Twenty years after the wall

It's hard to believe that the 20th anniversary of the dismantling of the Berlin Wall is this month. A symbol of all that divided East & West, seemingly impregnable and permanent. And then the wall & barbed wire, and the barriers it stood for, was destroyed. It was certainly the most momentous event to occur in Europe since the collapse of the Nazi Empire.

By the end of May 1989 the Goddess of Democracy statue was unveiled a continent away in Tiananmen Square, Beijing.

Soviet troops withdraw from Afghanistan after a nine year occupation.

The Communist Party of Poland voted to legalize Solidarity, the independent trade union that spawned a huge social movement.

In 1989 it was possible to speak of a "peace dividend", when, according to the tenets of the New World Order, all the money that had gone into military spending could suddenly be invested in social spending or reducing the budget deficit. So much for that theory, eh?

Now, in a different era, we face the challenge of remembering and commemorating the demise of one of the great symbols of tyranny.

1989, freedom's spring.

Let me beat my Hungarian friends to it and mention that Hungary played a leadership role in making this possible for the rest of the world. Their shed blood earned them freedoms and loosened the power of the government enough that it made a decision to let thousands of East Germans out of the bloc, thus making the wall effectively useless as it could easily be circumvented. This led to the East German boss eventually having to resign and move to Chile.

:bow:

Yes, the wall's demise began with the removal of miles of barbed wire separating Hungary from Austria.

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Originally Posted by Hosakawa Tito

Yes, the wall's demise began with the removal of miles of barbed wire separating Hungary from Austria.

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But after that at a 'PanEuropean picnic' several EGs escaped. When EGs still in East Germany heard about this they flocked to the West German embassy in Budapest and eventually camped out in Buda being fed by charity. The Hungarian government ended up opening the border for them and letting them leave without exit visas or any proper documentation. When EGs still in EG heard about this, even more came and there was a mass exodus.

EDIT: oh yeah, and not just barbed wire, but mines as well.

This is yet another example of the triumph of the people over their governments who would wish to keep them in their place. We should not forget those in the East who risked everything to fight for their right to free movement and simple, basic human rights.

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Originally Posted by CountArach

This is yet another example of the triumph of the people over their governments who would wish to keep them in their place. We should not forget those in the East who risked everything to fight for their right to free movement and simple, basic human rights.

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Well, perhaps, but simple people power does not work, as those who were brave enough to pick up a gun in '56 know...

The entire world watched as the Hungarian people rose up against communism, did nothing and let them get crushed by the furious Russian response. People power can not ever do anything alone, people power had to wait decades before the idiocy of soviet communism became hard reality and the entire joke came tumbling down.

I had quote in my sig sometime time ago, went something like

"the first crack in the Berlin wall, began with a hole in a flag in Hungary"

Much good the end of communism has done, well there is no more torture I think, but the country is still nothing but a sink hole, pathetic how improvement seems to have left Hungary behind.:smash:

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Originally Posted by Default the Magyar

Well, perhaps, but simple people power does not work, as those who were brave enough to pick up a gun in '56 know...

The entire world watched as the Hungarian people rose up against communism, did nothing and let them get crushed by the furious Russian response. People power can not ever do anything alone, people power had to wait decades before the idiocy of soviet communism became hard reality and the entire joke came tumbling down.

I had quote in my sig sometime time ago, went something like

"the first crack in the Berlin wall, began with a hole in a flag in Hungary"

Much good the end of communism has done, well there is no more torture I think, but the country is still nothing but a sink hole, pathetic how improvement seems to have left Hungary behind.:smash:

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The problem is that when Hungary transitioned it allowed direct foriegn investment and lost everything. They should have used indirect foriegn investment so that everything stayed in Hungarian hands. Also, there are so many socialist elements left over.

Indeed, commies are everywhere and the place is run by idotic scumbags...:dizzy2:

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Originally Posted by Just Vuk Again

The problem is that when Hungary transitioned it allowed direct foriegn investment and lost everything. They should have used indirect foriegn investment so that everything stayed in Hungarian hands. Also, there are so many socialist elements left over.

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I don' think that's the problem. The problem is that Hungary doesn't have any industry to speak of and has a considerable debt...

You can't build economy on shopping malls and banks...

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Originally Posted by Sarmatian

I don' think that's the problem. The problem is that Hungary doesn't have any industry to speak of and has a considerable debt...

You can't build economy on shopping malls and banks...

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Sure, Szeged lost its industry with Trianon, but that does not mean that it could not make more. In fact, it started to develop industry under the socialist regime, but the socialism just was not sustainable and the country got into huge debt. The problem is then that it opened its assets to direct foriegn investment and a lot of investors bought the industry up just to close it down to make sure that it did not become competition. The country was hungry for its own industry and plenty of investors would have been willing to invest MONEY in Hungarian businesses through bonds and such (as no Hungarians had money of their own after years of socialism). Right now foriegn companies are not going to build industry to compete with their own and there are more profitable places for them to build branches, that is why industry is not developing. The mistake was using direct foriegn investment instead of indirect foriegn investment. The socialism elements left over in society now are making sure that no one has enough money to start their own up, which is why I mentioned them.

EDIT: and where did the debt come from BTW?

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was opened on 9 November 1989.

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It was in November or May?

Kinda funny that this hardly gets any attention here. Not very surprising though, people could get reservations about socialism.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Kinda funny that this hardly gets any attention here. Not very surprising though, people could get reservations about socialism.

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Errr, in the rather Conservative country of Australia we get no coverage either...

There is likely to be more coverage in November.

:2thumbsup:

I'm afraid the wall came down in November 1989. Hence the lack of coverage. No leftist conspiracy.

The cracks in the Iron Curtain started twenty years ago in spring and summer. In China, democratic demonstrations took place this month. In South Africa, the end of apartheid was announced.

The year is more important than exact months or dates. 1989 was a true Annus Mirabilis. The greatest year since 1789. The end of history, the end of that wretched short European century of 1914-1989.

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Originally Posted by CountArach

Errr, in the rather Conservative country of Australia we get no coverage either...

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This is a big thing for Europe, not for Australia. The greatest historical event I had to pleasure to see with my own eyes even if I was too young to understand it's significance, the end of an era, the victory of individual freedom over ABSOLUTE CONTROL. But our socialists still can't come to terms with the fact that the great leap forward and the cultural revolution aren't the best thing that ever happened to China and that it wasn't Gorbatjov who won the cold war.

These things need time.

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

I'm afraid the wall came down in November 1989.

The year is more important than exact months or dates.

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ahum.

It's now time for the exams, kids are rolling from the assemblyline of the red machine as we speak to be further indoctrinated with leftist propaganda on universities, I bet there isn't a single question in the exams about the wall.

The right-wing of this forum never ceases to amuse me :laugh4:

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Originally Posted by CountArach

The right-wing of this forum never ceases to amuse me :laugh4:

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Ask any dutchie on our forums if our educational system could just be little biased. You wouldn't believe it.

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Originally Posted by CountArach

The right-wing of this forum never ceases to amuse me :laugh4:

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Another stunningly brilliant and substantial post from the left. :no: Foreign idea, why don't you criticize his argument instead of him? If you are not going to criticize a relevant point in the thread, you should not just post for the sake of attacking someone and taking the thread off course. :bow:

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Originally Posted by Fragony

ahum.

It's now time for the exams, kids are rolling from the assemblyline of the red machine as we speak to be further indoctrinated with leftist propaganda on universities, I bet there isn't a single question in the exams about the wall.

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I don't know about elsewhere, but in the UK GCSE and A level both have options for the Cold War - most of which end in 1989, and the OCR GCSE certainly has a section on themes, including the Cold War and fall of the Wall (something like 1945-1997).

Children are of course properly taught of the evils of capitalism in other subjects.

As a side note, educational systems are always biased from any point of view - for example I was taught (as an example) that Stalinism was the natural consequence of Communism, something I now completely disagree with - it's just what my teacher thought. Especially in subjects with 'subjective' or opinion-related answers, bias is always present, but it can go either way.

:2thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Just Vuk Again

Another stunningly brilliant and substantial post from the left. :no: Foreign idea, why don't you criticize his argument instead of him? If you are not going to criticize a relevant point in the thread, you should not just post for the sake of attacking someone and taking the thread off course. :bow:

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Thank you Vuk. Do you ever wonder why the euro youngsta's are so violently anti-american? You must think what did we do wrong! It's everything they know, it is everything that is taught to them. In Flemish schoolbooks for toddlers for example you have this villain that sounds exactly like 'Dow Jones' when you read it out loud, I don't know about you but that qualifies as sublimal messages to me. In history classes we are taught that, ah well a lot of vietnam veterans here I really don't want them to be disgusted to much by us euro's but think village burn kill them all. Brainwashing pure and simple, teach them to be ashamed and afraid when they are young and you can fit them right in into the collective.

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Originally Posted by Just Vuk Again

Another stunningly brilliant and substantial post from the left. :no: Foreign idea, why don't you criticize his argument instead of him? If you are not going to criticize a relevant point in the thread, you should not just post for the sake of attacking someone and taking the thread off course. :bow:

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What is his argument? :inquisitive:

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Originally Posted by CountArach

What is his argument? :inquisitive:

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What you responded to

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Originally Posted by Fragony

ahum.

It's now time for the exams, kids are rolling from the assemblyline of the red machine as we speak to be further indoctrinated with leftist propaganda on universities, I bet there isn't a single question in the exams about the wall.

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1) Teachers teach to a syllabus - why should they change the syllabus for just one year?
2) Why do you assume that the Left wished the wall stayed up. Most of the Left is socially liberal... and The Wall represents everything opposed to that idea.
3) You are basing your entire argument on conjecture and the experiences of yourself, not actual sources.
4) Why should I feel it necessary to actually pose these questions when you dismiss public education as "the red machine"? That shows a complete lack of commitment to serious discussion/debate.

I predict that by this November, the vast leftist ABSOLUTE CONTROL of Dutch society will have been defeated. :knight:

Freedom to the Netherlands will have been restored. And then, this November, at last, the Dutch media and education will finally be free to devote massive attention to the twentieth anniversary of the fall of the Wall.

:yes:



I just had a vision. I predict that the vast leftist stranglehold on Dutch society will collapse exactly on the Ninth of November. Mark my words.

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Originally Posted by CountArach

1) Teachers teach to a syllabus - why should they change the syllabus for just one year?
2) Why do you assume that the Left wished the wall stayed up. Most of the Left is socially liberal... and The Wall represents everything opposed to that idea.
3) You are basing your entire argument on conjecture and the experiences of yourself, not actual sources.
4) Why should I feel it necessary to actually pose these questions when you dismiss public education as "the red machine"? That shows a complete lack of commitment to serious discussion/debate.

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Well I would be willing to explain why I detest socialism, any idealism kinda detests me. Why would you dislike socialism when everything goes right, perfect society, but so are all utopian theory's. But I wouldn't call it very realistic. Idealism went a bit too far though, a good smack around the head I just deserved at times. Too much. Lately saw about the Australian immigration policy, that is harsh even by my standards by the way.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Well I would be willing to explain why I detest socialism, any idealism kinda detests me. Why would you dislike socialism when everything goes right, perfect society, but so are all utopian theory's. But I wouldn't call it very realistic. Idealism went a bit too far though, a good smack around the head I just deserved at times. Too much. Lately saw about the Australian immigration policy, that is harsh even by my standards by the way.

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Way to address the points I was trying to make...

May I take that as permission to go on laughing at the Right?

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

I'm afraid the wall came down in November 1989. Hence the lack of coverage. No leftist conspiracy.

The cracks in the Iron Curtain started twenty years ago in spring and summer. In China, democratic demonstrations took place this month. In South Africa, the end of apartheid was announced.

The year is more important than exact months or dates. 1989 was a true Annus Mirabilis. The greatest year since 1789. The end of history, the end of that wretched short European century of 1914-1989.

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I wish we had teachers like you in The Neds. Sound knowledge goes a long way toward stimulating kids to think for themselves. Without it, you get the sort of conspiracy nonsense that abounds in this thread. Boring.

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Originally Posted by CountArach

May I take that as permission to go on laughing at the Right?

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If you must. It's like I have always said, the left needs a miracle the right needs patience. Laugh all you want.

:jumping: Adrian is back! :jumping:

~~-~~-~~<o0o>~~-~~-~~

1989 is such a vast subject, that only a big essay would do it any justice. I am not going to write one here, and I can't think of any of the top of my head.

Instead, I thought it would be great fun to check newspapers from the period. Fantastic! Articles written without the knowledge that in six months time, the world would be a different place.


Twenty years ago, to the date.

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East Germany Losing Its Edge
By FERDINAND PROTZMAN, Special to The New York Times
Published: Monday, May 15, 1989

East Germany is the Communist world's vaunted economic success story, hailed as proof that traditional German values of hard work, discipline and thrift can translate Karl Marx's theories into reality.

[If ever Tribesy was called for, the above is it. What bollox. :laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:]


While other Communist economies are pursuing market-oriented reforms, Erich Honecker, East Germany's 76-year-old leader, and his colleagues on the ruling Politburo -average age of 67 - flatly reject them. The leaders say that the Soviet Union may need Mikhail Gorbachev's perestroika, but that East Germany, with an economy shaped solely by the tenets of Marxist-Leninist ideology, is performing admirably.

[...]

But Western analysts and diplomatic officials say East German economic growth is grinding to a near halt, despite its past success. [...]''East Germany is the odd man out in Eastern Europe now,'' one official said. ''Many of the countries believe that East Germany's policies are weakening their attempts at reform.'' Several Problems

A Western diplomat in East Berlin said: ''They are caught by several dilemmas. One is the rising expectations in an era when Gorbachev's moves promise exciting developments. The populace here is seizing on the day-to-day economic frustrations they face and getting unhappy. The mood is worse than ever.''

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Originally Posted by Fragony

If you must. It's like I have always said, the left needs a miracle the right needs patience. Laugh all you want.

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It's funny. I've always thought that the Right was the Left's miracle.

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Originally Posted by CountArach

It's funny. I've always thought that the Right was the Left's miracle.

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The left is perverted, now they defended someone who say women should keep their eyes peeled to the concrete at all times (Tariq Ramadan), the left can't chose between being sorry for muslims for whatever reason and being at least a little western.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

The left is perverted, now they defended someone who say women should keep their eyes peeled to the concrete at all times (Tariq Ramadan), the left can't chose between being sorry for muslims for whatever reason and being at least a little western.

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Sigh... :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by CountArach

Sigh... :rolleyes:

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Well mia muca, he said that women should have their eyes peeled to the concrete at al times, our green friends told us it wasn't translated properly, but I speak french and it was translated just fine.

March 1989, crack in the Wall!:

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West Berlin Journal; Out of the East, Hordes (of Weekend Capitalists)


Published: Monday, March 6, 1989


Though long prepared to stand fast against a military onslaught from the East, West Berlin authorities have been caught off-guard by new weekend invasions of thousands of Polish flea marketeers lured to this island of capitalism by the chance for a quick mark.

They began sometime before Christmas, when several dozen Poles, taking advantage of loosened exit formalities in Poland, appeared at the Krempelmarkt, the muddy weekend flea market near the Berlin wall, with some vodka, clothing and other wares for sale at rock-bottom prices.

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June, Gorbachev puts the fate of East Germany in the hands of East Germany itself. It is from here on up to Honecker

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A GORBACHEV HINT FOR BERLIN WALL

Published: Friday, June 16, 1989

Wrapping up a triumphant visit to West Germany, President Mikhail S. Gorbachev said today that the Berlin wall was not necessarily permanent, but would be taken down only when conditions that created it fell away.

Though Mr. Gorbachev's visit produced no concessions on Berlin's status, his willingness to address the emotionally charged issue in practical terms was taken by West Germans as evidence of the ''new chapter'' that the Soviet leader proclaimed in Soviet-West German relations.

''The wall was raised in a concrete situation and was not dictated only by evil intentions,'' he said at his concluding news conference. East Germany ''decided this as its sovereign right, and the wall can disappear when those conditions that created it fall away,'' he continued. ''I don't see a major problem here.''

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

:jumping: Adrian is back! :jumping:

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Don't I know it? But we have to stop meeting his way, mon vieux, already people are looking at us.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

The left is perverted [..]

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... and the Right is blind. Nice couple, picture them in the dark room on a Friday night.

N'en doutons plus, Olympe, ils se vont égorger. :drama2:

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Well mia muca, he said that women should have their eyes peeled to the concrete at al times, our green friends told us it wasn't translated properly, but I speak french and it was translated just fine.

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Am I defending anyone here? No. I think that it is deplorable. But what I have a problem with is that you lay down all these accusations about the left controlling the education system, yet you then proceed to answer absolutely none of the questions I asked. You have not substantiated a single claim you have made about the education system with anything concrete. If you would care to do so, that would please me greatly.

In February, Honecker vowed that the Wall would not come down

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THE WORLD; The East-West Flow of People and Ideas

Published: Sunday, February 5, 1989

RATHER like the little Dutch boy with his finger in the dike, East Germany's leader, Erich Honecker, vowed recently that the Berlin wall would remain standing for 50 or 100 years since it was needed ''to protect our Republic from thieves, not to speak of those who are ready to disturb stability and peace in Europe.''

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By August, it was clear the tide could not be turned...

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Westward Tide of East Germans Is a Popular No-Confidence Vote

Published: Tuesday, August 22, 1989

Sitting on a bench in the sunny main courtyard of the central reception camp for East German immigrants in this quiet town north of Frankfurt, the East German did not look like someone about to begin a new life.

But like thousands of other East Germans, the 39-year-old tool-and-die maker and a friend ended their summer vacations in Hungary by escaping across the border into Austria, leaving almost everything they owned behind.


The current trend is accelerating. In July, 11,707 East German emigrated to West Germany, according to Bonn Government figures. Government spokesman said Monday that 1,400 East Germans arrived in the West over the weekend. Of those, 980 crossed the border between Austria and Hungary, Austrian officials said.

Western analysts and recent emigres say the rising number of East Germans trying to escape to the West in recent weeks reflects a deepening loss of faith in the Communist system and the nation's leaders, a loss bound to have a profound effect on East Germany's future.

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Originally Posted by CountArach

Am I defending anyone here? No.

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Well I haven't offended anybody yet.

Relax lefties, it isn't your idea that's dead, just the one that have it dying.

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Originally Posted by CountArach

You have not substantiated a single claim you have made about the education system with anything concrete.

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Even his claim about Tariq Ramadan and Rotterdam is erroneous. Both the Left and the Right were divided over his appointment. By the way, what the heck has all this to do with the topic of this thread? :wall:

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Originally Posted by Adrian II

Even his claim about Tariq Ramadan and Rotterdam is erroneous. Both the Left and the Right were divided over his appointment. By the way, what the heck has all this to do with the topic of this thread? :wall:

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The end of your post, I am not the one who posted it.

And creepy indeed. Why would the greens agree with a woman having to peel her eyes at the concrete at all times.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

In Flemish schoolbooks for toddlers for example you have this villain that sounds exactly like 'Dow Jones' when you read it out loud, I don't know about you but that qualifies as sublimal messages to me.

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Brilliant stuff :2thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

I predict that by this November, the vast leftist ABSOLUTE CONTROL of Dutch society will have been defeated. :knight:

Freedom to the Netherlands will have been restored. And then, this November, at last, the Dutch media and education will finally be free to devote massive attention to the twentieth anniversary of the fall of the Wall.

:yes:



I just had a vision. I predict that the vast leftist stranglehold on Dutch society will collapse exactly on the Ninth of November. Mark my words.

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You are clearly part of the leftist conspiracy, mocking those who detected it and all :no:

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Originally Posted by Andres

Brilliant stuff :2thumbsup:

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Well sorry

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Originally Posted by Fragony

The end of your post, I am not the one who posted it.

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Yes you did. It's in #33.

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Originally Posted by Adrian II

Yes you did. It's in #33.

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Originally Posted by Adrian II

:wall:

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nah, 2009

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Why would the greens agree with a woman having to peel her eyes at the concrete at all times.

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Because the greens are cryptofascists, and have been all along. Anti-liberal, anti-progress, anti-rational, anti-human. Fortuyn's murderer was only the first full-blown killer that this cabal has produced. Forget Osama. Ecoterrorism will be a top security threat within ten years from now, mark my words. Few lessons have been learned form the Wall and its demise, on that at least we can (supposedly) agree.

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Originally Posted by Adrian II

Because the greens are cryptofascists, and have been all along..

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Suggestion? It's going to hurt anyway.

I wouldn't say the education system is left-wing biased, not here in the UK at least. At school I had a geography teacher that said Margaret Thatchet was one of the 5 most evil people of all time, and I had a history teacher who called her the "blessed Margaret".

At Uni there is a slight left-wing bias, but I don't think thats a problem since it doesn't affect most of the students I've seen who are obsessed with their "civil liberties". I doubt this slight left-leaning bias is due to a conspiracy rooted in Belgium, instead its probably just because the more idealist liberal types are more likely to want to be involved in the education progress. In any case, I've never found they brainwash people and they make it clear when they are giving a personal opinion.

This thread is bi-polar. One side is the joy and elation of remembering that horrible symbol fall and remembering names like Honecker, Wolf, et al. The other is a dark and twisted world of conspiracy. Or maybe my sense of humor is off. :shrug:

Intresting. Apparently there was a "cold war" and we beat the "Soviets"

Sounds like a good movie:yes:

Some brilliant conspiracy stuff in here, thanks frag needed a laugh.

Great anniversery (though apparently as a lefty im gutted, must say i haven't noticed) a victory for personal freedoms everywhere and a timely reminder to look after our civil liberties in our current nations as well!

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

I'm afraid the wall came down in November 1989. Hence the lack of coverage. No leftist conspiracy.

The cracks in the Iron Curtain started twenty years ago in spring and summer. In China, democratic demonstrations took place this month. In South Africa, the end of apartheid was announced.

The year is more important than exact months or dates. 1989 was a true Annus Mirabilis. The greatest year since 1789. The end of history, the end of that wretched short European century of 1914-1989.

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Well said. :bow:

BTW when do you think the new political century started, judged by the historians 2150 (added some margins there)? 1989 or later, like 2001?

Can be worth noticing that the largest Swedish newspaper did have a large article about the picknic and the opening of the Hungarian border.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

ahum.

It's now time for the exams, kids are rolling from the assemblyline of the red machine as we speak to be further indoctrinated with leftist propaganda on universities, I bet there isn't a single question in the exams about the wall.

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Of course not, only one subject should actually cover it and that's modern history (possibly some politics courses, but I'm quite poor on the knowledge or thier existance). That course should on the other hand always have questions about the wall, or being a horrible course, by missing the greatest event in modern history.

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

Intresting. Apparently there was a "cold war" and we beat the "Soviets"

Sounds like a good movie:yes:

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Depends on what you like, lots of scare and thrilling stuff, very little action and then the bad guys goes on and self-defeat themself with a whisper to the surprice (and joy) to almost everyone.

“Great anniversery (though apparently as a lefty I am gutted, must say I haven't noticed) a victory for personal freedoms everywhere”
Yeap. I remember. Freedom was flooding the world. :sweatdrop:
Then the Right Wing Nationalists started to Ethnic cleansing in Europe. Communism became bad and Nazism good….
The pretty villages went in flames in some areas, some minorities forced to change their ancestors names or/and some countries built wall to separate them from down towns, or have their children ban from schools because too dirty.
The Religious movements started to be preached with bombs and the freedom become slavery from women and “unfaithful”. It took some time from the freedom fighters to become unlawful combatants but it happened…
Genocides happened in a wonderful indifference / indulgences when suited and International Laws became no more than a piece of paper.
Cynicism became the main value, except greed.:2thumbsup:
At least, they were able to die of starvation but FREE.

Er, a lot of difference...

Well im not saying it worked out great for everyone... but certainly East Germany for one... they may have not been able to enjoy the west's financial success but they could enjoy thier democracy... Poland would be another one i assume...

How widespread was most of what you talk about... are you mainly thinking of countries in the balkans....?

I would say on the whole it was a step in the right direction... maybe we (the west) could have done a bit more to help make it a more successful transition...

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Originally Posted by Brenus

“Great anniversery (though apparently as a lefty I am gutted, must say I haven't noticed) a victory for personal freedoms everywhere”
Yeap. I remember. Freedom was flooding the world. :sweatdrop:
Then the Right Wing Nationalists started to Ethnic cleansing in Europe. Communism became bad and Nazism good….
The pretty villages went in flames in some areas, some minorities forced to change their ancestors names or/and some countries built wall to separate them from down towns, or have their children ban from schools because too dirty.
The Religious movements started to be preached with bombs and the freedom become slavery from women and “unfaithful”. It took some time from the freedom fighters to become unlawful combatants but it happened…
Genocides happened in a wonderful indifference / indulgences when suited and International Laws became no more than a piece of paper.
Cynicism became the main value, except greed.:2thumbsup:
At least, they were able to die of starvation but FREE.

Er, a lot of difference...

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Both Nazi Germany and the USSR were socialist countries. It is the left that is supporting socialism today.

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Originally Posted by Just Vuk Again

Both Nazi Germany and the USSR were socialist countries. It is the left that is supporting socialism today.

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Are you comparing today's liberal left with Hitler/Stalin?

Are you comparing today's liberal left with Hitler/Stalin?

I think it would be more of a shock if he wasn't... vuk i realise its your favourite pet debate but you don't need to bring every single thread off topic with it...

Start a thread where people can rubbish your silly comparisons instead of continually dragging others off topic...

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Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr

Are you comparing today's liberal left with Hitler/Stalin?

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No, not at all. He was comparing the right to Nazis, and I pointed out that his comparison did not work, because the Nazis politics were actually almost identical with today's left, not today's right. He is the one who made the insinuations, not me.

So where he said right wing nationalists started ethnic cleansing after the wall came down, you took this as him calling right wingers nazis ?!

because im sorry to tell you the nazi regime fell some 45 years prior...

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Originally Posted by LittleGrizzly

So where he said right wing nationalists started ethnic cleansing after the wall came down, you took this as him calling right wingers nazis ?!

because im sorry to tell you the nazi regime fell some 45 years prior...

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First of all, I misread his post and I apologize. Second of all, it does not matter when the regime went down, because a Nazi is a Nazi is a Nazi, whether they are in power or not.

Ok, but he didn't mention nazis whatsoever, you seem to be the only person mentioning nazis and assigning them to one paticular brand of politics or another... anyway drifting a little off topic here...

OK, I'll be this thread's loser and say 'Godwin'.

Now can we get back on track, sweethearts? :idea2:

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Originally Posted by Adrian II

Don't I know it? But we have to stop meeting his way, mon vieux, already people are looking at us. ... and the Right is blind. Nice couple, picture them in the dark room on a Friday night.

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If it is a dark room, it doesn't matter that the right is blind but it matters very much that the left is perverted. ~;)

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Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars

If it is a dark room, it doesn't matter that the right is blind but it matters very much that the left is perverted. ~;)

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Only if you're the right. :wink:

For my contribution to the debate, where I went to school the schooling was without a doubt biased towards the left (in the subjects you notice it in, namely the humanities) simply because those teachers tended to be left-wing. The only question was whether you got a teacher who was tolerant of right-wing viewpoints and respected them or if you got a teacher who wasn't. Fortunately, few teachers were in the former category.

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Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr

Only if you're the right. :wink:

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Well, yes and no... :eeeek:

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Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars

If it is a dark room, it doesn't matter that the right is blind but it matters very much that the left is perverted. ~;)

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Blind people are usually very tactile.

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Originally Posted by Just Vuk Again

Both Nazi Germany and the USSR were socialist countries. It is the left that is supporting socialism today.

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Would you care to support that argument or is it simply fact because you stated it as such?

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Originally Posted by CountArach

Would you care to support that argument or is it simply fact because you stated it as such?

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Would you care to disprove it?

Would you care to disprove it?

Well for starters the left doesn't support socialism and the USSR isn't a country, thats the complicated part out the way the rest is obviously wrong too... though deserving of a different topic!

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Originally Posted by LittleGrizzly

Well for starters the left doesn't support socialism

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:inquisitive:

This is new...

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Originally Posted by Wiki

In contemporary political discourse, the term the Left usually means either social liberal or socialist. The term is also used to describe social democracy and most forms of anarchism.

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Probably for another topic but i wouldn't really say we have a major socialist party, that used to be the domain of the labour party, but they shifted, and the general consesus is the centre ground did shift to the right, so that would mean the left is now partly the old centre, which wasn't really socialist... and generally among partys considered left wing they don't seem very socialist to me... but i may just be thinking to much into my own interpretation of the labels...

anyway all very off topic...

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Originally Posted by LittleGrizzly

Some brilliant conspiracy stuff in here, thanks frag needed a laugh.

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No conspiracy, just people unsure of what their opinion should be and playing it safe just to be sure. Despite the wall comming down being one of the most important events in history it does not, and will not, get the coverage it deserves because of the suffocating social control within the leftist church and the terrible fate that is being excommunicated.

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Originally Posted by Default the Magyar

Would you care to disprove it?

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Ahem

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Originally Posted by LittleGrizzly

the left is now partly the old centre, which wasn't really socialist... and generally among partys considered left wing they don't seem very socialist to me... but i may just be thinking to much into my own interpretation of the labels...

anyway all very off topic...

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Yeah that's your interpretation. I, for one, consider myself something of a more Orthodox, old-style Socialist. Then again, as you say this is all off topic.

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Originally Posted by CountArach

Ahem

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I don't care about "the burden of proof", I care about your disproval and his (Vuk's) defence.

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Originally Posted by Default the Magyar

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I don't care about "the burden of proof", I care about your disproval and his (Vuk's) defence.

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Hence the need for Burden of Proof. I can't be asked to affirm a negative position - he must provide the positive position and then I shall attempt to provide the counter-reasoning.

Oh come off it, he said that Nazis and Commies were socialists, that was enough for you to decide that a one liner was needed, so you clearly think he's talking bollox, so have at it.

You can confirm your position which is clearly at odds with his, if not then say so. say "yes I CA agree with Vuk", I will be on hand with tissues.

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Originally Posted by Default the Magyar

Oh come off it, he said that Nazis and Commies were socialists, that was enough for you to decide that a one liner was needed, so you clearly think he's talking bollox, so have at it.

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But what is there to refute? Just a statement without sources - he clearly is not/has never been willing to engage in some sort of intellectual debate on ideology; so what would be the point in me doing so? As soon as I see a single source come from him, I will be open to discussion.

That is why Pim Fortuyn was excommunicated by the leftist church, it was a big NEIN to point out that the blessings of the social democracy were actually introduced by the german occupiers, even to fellow historians. Some things are just best left unspoken.

Economically Nazi Germany had some Socialist influences - government had high control over industry, price and wage controls, and following 1929, much government invesment in public infrastructure...

but Socilaism essentially aims to eliminate inequality, something Nazism cleary was not aiming to do.

The fact that the Nazi's were widely opposed to Marxists in Germany pre-election - maybe the most clear demonstration that they opposed socialism.

Both were authoritarian.

:2thumbsup: