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Means what unit that you usually use for ending a battle effectively (such as giving a fatal blow to enemy line, causing massive routs)... I myself prefer to send the Gaesahtae or Tidanotae to give them a final blows..... it made the enemies fled rather quickly... especially after tiresome fights...
Cataphract charges...what? I'm only Armenian! haha!
I don't use elephants ever, so that's out.
So far I've only played eastern factions seriously, so for me infantry is used to either pin the enemy down with their sarissas or sword/shields or soften them up with arrows, stones, javelins.
But cavalry (especially the cataphracts) is my enemy-go-smash! units.
Fire rain by archers :candle:
No Cataphracts, but heavy cavalery is my favourite battleturning unit. The moment of impact and then the mass rout...I love it.
Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam
Where is the scythed chariot option?????
https://img206.imageshack.us/img206/6365/naked1os4.jpg
https://img72.imageshack.us/img72/5185/naked3sd9.jpg
HAHAHAH Cool Pictures of the chariots ^^.
How do you manage to kill anyone?? My skythed chariots only throw them into the air and never kill anybody, except when they are routing....
My favourite are the Elephants, cause they can turn around everything.:book:
Banzai!, did you changed the stats of your chariots?
Picked Cataphracts, but usually any heavy cavalry charge into the back of a tired enemy works - especially when they've been pinned down by sarrisae (sp) for ages, even medium cav can do the job too :smash:
Cataphract charges above all. - Since I mostly play with nomads + AS but I like heavy cavalry charges for all factions (I always try to get Brihenten or any heavy horsemen for the romans).
Its very dramatic how a whole army can brake from a charge of 2-3 units of heavy cavalry:dizzy2:.
I like tindanotte/geasetae a lot aswell but I haven't used them so much.
ouw, personally, I also use cataphract / HC charges, but in my opinion, routing them with "frightening" unit is much more the Ultimate weapon.... I use cataphract charges usually to soften the flanks before the line clash... but that's just a style of fight...
And a line full of Gaesatae will make a scythed chariot unit instantly flee.... :laugh4:
I didn't add the chariots because it's included in the cataphract / HC type...
I like any heavy cav so i'll just say cataphracts.
Heavy cavalry for me. Just love seeing hetairoi charge the backs of doomed enemy forces. makes me feel warm and good inside :yes:
Nothing can match Elephants in causing masive chain routs. I mean, pin the enemy down with your phalanx, and sweep parallel to your sarrisae with your elephants. If they don't immediately die, they will do so very soon for sure.
Maion
Awesome pic Banzai!
Another way to make awesome pics is by playing vanilla. You as Carthage or the Seleucid Empire with Armoured Elephants vs. the Roman Incendiary pigs, both 20 units of them. If the Animals run amok, it gets even more fun. You get nice pics of elephants "playing (pig)soccer".
I voted Cataphracts, awesome if you charge a bunch of lance cavalry in the back!:2thumbsup:
ultimately Naked dudes but most of the time i simply use ranged cavalary whithout any arrows left for the final blow :D sounds crappy but it works :D
Obviously not many people have actually used elephants, it seems. Really the chaos those beasts cause can seriously not be compared to any of the other options in the poll. And don't give me the "elephants die like flies with javelins" or "rout easily with fire" crap, because all other options have their weaknesses :clown:
Maion
I prefer to spam units that are cheap but effective supported by some stronger troops and missile units. It all depends on how much money I can spare.
I am an expert of charging elephants in the back:laugh4: I had my Elephants from Pyrrhos (starting as unit of 18) still when I was fighting the Seleukids near the Caspian Sea, there were 9 left then (so less archers). They open the gates for you and inflict mass rout, sadly they are hard to come by.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maion Maroneios
Heavy lance cavalry is a lot more common and usually also does the job.
Practically anything big and/or heavy smashing into your back at speed is not going to do wonders for your morale, so I think ele's or cavalry will always win my vote. Anything 'frightening' also works to make the enemy morale drop faster, but it's not really a final blow, so, for this particular poll, those units don't get my vote.
Casse Chariots!!!
Used well they mop up half an engaged army easily, all you have to do is hold the line for a few minutes, even if you are outnumbered 3 to 1.
Cataphract Elephants. :beam:
They're heavy cavalry and frightening superarmoured shock troops all combined into one giant biomass of BADASS! :2thumbsup:
Rather Pontic/Seleucid Chariots then, nice scythes!:beam:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mediolanicus
Always love when these things crash into unsuspecting AI units, they flie into the air, lose formation and rout, also nice to shred light cavalry.
Drapanai and Rhomphaiaphoroi charges to the enemy rear pretty much end anyone's day.
elephants, definatly. I love waiting paitently for the enemy to get tired against my line and then sending those awesome beasts do their work. Ive never had them run amok yet, and halfway through your battle most if not all of the enemy skirmishers used their javelins. So elephants have my vote.
PedEx FTW!!!11!1
Indeed, I'm surprised that these two didn't get their own option. Thraikioi Peltastai are also good in that role.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignopotens
usually charge with whatever is remaining , so i picked the levy option :P
I'm gonna vote Catapracts. They are the best when used to annihilate (spelling?) heavy infantry, when the've been stuck on a phalanx. Normaly I would vote Elephants but I am a little reckless with them, and I ussually charge them at the first unit waiting on the other side of the gate when attacking a city. That unit, more often than not, Is peltasts sooooo bye-bye elephants. I tend to think my elephants are invincible...yeah...not so.
I picked elephants since out of the choices they were the one where having even a single unit of them on my side has a massive effect on the battle.
But for the unit I use most often it would probably be medium cavalry. Generally faster than heavy cav and with better stamina(and I suspect cataphracts, although I don't have the experience to back that up), I find them much more useful for repeated charges to break an enemy.
I rarely build cavalry or elite infantry; I just find them cost ineffective. So I tend to rely on a combination of archers, phalanx and swamping the enemy from all sides, thus the levie option fits the bill for me.
I voted under the "Gesatae/frightening unit" option because it seemed the most related.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frontline1944
That result of my pool is not too surprising for the first place, the HC are the best choice to wreck enemy line and routing them... but I do surprised when there is no one mention for slings... I can remember when there was a someone call EB with it's slingers from hell...
If you can get slingers around to the back of an enemy, then they'll decimate pretty much anyone with a few volleys, however slingers will always get cut to ribbons in a melee, so cavalry are usually a better option - generally faster for flanking and better in meleeQuote:
Originally Posted by Cute Wolf
Use light cavalry. That is all I use in my current Eperios campaign. Prodromoi and Illyrioi Hippies are relatively cheap (~2.000 mnai), are fast, barely tire and their charges are jut as effective as any other cavalry. Since I never use even the heaviest of my cavalry in melee, light cavalry is all I train.Quote:
Originally Posted by WarpGhost
Nothing in the game beats the effectiveness of a good old-fashioned charge in the rear. It does enormous amount of damage and has routed just about every unit I have ever encountered from the first charge. Fells like cheating, really. Even Triarii and Pezhetairoi, when engaged with another one of my units, can be routed with a single light mounted charge in the back.
On the other hand, surrounding the enemy is slow and often ineffective, especially when done to phalanxes and elites. AP units, with clubs, axes, flaxes, etc solve this, but still, it is unnecessarily inexpedient, which costs you men.
very sad indeed, the Spartans didn't have the "Frighten" attributes. In their description, the writer said that Spartans does indeed had a frightening effect in enemy morale...
One word:
Companions.
Heavy cav always does the trick. If I have Geastae I use them in the front lines to scare off the more weak willed troops. Plus they are too hard to kill to keep in reserve. They can hold the line forever to give my cav time to go around the enemy line.
Take a guess at the choice I've picked ~:joker:
Well, look at that. I finally see a vote for slingers... :clown:Quote:
Originally Posted by The Persian Cataphract
I prefer frightening infatry like Celtic champions, rhomphaia guys, peltastai makedonikoi, but also heavy cav. But my cavalry is usualy busy killing archers, heavy non-spear infantry and taking care of already routing units.
even though I voted cataphracts, I must point out that I have often used the elephants. the only problem with them IMHO is their vulnerability to javelins and certan types of archers, however as you said yourself, that's normally not a problem. but the reason I did not vote for them for sure is simply one word: cost. think about it; why have a single elephant unit, when 3 or 4 cataphracts/hetairoi can be made in their place? and far more useful and less javelin easy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maion Maroneios
:idea2:Quote:
Originally Posted by The Persian Cataphract
cabbage?
@frontline44: it can't be slingers-it must be cabbages :clown:
3 Words:Quote:
Originally Posted by IrishHitman
Baktrian Super Heavies.
So just train more cavalry :grin:. How many mounted units does your normal army have? My armies usually have a mounted general and 4-5 units of horsemen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andronikos
I personally find that I rarely rout large portions of the enemy army. Probably cause I like to play Roman and kill Hellenes, whose Phalanxes rarely break and rout en masse.
So, usually I get some cavalry behind them (yes I play on huge), to kill off archers and get ready to charge backs while my own missile troops (I just love Accensii and Cretan Archers) take their toll on vulnerable enemies and one or two of the Hellenic archers firing flaming arrows. Meanwhile I use part of my infantry to chuck pilae at them and go in and hold them till I can concentrate on those phalanxes, meanwhile the rest of my infantry flanks the phalangites and makes them walk all over, breaking their line into isolated phalanx. Then I create local quantitative superiority and concentrate on the phalanxes one by one with infantry and Cav. Some will rout, others not, but even repeated massed cavalry charges at their backs rarely makes a line of phalangites break. So I rout/kill them one or two at a time by creating local superiority, using my superior mobility and all the while cursing these AS Graeculi wannabees, and being sorely tempted to Blitz AS instead of fighting 1-3 phalanx battles every turn.
Hence I rarely have a battle-turning unit. It is a combination of slaughter, flaming arrows and cavalry/infantry charges that routs or kills those damn Phalangites.
The Sweboz owns large parts of northern Europe and are killing off all Gauls, so soon I shall be fighting them, perhaps they rout easier.
Say Maion, I think this barbaroi has never seen a flurry of dory/sarissae/xyston crushing his own kin. Let's be kind and give him a bird's eye view of it!
*impales Macilrille by the groin and lifts him into the sky*
See? it's simple, Sarissae in the middle, poliskrate on the flanks, and the Hetairoi going ALL HEIL MAKEDONIA at the barbaroi's sorry buttocks.
TRUTH AND HOPE TO FATHERLAND!!! ALL HEIL MAKEDONIA!!!
I think I have already commented on this sort of spam somewhere else.Quote:
Originally Posted by satalexton
It would instead be interesting to know how you Hellene Lovers fight the various barbarians.
General + 1-3 cavalry units, depends on mine and enemy factions. Sometimes I have armies composed only of cavalry with few archers and light infantry, in that case I make enemy army route with cavalry.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aemilius Paulus
But good idea, I'll try using light cavalry more.
1) when playing with Carthage
I usually hold my line with mix of light infantry, kill equites consulares with my superior calvary, and then hit romans from the back and rear with elephants and/or other calvary. Iberi Caetrati are the best for pursuing routing pedites extraordinari and their cowardly comrades. Rarely some romans actually escape from me, and, if some of them escape, they go to their barbaropolis, which i sack in next turn:smash:
2) when playing with KH/Makedonia/Epeiros
I just let romans to taste my sarissas in their mouth. Then i tell them a joke, and they really do lough bloody. :no:
I think mobbing them with levies or just plain barbarian units like celtic spearmen can be effective for an enemy route. otherwise, in the campaign game, i train a unit of those hoplites just to scare the senses out of those guys:laugh4:
With the charge of the Pushtigbane Pahlavan. :smash:
Ye olde Parthian 1-2 punch. (pincushion/ Grivpanzer combo)
Needless to say...I picked the Katatank charge.
Elephantes Kataphraktoi: Your Number 1 source of finely grounded barbaroi. Cans and preservatives sold seperately. Batteries not included.
Birthday suits for the win!!!
As far as I know there is only one barbarian faction in EB, but perhaps you meant Barbarian Ivasion, there you have two barbarian factions of course.:clown:Quote:
Originally Posted by Macilrille
Sorry couldn't resist
About Elephants. I used them sometimes as Epeiros, but they are to expensive and need too much baby-sitting in my opinion. So I stick to cavalery, Prodromoi are a fine unit. If I play as KH, I use Hippeis Xystophoroi (how I already posted).
About the Elephantes Kataphraktoi, I only used them once in my Baktrian Campaign, they where good, but expensive and slow. The main problem I have with elephants is their limited AoR.
Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam
WELL SAID! =DQuote:
Originally Posted by Zett
Here, have Sōkrátēs :balloon3: Notice how you are gaining in ownership of civillized balloons =]
I believe this thread isn't about the cost-effectiveness of units, but their actual ability to cause mass routs and turn the tide during battle. Regardless of cost, whatever anyone says, elephants are just the best. NO other unit can cause, after being properly used of course, as much amok as elephants do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibrahim
As for your post satalexton, I'm sorry I can't say anything. I promised the Nice Fairy I'll be a good boy and behave.
Maion
LOL, thanks ;-)Quote:
Originally Posted by Maion Maroneios
But I would like to know how to best use Hellene armies, they are far too immobile for my taste. How do you Hellene Lovers most effectively employ the grinding force of the Phalanx? Just pin the enemy (literally) and flank them with cavalry? What about your skirmishers? Archers?
This is how i lead battles with Hellenic armies:
1) First line: phalanx: engage the enemy and pin them, or let the enemy to engage phalanx. In most cases (especially when fighting romans), enemy is having some reserves in the back.
2) For this enemy reserves im using my slingers: their task is to shoot at them while they go right-left and trying to find place to engage my phalanx. Sometimes, i send some non phalanx spearmen (levy hoplites, heavy spearman) to engage enemy reserves. At this time my calvary walks around and eventually fight generals/ other enemy calvary.
3) i use heavy peltasts to throw their javelins in the back of enemies who engaged my phalanx. When they run aut of ammo, i attack with them on points where enemy seem to break first. I use my calvary on points where my phalanx is about to loose. With addition of some extra light infantry i attack in front of engaged enemy.
4) Light calvary/missle calvary i use to pursue routing enemies.
5) sometimes its good to have one or two phalanx units in the back of main phalanx: because you never know if some enemy unit succeed to find its path to back of main phalanx.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macilrille
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
As KH I usually deploy my troops like this or something similar. If the enemy come closer I order my Spendonetai behind my Phalanx (if I'm on higher ground and do not hit my own troops, I continue fiering from this position). My Hippies Xystophoroi (or any other cavalry) normally waits at the flanks or is hidden in a small forest nearby and waits until the biggest part of the enemy is fighting with my Phalangitai and charges then (battle turning moment). Toxotai are ordered to shoot at enemies with no armor, like other skirmisher and cavalry (if they have a higher ground bonus).
Never attack with an Phalanx army
NEVER attack if you fight a bridgebattle (only if you have a second crossing, but even then...)
NEVER attack an enemy Phalanx army if they have higher ground
Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
yes, let your enemy smash your left flank:clown:
Normally two units of Thorakitai are more then enough. Even if they sent their general in, cause at this point my cavalery is already behind him:charge:.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibrahim
Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam
one must provide the enemy a visible weakpoint, so that the foe strikes an anticipated point, and thus loses his control of the circumstances... Besides, thats an echlon(sp) formation! A fitting tactic of a spiritual heir of Alexandros!
I'd tend to use a similar formation for most of my battles as AS or Makedonia, except with either peltastai or other sword+javelin infantry behind the thorakitai, and usually deploy the cavalry so it can support either side of the line if needed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zett
they can't run very fast y'know. and it is possible the enemy has more cavalry than you, so some will slow down your cavalry, then the rest would swing round the thorakitai and smash them phalanxes. all you have to do is put a single unit a cavalry to prevent this. I speak out of unfortunate experiance :shame:Quote:
Originally Posted by Zett
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
see above :clown:
I have no problem with echelons in the makedonian manner, but I believe in some cavalry support on the left flank. Thorakitai can be out flanked.
and no I'm not taking the Artificial idiot into acount.:clown:
Checked and found my doubts about that "echelon formation" confirmed - should not one of the flanks be denied for it to be an echelon...?
They're supposed to be "diagonal" relative to the enemy line, right?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Echelon_formation
BTW, unless you are stretching those phalangitai to only three-deep lines, the cavalry will be easily able to move over to the left flank behind the phalanx long before any enemy flank attack can get there... But their very purpose in this setup is not to engage enemy flanks but to immediately move behind the enemy center and rout it in one massed charge. If enemy flanks refuse to be evaded, it is better to have all cavalry in one spot so as to task one of the units with distracting the enemy flank while the rest continue on their way. With cavalry distributed on both flanks, you may need not one but two units just to clear the path (and possibly take high casualties in the process).
Zett's line-up is a very offensive one; Ibrahim's cautioning advice is defense-oriented.
If the basic tactic behind the all-out offensive move works out, defense will not be necessary/flanks can be bolstered with units from the center where the enemy has already routed. If this works, the enemy is, depending upon where the cavalry gets sufficient manoeuvering space for a massed charge, gradually rolled up either from his left flank or his center. Center is to be preferred because it should create more enemy "flank-area" to be exploited. Once the first units are routing, the cavalry is free to aid in a more defensive role if need be. Thorakitai are tough enough to survive against most enemies until then.
Of course, if the enemy makes a Pahlavan catank charge with six units to your left flank, the entire formation must be re-deployed to a more defensive pattern. But then, one unit of h. xystophoroi would have only bought five seconds before routing anyway.
From my experience with KH, I can say that this formation usually *works*. Even without KH phalangitai (use hoplitai, thorakitai, thureophoroi instead).
interesting observations there.:balloon2::balloon2: for ye.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nachtmeister
that's basically where I got my advice from-when I played EB muliplayer (or vs. pahlava in SP), the offensive form was used to deal with other players, and often the opposing player would have cavalry on both flanks (in fact, I often ended up fighting pahlava-even thorakitai will struggle vs. griefpanvar). all too often the left flank would literally be run over, while my right flank is bogged down or even routed-since I can't focus on both flanks, leaving the center to be screwed; bear in mind, the enemy was not in echelon. I later had to fine tune the formations, so that the flanks cancel each other out, leaving the center to duke it out-it worked in my later games..one technique is to add cavalry to the left; another is attach fast moving troops that are good vs. cavalry.
Its all about the Elephants. I just finished Baktria 1.2 and the Royal Army with Kata-Phants and various small elite inf ran around Iran annihilating endless grey stacks. Sooooo satisfying. Of course they never even saw a HA, I sent a Merc General with Merc Alan Nobles to play with the Saka.
They really do turn a battle in a matter of seconds, and no other unit comes close for me. I have a dreadful inablity to utilise chariots, perhaps they are in the same class but I will never know.
Of course I see the beauty of Kataphractoi, I am a big fan of Armenia (its my current campaign) and there's a great thrill when my line begins to waver, the Caucasian spearmen I left in guard mode are crumbling (what was I thinking? should've ponied up for some Georgians) and then the horns ring out and the FL and FH smash in from the flanks, 180+ lances ploughing a bloody swathe across the battlefield. If the elephants are a volcano, then the Kataphracts are the flood.
Sometimes I just line up 4 FM's and go straight into the enemy line for the pure joy of it. I don't suicide on pikes or anything like that, my Arkah is bloodthirsty but not reckless. The massive blow really simplifies otherwise humdrum mopping up battles.
The stuff about pila, or frightening the enemy with your willy (not to mention slings and arrows!), well its no so much about being "battle turning" as part of a tactical build-up. I like the Lusotannan and german battles, with ambush, skirmish, strike and retreat, then a hard fight. Everyone plays their part, no-one really dominates. I play the Gauls a bit more up-front, but the presence of Gesaetae accelerates battle trends rather than transforms them.
If you have two balanced well-matched full stack armies facing one another and one of them has one unit arriving as a reinforcement, which unit would make the most difference? If you were fighting that battle, what enemy arrival would make you change your posture, your formation, your battle plans, your attitude to life, your underwear? I vote Elephantoi Kataphraktoi above all others.
Interesting point. Echelon has a number of meanings (inf and cav formations, also rear and forward echelons in the sense of staff and frontline components, also air and ground echelons in combined arms).Quote:
Originally Posted by Nachtmeister
I seem to dimly recall it can refer to any "staggered" battle array, that is acies triplex is an "en echelon" formation. It can be used to describe an oblique order of battle (ie drawn up diagionally) but IIRC it means formations broken down into components with clear gaps between them.
I don't think of classic hoplite and phalanx klines as echeloned: weren't they continuous lines and rather compact?
The use of echelon used in the wikipaedia article is extremely obscure: at times it confuses it with refusals and oblique orders of attack that you describe. It also mentions Hannibal using an echelon at Cannae, which is strictly the classic double envelopement, and also the Thebans vs Spartans (wtf? wasn't that a superdense hoplite battle?). A bit wikifuzzy if you ask me.
Even though I know how devastating elephants can be if properly used I chose cataphracts/cavalry.
A well times and well placed cavalry charge can break almost any enemy army, especially if the soldiers being charged are already busy fighting the rest of your army. They're also better at wiping out routing soldiers than elephants hehe.
Same. I also tend to avoid elephants mostly due to their cost and upkeep. Even in a large empire, they tend to pack quite a punch on the treasury. Might as well invest in a bunch of Celto-Hellenic Hoplites and their mothers rather than a single unit of easy-to-kill elephants.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeathEmperor
"Ok, they have Elephnatoi, let's change our pants!":laugh4:Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclops
Yes, Elephantoi Kataphraktoi are fearsome, but a well placed unit of Petastai is also "fearsome". The only faction that uses Elephantoi from time to time is Karthadastim. Never saw the AI using Elepantes Kataphraktoi in a campaign.
Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam
My thanks, Ibrahim!Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibrahim
If we are talking about multiplayer here, the entire army setup can be (depends on opposing unit roster) pretty much useless - far too expensive and easily countered as in the "stone, scissors, paper"-scheme in spite of some missile and cavalry units being present. Horse archers/lancers, elephants, cataphracts, more numerous but far cheaper AP infantry, possibly even siege weapons (never tried those in MP, are they even available at reasonable cost?) are the first that come to mind for a dedicated killer setup. At least if it is to be used in an offensive role or without a serious elevation advantage. Then again, KH fighting Pahlava is about as un-historic as it gets (only topped by KH vs. Saka) afaik. Zett's stack looks like it is intended for Rome-bashing or taking on Gauls, Thraikians, Qart Hadast or maybe even a diadochoi army in single player campaigns, mopping up the entire map without retraining...
Cyclops, you are right about the "rather accelerate existing trend than turn battle" point.
The battle between Thebes and Sparta you are referring to did involve an echelon formation on the Theban side however - denied right flank and most of the center and applied a literal weight-advantage of staggering proportions on the left flank. It was not just a simple echelon, however - the center and right flank were severely thinned out to bring up the men needed for the left flank.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
The image is an understatement of how many troops were moved from the main battle line to support the column on the left flank. Also, the entire line would have been diagonal except for the column on the left, not only the outer right flank. This would not have been obvious to the spartans as they had no bird's eye view of the battlefield, thus denying them the opportunity to adapt their formation accordingly. All this of course under the assumption that what I read about the "canon" on the way the battle went is correct.
After some typical Spartan heroics, the 80-men-deep column is supposed to have literally bulldozed the Spartan elites (who would have been maybe something like six to ten men deep, maybe even twenty but by far not enough to hold against the push of eighty), trampling and stabbing those who were toppled and causing the Spartan right flank to rout or simply obliterating it, then turning on the remaining, now severely outnumbered and disoriented Spartans.
[EDIT] I should sleep sufficiently before posting - went right past your point... Well if the echelon strictly refers to formations with distinct spaces between individual units then the battle of Sparta and Thebes was not fought with echelon formations.
I was always under the impression that "echelon" does not require spacing but rather just a relative displacement. Can't turn to any written sources on this - so I stand corrected. [/EDIT]
Hmmm, I believe this requires a seperate thread. There are tons of tricks and aces a Hellenistic Strategos can deploy, depending on the enemy each time he has to face. I'd be more than happy to share my experience with you, or anyone else for that matter :beam:Quote:
Originally Posted by Macilrille
Maion
I voted massed levies.
Not because of their actual superiority, just because I can do more with a full stack (of anything, but I'm thinking of pantodapoi phalangitai, peltastai, hippakontistai, a couple of archers and a AS general) than with a single unit of elephants.
For the very same 23000 $ and roughly the same 6000 in upkeep.
Multiplayer may be very different, but with a 23000 $ (or £ or €...) stack of "levies" you can rout anything the AI can field, conquer Asia, and bring the guys back home for Christmas, or whatever.
With 23000 $ of elephants, i can fear 2 units of uphill javelins.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mediterraneo
I agree with you as long as short-term campaigns are concerned... But a raid deep into enemy territory without reinforcements/retraining...? Levies die faster than professionals, and thus either you are a very superior battlefield tactician for being able to rout the enemy without much of a melee engagement - or you play very defensively, expanding slowly.
But for any single campaign battle, you are right. Also, every man helps keep up public order in settlements before and after the battle...
I've seen a charge by 20 Baktrian Late Bodyguards rout a whole Saba Army in the desert in an online match. Levies aren't that great.
It would be a difficult feat to perform against AI, much less human being. Tell me where you have seen that, and maybe I will believe you. Your post is an obvious exaggeration. The BGs could not have done it alone. I mean sure, if that Saba army was already facing some Baktrian infantry, then yes, a charge in the back could rout them all, but otherwise, no.Quote:
Originally Posted by antisocialmunky
I don't know if you do stand corrected.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nachtmeister
There are multiple meanings for any word, and my (unsourced,dimly recollected) definition is of the 18th century "horse and musket" sense, as is my use of oblique OOB and refusing the flank etc. IIRC there's a fabulous book about "Battle Tactics of Napoleon and his chief opponents".
A little googling shows that the term echelon is used for a diagonal formations (eg aircraft), so it my be that my definition was overly narrow.
Gee its agreat little thread this, lots of interesting technical points about suitable stack constitution.
At that Spartan Theban battle (I always forget, was it Manitnaea, or Leuctra or Tegea?), wasn't the Theban steamroller aided by some inopportune Spartan lollygagging? The Theban Sacred Band lined up on the left :dizzy2:, so the Spartans crossed over to counter and got a little tangled and were engaged whilst in disorder? Certainly my impression was there was some manoueveruing difficulties, which suggested the Spartans were not as disciplined (as well as not nearly as numerous) as at Plataea.
Yet again guys, you fail to understand the question of this poll. It doesn't ask what is the most effective unit you've used in your campaigns in terms of cost-effectiveness, rather what do you believe is the ultimate battle-turning unit. Have you ever tried to compare the devastation caused by each of the poll options to see which is the most effective in turning the tide during a battle?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mediterraneo
Maion