COEUR D'ALENE, Idaho – The Aryan Nations has returned to northern Idaho with what it is calling a "world headquarters" and a recruitment campaign.
Coeur d'Alene resident Jerald O'Brien, who has a large swastika tattoo on his scalp, is one of the leaders of the white supremacist group and said he expects membership to grow because of the election of President Barack Obama.
He told The Spokesman-Review newspaper that the president is the "greatest recruiting tool ever."
Residents of a Coeur d'Alene subdivision found recruitment fliers on their lawns Friday and O'Brien said more fliers will be distributed. He said the group has "several handfuls" of members in the city.
The fliers show a young girl asking her father "Why did those dark men take mommy away?"
But many in the region reject the group.
"I saw Aryan Nations and put it in the trash," said Garvin Jones. "What's wrong with these people? Give me a break. I bet if you went back in their family history, not one is 100 percent white."
The newspaper reported that most people interviewed about the fliers declined to be identified for fear of retribution.
The Aryan Nations had a compound in northern Idaho until 2000, when the group lost a $6.3 million civil judgment in favor of two people who sued after being attacked by Aryan Nations' members.
The Kootenai County Task Force on Human Relations has fought the Aryan Nations for decades and is offering its services to anyone threatened or harassed by the group.
"It's bound to be a small group of people trying once again to bring hate into the community," said Tony Stewart, a spokesman for the task force. "They don't have anywhere to operate from except a post office box."
O'Brien said he regularly flies two white supremacist flags outside his home on the east side of the city.
The newspaper reported that its files show O'Brien marching in a neo-Nazi parade in Coeur d'Alene in July 2004 and joining in a skinhead rally that drew eight people outside the Spokane County courthouse in Spokane, Wash., in June 2007.
O'Brien said he and Michael Lombard have taken over the group following longtime leader Richard Butler, who died in 2004.
The fliers are signed "Aryan Nations, Church of Jesus Christ Christian." O'Brien and Lombard are listed on the group's Web site as "pastors."
At least two residents who received the fliers called the Coeur d'Alene Police Department. Sgt. Christie Wood said no investigation is planned because distribution of fliers is protected free speech.
Quote:
The newspaper reported that its files show O'Brien marching in a neo-Nazi parade in Coeur d'Alene in July 2004 and joining in a skinhead rally that drew eight people outside the Spokane County courthouse in Spokane, Wash., in June 2007.
Perhaps the only bright spot of the entire article. It gives me great hope and pleasure to see the hateful little people dare not show their faces in public in any significant number. I hope that they don't have any problems with their genetic line deteriorating due to "racial purity" and inbreeding. Or, wait... no that would actually be welcome. Perhaps they can engage in that behavior so much that they turn the same color as their bedsheets, and become just as limp, wrinkled, and ratty. I know I'm going out on quite a limb here and taking such a risky moral stand (sarcasm) but I strongly dislike supremacist groups, and wish that they would all board a nice ship and set sail for another land to live in... perhaps some tropical island where they will be able to preserve their racial purity all they like while they slowly cook themselves a nice shade of brown from the warm, bright sunlight, and become the very thing they claim to oppose. And then, when their island gets a wave of malaria-filled mosquitoes one spring, they can beg some African nation for assistance, because they won't get any from me.
:grin:
Tell you what; if they are allowed to express their hatred of non-whites, I can express my desire to deport them and imagine nasty things happening to them by accident. And I'll kindly retract those statements if they renounce their racial hatred.
04-19-2009, 00:37
Rhyfelwyr
Re: I laugh in the face of White Supremacist groups
oops double post
04-19-2009, 00:38
Rhyfelwyr
Re: I laugh in the face of White Supremacist groups
Don't denounce them all as hateful, some of them might actually believe in their 'cause'. Of course, if they actually believe in this cause, then either they know something we don't or they are misguided.
"Why did those dark men take mommy away?"
lol :laugh4:
04-19-2009, 00:40
Alexander the Pretty Good
Re: I laugh in the face of White Supremacist groups
Quote:
The fliers show a young girl asking her father "Why did those dark men take mommy away?"
I didn't realize white supremacist groups were so big on non sequitur.
04-19-2009, 00:41
Samurai Waki
Re: I laugh in the face of White Supremacist groups
Hmmm... I wasn't aware that the Aryan Nation had actually stopped recruiting. The only problem I can see with their little "I have returned!" Theory, is that no-one except for those with something less than half a brain will actually join.
I seem to remember the People in Couer D'Alene/Spokane were quite happy to see them go.
04-19-2009, 00:44
Askthepizzaguy
Re: I laugh in the face of White Supremacist groups
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr
Don't denounce them all as hateful, some of them might actually believe in their 'cause'. Of course, if they actually believe in this cause, then either they know something we don't or they are misguided.
"Why did those dark men take mommy away?"
lol :laugh4:
They can believe in their cause all they like; but their cause is stated factually as thinking non-whites are lower than them. That's *expletive deleted, expletive deleted, expletive deleted, expletive deleted, expletive deleted, expletive deleted, expletive deleted, expletive deleted, expletive deleted, expletive deleted* stupid at best, and hateful at worst
04-19-2009, 01:09
Rhyfelwyr
Re: I laugh in the face of White Supremacist groups
Quote:
Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy
They can believe in their cause all they like; but their cause is stated factually as thinking non-whites are lower than them. That's *expletive deleted, expletive deleted, expletive deleted, expletive deleted, expletive deleted, expletive deleted, expletive deleted, expletive deleted, expletive deleted, expletive deleted* stupid at best, and hateful at worst
If they really believe in it, then its not hateful, they think they are making the world a better place. We presume they are hateful becaue we think of all humans as equal, but then maybe they don't.
Forgive me for defending such a nasty ideology, but I get a bit disgruntled when people say that those who don't agree with the standard western values of today are hateful. Quite often they are not, they just view the world differently from you.
04-19-2009, 01:11
Askthepizzaguy
Re: I laugh in the face of White Supremacist groups
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr
If they really believe in it, then its not hateful, they think they are making the world a better place. We presume they are hateful becaue we think of all humans as equal, but then maybe they don't.
Forgive me for defending such a nasty ideology, but I get a bit disgruntled when people say that those who don't agree with the standard western values of today are hateful. Quite often they are not, they just view the world differently from you.
Another white supremacist group, in the last century, was led by a man who thought his struggles would make the world a better place. He even wrote a book called "My Struggle".
He was indeed a hateful man. Thinking other human beings are lesser than you may not be anger, per se, but it is hateful.
04-19-2009, 01:11
Jolt
Re: I laugh in the face of White Supremacist groups
Pity is, most of them aren't Aryan. Or anything close. Then again it depends on what you consider Aryans. I consider Aryans the top strata of the Indian Caste Society Brahmins, which have descended practically exclusively from Aryans, due to the nature of the Caste System, which was itself imposed by the Aryans as a means to maintain themselves on top of the Indian Society.
Most of the people recruit into the Aryan nation unfortunatly have very little to do with the concept I just explained. They are at best remotely connected by Indo-European origins, which by now has been dissolved with non-white forefathers.
A curious case is that according to a recent geneology study here in Portugal, many of the proeminent members of the Nazi and Skinheads movements in Portugal had forefathers who were Jews. Most people in Portugal somewhere around 75-80% had a Jewish forefather. Of course the Nazi movements were quick to threaten the investigators and denouce the falsehood of historical scientists. Since their innexistent methods of determining their racial background are far better and convinient.
04-19-2009, 01:17
Rhyfelwyr
Re: I laugh in the face of White Supremacist groups
Quote:
Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy
Another white supremacist group, in the last century, was led by a man who thought his struggles would make the world a better place. He even wrote a book called "My Struggle".
He was indeed a hateful man. Thinking other human beings are lesser than you may not be anger, per se, but it is hateful.
Depends. Hitler really did hate the Jews, he practically talked himself into it (and once again we have talked ourselves into talking about him, he might have failed to take Europe but he's taking over the Backroom!). But then, maybe some of these white supremacists simply believe black people are inferior and don't deserve the same rights or whatever. Are you hateful because you think animals are lesser beings?
04-19-2009, 01:23
Askthepizzaguy
Re: I laugh in the face of White Supremacist groups
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr
Depends. Hitler really did hate the Jews, he practically talked himself into it (and once again we have talked ourselves into talking about him, he might have failed to take Europe but he's taking over the Backroom!). But then, maybe some of these white supremacists simply believe black people are inferior and don't deserve the same rights or whatever. Are you hateful because you think animals are lesser beings?
However, this is a thread about White Supremacy and racial hate; Hitler is actually relevant here.
I don't treat animals as lesser beings, and I resent the comparison between racial groups and animals. I don't give a flying cuttlefish what they believe or the silly reasons behind their racial hatred or ignorance; whichever you prefer to call it. I don't care what their motives are. I don't care if their entire family was gang-raped by a member of a different race; thinking other human beings are lesser than you are, less deserving of rights and life and liberty, unequal to you, is the mentality which brought about every single racial war.
It's a backwards and intolerant view which is not welcome. The difference between them and me? I don't try to take away their freedom of speech, I don't advocate "sending them back to Ireland", I don't threaten them or their families, I don't consider them sub-human, and I don't wish to eradicate them, even though in all honesty, if we could round up all the hate groups, put them inside a giant sports arena, and give them all weapons, we could witness how futile and destructive hate is, and how it has no place in civilized society.
After all, they have the option not to hate, not to kill. It's their choice. :grin:
04-19-2009, 01:24
Seamus Fermanagh
Re: I laugh in the face of White Supremacist groups
Godwin invocation within 10 posts -- probably inevitable with the topic.
04-19-2009, 01:29
Samurai Waki
Re: I laugh in the face of White Supremacist groups
Quote:
Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy
After all, they have the option not to hate, not to kill. It's their choice. :grin:
And many of them do learn after awhile, how futile and meaningless that struggle is. Especially ones who at one point in their lives were actively a part in Racial Supremacy Groups. Most often these groups round up young, confused, and unworldly teenagers and try to indoctrinate them. I'm not sure what the average drop out rate per group is, but I bet it's a lot higher than they'd ever be willing to admit.
04-19-2009, 01:33
Askthepizzaguy
Re: I laugh in the face of White Supremacist groups
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh
Godwin invocation within 10 posts -- probably inevitable with the topic.
Wait! :no:
Is there no discussion where Hitler is actually relevant? I mean, it is a white supremacist topic. It's not Godwin if Hitler is actually a valid and relevant thing to be discussed here. The only thing MORE relevant would be a thread about the Nazis.
Am I misunderstanding Godwin?
Quote:
The rule does not make any statement about whether any particular reference or comparison to Adolf Hitler or the Nazis might be appropriate, but only asserts that one arising is increasingly probable. It is precisely because such a comparison or reference may sometimes be appropriate, Godwin has argued,[4] that overuse of Nazi and Hitler comparisons should be avoided, because it robs the valid comparisons of their impact
Even Godwin agrees that there are valid comparisons to be made. The point is that people should avoid using such references when they DON'T apply, not to discourage proper usage.
04-19-2009, 01:36
Rhyfelwyr
Re: I laugh in the face of White Supremacist groups
Quote:
Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy
I don't advocate "sending them back to Ireland"
Was that aimed at me? If it was, then I may as well join the Catholics on the boat trip, since one side of my family is descended from Ulster Protestants.
ATPG I have no sympathy with racist ideology, but I refuse to denouce all racists as hateful. It might be the popular, knee-jerk reaction to take, but it doesn't really get to the root of the problem does it? If we look at Nazi Germany and just say the Holocaust happened because by an incredible coincidence a large part of a nation happened to be hateful, then we would not learn much to prevent such events happening again, would we?
04-19-2009, 01:39
Askthepizzaguy
Re: I laugh in the face of White Supremacist groups
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr
Was that aimed at me? If it was, then I may as well join the Catholics on the boat trip, since one side of my family is descended from Ulster Protestants.
No, actually; it was referring to the gentleman in my article, "Jerald O'Brien".
O'Brien is an Irish name, I believe.
04-19-2009, 01:41
Jolt
Re: I laugh in the face of White Supremacist groups
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jolt
A curious case is that according to a recent geneology study here in Portugal, many of the proeminent members of the Nazi and Skinheads movements in Portugal had forefathers who were Jews. Most people in Portugal somewhere around 75-80% had a Jewish forefather. Of course the Nazi movements were quick to threaten the investigators and denouce the falsehood of historical scientists. Since their innexistent methods of determining their racial background are far better and convinient.
Not funny? *sobs*
04-19-2009, 01:42
Askthepizzaguy
Re: I laugh in the face of White Supremacist groups
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr
ATPG I have no sympathy with racist ideology, but I refuse to denouce all racists as hateful. It might be the popular, knee-jerk reaction to take, but it doesn't really get to the root of the problem does it? If we look at Nazi Germany and just say the Holocaust happened because by an incredible coincidence a large part of a nation happened to be hateful, then we would not learn much to prevent such events happening again, would we?
It's not a knee-jerk reaction. Their pamphlets were hateful!
"Why did those dark men take mommy away?"
That is a pamphlet designed to spread fear and hate. PREVENTING such hatred involves speaking out against it. I never said we should exterminate them. You may be trying to argue against hatred, but what you're doing is defending it, and then calling those who oppose hatred hateful, even though they don't sink down to their level.
It is "misguided" as you might call it, to do so. I feel that your defense of these hate-groups could be a knee-jerk reaction of your own. I don't see your reasoning behind it. But I'm attempting to listen.
04-19-2009, 01:50
Rhyfelwyr
Re: I laugh in the face of White Supremacist groups
Quote:
Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy
It's not a knee-jerk reaction. Their pamphlets were hateful!
"Why did those dark men take mommy away?"
That is a pamphlet designed to spread fear and hate. PREVENTING such hatred involves speaking out against it. I never said we should exterminate them. You may be trying to argue against hatred, but what you're doing is defending it, and then calling those who oppose hatred hateful, even though they don't sink down to their level.
It is "misguided" as you might call it, to do so. I feel that your defense of these hate-groups could be a knee-jerk reaction of your own. I don't see your reasoning behind it. But I'm attempting to listen.
I'm just saying if they really believe black men are out to get the nice little whites then that's not really any more different from how you would hate Stalin for mass-murdering everyone he didn't like. Presuming you do disapprove of the likes of Stalin, would you hate him with the same hatred Hitler had for the Jews? Or would it not be more of a strong moral disapproval?
04-19-2009, 01:58
Askthepizzaguy
Re: I laugh in the face of White Supremacist groups
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr
I'm just saying if they really believe black men are out to get the nice little whites
Then they are correct. Some of them are. And there are a lot more whites out to get them, according to the sheer amounts of white-on-white crime. It's ignorant to fear only one group.
Quote:
then that's not really any more different from how you would hate Stalin for mass-murdering everyone he didn't like
Yes it is. Opposing a mass murderer is different from hating an entire racial group. There is zero comparison to be made between them.
Quote:
Presuming you do disapprove of the likes of Stalin
Yes.
Quote:
would you hate him with the same hatred Hitler had for the Jews? Or would it not be more of a strong moral disapproval?
It's a meaningless hypothetical. Stalin is dead, and a mass murderer who is guilty of crimes against humanity is, and always was, different from a "race" of people. I strongly and morally disapprove of what he did. And I wouldn't even characterize my dislike of racists as hatred; only disappointment and a wish that they would relent and become less ignorant.
If I hated them, as they hate minorities, I'd be calling for much worse than speaking out against them. There is no comparison between what I feel towards racists and what racists feel and do towards those they oppose. I'm dismayed by what you're saying, and wonder what drives you to defend supremacist groups from legitimate concerns that rational people have against their divisive and hateful behavior.
I don't think you're putting forth a reasoned argument, and I don't believe there is a moral reason to defend racists at all from being correctly labeled as hateful.
04-19-2009, 02:03
Rhyfelwyr
Re: I laugh in the face of White Supremacist groups
Quote:
Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy
It's a meaningless hypothetical. Stalin is dead, and a mass murderer who is guilty of crimes against humanity is, and always was, different from a "race" of people. I strongly and morally disapprove of what he did. And I wouldn't even characterize my dislike of racists as hatred; only disappointment and a wish that they would relent and become less ignorant.
If I hated them, as they hate minorities, I'd be calling for much worse than speaking out against them. There is no comparison between what I feel towards racists and what racists feel and do towards those they oppose. I'm dismayed by what you're saying, and wonder what drives you to defend supremacist groups from legitimate concerns that rational people have against their divisive and hateful behavior.
But that's my point. We disapprove of Stalin, white supremacists dissaprove of black people. We don't hate anyone, the white supremacists don't (necessarily) hate anyone. So what is the difference? Stalin is one guy, blacks are, in the minds of the white supremacists, a race. In the minds of these people, black folk have different genes or whatever which make them nasty or different from white people. Just like Stalin's genes made him what he was. Are the white supremacists right to apply such characteristics on the 'racial' level - I don't think so, but they do. They need not hate anyone because of it more than we hate nasty individuals.
04-19-2009, 02:10
Askthepizzaguy
Re: I laugh in the face of White Supremacist groups
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr
But that's my point. We disapprove of Stalin, white supremacists dissaprove of black people. We don't hate anyone, the white supremacists don't (necessarily) hate anyone. So what is the difference? Stalin is one guy, blacks are, in the minds of the white supremacists, a race. In the minds of these people, black folk have different genes or whatever which make them nasty or different from white people. Just like Stalin's genes made him what he was. Are the white supremacists right to apply such characteristics on the 'racial' level - I don't think so, but they do. They need not hate anyone because of it more than we hate nasty individuals.
You can't "disapprove" of someone's existence. You can't disapprove of people. You can disapprove of their actions.
To "disapprove" of a race of people is to not approve of their existing on this planet. That's hateful.
"In the minds of these people, black folk have different genes or whatever which make them nasty or different from white people"
How is that not hatred, and instead, moral objection? There's nothing moral about it. It's hate by the definition of hate. If you don't like the word hate, that's the proper word for it, and it's not really something you can effectively argue against.
"Just like Stalin's genes made him what he was"
That's your opinion, not backed up by any evidence, and forgive me... it's a rather ridiculous thing to suggest that people are slaves to their genes. My parents were alcoholic, that doesn't make me so. I don't drink at all. Blaming people's behavior on their genes absolves people of crimes they chose to commit.
"Are the white supremacists right to apply such characteristics on the 'racial' level - I don't think so, but they do. They need not hate anyone because of it more than we hate nasty individuals"
Ask them yourself; they will tell you they hate people. Read their pamphlets; they tell you how wicked and immoral black people are, and that it is ok to hate them. Morally correct to hate them. But tt's a fact; hatred is hatred, and you can't pretend it doesn't exist when they themselves say they hate black people, and encourage fear of an entire race. You have nothing reasonable here to argue, and you've failed to make a legitimate point, in my opinion.
It's absurd to argue in defense of people who hate entire races of people, without concern about the guilt or innocence of an individual.
04-19-2009, 02:16
Rhyfelwyr
Re: I laugh in the face of White Supremacist groups
Look we are all what the genes, chemicals etc in our brains and bodies make us, what difference does it make if its on the individual or 'racial' level? And if we are not 'slaves to our genes' then by what other means do we operate? If you make a decision, that's just some electric signals travelling round your brain, you can't choose to overrule them, they make you what you are. That, of course, in my opinion, not a fact.
04-19-2009, 02:17
Askthepizzaguy
Re: I laugh in the face of White Supremacist groups
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr
Look we are all what the genes, chemicals etc in our brains and bodies make us, what difference does it make if its on the individual or 'racial' level? And if we are not 'slaves to our genes' then by what other means do we operate? If you make a decision, that's just some electric signals travelling round your brain, you can't choose to overrule them, they make you what you are. That, of course, in my opinion, not a fact.
Identical twins have the same genes. One may become a mass murderer, the other may not.
Blaming everything on genetics is precisely the error racists make, and I encourage you not to believe that fallacy.
04-19-2009, 02:21
Rhyfelwyr
Re: I laugh in the face of White Supremacist groups
Quote:
Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy
Identical twins have the same genes. One may become a mass murderer, the other may not.
Blaming everything on genetics is precisely the error racists make, and I encourage you not to believe that fallacy.
If one is taken out the womb before the other, suddenly you have the butterfly effect and there you go one gets the Nobel Peace Prize and the other goes on a killing spree. Biology and environment/upbringing are the reasons behind everything we do. Unless of course you believe in some sort of soul, but then there's no more evidence for that than there is for the big man in the sky.
04-19-2009, 02:21
Beefy187
Re: I laugh in the face of White Supremacist groups
There were those days when we Japanese bragged about being allowed to be "Special Whites" for beating Russia.
And that was the day when we lost Asian pride :shame:
04-19-2009, 02:56
Askthepizzaguy
Re: I laugh in the face of White Supremacist groups
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr
If one is taken out the womb before the other, suddenly you have the butterfly effect and there you go one gets the Nobel Peace Prize and the other goes on a killing spree. Biology and environment/upbringing are the reasons behind everything we do. Unless of course you believe in some sort of soul, but then there's no more evidence for that than there is for the big man in the sky.
I seem to recall someone once saying something about an argument being built upon sand; and the other one said that sand is better than nothing at all... In this case, your argument is once again built upon no evidence, and no reasoning that I can see. A vast amount of evidence, research, and reasoning has gone into the question of blaming genes for our behavior. But the fact is while genes may help form the brain, so does the environment, and unless the brain is absolutely dead, people have control over their actions, and can freely choose.
Even a certain God people believe in allows for free will. So does science. You're curiously arguing against it, even though you yourself have said that faith is a choice.
Your argument is undermined by your own argument, and as such, there is no better rebuttal than your own words. If you'll excuse me, I'd like to take a break from this one for a little while, because (a) we won't make any progress (b) I think you've effectively defeated yourself and (c) I do find the defense of racists to be a little upsetting, and as such, I take my leave and will ponder things quietly without saying things that might offend people.
:bow:
Quote:
There were those days when we Japanese bragged about being allowed to be "Special Whites" for beating Russia. And that was the day when we lost Asian pride
You are an individual to me, Beefy; the crimes of others, in the past, are not yours to feel ashamed of. Whites in the past enslaved and conquered, and I feel no shame because I've done nothing wrong. Germans have nothing to be ashamed of, nor Italians, nor blacks or hispanics or persians or arabs... Blaming a race or a nation for the crimes of individuals is again, based on poor reasoning and fallacious thinking.
You have much to be proud of, Beefy... you're funny and smart and friendly, and people like you gawrsh darn it! Asian pride is perhaps nothing to miss; Asians are a vast group of diverse people, and people should be proud of their own accomplishments. I've never been a fan of racial pride. But at the same time, you, Japan, Asians.... have nothing to be collectively ashamed of either. I don't believe in collective pride, nor do I believe in collective shame. A person is judged on their own merits as an individual.
It's one of the reasons I oppose racists so much; they assign group pride and group shame. There's no room for that in my mind or in my heart.
:bow:
04-19-2009, 03:14
Jolt
Re: I laugh in the face of White Supremacist groups
Japanese should be ashamed to crush all the work good honest Portuguese did to evangelize Japan! :)
04-19-2009, 03:18
Crazed Rabbit
Re: I laugh in the face of White Supremacist groups
I'm sorry, but posting a thread making fun of these idiots is not really laughing in their face.
Take Chris Hitchens, for example, and his tangle with some thugs in Beirut. He effectively did laugh in the face of some neo-nazis there, and got attacked.
Anyway, these folks are like a few pieces of grass in a field. They are insignificant, meaningless.
CR
04-19-2009, 03:55
Askthepizzaguy
Re: I laugh in the face of White Supremacist groups
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
I'm sorry, but posting a thread making fun of these idiots is not really laughing in their face.
Take Chris Hitchens, for example, and his tangle with some thugs in Beirut. He effectively did laugh in the face of some neo-nazis there, and got attacked.
Anyway, these folks are like a few pieces of grass in a field. They are insignificant, meaningless.
CR
Every racist group capable of harming others begins with one person, then a small group. None of them are insignificant... they are all a threat to human progress.
04-19-2009, 04:08
Crazed Rabbit
Re: I laugh in the face of White Supremacist groups
Quote:
Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy
Every racist group capable of harming others begins with one person, then a small group. None of them are insignificant... they are all a threat to human progress.
:rolleyes:
A threat, maybe, potentially, but these sort of groups still are insignificant. This one used to be large. Now it's a couple of guys in Idaho.
CR
04-19-2009, 04:23
Askthepizzaguy
Re: I laugh in the face of White Supremacist groups
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
:rolleyes:
A threat, maybe, potentially, but these sort of groups still are insignificant. This one used to be large. Now it's a couple of guys in Idaho.
CR
A single white supremacist can commit a hate crime. 2 or 3 can cause significant damage to a community. A small, small gang can terrorize a community.
Insignificant to the nation's security as a whole... MAYBE. Insignificant to any non-whites living around there? I think not.
If I were jewish, living in a small community, and there was a group, albeit a small one, marching in pro-Nazi demonstrations, I'd fear for my family, and I'd be dismayed at the lack of backlash against them and the apathy towards them and the tacit support people show by defending them or doing nothing.
04-19-2009, 04:34
Crazed Rabbit
Re: I laugh in the face of White Supremacist groups
Quote:
Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy
A single white supremacist can commit a hate crime. 2 or 3 can cause significant damage to a community. A small, small gang can terrorize a community.
Bah. What have these people done? They distributed leaflets so more people would apply for their special club and decoder ring. Your talk of communities being terrorized is hyperbole.
This group is insignificant. Let me know if they do anything of which you warn.
Quote:
I'd be dismayed at the lack of backlash against them and the apathy towards them and the tacit support people show by defending them or doing nothing.
What do you mean, doing nothing? This is America, where even jerks and bigots can express their opinions freely.
CR
04-19-2009, 04:37
Askthepizzaguy
Re: I laugh in the face of White Supremacist groups
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
Bah. What have these people done? They distributed leaflets so more people would apply for their special club and decoder ring. Your talk of communities being terrorized is hyperbole.
This group is insignificant. Let me know if they do anything of which you warn.
Well, I'm sure someone else can give you a bunch of links to hate crimes committed in America by hate groups like these. How many murders must happen before you consider it a possibility that they might strike again?
Quote:
What do you mean, doing nothing? This is America, where even jerks and bigots can express their opinions freely.
Of course; by terrorizing communities, spreading vicious lies about black people, encouraging racial hatred and spreading ignorance, they are exercising their rights as an American. And I am doing the same, by denouncing their worthless drivel as being harmful to America.
Lovely how that works. The same freedom they use to abuse is the freedom I use to stand up to those bullies.
04-19-2009, 04:41
Evil_Maniac From Mars
Re: I laugh in the face of White Supremacist groups
Quote:
Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy
Of course; by terrorizing communities, spreading vicious lies about black people, encouraging racial hatred and spreading ignorance, they are exercising their rights as an American. And I am doing the same, by denouncing their worthless drivel as being harmful to America.
Lovely how that works. The same freedom they use to abuse is the freedom I use to stand up to those bullies.
It is better that they express their opinions to the public, where they can be laughed at and ridiculed by citizens like yourself. If they didn't have the right to speak up (and we didn't have the right to ridicule them), I think their movement would be much larger than it is now, because they would silently build.
04-19-2009, 04:51
Askthepizzaguy
Re: I laugh in the face of White Supremacist groups
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars
It is better that they express their opinions to the public, where they can be laughed at and ridiculed by citizens like yourself. If they didn't have the right to speak up (and we didn't have the right to ridicule them), I think their movement would be much larger than it is now, because they would silently build.
Indeed! I wholeheartedly agree!
I would never begin to act to take away their right to say such awful things. However, once their silly viewpoint has been made public, I believe wholeheartedly that a counter-demonstration, with about a thousand times more people, would show them and the world how little we think of their viewpoint, and how much we celebrate racial equality, tolerance, and the betterment of mankind as a whole.
Freedom of speech: it is the sunlight which drives away those that fester in darkness.
04-19-2009, 05:21
Xiahou
Re: I laugh in the face of White Supremacist groups
Quote:
I laugh in the face of White Supremacist groups
Congrats?
What's the point of this thread anyway? :inquisitive:
04-19-2009, 06:40
Askthepizzaguy
Re: I laugh in the face of White Supremacist groups
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xiahou
Congrats?
What's the point of this thread anyway? :inquisitive:
Talking about the re-emergence of a white supremacist group in Idaho and discussing the article related to it, and other topics relating to white supremacy in general, and racism. So far we've had a healthy debate and an interesting discussion.
No less relevant than any other thread in the back. :laugh2:
04-19-2009, 06:48
KarlXII
Re: I laugh in the face of White Supremacist groups
Quote:
Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy
Talking about the re-emergence of a white supremacist group in Idaho and discussing the article related to it, and other topics relating to white supremacy in general, and racism. So far we've had a healthy debate and an interesting discussion.
No less relevant than any other thread in the back. :laugh2:
Count us lucky the truth is not whitewashed, as this would turn into a very pale situation.
04-19-2009, 07:27
Vuk
Re: I laugh in the face of White Supremacist groups
Black Panthers, Aryan Nations, all the same. They attract insecure and hateful people.
04-19-2009, 07:44
Askthepizzaguy
Re: I laugh in the face of White Supremacist groups
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vuk
Black Panthers, Aryan Nations, all the same. They attract insecure and hateful people.
Seconded.
04-19-2009, 07:48
Crazed Rabbit
Re: I laugh in the face of White Supremacist groups
Quote:
Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy
Well, I'm sure someone else can give you a bunch of links to hate crimes committed in America by hate groups like these. How many murders must happen before you consider it a possibility that they might strike again?
How many murders has this group committed? Any? Or, actually, any hate groups across the country recently?
When you say 'groups like these' you reveal that this group is insignificant - what I said in the first place- because you are forced to reference other groups in order to provide support to your argument that this and similar hate groups are dangerous.
Quote:
Lovely how that works. The same freedom they use to abuse is the freedom I use to stand up to those bullies.
:rolleyes: Standing up is a bit much to describe your actions; you've made fun of them on the internet. That's it. Usually, I think standing up to someone requires them actually being at least slightly aware of your actions.
CR
04-19-2009, 07:49
Askthepizzaguy
Re: I laugh in the face of White Supremacist groups
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
How many murders has this group committed? Any? Or, actually, any hate groups across the country recently? When you say 'groups like these' you reveal that this group is insignificant - what I said in the first place- because you are forced to reference other groups in order to provide support to your argument that this and similar hate groups are dangerous. :rolleyes: Standing up is a bit much to describe your actions; you've made fun of them on the internet. That's it. Usually, I think standing up to someone requires them actually being at least slightly aware of your actions. CR
Well ya got me. Speaking out against hate groups who spread vile ignorance against entire races of people makes me both a coward and a bad human being.
I concede to your superior argument.
04-19-2009, 11:05
Fragony
Re: I laugh in the face of White Supremacist groups
flagwaving loonies, all bravoure just ignore them.
04-19-2009, 11:21
HoreTore
Re: I laugh in the face of White Supremacist groups
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
Bah. What have these people done? They distributed leaflets so more people would apply for their special club and decoder ring. Your talk of communities being terrorized is hyperbole.
Now, as I have no idea what "Aryan Nation" is up to, I can't really comment on what they're doing.
But our own brands of neo-nazi are quite the active chaps. No-one forgets Benjamin Hermansen, who was killed a few years ago by a small gang of Nazi's, for the simple reason that he was african. I can't remember if they were looking for a random african to kill, or if they decided to kill when they saw Benjamin.
One death may not sound like all that much, but remember that this is in a tiny country with ome 50 murders per year...
Aside from that, they're very busy terrorizing asylums and the tiny Jewish community in Oslo. One of their most despicable hobbies is to terrorize one particular asylum(can't remember its name atm), where all the occupants are orphans. Can you imagine that? A 10 year old who just saw his mother raped and father killed in Afghanistan, for example, comes there thinking he's finally safe, and then some :daisy: decides to shoot randomly into the complex. One thing is when you attack adults, it's something else when you attack children, and just plain evil when you attack vulnerable children like these.
04-19-2009, 11:33
Fragony
Re: I laugh in the face of White Supremacist groups
What is it with scandinavian that they all want to be the most racist country. One racist murder wow, that is one more then we have had here so far.
04-19-2009, 11:43
HoreTore
Re: I laugh in the face of White Supremacist groups
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
What is it with scandinavian that they all want to be the most racist country. One racist murder wow, that is one more then we have had here so far.
Wanting to be the most racists country? No.... I don't think these groups "represent" my country in any way... They are small groups of nutters, but they are quite capable of causing trouble.
Further, I don't think we're very racists at all. And I think the reason for that is that we focus strongly on it when it does happen, and are very good at voicing our objections to it.
04-19-2009, 11:52
Vuk
Re: I laugh in the face of White Supremacist groups
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
Wanting to be the most racists country? No.... I don't think these groups "represent" my country in any way... They are small groups of nutters, but they are quite capable of causing trouble.
Further, I don't think we're very racists at all. And I think the reason for that is that we focus strongly on it when it does happen, and are very good at voicing our objections to it.
You Scandinavians are the most racist race in the world! I hate your racist race of racists you racist racist! ~;)
04-19-2009, 11:58
Husar
Re: I laugh in the face of White Supremacist groups
I find this thread very offensive. :shame:
Please remove comments meant to make fun of members of societies
04-19-2009, 12:03
Vuk
Re: I laugh in the face of White Supremacist groups
Quote:
Originally Posted by Husar
I find this thread very offensive. :shame:
Please remove comments meant to make fun of members of societies
Sorry, I am just an uncouth redneck. :embarassed:
I will place a smilie in to help those sofisticated and enlightened members of society realise that my post was a joke.
04-19-2009, 12:05
Fragony
Re: I laugh in the face of White Supremacist groups
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
Further, I don't think we're very racists at all. And I think the reason for that is that we focus strongly on it when it does happen, and are very good at voicing our objections to it.
Making an elephant out of a mosquito as we say here. Neo-nazi's are disgusting but nobody takes them seriously here. Not to say that these fruitcakes who harass orphans don't deserve a very thourough beating, idiots.
04-19-2009, 12:11
Vuk
Re: I laugh in the face of White Supremacist groups
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Making an elephant out of a mosquito as we say here.
You can do that? ~:eek:
Remind me never to underestimate Dutch science again...
PS, why has this not caused the legal ivory business to explode? Is it an expensive procedure?
04-19-2009, 12:14
Fragony
Re: I laugh in the face of White Supremacist groups
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vuk
You can do that? ~:eek:
Of course we can we are white we can do everything thora-boy :beam:
04-19-2009, 12:21
Vuk
Re: I laugh in the face of White Supremacist groups
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Of course we can we are white we can do everything thora-boy :beam:
Sweet! Sign me up! Where do I go to get my white surgery?
04-19-2009, 12:28
rajpoot
Re: I laugh in the face of White Supremacist groups
All I'd like to do here is second what Jolt said........wherever do these chaps get their Aryan ancestors from?
Granted the Aryans originated somewhere in Asia minor, but most migrated across the mountains into India. The people in the Mahabharata and Ramayana are the original Aryans.
The fact that nitwits who consider themselves better than others just because they say they're pure Aryans, is very distressing.
04-19-2009, 12:31
Fragony
Re: I laugh in the face of White Supremacist groups
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vuk
Sweet! Sign me up! Where do I go to get my white surgery?
Re: I laugh in the face of White Supremacist groups
Quote:
Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy
I seem to recall someone once saying something about an argument being built upon sand; and the other one said that sand is better than nothing at all... In this case, your argument is once again built upon no evidence, and no reasoning that I can see. A vast amount of evidence, research, and reasoning has gone into the question of blaming genes for our behavior. But the fact is while genes may help form the brain, so does the environment, and unless the brain is absolutely dead, people have control over their actions, and can freely choose.
Genes + experience = behaviour in any given situation. That's how most scientists see it nowadays isn't it? My argument isn't based on sand, I'm pretty sure you accept that our genes and our experiences influence our behaviour as well. The difference is you think there is something that allows us to choose how we act, as if every single electric signal that flickers through our brain was not an inevitable result of the previous one, and the pattern they form determines what we do. I see no reason to believe that some supernatural force gives us free will by overruling the biological machine that is our brain.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy
Even a certain God people believe in allows for free will. So does science. You're curiously arguing against it, even though you yourself have said that faith is a choice.
Actually, I don't, I've argued many a time with Philipvs Vallidervs Caligvla on this issue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy
Your argument is undermined by your own argument, and as such, there is no better rebuttal than your own words. If you'll excuse me, I'd like to take a break from this one for a little while, because (a) we won't make any progress (b) I think you've effectively defeated yourself and (c) I do find the defense of racists to be a little upsetting, and as such, I take my leave and will ponder things quietly without saying things that might offend people.
:bow:
I think you just took what you thought to be one of my arguments from another thread, misunderstood it, then lumped it into this one and said I'm contradicting myself. :shrug:
04-19-2009, 13:10
rory_20_uk
Re: I laugh in the face of White Supremacist groups
Get on a bus in London. Doesn't really matter which one. Wait. Get off the bus. I'm sure you've met enough moronic whites to join the Black Panthers.
~:smoking:
04-19-2009, 13:21
Vuk
Re: I laugh in the face of White Supremacist groups
If that is white, then no thank you. I think I will stay a mongrel. :P
04-19-2009, 20:20
Crazed Rabbit
Re: I laugh in the face of White Supremacist groups
Quote:
Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy
Well ya got me. Speaking out against hate groups who spread vile ignorance against entire races of people makes me both a coward and a bad human being.
Congratulations sir, you have constructed a strawman! And what a strawman it is! You win the weekly strawman contest and are hereby awarded a coupon redeemable for $.50 off your next purchase of bread at your local Wal-Mart.
Quote:
Now, as I have no idea what "Aryan Nation" is up to, I can't really comment on what they're doing.
But our own brands of neo-nazi are quite the active chaps. No-one forgets Benjamin Hermansen, who was killed a few years ago by a small gang of Nazi's, for the simple reason that he was african. I can't remember if they were looking for a random african to kill, or if they decided to kill when they saw Benjamin.
Here they used to have a compound or some buildings in North Idaho before they lost it all in a lawsuit. They used to go on marches where everyone booed them. Certainly nothing of what you describe.
Now they're even more pathetic. Probably only a few guys who printed up some leaflets and distributed them, with a very old school website.
CR
04-19-2009, 21:06
Askthepizzaguy
Re: I laugh in the face of White Supremacist groups
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
And what a strawman it is!
Thanks! :grin:
In all seriousness, I've dealt with racists and bullies in-person plenty of times. It's simply the problem that I'm at my computer and have no way to get to Idaho that I can't form my own protest group. And there are plenty of examples of small neo-Nazi groups causing violence in any country they are in; because they are hateful little racists. So the defenses people give of these racists I find both amusing and tiresome, depending on how much of it I see. And a little troubling, to be frank.
It all boils down to "oh, they aren't hurting anyone... it's free speech, let them do what they want."
When they burn crosses and picket outside of businesses of minorities, spread vicious lies and incite hatred of another vast group of people, when they consider human beings to be nothing more than animals, when they are actively trying to recruit others to their viewpoint, then they are hurting people, and it may be free speech but nothing is stopping us from using our free speech in return against them.
It's best to keep an eye on these hate groups. When they have the numbers they need and they stop being such chicken *bleeps*, they will attack the people they hate. It's only a matter of time. Much like NAMBLA; assuming they got large enough numbers, they would attempt to legislate their viewpoint, and in the meantime, you should keep an eye on them because they are likely to molest children. With hate groups it is the same; if they were large enough they would segregate and deport people they hated, remove rights, and legislate intolerance. In the meantime, they are the most likely out of all of us to engage in racial violence, because it is consistent with their beliefs and ideology.
Others have given examples of violence done by groups like these. And it is a fair comparison; Neo-Nazi groups all have similar stated positions, goals, targets, and agendas. That's why they are all identified as Neo-Nazis, they share something in common. And because the ideology itself that they are spreading treats other human beings as inferior, it's not prejudice to lump them together. It is in fact what they teach, what they believe. If I thought all members of a group were racist, that would be prejudice, unless the group itself teaches hate and engages in racism, and is in fact a racist group. They do exist.
I admit I was a bit tired of all the defenses yesterday and didn't have the energy or desire to formulate a cogent counter-argument, so out of exasperation, I didn't do your argument justice. But even so, to be honest, I don't find your argument to have much merit. These people are literally one step away from being Nazis themselves, they even tattoo swastikas on their foreheads. The only thing missing so far is the violence, and there's ample evidence that something like that could happen again, as it has happened a thousand times over with Neo-Nazi groups.
I am saying that all Nazi-fanboy groups are essentially the same, because they base their ideology on the belief that their genetics make them inherently superior to all others. This isn't based in science, and it isn't based in reason, and it does not lead to anything good either. It leads to a division in our society which is harmful and destructive, and there's countless instances of racism throughout history leading to violence and death. So when people step forward and say, you know, a little bit (a lot, in fact) of rampant racism from a group is nothing to be concerned about because they haven't done anything YET; I really have to wonder.
If someone talks about how much they hate you, is that something to worry about?
If someone organizes a group dedicated to how much they hate you, is that something to worry about?
If someone teaches to that group how superior they are to you, and how the world would be better off without you, is that something to worry about?
If they were to then arm themselves, using their second amendment rights, and speak about defending the Aryan Brotherhood from infiltration from the lesser beings, would that be something to worry about?
What if they spoke of driving these sub-humans out of their communities, and their states, and their country, with force if necessary, would that be something to worry about?
If they approached a group of people they stated they hated, pointed their weapons at them, and were about to pull the trigger, would that be something to worry about?
After all, no violence has been committed just yet. Just because others in their position have done harm, there is no way of knowing if they too will follow in the footsteps of countless others and harm the people they incite violence against. And I'm just talking physical violence. What about verbal harassment and intimidation? What about hate speech and inciting violence?
Isn't there a rule where you can't shout "fire" in a crowded theater because that's not protected free speech? Well if you teach that certain human beings are inferior to you, maybe that shouldn't be protected free speech either. However, the louder they shout it, the more aware of it I become, and that is why I want to see it protected. And if I had people like that in my community, spreading vile hatred, I'd very much organize my own protest group and get the proper permits and march around town, following their group, cell phone at the ready, to make sure if they turn violent or start harassing people, they are immediately taken care of. (i.e. calling the police)
Vigilance... that's all I am advocating. I never said we should bust down their doors and lynch them for hatred. People are allowed to be hateful and ignorant. I am saying keep your eyes out and DON'T dismiss them as harmless when their group's stated ideology rejects peaceful coexistence with members of our community. They are, in my opinion, a cancerous tumor on society, and if it turns out to be malignant, as I think it is, then they should all be rounded up and imprisoned. As soon as the first fist is thrown, the first victim harassed, the first bullet is shot, their entire group should be considered organized criminals and should be penalized to the fullest extent of the law, using every single possible reason to throw the book at them and lock them away for a long time.
At least that's how I think it should be. In a perfect world, we could just look at them, see what they are doing, and tell them to stop it because it's not welcome, and if we see more of it, onto a rickety raft they will go somewhere in the middle of the Pacific Ocean, and best of luck to them.
Have I made it clear how much I love racists? :grin: Not welcome. Not a legitimate alternative civilized viewpoint. Never been productive, never been beneficial, and it's always led to friction, unhappiness, and hatred. Cancerous tumor. If malignant, should be removed. That's all.
Because America stands for not just protected freedoms; but also protected rights, and tolerance and acceptance. Hate is not something I want in America. :unitedstates:
04-19-2009, 21:13
KarlXII
Re: I laugh in the face of White Supremacist groups
I have a shirt on right now, your argument is invalid.
04-19-2009, 21:15
Askthepizzaguy
Re: I laugh in the face of White Supremacist groups
Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlXII
I have a shirt on right now, your argument is invalid.
Do post one of those delightful funny pictures when you say that. I have the windmill in the beard one, and bicycles on my feet one, so far. :bow:
04-19-2009, 21:29
Strike For The South
Re: I laugh in the face of White Supremacist groups
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy
Thanks! :grin:
In all seriousness, I've dealt with racists and bullies in-person plenty of times. It's simply the problem that I'm at my computer and have no way to get to Idaho that I can't form my own protest group. And there are plenty of examples of small neo-Nazi groups causing violence in any country they are in; because they are hateful little racists. So the defenses people give of these racists I find both amusing and tiresome, depending on how much of it I see. And a little troubling, to be frank.
It all boils down to "oh, they aren't hurting anyone... it's free speech, let them do what they want."
When they burn crosses and picket outside of businesses of minorities, spread vicious lies and incite hatred of another vast group of people, when they consider human beings to be nothing more than animals, when they are actively trying to recruit others to their viewpoint, then they are hurting people, and it may be free speech but nothing is stopping us from using our free speech in return against them.
It's best to keep an eye on these hate groups. When they have the numbers they need and they stop being such chicken *bleeps*, they will attack the people they hate. It's only a matter of time. Much like NAMBLA; assuming they got large enough numbers, they would attempt to legislate their viewpoint, and in the meantime, you should keep an eye on them because they are likely to molest children. With hate groups it is the same; if they were large enough they would segregate and deport people they hated, remove rights, and legislate intolerance. In the meantime, they are the most likely out of all of us to engage in racial violence, because it is consistent with their beliefs and ideology.
Others have given examples of violence done by groups like these. And it is a fair comparison; Neo-Nazi groups all have similar stated positions, goals, targets, and agendas. That's why they are all identified as Neo-Nazis, they share something in common. And because the ideology itself that they are spreading treats other human beings as inferior, it's not prejudice to lump them together. It is in fact what they teach, what they believe. If I thought all members of a group were racist, that would be prejudice, unless the group itself teaches hate and engages in racism, and is in fact a racist group. They do exist.
I admit I was a bit tired of all the defenses yesterday and didn't have the energy or desire to formulate a cogent counter-argument, so out of exasperation, I didn't do your argument justice. But even so, to be honest, I don't find your argument to have much merit. These people are literally one step away from being Nazis themselves, they even tattoo swastikas on their foreheads. The only thing missing so far is the violence, and there's ample evidence that something like that could happen again, as it has happened a thousand times over with Neo-Nazi groups.
I am saying that all Nazi-fanboy groups are essentially the same, because they base their ideology on the belief that their genetics make them inherently superior to all others. This isn't based in science, and it isn't based in reason, and it does not lead to anything good either. It leads to a division in our society which is harmful and destructive, and there's countless instances of racism throughout history leading to violence and death. So when people step forward and say, you know, a little bit (a lot, in fact) of rampant racism from a group is nothing to be concerned about because they haven't done anything YET; I really have to wonder.
If someone talks about how much they hate you, is that something to worry about?
If someone organizes a group dedicated to how much they hate you, is that something to worry about?
If someone teaches to that group how superior they are to you, and how the world would be better off without you, is that something to worry about?
If they were to then arm themselves, using their second amendment rights, and speak about defending the Aryan Brotherhood from infiltration from the lesser beings, would that be something to worry about?
What if they spoke of driving these sub-humans out of their communities, and their states, and their country, with force if necessary, would that be something to worry about?
If they approached a group of people they stated they hated, pointed their weapons at them, and were about to pull the trigger, would that be something to worry about?
After all, no violence has been committed just yet. Just because others in their position have done harm, there is no way of knowing if they too will follow in the footsteps of countless others and harm the people they incite violence against. And I'm just talking physical violence. What about verbal harassment and intimidation? What about hate speech and inciting violence?
Isn't there a rule where you can't shout "fire" in a crowded theater because that's not protected free speech? Well if you teach that certain human beings are inferior to you, maybe that shouldn't be protected free speech either. However, the louder they shout it, the more aware of it I become, and that is why I want to see it protected. And if I had people like that in my community, spreading vile hatred, I'd very much organize my own protest group and get the proper permits and march around town, following their group, cell phone at the ready, to make sure if they turn violent or start harassing people, they are immediately taken care of. (i.e. calling the police)
Vigilance... that's all I am advocating. I never said we should bust down their doors and lynch them for hatred. People are allowed to be hateful and ignorant. I am saying keep your eyes out and DON'T dismiss them as harmless when their group's stated ideology rejects peaceful coexistence with members of our community. They are, in my opinion, a cancerous tumor on society, and if it turns out to be malignant, as I think it is, then they should all be rounded up and imprisoned. As soon as the first fist is thrown, the first victim harassed, the first bullet is shot, their entire group should be considered organized criminals and should be penalized to the fullest extent of the law, using every single possible reason to throw the book at them and lock them away for a long time.
At least that's how I think it should be. In a perfect world, we could just look at them, see what they are doing, and tell them to stop it because it's not welcome, and if we see more of it, onto a rickety raft they will go somewhere in the middle of the Pacific Ocean, and best of luck to them.
Have I made it clear how much I love racists? :grin: Not welcome. Not a legitimate alternative civilized viewpoint. Never been productive, never been beneficial, and it's always led to friction, unhappiness, and hatred. Cancerous tumor. If malignant, should be removed. That's all.
Because America stands for not just protected freedoms; but also protected rights, and tolerance and acceptance. Hate is not something I want in America. :unitedstates:
There are plenty of groups much more organized than these men who deserve your internet LULZ. I know there a safe target because they are white and not big scary black men but lets try and save the self richusoesnes for something that matters.
04-19-2009, 21:42
Rhyfelwyr
Re: I laugh in the face of White Supremacist groups
I am not defending racist ideology, I am just saying you should not make blanket judgements on people with racist views. I've known people who have a bit of sympathy with the likes of the BNP. And no they are not evil skinheads, just ordinary people disillusioned with the whole political system. Why do you think such parties do well in poor areas? Is it because poor people are nastier than rich people, or is it because the socioeconomicetc conditions lead to some folk taking misguided outlets for their frustration?
We could all write big posts about how we don't like racism but maybe it would be more productive to look at the causes of racism and tackle those instead of just saying racism happens because racists are all nasty people.
04-19-2009, 21:44
Askthepizzaguy
Re: I laugh in the face of White Supremacist groups
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strike For The South
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
There are plenty of groups much more organized than these men who deserve your internet LULZ. I know there a safe target because they are white and not big scary black men but lets try and save the self richusoesnes for something that matters.
Sure, and be sure to save the chiding about self-righteousness for something that matters as well!
:bow:
Quote:
I am just saying you should not make blanket judgements on people with racist views
They shouldn't make blanket judgments about race, then! What's good for the goose is good for the gander. It's about not being hypocritical. If they can speak out against races, I can speak out against them.
Fair is fair.
They stop their racism, I stop hounding racists. It's absolutely equitable.
04-19-2009, 21:49
Rhyfelwyr
Re: I laugh in the face of White Supremacist groups
Quote:
Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy
They shouldn't make blanket judgments about race, then! What's good for the goose is good for the gander. It's about not being hypocritical. If they can speak out against races, I can speak out against them.
Fair is fair.
They stop their racism, I stop hounding racists. It's absolutely equitable.
That is what YOU think. They think otherwise. Regardless of whoever is right, you can't just call them all hateful. In their minds, maybe they are just disapproving of a nasty race of people.
04-19-2009, 21:53
Askthepizzaguy
Re: I laugh in the face of White Supremacist groups
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr
That is what YOU think. They think otherwise. Regardless of whoever is right, you can't just call them all hateful. In their minds, maybe they are just disapproving of a nasty race of people.
So:
Disapproving of a "nasty race of people" = Good and fair! :2thumbsup: Disapproving of a group that thinks a race of people is nasty = Unfair and unwelcome! :thumbsdown:
Forgive me, but... if they can dish out "disapproval" to "nasty" people, I can do the same. In summary: Boo hoo?
I feel like singing a song about hypocrisy. :grin:
04-19-2009, 22:15
Rhyfelwyr
Re: I laugh in the face of White Supremacist groups
Quote:
Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy
So:Disapproving of a "nasty race of people" = Good and fair! :2thumbsup: Disapproving of a group that thinks a race of people is nasty
No.
Disapproving of a "nasty race of people" = probably incorrect/stupid
Disapproving of a group that think a race of people is nasty = fine
However...
Calling a "group that think a race of people is nasty" hateful = wrong and unhelpful
Racism is just one of those historic forces that emerges under the right conditions from time to time. To dismiss it as the ramblings of hateful people is dangerous, and will never lead to it being tackled effectively.
"Reason" is your favourite word, so you should apply it instead of calling all racists hateful just because they did it to the blacks. If you do that your position isn't really much more useful than theirs. You just create a 'reasonable people v hateful racists' mentality which does nothing to actually allow for reasonable discussion to take place.
04-19-2009, 22:17
Askthepizzaguy
Re: I laugh in the face of White Supremacist groups
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr
Calling a "group that think a race of people is nasty" hateful = wrong and unhelpful
I could just as easily turn around and say what you're doing is wrong and unhelpful.
:shrug:
It's your opinion, Rhyf;
They are allowed to express theirs, you're allowed to express yours, I'm allowed to express mine.
:shakehands:
Fair is fair.
04-19-2009, 22:24
Rhyfelwyr
Re: I laugh in the face of White Supremacist groups
Quote:
Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy
I could just as easily turn around and say what you're doing is wrong and unhelpful.
:shrug:
It's your opinion, Rhyf;
They are allowed to express theirs, you're allowed to express yours, I'm allowed to express mine.
:shakehands:
Fair is fair.
Everything we say here is just our opinion!
So, in your opinion, is it correct to dismiss all racists as hateful?
IMO racism is just one of those diseases like poverty. Don't say that poor people are poor because they are lazy, instead its best to understand the conditions behind it, fix them, and solve problems at their root instead of just treating the symptoms.
04-19-2009, 22:27
Askthepizzaguy
Re: I laugh in the face of White Supremacist groups
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr
Everything we say here is just our opinion!
So, in your opinion, is it correct to dismiss all racists as hateful?
IMO racism is just one of those diseases like poverty. Don't say that poor people are poor because they are lazy, instead its best to understand the conditions behind it, fix them, and solve problems at their root instead of just treating the symptoms.
rac⋅ism
/ˈreɪsɪzəm/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [rey-siz-uhm] Show IPA
–noun
1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination. 3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.
Rhyfelwyr, you seem to dislike what words mean; as such, your argument seems to be not with me, but with the English language.
Racism, by definition, means hatred.
:bow: I rest my case.
04-19-2009, 22:32
Rhyfelwyr
Re: I laugh in the face of White Supremacist groups
Quote:
Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy
rac⋅ism
/ˈreɪsɪzəm/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [rey-siz-uhm] Show IPA
–noun
1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination. 3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.
Rhyfelwyr, you seem to dislike what words mean; as such, your argument seems to be not with me, but with the English language.
Racism, by definition, means hatred.
:bow: I rest my case.
Notice how you only bolded the third definition because it was the only one that you were using! You have a habit of doing that with words...
04-19-2009, 22:40
Askthepizzaguy
Re: I laugh in the face of White Supremacist groups
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr
Notice how you only bolded the third definition because it was the only one that you were using! You have a habit of doing that with words...
Yes, I have a habit of using them in proper context with the correct definitions.
I could post the definition of "set" which has many, many different definitions in the English language.
One could suggest that "set" does not mean something along the lines of "set in stone", it must mean what it means in the context of "complete set of cards"; I could then post the definition of set and highlight the relevant passage, and you could say "notice how you only bolded the definition you were using! You have a habit of doing that with words..."
Which is silly. Racism means hatred, according to the first dictionary that popped up in my search, and I could cross-reference that with different dictionaries and add more citations and proofs, but none of it would mean anything. Context is also what gives words their meaning; by definition racism means hatred, and groups of people who practice and believe wholeheartedly in racist ideologies, who are racist towards other groups of people, means precisely the sort of racism found in that dictionary. You can argue it all you like; it's just a matter of both contextually and by written definition, and by commonly understood language, racism means hatred. You're just deliberately ignoring that and attempting, unsuccessfully, to avoid it using semantics. But it doesn't even work in this case.
Racism does mean hatred. It's there in black and white for all to see. Take it up with dictionary.com if you disagree. I'm anxious to hear the results of your contest.
:bow:
04-19-2009, 22:43
Rhyfelwyr
Re: I laugh in the face of White Supremacist groups
Actually, white supremacists, judging by the term given to them, would more suitably fall under the first definition from the dictionary example you gave, I would think. That sounds like the context of this argument to me.
04-19-2009, 22:46
LittleGrizzly
Re: I laugh in the face of White Supremacist groups
Rhyf I would say your right about racists in general, they are not all hateful, but if we are talking about the kind of people who attend rallies and give out leaflets then they are very likely to be hateful towards the races they don't like...
04-19-2009, 22:47
Askthepizzaguy
Re: I laugh in the face of White Supremacist groups
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr
Actually, white supremacists, judging by the term given to them, would more suitably fall under the first definition from the dictionary example you gave, I would think. That sounds like the context of this argument to me.
In your opinion, of course. And that's a shaky case as well.
Quote:
1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
What does that have to do with "Why did those dark men take mommy away?"
That has nothing to do with racial superiority; that has everything to do with spreading fear and hatred of black and dark-skinned people. You're fighting a battle that cannot be won, and for people who don't deserve it, because they themselves would argue with you that they DO in fact think that black people are worthless and that they are inferior and they do fear black men around their families and children and that they do hate them.
So, it's an exercise in futility. The context, the dictionary, the common usage of the word, and the people themselves who are intolerant of black people will all disagree with you. But you'll continue to argue that you're right and I'm wrong, so... we'll make no progress. It's been fun sparring with you though.
04-19-2009, 23:09
Rhyfelwyr
Re: I laugh in the face of White Supremacist groups
ATPG you are not just talking about individual groups, you made blanket statements saying all racists are hateful people. My main concern is not that you are attacking racist ideology, but the very people that uphold it. And then you say that it is OK for you to do this, since they do the same to black people, as if an eye for an eye really works.
If racists are simply racist because they are hateful people and not because of countless other factors within their society, then older people are really hateful. And poor people also seem to be pretty hateful, since they form the backbone for parties like the BNP. And Germans 70 years ago were all very very hateful people, its almost like they were a hateful race!
I wish people would start realising that every ideology is simply a historic force, racism in particular is caught up in a whole horrible web of ideologies from nationalism to imperialism. Like racism, povert y is one of these forces, or realities, whatever. Thankfully, most people nowadays realise that poverty is a force working within society, and we tackle poverty instead of the poor. The only difference with racism is that it tends to bring nasty consequences beyond those who are caught up in it, and so instead of taking the same sophisticed approach we do to poverty, having serious discussions about how to tackle the problem at the core; instead we make theads titled "I laugh in the face of White Supremacists groups". Not very helpful is it?
And sometimes, you just get an angry teenager or some bloke having a midlife crisis who gets caught up in racist ideologies, which still doesn't make them nasty people they're just badly misguided.
04-19-2009, 23:12
Seamus Fermanagh
Re: I laugh in the face of White Supremacist groups
Labeling such groups as "hateful," is accurate. Rhyf' may well be correct that it isn't helpful, but their stated ideologies make "hateful" more or less descriptive.
They have a right to their views, however insipid. Should they act upon such views, they should receive the full punishment appropriate under the law. I DO think it reasonable for police units to consider membership in one of these hate groups as one factor in putting someone on a "person of interest" list -- as long as the other proprieties to protect a person's rights are maintained.
04-19-2009, 23:28
Askthepizzaguy
Re: I laugh in the face of White Supremacist groups
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr
ATPG you are not just talking about individual groups, you made blanket statements saying all racists are hateful people. My main concern is not that you are attacking racist ideology, but the very people that uphold it. And then you say that it is OK for you to do this, since they do the same to black people, as if an eye for an eye really works.
I do attack racist ideology as being entirely illogical and unfounded by science. I attack the hatred those views represent and say it's not welcome.
Quote:
If racists are simply racist because they are hateful people and not because of countless other factors within their society, then older people are really hateful.
I never made that argument or comparison.
Quote:
And poor people also seem to be pretty hateful, since they form the backbone for parties like the BNP.
I never made that argument or comparison.
Quote:
And Germans 70 years ago were all very very hateful people, its almost like they were a hateful race!
I never made that argument or comparison.
Quote:
I wish people would start realising that every ideology is simply a historic force, racism in particular is caught up in a whole horrible web of ideologies from nationalism to imperialism. Like racism, povert y is one of these forces, or realities, whatever. Thankfully, most people nowadays realise that poverty is a force working within society, and we tackle poverty instead of the poor.
People do address the concerns associated with racism, by spreading the facts, knowledge about genetics, educating people about the sameness of us all, and the worth of all "races" and that we are really one human race. The ignorance persists, stubbornly, because people cling to their faith that certain races are evil. They have faith in that idea, in spite of evidence to the contrary, arguments that have been presented, and the many many good people from those "races".
Now that that has been done, all those who remain are stubborn, hateful people, in my opinion.
Quote:
The only difference with racism is that it tends to bring nasty consequences beyond those who are caught up in it, and so instead of taking the same sophisticed approach we do to poverty, having serious discussions about how to tackle the problem at the core; instead we make theads titled "I laugh in the face of White Supremacists groups". Not very helpful is it?
I don't find defending racists very helpful. And spreading knowledge of these groups who hate everyone, and reporting their actions to the community is helpful. being aware that racism isn't over and there is still more of that ugliness remaining is helpful. People do have a choice; not all elderly, poor, or german people are racist... who made that comparison? Not me. You did.
Because the problem is NOT systemic, it is individual choice, that is why racists HAVE to recruit people. They need to force their views on innocent children, and they need to preach their hate so that they create more ignorant racists. It's not something you're forced to have by SOCIETY, it's a choice to continue to HATE people.
Quote:
And sometimes, you just get an angry teenager or some bloke having a midlife crisis who gets caught up in racist ideologies, which still doesn't make them nasty people they're just badly misguided.
Sometimes a man has a bad day and shoots his boss in the face. That doesn't make him misguided.
People are responsible for their own choices and actions; not genetics, not environment. People have free will, and will be judged and held accountable BY those actions that they freely chose to do.
