steep difficulty factor.

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

That's 4 near-simultaneous shots, all of which must incapacitate their targets, from a moving object to another moving object at a considerable distance. I'm guessing the difficulty factor is pretty well up there. Moreover, the heavy sniper rifles that would provide the best stability of shot at the ranges in question are heavy enough to go through a target to hit the person -- maybe a merchie captain -- behind it.

Not undoable, but I think we're talking a very tough call and fairly steep difficulty factor.

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S.E.A.L.S. I've known (sounds like a memoir, don' it?:)) used to train rigorously for such up-close-and-personal contingencies on the water. I wonder what they're doing now?

A personal anecdote: at work today, the workroom floor (populated by about 20 formerly-active Marines, amongst we few Army, Navy & AF 'formers') were livid at the seeming inaction, LOUDLY. For once, management did not impose a gag order. Smart move, I thought, as I sorted mail to 3101 Clarence Street.

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

That's 4 near-simultaneous shots, all of which must incapacitate their targets, from a moving object to another moving object at a considerable distance. I'm guessing the difficulty factor is pretty well up there. Moreover, the heavy sniper rifles that would provide the best stability of shot at the ranges in question are heavy enough to go through a target to hit the person -- maybe a merchie captain -- behind it.

Not undoable, but I think we're talking a very tough call and fairly steep difficulty factor.

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Plus, there are big waves. And the pirates are riding a small ship, which makes it a difficult target from far away. Meanwhile, pirates could fire RPGs at large tankers.

I think he meant snipe them on the merchant ship but I think it would never work, too much movement and those ships are usually not glass pavillions with windows everywhere.

And even then I thought in hostage situations you usually negotiate first before you open fire, I don't know why a bunch of bank robbers get a negotiation but somehow when it all happens on a ship everybody goes around screaming kill, kill, we want blood! Or is it just because those guys are somalian sub-humans who don't deserve a negotiation or arrest? :inquisitive:

I agree with Hosakawa Tito here, try to arrest them, but only kill when necessary.

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Originally Posted by Shaka_Khan

Plus, there are big waves. And the pirates are riding a small ship, which makes it a difficult target from far away. Meanwhile, pirates could fire RPGs at large tankers.

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You may be right about the waves, I haven't been assiduously tracking local sea conditions and such.

As to the RPG's, that's a non-starter. The USN will have warned all ships to steer clear of the situation AND an RPG wouldn't do a lot beyond scratching the paint on a VLCC. The RPG's are a threat to the crew of the vessel at close range, not to the vessel itself. The chances of a "golden bee-bee" shot from and RPG crippling a VLCC are almost incalcuable.

Here's another interesting development.

Now they can bag the lot. There is technology out there *since the early 90's* that can disable a vehicle's engine using high voltage radio frequency, seems like a perfect use for it. Disable the ships, using the SEAL teams, and wait them out. Offer the pirates a turkey bologna sammich and a bottle of Dasani for each hostage released. When they get hungry & thirsty enough they will comply. Allowing them to leave the area is not an option. Stop the lucrative ransom merry-go-round and this type of criminal activity will wither on the vine.

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Underscoring the high stakes involved, France’s navy freed a sailboat seized off Somalia last week by other pirates, but one of the hostages was killed, along with two of the bandits. Three pirates were captured. In Paris, Armed Forces Chief of Staff Jean-Louis Georgelin dismissed the notion of coordination between the French and Americans on the two incidents.

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Hopefully, this is untrue or soon to be remedied. All the major nation's navies patrolling this area must coordinate their efforts to be truly effective.

So this argument boils down to either:
"We prevent piracy by inserting troops into Somalia to prevent them from launching ships to grab international ships" versus "We prevent piracy by reforming Somalia".

Either way we call in the Marines.

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Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name

This attitude seems highly pompous and arrogant. You are acting as if these pirates are not humans themselves, with a side to tell. Piracy is the only way for many in that region to live a decent quality of life, they are not to be looked as monsters.

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i don't care about their rights, sailors should have great leeway to use all necessary force to preserve themselves and their vessels from piracy.

I'm sure slave traders also had a story to tell about how the money helped pay off their son's gambling debts and secure their daughter's dowry... ~:mecry:

Some things to help:

Convoys. Group friendlies together.
Some sort of system that informs the "good ships where they are in the ocean"... GPS possibly? With unique ID tags. These days they can be dynamically changed by the hour.

This is one time when acting together would make life oh so much easier. All ships tell one repository the information that is then relayed to the taskforce.

You might have the occasional time a system malfunctions, but then what about calling the ship to ask?
You might get a time that the systems malfunction so much that all comms are dead. Then investigate.


Suddenly "suspicious" ships go from possibly all to the pirates plus maybe a couple. Cross reference the suspicious ones with known friendly signals that have suddenly gone dead and these are either under attack or need help in any case.

How hot are engines at night (or duringt he day for that matter) for an IR satellite?
How far can radar sweep for contacts?

With one lot of ships keeping the friendlies safe and the faster ones hunting with the aid of satellites and drones to extend the range you'd quickly cut down on those taken and also those that are killed.

Do we have to relearn the lessons every time there's a naval war? Last time the enemy was underwater and the area was the North Atlantic! SORT THIS OUT :wall:

~:smoking:

If I was a somali, I'd be a pirate! At least I have no moral qualms about being one. And why should I?

They're poor people who steal money from the rich at no risk to themselves. Who has moral issues with that?

The argument that we should arm ships is idiotic. Let's say I'm a captain of a merchant ship. The pirates never harm me. All they do is take money that isn't mine. Any reason why I should care about that? However, if I try shooting at them, they will of course shoot back and maybe kill me. So, for no gain, I put my life at risk. Lose-lose.

I work at a shop. There's no way I'll ever fight back if I get robbed. Honestly, they don't even need a weapon to rob me, all they need to say is that they want to register, and I'll hand it over in a second. It's not my money, so I see absolutely no reason to care. My life and my safety is worth more than a few bucks.

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Originally Posted by Hosakawa Tito

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Underscoring the high stakes involved, France’s navy freed a sailboat seized off Somalia last week by other pirates, but one of the hostages was killed, along with two of the bandits. Three pirates were captured. In Paris, Armed Forces Chief of Staff Jean-Louis Georgelin dismissed the notion of coordination between the French and Americans on the two incidents.

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Hopefully, this is untrue or soon to be remedied. All the major nation's navies patrolling this area must coordinate their efforts to be truly effective.

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It is my understanding that there is plenty of international coordination between at least the EU and US navies. And probably with others as well.

I think Jean-Louis Georgelin is referring to the fact that the three French military actions over the past few months themselves have been French solo efforts, without foreign cooperation.

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Originally Posted by Rory

Do we have to relearn the lessons every time there's a naval war? Last time the enemy was underwater and the area was the North Atlantic! SORT THIS OUT

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In a rare show of sanity, the EU placed its mission in the Somali waters under command of the British navy, headed by Phillips. It always pleases me when European nationalist sentiment is cast aside for sanity and reason. Let everybody do what they're good at. :2thumbsup:

We were kinda hoping you lot would know just what to do though...:sweatdrop:


To link this to another thread, Norway joined the EU for this mission. Excellent. More bizarrely, the Swiss navy joined as well...~:confused:

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Hopefully, this is untrue or soon to be remedied.

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Don't be silly , co-ordination is pretty much non existant and if France again publicises the opening of its local bases to the US then they will get the backlash .

:pirate2:

:7ninja: We could send ninjas to fight them! :7ninja:

:7pirate:

So on the next international talk like a pirate day, can I expect all of you to talk arabic? ~D

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So on the next international talk like a pirate day, can I expect all of you to talk arabic?

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Do you mean Somali , especially in the areas concerned and in the areas of Yemen where they run the financial side

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

If I was a somali, I'd be a pirate! At least I have no moral qualms about being one. And why should I?

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and if i were a ship owner with a way to defend myself i would happily pull the trigger when your 'fishing' boat hove into view.

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Somalia, like all maritime countries, has legal rights over an exclusive economic zone that extends 200 nautical miles to sea. And though it has no navy to enforce its control, it theoretically owns the fish and minerals in that area.

Many of Somalia's angry fishermen have picked up rifles and joined the pirate mafias that have seized more than two dozen vessels off the Somali coast so far this year, maritime security experts say.

"It's almost like a resource swap," said Peter Lehr, a Somalia piracy expert at the University of St. Andrews in Scotland and the editor of "Violence at Sea: Piracy in the Age of Global Terrorism." "Somalis collect up to $100 million a year from pirate ransoms off their coasts. And the Europeans and Asians poach around $300 million a year in fish from Somali waters."

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Personally, I say good for the pirates :fishing:

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Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro

Personally, I say good for the pirates :fishing:

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They're Africans, they should sit and do as there told. /some people

Although piracy is piracy and should be treated as such.

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

They're Africans, they should sit and do as there told. /some people

Although piracy is piracy and should be treated as such.

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Well, should we sink all the poachers too? If you don't want to get pirated, sail around the other way.

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Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro

Well, should we sink all the poachers too? If you don't want to get pirated, sail around the other way.

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I agree.

Are they poachers? There's no government, so who would they pay the money to?

Fairer would be to have a "pirate tax" to pay for the warships.

~:smoking:

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Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

Are they poachers? There's no government, so who would they pay the money to?

Fairer would be to have a "pirate tax" to pay for the warships.

~:smoking:

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So if you aren't near your car, and thus I can't pay you money for it, can I steal it?

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I'm not defending the kidnappers, I'm saying you should not carpet bomb villages because some people were kidnapped. It's not like the pirates are bloodthirsty monsters who eat bugs and then the kidnapped people after receiving the money. They're a bunch of guys who have no jobs but little boats so they think they can make some money off these rich westerners who come buy with expensive ships that they afforded by selling ressources they got out of the pirates' country. Yes, they do fumble around with sticks and shoot rockets but that just shows how insecure they are because they are afraid someone on the ship might use a water hose on them otherwise. They play big gorilla to scare their prey because otherwise they don't have a chance, that a bunch of sailor can overwhelm them or scare them away now and then just reinforces that.

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Do you really believe that?!

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I work at a shop. There's no way I'll ever fight back if I get robbed. Honestly, they don't even need a weapon to rob me, all they need to say is that they want to register, and I'll hand it over in a second. It's not my money, so I see absolutely no reason to care. My life and my safety is worth more than a few bucks.

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That money pays your wage.

The ports banning arms is frustrating, but not surprising, considering the governments around the world.

Even more frustrating is France being so much more proactive than the US. We've got a warship right next to the pirate ship - why not simply 'negotiate' the release of the hostage in exchange for allowing the pirates to live? Which is basically what happens at bank robberies.

This problem is just going to get worse. I'm decidedly in favor of gunboat diplomacy.

CR

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Originally Posted by Furunculus

and if i were a ship owner with a way to defend myself i would happily pull the trigger when your 'fishing' boat hove into view.

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If you were a ship owner, you would been a thousand miles away from the ship and wouldn't do anything about it.

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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

That money pays your wage.

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If a boss expects his employees to risk their lives/safety to defend a couple of bucks, I would've quit instantly. Fortunately, I have a sane boss who expects me to hand over the cash as fast as possible, and leave the rest of the stuff to the proper authorities, ie. the police. He's insured anyway, and a couple of thousand NOK is nothing when the yearly turnover is 700 million....

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

If a boss expects his employees to risk their lives/safety to defend a couple of bucks, I would've quit instantly. Fortunately, I have a sane boss who expects me to hand over the cash as fast as possible, and leave the rest of the stuff to the proper authorities, ie. the police. He's insured anyway, and a couple of thousand NOK is nothing when the yearly turnover is 700 million....

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If your boss expects you to defend her property, she should compensate you appropriately to that level of risk. Fair's fair.

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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

Even more frustrating is France being so much more proactive than the US. We've got a warship right next to the pirate ship - why not simply 'negotiate' the release of the hostage in exchange for allowing the pirates to live?

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The Founding Fathers faced exactly the same question, although on a much larger scale. Their solution? Pay the ransom. Oh, there was a lot more to it than that, but the upshot was hostages, failed rescue attempts (resulting in more hostages), bribes, treaty, payments.

We gonna party like it's 1805!

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

To link this to another thread, Norway joined the EU for this mission. Excellent. More bizarrely, the Swiss navy joined as well...~:confused:

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This I want to see.

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

Do you mean Somali , especially in the areas concerned and in the areas of Yemen where they run the financial side

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I wanted to say that first but then I thought they probably just speak arabic and tried to be clever, but it was a lose/lose situation for an ignorant yuropeen like me anyway I guess.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

If you were a ship owner, you would been a thousand miles away from the ship and wouldn't do anything about it.

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pedantry. but if you wish me to rephrase it for you:
"and if i were a ships captain with a way to defend myself i would happily pull the trigger when your 'fishing' boat hove into view."

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Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro

So if you aren't near your car, and thus I can't pay you money for it, can I steal it?

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If I own a parking space, and there's an unlocked car present with keys in the ignition and no owner, you're free to drive off in it.

~:smoking:

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

If your boss expects you to defend her property, she should compensate you appropriately to that level of risk. Fair's fair.

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There are better ways to defend property. Like avoid getting robbed in the first place ~;) The focus here in Norway is on avoiding robberies completely, if a robbery takes place anyway, then it's a FAIL, might as well hand over everything. Rule number 1 of the "not getting robbed"-school, is of course to never have any significant amount of cash. If people know we don't have any cash, they see no point in robbing us. And there's even less reason to play hero if you do get robbed.

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pedantry. but if you wish me to rephrase it for you:
"and if i were a ships captain with a way to defend myself i would happily pull the trigger when your 'fishing' boat hove into view."

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If you were a ships captain, why would you want to get shot in a situation where you're not going to suffer yourself?

Drop the tough guy-face, please. Let's see, you're a captain. You have a wife and children at home. Your employer won't care if he gets robbed, and will pay your ransom quickly. Why on earth would you turn a smooth situation into one where your kids might end up without a father?