Yet another Sweboz question!

Gooooood day to everybody! I told in my last ''serious'' thread that I was bothering by the blitz I made with Sweboz, capturing Rome (and destroying razing unleashing utter destruction:yes: in every cities captured as south as... (the city south of Rome!) and of corse everything till the Gaul coast of atlantic .and I only played till 230 BC. Now I wanna start a new campain, but Harder, and i wanted to know, as the start of Sweboz is kind of messy, if playing on Hard -Hard, or very hard- Hard would be too unbalanced and become nigh-impossible campign. Or, if Medium battle difficulty was just fine, but i should wait my ennemies to built up (like 200BC) before attempting my armies out of Germania...

Opinion?

Don't need to change difficulty, just give the Romans about 70 years so they can spamstack you.

attack the sauromatae :D. Cav archers are not unbeatable but as sweboz it's sort of difficult ;)

I fouth them in only one battle... and gand, they were scary even on medium! Just to get to the city center, I losted half of my army... AND I DIDN'T REACHED THEM YET!!! Once you come to hand to hand (IF YOU LIVE TILL THERE) it's another story as their horses, appart form FM, have almost no defance and die like flies in hand to hand...

So 70 years? Damn, how I'll wait till there? I've anger problem when it comes to Romans... I can't resist... when I see a lil stack among my border... I can't help myself to shout COME AND TAKE ME!!!then throw my naked dudes and unleashe my fury upon those poor Romans... But I promise, i'll do an effort to wait!!!

Come out onto the steppes and try fighting with the nomads if you want to know what hard is. If you think they're good in a city battle, just wait until you see what they can do to you in the open.

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Originally Posted by Duguntz

I fouth them in only one battle... and gand, they were scary even on medium! Just to get to the city center, I losted half of my army... AND I DIDN'T REACHED THEM YET!!! Once you come to hand to hand (IF YOU LIVE TILL THERE) it's another story as their horses, appart form FM, have almost no defance and die like flies in hand to hand...

So 70 years? Damn, how I'll wait till there? I've anger problem when it comes to Romans... I can't resist... when I see a lil stack among my border... I can't help myself to shout COME AND TAKE ME!!!then throw my naked dudes and unleashe my fury upon those poor Romans... But I promise, i'll do an effort to wait!!!

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Mount an invasion of Britannia while you wait. That should turn out interesting.

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Originally Posted by Frontline1944

Mount an invasion of Britannia while you wait. That should turn out interesting.

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+1

It is always entertaining to invade the British islands as the Swébôz.

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Originally Posted by Frontline1944

Mount an invasion of Britannia while you wait. That should turn out interesting.

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Yeah, I tought about it, and, I seriously will try to do it... the problem it's that it takes the infinite
just to be able to built boat, having the necessary structure takes a big while. While not so expensive, it's rather far in the game... also, do you have a trick forthe following problem : as sweboz have a real crappy economy, it's kinda hard to maintain decent army. While one front is easily defendable, and even if it's only on ''defending my territories against foes'', when it comes to multiple front at the same time, it become somewhat a real thread for the campain itself, as sweboz can't affordstacks as numerous as, let's say, Romans... and usualy, i'm at war with Romans and Aedui, and nothin will make Arverni to come on my side, Nice situation in the west hmmm? but during that ''triple war'' on the west, it's not long till Getai looks the nice northen forests...
That is the reason why I blitzed last campain, because I couldn't afford at all war of atririon against so many at the same time, so i had to destroy them good and fast in order to survive... any suggestion to make this go better? Or it's really the AI wich automaticly detect a biological form that control a faction and throw everything it got on it?

I started a sweboz campaign vh/vh and got surrounded by sauromatae from th east (who are unstoppable unless u have horse archers which u dont cas ur sweboz)

rome came from the south and then lustaonna, sweboz r so weak vs every faction that apposes them in v/h v/h campaign.

I had to send a ship with an elite army of naked spear men, gaut spearmen, baltic archers and some elite generals all the way to the south of spain and sack all the cities but with in 4 turns i had only pillaged 2 major cities and the lustaonna were on my back, i now hold 1 settlement in germany and 2 settlements in spain.

My faction leader has just been slain and i have a general leading my melted forces which now only consist of light iberian spearmen and mercenarys, this is the hardest campaign iv had since playing EB. i wanted a challenge and damn it sure is.

Its just a shame carthage are sat accross the sea with huge forces and could aid my needs if only they could get on their ships and come accross. :no:

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Originally Posted by lionhard

I started a sweboz campaign vh/vh and got surrounded by sauromatae from th east (who are unstoppable unless u have horse archers which u dont cas ur sweboz)

rome came from the south and then lustaonna, sweboz r so weak vs every faction that apposes them in v/h v/h campaign.

I had to send a ship with an elite army of naked spear men, gaut spearmen, baltic archers and some elite generals all the way to the south of spain and sack all the cities but with in 4 turns i had only pillaged 2 major cities and the lustaonna were on my back, i now hold 1 settlement in germany and 2 settlements in spain.

My faction leader has just been slain and i have a general leading my melted forces which now only consist of light iberian spearmen and mercenarys, this is the hardest campaign iv had since playing EB. i wanted a challenge and damn it sure is.

Its just a shame carthage are sat accross the sea with huge forces and could aid my needs if only they could get on their ships and come accross. :no:

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oh yeah, that's what I'm talkin about... I was playing vh - vh also, but I switched to h - m... big differance, but somewhat, with units balance, your naked dudes really do wonders... too much! (like my blitz of Italia proove) and believe me, when nothing else is to fight, It's so boring, i just stopped the campain, although I only had to conquer Gawjam-Basternoz, and i already had an army 1 turn from it... but he, I don't play when i'm bored of it, no matter close am i from victory! I prefer to read some interesting philosophy books instead!!!

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Originally Posted by Frontline1944

Mount an invasion of Britannia while you wait. That should turn out interesting.

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I just did just that, recreating Knud den Store's Viking North Sea empire. It is definately worth it. Problem is that it constitutes a Blitz and in order to not overrun everyone I have to keep on the defensive against the Romans for 25- 30 more years before actually counterattacking them (I am getting spammed with stacks of Leets) and moving to the next phase of expansion, once every generation must be migration enough ;-)

I am considering copying the Cimbri raid sending a stack to fight till it dies, but I am too much of a strategist, I like to conserve my soldiers, care for them, loose as few as possible. That way i know they will sacrifice all for me as they should, and get loads of chevrons ;-)

But, there are many ways to have fun and wreak havoc while keeping defensive against Rome, raiding most of all. I detest Rome and Carthage, arrogant twats they have been in all diplomatic dealings.

Oh funny thing is, Macedonia owns all Asia minor but has been kicked from Hellas by Epeiros. KH owns Hellas (except the north that Epeiros has taken from Macedonia, and Emporion! Emporion is (as historically) a KH province/colony. Never saw that before, is it coded to join KH if it rebels? like Massilia was in some incarnation of RTW?

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Originally Posted by Duguntz

Yeah, I tought about it, and, I seriously will try to do it... the problem it's that it takes the infinite
just to be able to built boat, having the necessary structure takes a big while. While not so expensive, it's rather far in the game... also, do you have a trick forthe following problem : as sweboz have a real crappy economy, it's kinda hard to maintain decent army. While one front is easily defendable, and even if it's only on ''defending my territories against foes'', when it comes to multiple front at the same time, it become somewhat a real thread for the campain itself, as sweboz can't affordstacks as numerous as, let's say, Romans... and usualy, i'm at war with Romans and Aedui, and nothin will make Arverni to come on my side, Nice situation in the west hmmm? but during that ''triple war'' on the west, it's not long till Getai looks the nice northen forests...
That is the reason why I blitzed last campain, because I couldn't afford at all war of atririon against so many at the same time, so i had to destroy them good and fast in order to survive... any suggestion to make this go better? Or it's really the AI wich automaticly detect a biological form that control a faction and throw everything it got on it?

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As you can see above I did it, on VH/M as recommended by the designers.

1. Took the "Netherlands" and Rugoz with start army. Disbanded most of army, only keps FMs that spawned like crazy 10 years into game, make all new provs Type IV at first, to keep your army of FMs and two archers with you. Send diplomats to get peace and trade to every nation on the map- you need trade. Sell you map and whatever else will gain you Mnai. Gain peace and alliances with enemies.
2. 15-20 years into game, use this army to take Denmark the eastern prov that gives you Baltic Archers and Sweden. Gawjam Scandia (or whatever the Swedish settlement is named) can build harbour for sucky boats at this point.
3. Build infrastructure, 30-35 years into game sneak one sucky boat with an army to Scotland and take it.
4. It is now but a question of time before Casse attacks you, when they do, kill them with no mercy. Till they do, consolidate.

The trick here is that you have a buffer of tough Eleutheroi almost all around you. Only likely contact for the first two generations are Gauls, who are busy fighting each other anyway and rarely gives me attention because of it, and Casse, where you have only one front.

Now in my game the Romans owns the Alps and province NNW of them far into S germany, and are spamming me, but let them. I can take those settlements at my leisure, so I keep to raidintg until the next generation of ambitious young warriors grow up...

You could gift the romans lots of cash, and process_cq their cities every turn. That should make them really beefed up in no time.

Im always scared I will encounter countless factory fullstacks of elites... Something from the past, so I usually beat the living $@%*~& out of a faction when they first betray/attack me...

~Fluvius

I always play very hard campaign/hard battle on EB and I like it, with Sweboz the main thing for me is to max out the chevrons of my troops with a pillar of Tyr etc. and play careful you can win. I don't know how you play but I find that if I take skandza, rugii, and the two baltic states east of swebotraust they create a pretty strong maritime economy, I put my best governors on Scandza, Swebotraust and Rugoland and they combine for a pretty good income, two strong armies is very possible if you have good maritime trade and don't buy too many expensive troops (naked dudes i.e.) the Chatti clubman is your best friend here, a T3 government plus game field plus pillar of Tyr and they come out at level 4, if you want to blitz in two directions at the same time put the Chatti clubs high on your list.

Oh and I concur as to fighting the Sauromatii, winnable but very challenging on hard battle difficulty, those guys are brutal to the Sweboz, forest ambushes are useful when possible.

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Originally Posted by Duguntz

I fouth them in only one battle... and gand, they were scary even on medium! Just to get to the city center, I losted half of my army... AND I DIDN'T REACHED THEM YET!!! Once you come to hand to hand (IF YOU LIVE TILL THERE) it's another story as their horses, appart form FM, have almost no defance and die like flies in hand to hand...

So 70 years? Damn, how I'll wait till there? I've anger problem when it comes to Romans... I can't resist... when I see a lil stack among my border... I can't help myself to shout COME AND TAKE ME!!!then throw my naked dudes and unleashe my fury upon those poor Romans... But I promise, i'll do an effort to wait!!!

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You spoke as a true Romaioktonos, Duguntz :yes:

Maion

I would also suggest you try to attack the Sauromatae - like said beware! These horsemen aet Germans for breakfest ...

If you choose this path then heres some advice: bring as many man you can - expect few to return. NEVER fight them in the Open - never attack them if they have cavalry in the army. If you must fight in the open then on defensive and get to the highest hill in sight nad pray to the gods that you have enough arrows for your archer and enough men to withstand the onslaught.

If you fight in towns send some arrow-fodder ahead - nomadic towns are built around hills - this gives extra range for there archers:skull:.

The best would be if you could get some slingers to kill the heavy cavalry. A good move would be to take the Krim (with a type 4 goverment you can get hellenic slingers and Bosphorian heavy archers there - a must have if you intend to fight the Nomads).

Invading Britain has also been mentioned - I would try that with the Sweboz aswell. Good luck to it.

About wanting to kill romans - remember patience is the mark of a great Warlord. If you have the steppes you will be able to train Sarmatian Nobel Horse archers - us them aswell... few things Kill romans better then them:laugh4: (insert evil laugh).

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Originally Posted by HunGeneral

I would also suggest you try to attack the Sauromatae - like said beware! These horsemen aet Germans for breakfest ...

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Actually, Sauromatae vs. Swêboz is an encounter of the extremes: at range, the Swêboz don't stand a chance; in melee, the same is true for the Sauromatae.

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Invading Britain has also been mentioned - I would try that with the Sweboz aswell. Good luck to it.

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Britain+Ireland give some nice recruitment possibilities, namely Balroae (best light skirmishers in the game), Celto-Germanic Spearmen, Teceitos and Siluri Warband. More important still is the trade income you get from these provinces. Also, by the time you've conquered Britain, the Casse will probably have built some "universities" there...

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About wanting to kill romans - remember patience is the mark of a great Warlord. If you have the steppes you will be able to train Sarmatian Nobel Horse archers - us them aswell... few things Kill romans better then them:laugh4: (insert evil laugh).

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The Steppe and Bosphoran regions are indeed nice for Swêboz recruitment wise.
Btw. Baltic Frontiersmen are the best archers available to the Swêboz near their homelands. Very effective against other "barbarians" and a decent defense against nomadic HAs.

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Originally Posted by Duguntz

I can't help myself to shout COME AND TAKE ME!!!then throw my naked dudes and unleashe my fury upon those poor Romans... But I promise, i'll do an effort to wait!!!

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Ah... I think you mean come and get me. Come and take me has rather a different connotation ;-) And then you had to go and mention unleashing naked fury... lol

I might as well ask it here, I'm wondering how the Germanics hold their shields, with the handle being horizontal(Like Romans) or vertical(Like Vikings)?

well my advice is try campaing on very hard and battle on hard, then you will see some diference, i never try a lower the battle dificuly above hard, becouse i find on hard very interesting chalenge, not too easy and not to dificult if you came prepared, sometimes battles hang in a ballence, even if at start i find myself confident. you ill find also assaulting cities much harder.

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Originally Posted by Geticus

I always play very hard campaign/hard battle on EB and I like it, with Sweboz the main thing for me is to max out the chevrons of my troops with a pillar of Tyr etc. and play careful you can win. I don't know how you play but I find that if I take skandza, rugii, and the two baltic states east of swebotraust they create a pretty strong maritime economy, I put my best governors on Scandza, Swebotraust and Rugoland and they combine for a pretty good income, two strong armies is very possible if you have good maritime trade and don't buy too many expensive troops (naked dudes i.e.) the Chatti clubman is your best friend here, a T3 government plus game field plus pillar of Tyr and they come out at level 4, if you want to blitz in two directions at the same time put the Chatti clubs high on your list.

Oh and I concur as to fighting the Sauromatii, winnable but very challenging on hard battle difficulty, those guys are brutal to the Sweboz, forest ambushes are useful when possible.

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Do you not mean Slagonez, the normal German Clubmen? They are better than the Chatti ones. I find a mixed group of Medininkas, Slagonez, Wargosez, Heruskez (swordsmen), some FMs, a few Leuce Eupos/German Cav and Ger/naked Celtic spearmen filling the blanks to be very effective in my Sweboz campaign. Against any enemy. Missiles kills other barbarians and the infantry beats the crap out of civilised factions and/or scares the living feces out of them. Then the cavalry chase them down when they flee.

Large pillar of Thiwoz (Tyr) is soooo useful.

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Originally Posted by miotas

Ah... I think you mean come and get me. Come and take me has rather a different connotation ;-) And then you had to go and mention unleashing naked fury... lol

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Ah hahahahaha... and will the Hellenes not love that?

Joke intended, no factionwar Mak-lovers ;-)

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Originally Posted by Macilrille

Do you not mean Slagonez, the normal German Clubmen? They are better than the Chatti ones.

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Indeed; the Chatti Clubmen are better suited for garrison duty though as they are ridiculously cheap and have a better javelin range.

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Large pillar of Thiwoz (Tyr) is soooo useful.

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Really? I think I have to try it. Normally I build temples of Odin everywhere, because I hate HATE HATE corruption :furious3: [insert appropriate fourletter words here]. It costs you half the income of a decent sized empire, and the Swêboz are poor already.

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Originally Posted by athanaric

Really? I think I have to try it. Normally I build temples of Odin everywhere, because I hate HATE HATE corruption :furious3: [insert appropriate fourletter words here]. It costs you half the income of a decent sized empire, and the Swêboz are poor already.

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My way is; Odin for distant settlements, Tyr for recruitment centres, Nerthuz for Trade centres close in (distant gets Odin to counter corruption, in my case Wales, Caledonia and Ireland), and if you need a pop boost, try Frej.


BTW, in this Sweboz Campaign that I put my Roman one on hold to play (to get in the mood for the role playing campaign I run http://turbator.blogspot.com/), the KH just gave me 4873 mnai, then next turn offered me to loan the same and pay 4200 back, I refused, next turn they loaned me the same with only 3650 in return. They then a few turns later offered 4873 with 4100 x 7 paid back. LOL @ Greeks, I refused, but what is happening? Anyone tried anything remotedly similar? I never have.

uuught Chatti Clubman are more crappy than Slagonaz, alright. but Imo they are more suited for a fight against enemies with many armored units and few archers(like the romans^^) I realy like them and I sometimes have to transfer population from Denmark to the Chatti lands to maintain my army :D. they are definately crap and redundant against Nomads and Getai tho.

Edit: oh yes The KH gave me the exact same sum right after I bordered their territory but they did not do anything else than that. they are among the strongest factions in that game and are allied with half of the world. sadly I'm not member of this anti Seleukid alliance and had to take sides with the grey death. Still the KH remained friendly towards me, maybe they feel Comeradeship for a Infantry FM faction :D
ps: I met them in sythia :D and southern france at the same time^^

The Chatti Youth Club (as I like to call them) are actually a variant of the more common Jugunthiz - they pretty much just have clubs instead of spears. In principle they should be used in the same fashion, ie. as an expendable "first wave" to tire out the enemy and absorb the ubiquitous precursor javelins...

Nice child-rearing principles those ancient Germanics had.

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Originally Posted by Maion Maroneios

You spoke as a true Romaioktonos, Duguntz :yes:

Maion

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It's from my heart that I said that, while eating theirs'!!! (insert evil laugh here)

proud member of Romaioktonos social group!!!

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Originally Posted by Macilrille

BTW, in this Sweboz Campaign that I put my Roman one on hold to play (to get in the mood for the role playing campaign I run http://turbator.blogspot.com/), the KH just gave me 4873 mnai, then next turn offered me to loan the same and pay 4200 back, I refused, next turn they loaned me the same with only 3650 in return. They then a few turns later offered 4873 with 4100 x 7 paid back. LOL @ Greeks, I refused, but what is happening? Anyone tried anything remotedly similar? I never have.

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Yes, indeed, I remember posting a thread about this a few months ago. I decided not to exploit it (you can get a massive sum of money by accepting the deal, canceling the tribute immediately afterward, and repeating the next turn).

The relevant thread.

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Originally Posted by Frontline1944

Yes, indeed, I remember posting a thread about this a few months ago. I decided not to exploit it (you can get a massive sum of money by accepting the deal, canceling the tribute immediately afterward, and repeating the next turn).

The relevant thread.

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Ah yes, that was what you meant. However, exploiting it never occured to me :-s

Perhaps I am stupid, perhaps I roleplay, who knows ;-)

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Originally Posted by Duguntz

... Now I wanna start a new campain, ...
Opinion?

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I recall a really satisfying Sweboz campaign with these limits:

VH/M. General camera. Force mix limits, garrison limits, command span limits, campaign objective limits, combat style.

Force mx limits:

No more than 4 of any one unit type per stack.This forces me to have diverse unit mixes, not clone regiments. If I end up with 5 units of one tyupe in a battle (due to retreats or reiniforcements) the syrplus have to be on AI or they have to stay out of the battle (retreat or stay in the townsquare or whatever)

No more than 4 foot archers or slingers per stack total: THIS IS SWEBOZ.

Garrison limits:

Any number of FM's per city, 0 non-FM, +1 if you have a little granary, +4 if you have a big granary.

Mercenaries may not be used for garrisons for type 1 or 2 settlements.

Command span limits: Units only move with a FM. Up to 8 non-FM units with a FM, up to 12 with the FH, up to 16 with the FL. With force mix limits this gives you raggedy looking stacks: up to 4 FM's, up to 16 non FM's no more than four of each.

Campaign objective limits (during the time of freedom or whatever that first Sweboz era is):

Name an objective city. It must be adjacent to a friendly province or have a coast facing. Raise your army, march to the city, take it, march the army home and disband it. FL to the capital if not on campaign.

If an enemy stack is in a friendly province you may keep an army in being but once they leave you must disband all non-mercs (apart from the allowed garrison).

Mercenaries do not have to be disbanded (but can't be a garrison: stick em in a fort to keep them out of mischief).

Combat style:

Seiges must be resolved by assault as quickly as possible. No hanging around like a clever-clever Greek waiting for someone to starve, its up to the walls like an Uruk-hai.

Seek ambushes everywhere possible, both on the map and in the battle.

Include one headlong charge in every battle, even if this leads to defeat: THIS IS SWEBOZ!.

For allied armies (regional units under client rulers) use appropriate tactics: sword and cav for Celts, HA swirls if you spread east to the plains, clever-clever Greek tactics if you get Massilia etc.

Basically my idea is to have a small tribal force of elites (FM's and mercs) with a large popular levy that only agrees to fight for a short period against a defined threat or objective. Once the time of the spear (or whatever it is) starts I allow standing armies up to the FM's command span.

I want the ebb and flow of raising the royal army each spring, marching out to war, assaulting like hell and trudging home again (leaving 2 or 3 FMs to pacify their new fiefs). To much to remember? Well I like the "taste" of this system, it makes me appreciate the logistics of war even for the barbarous.

That idea mentioned above of building a stack and sending it to pillage until it runs itself into the ground is a pearler.

that is just great! thanks! In fact, i startsd a campain about a week ago using the same kind of rule! 1 fm per army, lots of levy that I disband in their homeland right away after the conquest of the ''objective'' while the medium troops (duguntiz and slagonez) stay a while for garrison. the damn problem is the super FM spanning durring the 10 first years! they're all with good trait, but too much! and as sweboz, i don't wanna let them getting old in a city, they must proove their valor in combat to the Gods!

Now, i'm into the 240's and still not out of germania (althouth I've all of it since loooong!) but hey! I'm proud! usualy by then, i've also all gauls! But I'm waiting home... for those stinky Romans to knock on my door! as for the others rules, I'll as well use them in my current game, as I'm not too far in the game and I've only my homeland conquered... thanks cyclop!

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Originally Posted by Duguntz

... lots of levy that I disband in their homeland right away after the conquest of the ''objective'' while the medium troops (duguntiz and slagonez) stay a while for garrison...

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Yes I like the idea that the young fellows go home and back to their fields, whereas a more "professional" unit might hang around and accumulate experience. The idea of a gold chevron levy unit is uncomfortable in some ways, although really just a tweak in a pretty satisfactory system.

Gilding the lily, I wonder if it is possible to mod xp caps for unts based on whether they are levy, regular and elite? Say 3, 6 and 9 chevrons respectively.

That's true! it'd be a good idea, and would give kinda accurate account on Battle prowess of every types of warrior (levy, cor troops and elites) But it must be a lot of modification in the files... I mean, I just don't know how it'd be done as I've 0 exp. in Modding any file of any kind!!! BUT it still would be a nice idea. Also, as a house rule, I place type 1 gov, werever is possible, and everywhere else, as allies, place type 4, train a client ruler and then give him complete control of the city (allow complete local gestion) so they're still ''free'' but i, as their lord, may call the troops they train as I want, in time of need. only problem witrh that is that damn, the AI is so stupid in it's construction... well... it's AI!

Though it occurs to me that whenever the tribal levy gets called up, it's most of the time going to be more or less the same guys from each region right ? Pretty sure the manpower reserves the Germanic tribal militias tapped weren't exactly deep...

Yeah, that't also true, but as there's time between Raids, and even more time laps between invasion, the population increase, thus allowing for a rotation of men... (anyway, in germanic society, every men of age were requiered to fight wether ordered by their jarl! so even if it were the same men every year (as i have a ''season for raiding'') well, it's their lots in life and those who comeback alive bring to their family glory and plunder!

Dugunz, I am sorry to disagree, but that view is somewhat antequated and romantic. I have no time to elaborate, but suffice it to say that at the start of the EB Timeframe a warrior aristocracy was already emerging.

Off to Iceland tomorrow :-D

Also it can be somewhat difficult to get armed and pugnacious peasant-soldiers to go on a campaign or even raid if they don't like the idea - there being an obvious hurdle in *forcing* them. OTOH, from what I know of it your average tribesman wasn't too opposed to the idea... "also soldiers want loot and phat lewts", as it were. Nevermind now any personal or communal grudges and the rest of the junk tribal warriors were motivated by.

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Originally Posted by Watchman

Though it occurs to me that whenever the tribal levy gets called up, it's most of the time going to be more or less the same guys from each region right ? Pretty sure the manpower reserves the Germanic tribal militias tapped weren't exactly deep...

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Yeah but I imagine they grow up from skirmishers into the levy spearmen and then regular spears (once they get some maturity the boys realise they need to hold onto their spears instead of throwing them away all the time). There's a generational progression, a bit like Hastati/Principes/Triarii.

If we wanted to go nuts:dizzy2:, we could build an engine that provided a range of manpower pools, recruitment and training regimes and equipment. You could have core pools for each regime. Barbaroi could have nobles, free and bondsmen. City states could have Aristocracy/Nobiles, citizens, metics and rabble. Hellenic monarchies would have companion/nobles, yeoman and rabble.

There could be seperate pools for mercenaries and allies with far more limited unit types.

You choose your training/equipment regime to match your manpower: if you train nobles as cav they bring their own horses and fight well, but rabble on horseback are expensive and woeful. Noble/companion inf would be elite but not numerous, so line inf from the yeomanry or citizenry would be more cost effective and give bulk.

Regime type would tweak the pools size: Early Roman republic would give more citizens, Late Republic would have more rabble (but that regime could make decent Marian legionaires out of rabble, for a price).

Anyway that would require a complete rebuild, and I feel the recruitment limits in EB2 will go some way to effeftively rendering this complex issue.

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Originally Posted by Macilrille

Dugunz, I am sorry to disagree, but that view is somewhat antequated and romantic. I have no time to elaborate, but suffice it to say that at the start of the EB Timeframe a warrior aristocracy was already emerging.

Off to Iceland tomorrow :-D

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Hmmm, you missed my point here! Here, yeah, it's true that every man of age were more or less ALSO the warriors, of their village! even with an warrior class emerging. then, for the rest, I wasn't talking about historical fact, but as my way of roleplaying!

cheers all!!!

I'd personally give Juguntiz a special standing as, especially the chatti ones, are eager to kill thier first enemy and get their Real spear and thus becoming "proven ones" so Imo most realisitc would be to not disband them until they get a chevron from fighting rather than temples and game fields. after that you can train them again as Dugunthiz. Levy spears and Skutjanz are levied troops or troops that just fight to protect house and wife.they have a regular job in the community and are just marginally fond of fighting(except maybe a little raid to gain some gold and glory once in a while ;) )

if you want a 3 level unit you could add the swordsmen as they not only killed a man in battle but have had the opportunity to kill a man armed with a sword(which are far more plentiful gaul than in the village next door). so you could replace Dugunthiz who earned a chevron in combat with gauls(no spearmen do not count) or romans with Herunautoz.

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Originally Posted by Ca Putt

I'd personally give Juguntiz a special standing...

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Thats a difficult thing to represent, age cohorts (as opposed to demographic cohorts) progressing their status in society in wealth and obligations.

There's a book I've just seen on "Sex and War" which links demograhy to violence (organsied and disorganised): if you have a bunch of boys coming through you're more likely to have a war (bad news for Iran, and lots of Africa).

I guess there's a model for manpower pools in Victoria, but how complex would this have to be to include maturing cohorts, age-weighted for aggression?

well just because the boys are not in your Army it doesn't mean they don't exist and I'm pretty sure the Germanic society has much less problems with violent youngsters than a Hellenic or roman society which featured gangs of joyriding sons of senators who burn down Barns :D

furthermore The Jugunthiz were not only defined by age. It was possible that some guys just continued to fight among the Jugunthiz with well above 20 years. (for Chatti) This could be either "achieved" by failing to kill a man in combat or by just being utterly fond of fighting like a hairy barbarian :D.
Afterall I gave a practical solution for the issue. the remaining Upkeep cost are not even to unrealistic as Germanic warriors are not exactly as productive as Kleucheroi ^^ at least Tacitus says so

oh but I have to agree with you on the crime issue. [I was about to turn this into a discussion about abortion but I decided It's best to give that a miss^^]

Seems this has grown into quite a thread. Lots of Philogermanoi here, it seems. No problems there, I am part-Germanos myself too. So things are good. I guess :tongue:

Maion

Personally, I just assume the "generation cycle" in any given unit happens behind the scenes and is in part accounted for in the upkeep costs.

It would also seem to me like rather strange to up and disband "militia" units when they're not in use. Such troops, after all, more or less represent the forces the region (ie. settlement in game terms) can mobilise on reasonable notice if needed, say to deal with a random enemy attack (eg. some random Eleutheroi stack deciding to lay siege to the settlement). Such tribal warbands don't take the better part of a year to call up (as happens if you "re-recruit" them for every campaign), obviously, and doubly so if it's for "home defense".
Improved economic infrastructure allowing the maintenance of an increasing number of such "part-time" tribal warriors can then be thought of as an abstract representation of the increased prosperity of the region enabling more and more men to own the necessary equipement and if need be leave their "day jobs" for a while to fight, growing population just plain enabling the mobilisation of larger numbers, and the spreading influence and growing wealth of the rulers enabling them to better and more efficiently tap the available manpower pool...

Of course, if you want to RP it you should obviously try to return the warriors to their home regions once the campaign is over; with the more "generic" units this is probably best done by keeping track of the general size of a given settlement's contribution and duly returning a like number of units (or thereabouts, depending on what casualty rates were like...) there - it being after all a bit difficult to keep track of where a given unit of Skutjantz or generic Dugunthisomethings originated from...
Easier with the "tribe-specific" ones like Chatti and Chauci troops, obviously.

Back from Iceland, it was GREAT!!!

http://vefmidlar.visir.is/?channelID...2-ddf3d590e625