French and Moland vs. Republic of Congo

:laugh4:

This is just great entertainment.
I mean, Congo must have brighter people than those who are participating in this trial. It just boggles my mind that this is supposed to be an actual military tribunal.

A brief intro:
Two Norwegians on a field trip to the republic of Congo was allegedly attacked by guerrillas which killed their driver. They escaped and were arrested for the murder of the driver.
The Congolese government has appointed a military tribunal because these two young men, Joshua French and Tjostolv Moland, had military backgrounds. (Yeah, like every other young Norwegian).
The case against them is as thin as the razor blade I used to shave my face this morning.
The driver was killed by shots to the head with three 7.62mm rounds. The murder weapon presented as evidence in the case is a 12 g. shotgun which can only be loaded one shell at the time. Witnesses told the court they heard 3 rapid shots.
These men's rights have been violated numerous times during their arrest and during this case. The indictments against them have snowballed and the State attorney now demands 500 billion US dollars from the State and King of Norway for sending these two spies to Congo.

:wall:

As there are no English newspapers covering this:
articles with bad Google translations of today's court - 3000 billion lawsuit and Demands 1.3 times the Norwegian oil fund

Unfortunately, the Congolese aren't so stupid. I doubt it will be 1.3x your annual oil revenues, or anywhere near 500 billion for that matter, but I'm certain Norwegian diplomats are trying to figure out how high the real price tag is as we speak.

Let them rot in hell.

It's hired killers like these who helps keep Congo the hell-hole it is. This should be a warning to every other would-be merc; don't carry a gun in a dictatorship. It ain't smart.

And do not, under any circumstance, use your military ID-card as identification while carrying a gun in a warzone.

EDIT: Oh, and toss a bag of oil-money at the widow. I don't care who shot her husband, she's still got 6 kids to feed. Take it from the aid-budget if you want.

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

Unfortunately, the Congolese aren't so stupid. I doubt it will be 1.3x your annual oil revenues, or anywhere near 500 billion for that matter, but I'm certain Norwegian diplomats are trying to figure out how high the real price tag is as we speak.

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A joke military tribunal held in Congo can't demand a single dime from Norway. They would have to take this to Haag. And I am sure their case will hold water in Haag :no:

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It's hired killers like these who helps keep Congo the hell-hole it is. This should be a warning to every other would-be merc; don't carry a gun in a dictatorship. It ain't smart.

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These are your countrymen and where in that entire article does it call them "hired killers". The reason the Congo is the hell hole it is because of early colonial withdrawal, corruption, and "rebels" who only kill more innocents. Heck, if i went to the bloody congo i would carry a weapon to protect myself as well.

Absolutely idiotic, as if that 500 billion would actually go to the widow, psh.

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Originally Posted by Sigurd

A joke military tribunal held in Congo can't demand a single dime from Norway. They would have to take this to Haag. And I am sure their case will hold water in Haag :no:

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So your government is prepared to live with the political fallout from watching these two executed on video feed? If so, bully on you, but I thought only Israel and some American administrations had the resolve in the West where you could expect to see the government not blink. (Correction: Of late, based on their actions in Somalia, I'd have to include France on this list).

Intruiging case. Just who are these two guys and what were they up to in the first place?

False names, weapons, a private security firm. Mercenaries, perchance?

Two tourists - fine, you either get them back or pay to get them back. These guys, I'm not so sure Norway should go the extra mile. Africa is too full with mercenaries as is.

Also, what of 'risk'? The profits of the security firm are privatised. Maybe these two upstarts should've thought about ensuring proper 'get out of jail' money beforehand, or invest in beneficial local relations. Instead of relying on 'private profits, socialized risk'.

http://www.privatemilitaryherald.com...gin-on-friday/

Oh my. Looks like our two Viking heroes rather enjoy the spilled blood of darkies.

Uhm, picture rated age 18 and over I guess:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

http://static.vg.no/uploaded/image/b...22936578_5.jpg

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Originally Posted by Centurion1

These are your countrymen and where in that entire article does it call them "hired killers".

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I've been reading about this since they were arrested in the early summer, ya know... And Josef Fritzl can be as austrian as he wants to, if I was austrian, I'd still want him to rot in hell.

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

So your government is prepared to live with the political fallout from watching these two executed on video feed?

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They won't get executed, Congo doesn't practice the death penalty.

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

Intruiging case. Just who are these two guys and what were they up to in the first place?

False names, weapons, a private security firm. Mercenaries, perchance?

Two tourists - fine, you either get them back or pay to get them back. These guys, I'm not so sure Norway should go the extra mile. Africa is too full with mercenaries as is.

Also, what of 'risk'? The profits of the security firm are privatised. Maybe these two upstarts should've thought about ensuring proper 'get out of jail' money beforehand, or invest in beneficial local relations. Instead of relying on 'private profits, socialized risk'.

http://www.privatemilitaryherald.com...gin-on-friday/

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:2thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

So your government is prepared to live with the political fallout from watching these two executed on video feed? If so, bully on you, but I thought only Israel and some American administrations had the resolve in the West where you could expect to see the government not blink. (Correction: Of late, based on their actions in Somalia, I'd have to include France on this list).

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If they are guilty of murder, then they should take the punishment. They were caught on the run after a man was shot to death. They claim they were hunted by guerrillas and escaped an ambush. During their training with the Telemark battalion, they claim using jokes will help them deal with traumatic incidents. They picture where Moland wipe blood from the seat grinning, is said to be a reaction to the ambush.
It is the allegations that the terror-nation Norway sent two spies into Congo to stir up the population I find surreal. I have been following this case and the "evidence" the prosecution presents is at best ridiculous.
I mean, A picture of Moland in a security uniform from a well known mall-security agency is supposed to be evidence that Moland is a sergeant in the Norwegian army. Also, a picture of Moland in the royal guard (from his compulsory service) incriminates the King. That they had military ID's isnt saying much. I still have my military ID from the days I was in the Navy. I guess I need to remember to take it out of my wallet if I ever go to Africa.
There was also a picture of a guy wearing a SAS berret pointing at a map of Africa on one of their cellphones. This guy is now identified as a news photographer and sent it to some of his Norwegian friends in Africa (not Moland or French) with the under text: I know where you are.
The congolese prosecutor claims that the man on that picture is their Secret boss.

I can't wait until morning when the trial continues. I am :laugh4: and :no: at the same time.
The defense counselor will take this to the supreme court if they are found guilty. The Forreign affairs department have people down there, but are not involved in the case.

If the congolese are serious about expanding this case to include the Norwegian State or The Royals, they better call in some representatives. Moland and French - in this case are just small pieces in a larger picture.

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Originally Posted by Sigurd

It is the allegations that the terror-nation Norway sent two spies into Congo to stir up the population I find surreal. I have been following this case and the "evidence" the prosecution presents is at best ridiculous.

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Of course that charge is ridiculous. But the problem is; Congo doesn't have a law against mercs, which they should have. So I'm perfectly happy to have them branded as spies, on the condition that they were in fact mercenaries.

But anyway Sigurd, you still have your military ID, so do I. I keep it in my wallet, under my drivers license. Do you wear yours around your neck like Moland did? Also, when you're in the security/hitman business, it should be pretty much common sense to ditch things like that, unless, of course, you wear it in order to use it for your benefit.... In which case they should be slapped repeatedly.



As a side note, it has baffled me that in a country with conscription, so few journalists seem to grasp the concept of what vernepliktsboka(military ID) actually is... They've been treating it like something only a certain few is given, something you hand in after your service has ended, etc etc....

well actually, it might be something you hand in after your service has ended, I wouldn't know, there's still a long time until I'm 45 and my service has ended.... Oh, sweet sweet dimmedag...

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They won't get executed, Congo doesn't practice the death penalty.

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:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

I am sorry do you really believe this.

Moland was a second lieutenant in His Majesty the King's Guard, as far as I know he didn't serve his compulsory service in the Guard, so the ID is that of an officer (the pink one stating rank and such) not the blue one us privates had. Which was "destroyed" when we were discharged by punching a few holes in it.

Are they guilty, I have no idea. The monetary claim against the Norwegian state however is just ridiculous. (Especially give that the statistical value of a human life (in America) is in the range between 1 and 8 mill USD), and that there is no ties to official Norwegian involvement in them being in Kongo in the first place. The court proceedings is a farce, hopefully the appeal court belongs to this planet and not outer space, so that they can get a fair trial.

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Originally Posted by Centurion1

:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

I am sorry do you really believe this.

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Yes, and that might be because it's.... True?

Congo gives people the death penalty, yes. But they haven't executed someone for a long time. The procedure is that the prisoner sends a letter to the president asking pardon, which the president doesn't reply to. As long as he doesn't reply, the execution cannot be carried out, thus turning the sentence into de facto life in prison.

Of course, you could argue that spending time in a congo prison equals a death penalty....

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Originally Posted by Dîn-Heru

Moland was a second lieutenant in His Majesty's Guard, as far as I know he didn't serve his compulsory service in the Guard, so the ID is that of an officer (the pink one stating rank and such) not the blue one us privates had. Which was "destroyed" when we were discharged by punching a few holes in it.

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Ah. Well, given the army way of handing things in after you've quit, I can't imagine it would've been hard to sneak it out as a souvenir.

There's a reason I have a complete uniform(perm), 2 "ullfrotte's", my boots, 5 AG-3 magazines(the backup clean set I had so I never had to clean the set I used...) and more socks than I can count.

Everything supposed to be returned.
None of it paid for.
The document for turning in stuff has it listed as turned in, all signed and good.
Everything is in my closet as we speak.

Hehe, the ironic part is that if they get out of the hellhole that is Congo they risk facing charges for not having turned in their ID's apparently.. (but still better than a life sentence in a Congolese prison..)

As for sneaking the ID out for us regulars, perhaps not as easy, as they collected all of them and went berserk with the hole-punch machine before they handed them back to us as souvenirs... (officers don't face such scrutiny it would seem..)

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Originally Posted by Dîn-Heru

Hehe, the ironic part is that if they get out of the hellhole that is Congo they risk facing charges for not having turned in their ID's apparently..

As for sneaking the ID out for us regulars, perhaps not as easy, as they collected all of them and went berserk with the hole-punch machine before they handed them back to us as souvenirs... (officers don't face such scrutiny it would seem..)

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Thats right... It is a hard earned card. :beam:

Well I don't have the new fancy pansy ID card. In my time we had the red book and the "King's card".
The last fits nicely in my wallet and reminds me of the good old days.

Ah well... the court is finally in session running late, again, which seems like the norm in Congo. (has it ever started on time - 0900?) It was declared in session 12 minutes past 11.

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Originally Posted by Sigurd

I have been following this case and the "evidence" the prosecution presents is at best ridiculous.

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The article quoted above effectively states that they are mercenaries:

Evidence seized recently at the apartment the two men shared in Uganda could play a large role in the eventual outcome of the trial. During the police raid authorities found Norwegian military ID cards, counterfeit United Nations hats, employee ID badges with both the correct and false names of the two men. The employee badges are from a heretofore little known security company named Special Interventions Group (SIG) which is owned by and mostly staffed by Norwegians. [..] However, in previous public interviews Friksen and a staff member identifying himself as “John Hunt” has claimed that SIG has executed offensive combat operations in Africa, including in the DRC. According to Friksen these missions are conducted at the behest of paying clients though he did not disclose whom those clients may have been.

Sounds like it's their bogus story against that of the prosecutor.

The reputation of SIG is not very uplifting, according to the newspaper Aftenposten in 2007:

On the Monday edition of Dokument 2 images from the Norwegian managed security company Special Intervention Group's (SIG) extreme training course will be shown. The company is led by two Norwegians and provides training for Norwegians, Swedes and Danes to become bodyguards in war-torn countries like Iraq and Afghanistan, newspaper Dagbladet reports.

TV 2 has acquired a classified police report on the "specialized security industry" and according to the program SIG is one of the most feared companies in terms of creating potential criminals. The police report claims to have confirmed information that SIG has carried out liquidation assignments in Afghanistan for the American government, but the company rejects the accusation as "nonsense".

Like Louis said, Oslo probably shouldn't go the extra mile for these two backpackers.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

well actually, it might be something you hand in after your service has ended, I wouldn't know, there's still a long time until I'm 45 and my service has ended.... Oh, sweet sweet dimmedag...

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So is conscription a plus or minus in a countries lifestyle rating?

Sounds like Aus has a lot in common with some aspects of Scandiavian life, lifespan, literacy, economies... minus the snow and conscription.

:no:

The accused: Joshua French and Tjostolv Moland has been sentenced to death (five times) to day about quarter past one Western European time.

The indictments are: espionage, murder, attempted murder, armed robbery and organising a criminal federation.
Additionally, Norway must pay 60 million dollars to Kongo.

I am awaiting the response of the Norwegian government. These boys clearly needs to be extracted from this place where justice apparently bears no meaning.

In my opinion, Norway should stop giving any aid money to DR Congo from now on. And not pay a penny of what the Congolese want. If anyone comes to my door asking for money for relief efforts or similar, I'll tell them No.

The trial has been just one big mess. Although I'm not so sure if they are innocent or not. Don't exactly think they were there as tourists.

any official statement from norway yet?

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

any official statement from Norway yet?

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Yes.

I just heard the official statement from our foreign minister Jonas Gahr Støre (not Gah - Gahr. Or maybe we should just call him Gah Støre?).

In brief: The Norwegian state reacts strongly to the death sentence. But will not comment on the actual court process. He says that the process is not over - there is no legally enforcement in place as they can appeal to a higher court (civil) twice. It is therefore wise not to accuse the Congolese of anything yet because that could put these two young men in further jeopardy.

The Norwegian state protests the allegation that these two have spied for Norway in Congo and will actively work to overturn that part of the conviction.

The Norwegian state will contact the foreign minister in Congo and reiterate their strong objection to death sentences in general and for these to in particular. Støre will also contact Carl Bildt, the EU chairman.
He also holds Congo responsible for the security of French and Moland. He iterates that Norway must not act according to the Congolese prejudice towards general Europeans and jeopardise the security of these men. He says Congo is a nation that has suffered immensely and is still suffering. On the question of the court process - he simply said: I have noted the contrasts, but will not make a formal opinion as the process is not over - they should be considered innocent until proven guilty

I think at some point Norway will buy them free. (Outright ransom? Buying 500 million Euro's worth of diamond, copper, oil?)

Then they can have their Meghari triumphal parade in Oslo - the standard 'welcome home' for terrorists the world over.



I feel like going all Congo on Norway. Charge it heftily for any help in getting these two men out of there. Should've joined the EU before. No free rides, can't have your cake and eat it too etc etc. This sort of case is exactly what the pro-EU crowd means when it speaks about safety in numbers. I don't see NATO invading the Congo anytime soon, I don't think Norway is capable of. Communal pressure would do the trick. Not to mention, Belgium and France have excellent contacts and some leverage in Central Africa. There is always some business deal going on somewhere that can help bring these two back.

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The accused: Joshua French and Tjostolv Moland has been sentenced to death

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Oh dear, what a pity, never mind.
If idiots choose to go and play silly buggers in a ****hole then thats their own lookout.
With choice comes responsibility, the responsibility for their predicament lies solely with their own choices.

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

I think at some point Norway will buy them free. (Outright ransom? Buying 500 million Euro's worth of diamond, copper, oil?)

Then they can have their Meghari triumphal parade in Oslo - the standard 'welcome home' for terrorists the world over.

I feel like going all Congo on Norway. Charge it heftily for any help in getting these two men out of there. Should've joined the EU before. No free rides, can't have your cake and eat it too etc etc. This sort of case is exactly what the pro-EU crowd means when it speaks about safety in numbers. I don't see NATO invading the Congo anytime soon, I don't think Norway is capable of. Communal pressure would do the trick. Not to mention, Belgium and France have excellent contacts and some leverage in Central Africa. There is always some business deal going on somewhere that can help bring these two back.

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We have already spent hundreds of millions on humanitarian aid in Congo - sheesh, the dog now bites the hand that feeds it (no disrespect to the Congolese in general). French claims they were offered freedom if they came up with 30 000 dollars to the tribunal at the beginning of the court process. He claims this sentence was already decided a long time ago.

Norway could easily send in covert troops to extract Moland and French. But this would just enforce the prejudice the Congolese have of oppressing Europeans. It would be better if a civil Congolese court decleared them innocent of the charges. Let the process run its due. The Tribunal was an obvious farse. Anyone with eyes can see that.

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Norway could easily send in covert troops to extract Moland and French.

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Yeah right:dizzy2: Have you been watching too many movies?

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

Yeah right:dizzy2: Have you been watching too many movies?

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My guess is that you don't know me or my past, or know much about the training exchange between UK and Norway.
I used to travel to Scotland a few years back. I do not claim to be an ex-OP, but I was in the milieu so to speak.

Sigurd, seriosly... No, just no.

You seem to have absolutely no idea what it would take to pull off such a rescue attempt, or the size of the international scandal if it was intended.

1. You would have to know the EXACT location of the prisoners over a couple of days (just one hour one day is not enough, you need to have some time for unexpected stuff).

2. You would have to smuggle a spec-op squad into the heart of Congo undetected.

3. You would have to make sure the spec-ops got weapons and gear for the job, undetected (least of the problems, but still a problem).


so, even if you manage to get a geared up spec-op team in place, with excellent intelligence, there are still some issues..

A) You would have to shoot your way in, killing civilians...

B) You must have a safe escape afterwards, a clear road and a hiding place till extraction... Given the national uproar that would come, this might not be very easy.


Even if successfull, the operation would shame Norway a LOT and cause trouble with africa at large.

If unsuccessfull, you would stand with a spec-ops team caught for public display. No only would you now have 12 or so norwegians in custody instead of two, but you would be in a very very wierd situation when it coems to negotiating.

I must agree with Tribes, you have seen a bit too many movies...

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

Sigurd, seriosly... No, just no.

You seem to have absolutely no idea what it would take to pull off such a rescue attempt, or the size of the international scandal if it was intended.

1. You would have to know the EXACT location of the prisoners over a couple of days (just one hour one day is not enough, you need to have some time for unexpected stuff).

2. You would have to smuggle a spec-op squad into the heart of Congo undetected.

3. You would have to make sure the spec-ops got weapons and gear for the job, undetected (least of the problems, but still a problem).

so, even if you manage to get a geared up spec-op team in place, with excellent intelligence, there are still some issues..

A) You would have to shoot your way in, killing civilians...

B) You must have a safe escape afterwards, a clear road and a hiding place till extraction... Given the national uproar that would come, this might not be very easy.


Even if successfull, the operation would shame Norway a LOT and cause trouble with africa at large.

If unsuccessfull, you would stand with a spec-ops team caught for public display. No only would you now have 12 or so norwegians in custody instead of two, but you would be in a very very wierd situation when it coems to negotiating.

I must agree with Tribes, you have seen a bit too many movies...

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First of all, it could be done. But let's not pull straw men from my text here. Read back to my actual statement - it was a response to Louis' suggestion of Norway not being capable of such operations. Believe me we are capable, more capable than what is publicly believed.
I said it could be done - but It will not be done because of the diplomatic reasons you mention.

The Norwegian state will allow Congo to fix this scandal themselves. Apparently there is a quarrel between the local government in the city where the trial was held and the central government. This was apparently a political mooning by the tribunal in Kisangani to the government in Kinshasa.
I resent the “movie” accusation but will not discuss this particular issue any further.

I hope Norway manages to gets its boys out of there. There's no way they could possibly get a fair trial in that hellhole.

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My guess is that you don't know me or my past, or know much about the training exchange between UK and Norway.
I used to travel to Scotland a few years back. I do not claim to be an ex-OP, but I was in the milieu so to speak.

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Yeah?
So you should understand that getting into the country would be extremely difficult even if you could get assistance and access from a neighbouring country , once in movement would be near enough impossible and getting out again would require a miracle.
The only viable route in or out is from Brazzaville, but duexto the nature of the numerous wars going on in the state even the smallest boat cannot get onto the river without a military escort from the government.

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

Yeah?
So you should understand that getting into the country would be extremely difficult even if you could get assistance and access from a neighbouring country , once in movement would be near enough impossible and getting out again would require a miracle.
The only viable route in or out is from Brazzaville, but duexto the nature of the numerous wars going on in the state even the smallest boat cannot get onto the river without a military escort from the government.

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But your suggestion is only applicable if they are actually moved to Kinshasa. Right now they are over 1000 km from the capital.
Knowing the military - they might already have plans ready even if they will never execute them. I shall not speculate on the possible options. We haven't been in this situation before and I am not sure what the government will decide if they learn that their execution is imminent. But I know certain branches in the military has the sufficient training to do such operations. I know from first hand experience. Even with my training (which I suspect is somewhat better than the average Congolese soldier), I never saw them coming nor leaving and I was expecting them.

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Right now they are over 1000 km from the capital.

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Yes and the only ready access is by a single road or by the river , both of which are out of the question.
Both the UN and the government are unable to operate aircraft in the region without attendant gunships for support so that rules out a covert airbourne operation(even if they had somewhere to stage one from).
So that leaves an overland cross country route (which would still mean crossing the river) which involves trying to get through many thousands of rather nutty bloodthirsty militiamen who are very experienced at killing people in their current home territory and then getting through the government forces and their nutty militias too

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Even with my training (which I suspect is somewhat better than the average Congolese soldier),

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Since the Congolese soldiers have been fighting a very intense and very very bloody series of wars involving both regular and irregular actions for the past 11 years I doubt your training exersises will compare very well for experience.

The only real options are pay up the extortion money or leave the two idiots to their fate , I would favour the latter.

Tribes, shall we note this as a "first"?

I however 100% agree...


Do not get me wrong, please... The trial was a JOKE. Also, the claim Congo has on the norwegian government isnt even a joke, it is just patethic.

These facts withstanding though -> the two Norwegians were SOF, soldiers of fortune.

They went down to Africa with hollywood all in their minds, trying to get some easy money.... Guess what, it backfired.

Natural selection, death penalty def is the right choice here (of course, they wont actually get killed, but still, I appreciate the general gesture).

Now, generaly, as a swede, I back Norway 100%. I love Norway, and I have sooooo many norwegian friends. But they all seem to have the same view, let these two idiots be left to their fate.



Side topic:

Sigurd, just back off. Contrary to you I have had spec-op training...

I have also trained with your FSK, also with your HJK...

Don't get me wrong, they are elite-units indeed... But this specific task is not really what they train for, or are supposed to accomplish.

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Do not get me wrong, please... The trial was a JOKE

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Of course.

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Also, the claim Congo has on the norwegian government isnt even a joke, it is just patethic.

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You can't blame them for trying.
If for example a Libyan was playing silly buggers in Scotland and had a Libyan military ID that said it was valid until 2016 would they try make a case that the silly bugger must have been working for Libya

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

Of course.

You can't blame them for trying.
If for example a Libyan was playing silly buggers in Scotland and had a Libyan military ID that said it was valid until 2016 would they try make a case that the silly bugger must have been working for Libya

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Well, I doubt they would ask for billions...

I mean, seriosly, for the money Congo wants you coud basicly buy Switzerland...

Oh well, it's Africa..... anything goes... I start to have a whole new respect for the people from Congo that made me move from my former neighbourhood... I get why thy fled, as well as I get why the acted the way they did...

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

Sigurd, just back off. Contrary to you I have had spec-op training...

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:huh:

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I have also trained with your FSK, also with your HJK...

Don't get me wrong, they are elite-units indeed... But this specific task is not really what they train for, or are supposed to accomplish.

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That you have trained with a few of our elite-groups doesn't make you a qualified expert on what Norwegian covert operations can and can't do. To the contrary. I assume you trained in Scotland with SAS then?

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

I have also trained with your FSK, also with your HJK...

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FSK, HJK.... but what about tourists?

Ps: any courtroom which has the same furniture as most people have in their garden should not be taken serious...

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That you have trained with a few of our elite-groups doesn't make you a qualified expert on what Norwegian covert operations can and can't do. To the contrary. I assume you trained in Scotland with SAS then?

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So an example of what the SAS can do?
Sierra Leone . A short range insertion with air support across friendly territory and with assistance from the local government plus numerical superiority.
None of which would apply for the Congo.

SAS, FSK, HJK, ... :rolleyes:


What a bunch of wusses!

I am a member of the super secret and ultra trained Special Belgian Beer Squad (S.B.B.S.).

It's so secret that even I, myself, a member of it, am not entirely sure of its' existence! Maybe it indeed doesn't even exist, which would be the ultimate plan to ensure its' secrecy! And I'm a proud member of it. I think.

Well, anyway, getting those guys out of Congo is very easy.

You only need a big truck loaded with thousands of bottles of Duvel. You drive into the enemy territory and hand out the Duvel.

Those weaklings of petty soldiers with their petty years of experience will fall unconscious after only one bottle. We, highly trained S.B.B.S.'ers will drink together with them, but since we are so highly trained, we won't get drunk.

So, when the entire enemy force is passed out, we just take the hostages with us and we'll get out the country. Ha! We'll even be celebrating and dancing and making lots of noise! Stealth is for wimps!

The only risk of the plan is that me and my colleagues, being addicted to hard training as we are, will drink all the Duvel ourselves before we even reach Congo.

~:cheers:

Gah, spreading your lies again I see! You're nothing compared to the brave men of the Special Camel Service! Our chaps survive for days in enemy territory on nothing but a flagon of camel milk, still steaming hot from the udder. We are considerably more elite than all the rest of you put together!

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Originally Posted by Asai Nagamasa

Gah, spreading your lies again I see! You're nothing compared to the brave men of the Special Camel Service! Our chaps survive for days in enemy territory on nothing but a flagon of camel milk, still steaming hot from the udder. We are considerably more elite than all the rest of you put together!

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The SCS are just a bunch of tourists compared to us, S.B.B.S.'ers :snobby:

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Originally Posted by Andres

S.B.B.S.

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Hah...unlike all the tough-talking guys from elsewhere, the S.B.B.S.'s track record really does include the conquest of Central African territory the size of Western Europe. ~:cheers:
[CENTER]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Andres au Congo

Picture deleted by picky moderator. Though I have NO reason to believe the stereotypical representation of Africans depicted in the cartoon were intended to convey an inappropriate message, I will err on the side of safety. SF

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Originally Posted by Sigurd

:huh:

That you have trained with a few of our elite-groups doesn't make you a qualified expert on what Norwegian covert operations can and can't do. To the contrary. I assume you trained in Scotland with SAS then?

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Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

No, I am not an expert on Norwegian special operation teams... I do however have somewhat OK-ish knowledge of what spec ops can and can not do..

I have not trained with them in Scotland, no. back in 00/01 we had a joint arctic survival program for sweden, norway and finland. And in 02/03 I helped the snipers (inte krypskyttarna, utan skarpskyttarna) prepare for their trip to Afghanistan.

The problem with your scenario isnt that the troops cant do it, the problem is getting them there and back with sufficient intelligence and equipment. Thus more of a logistical problem than tactical one (like always).

ON TOPIC: Congo is just looking for a bribe... Norway is rich, and Congo knows this. This should have been settled before it even came to court, then the bribes would have been minimal. Now, after all the attention, the bribes are going to be HUGE as Congo put a lot of prestige into it.

I still believe the two idiots should rot in some prison, though.



Mithrandir,

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FSK, HJK.... but what about tourists?

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What about them? I dont quite get you, or were you just spamming?



Tribes, excellent example. The USA has also done some prison-rescues, blackbirds landing on the yards with guns blazing.


Andres, thank you for your insight... I am glad you contributed to this thread. Deep and meaningful like always, I *bow* I think it's great that you are so on topic, and not idiotic at all :)

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

Andres, thank you for your insight... I am glad you contributed to this thread. Deep and meaningful like always, I *bow* I think it's great that you are so on topic, and not idiotic at all :)

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That's the spirit, all of us spec-ops chappies should stick together.

:yes:

I don't think the FSK or HJK could do this, the KSK perhaps but why should they?
The PSM and the GSG are not responsible for this and should not be used abroad, their training is also not for long-range infiltration.
I'm using Dublin, Frankfurt, Copenhagen and Rio de Janeiro as references here where the respective forces showed what they are really capable of.

In the end Norway should probably just pay instead of sending any of these into a big death trap.

I think we need to send in the A-team.

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

I think we need to send in the A-team.

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Good idea. That way you can insure nobody, on either side, actually gets shot.

CR
PS Wow, Tintin was racist.

To return to spec-ops: Sigurd, where I said it is 'not possible', I mean unfeasable. I am quite convinced that Norway could militarily get these two man out. I am also fairly certain that the US can nuke every corner of Afghanistan. It's just not politically viable. Norway's best bet I think is to reach an agreement whereby the right people in Congo get some prize (a five hundred million pound oil contract?), the death sentence is reduced to imprisonment, and this imprisonment is executed in Norway itself.

~~-~~-~~-<o0O0o>-~~-~~-~~

Let's re-ignite the discussion.

The question remains: does Congo have a case? I am not so sure that they do not.

http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/ur...cle3246391.ece

In 2007 these two soldiers of fortune were relieved from the military in Norway for...recruiting for their terrorist organisation within the army. A mere two years ago. Why didn't Norway keep track of these terrorists? How were they able to set up shop in Uganda, unhampered? To start and operate a mercenary firm that employed mostly Norwegians? Although granted that evidence of other acts or persons involved is not really emerging.

If one drops the racist glasses, it is not the Congo, but Norway that shows questionable behaviour. One is a poor country. The other among the richest and most developed in the world. It is easy to laugh at the poor negroes, for their courtroom that uses furniture only deemed fit for garden use in Norway.

But the silly negroes got their man. They dismantled a foreign terrorist organisation fairly soon after it started killing. If anything, Congo -dirt poor- needs to be admired for its rapid and succesful anti-terror intelligence. Intelligence, that apparantly Norway was unwilling or incapable of acting upon or providing.

Norway, once its done laughing at the undisciplined negroes, could also accept that it has very little to show for itself.
Imagine two Pakistanis radicalizing, openly recruiting within the Pakistan army, and then starting a terrorist organisation in Denmark, and the founders being caught in Norway after they killed a Norwegian, complete with pictures of themselves laughing while wiping off his blood? What would we think of Pakistan?
In this case, would the world side with Pakistan against Norway? Or the reverse?


How many other Norwegian terrorists are operating abroad? Have the other members of this group been arrested yet, or has Norway at least investigated who might be involved? I suppose not. I do not hear any excuses coming from Norway. Just arrogant protests, bordering on the racist. The same racist arrogance that motivated these two clowns - luckily those "darkies" weren't as stupid as they thought they were after all.

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

Let's re-ignite the discussion.

The question remains: does Congo have a case? I am not so sure that they do not.

http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/ur...cle3246391.ece

In 2007 these two soldiers of fortune were relieved from the military in Norway for...recruiting for their terrorist organisation within the army. A mere two years ago. Why didn't Norway keep track of these terrorists? How were they able to set up shop in Uganda, unhampered? To start and operate a mercenary firm that employed mostly Norwegians? Although granted that evidence of other acts or persons involved is not really emerging.

If one drops the racist glasses, it is not the Congo, but Norway that shows questionable behaviour. One is a poor country. The other among the richest and most developed in the world. It is easy to laugh at the poor negroes, for their courtroom that uses furniture only deemed fit for garden use in Norway.

But the silly negroes got their man. They dismantled a foreign terrorist organisation fairly soon after it started killing. If anything, Congo -dirt poor- needs to be admired for its rapid and succesful anti-terror intelligence. Intelligence, that apparantly Norway was unwilling or incapable of acting upon or providing.

Norway, once its done laughing at the undisciplined negroes, could also accept that it has very little to show for itself.
Imagine two Pakistanis radicalizing, openly recruiting within the Pakistan army, and then starting a terrorist organisation in Denmark, and the founders being caught in Norway after they killed a Norwegian, complete with pictures of themselves laughing while wiping off his blood? What would we think of Pakistan?
In this case, would the world side with Pakistan against Norway? Or the reverse?

How many other Norwegian terrorists are operating abroad? Have the other members of this group been arrested yet, or has Norway at least investigated who might be involved? I suppose not. I do not hear any excuses coming from Norway. Just arrogant protests, bordering on the racist. The same racist arrogance that motivated these two clowns - luckily those darkies weren't as stupid as they thought they were after all.

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Where do you get the terrorist allegations from Louis? Its certainly not in the news article you provided. It states: Armed private missions in Africa, and then examples for such: like guards on a ship or at oil installations. Terrorism? I think not.

And the racist remarks are pathetic Louis. It is the contrasts that boggles our mind. The court case has been well reported here from several journalists present at the court. The Norwegian state has spend hundreds of millions in DR of Congo, building schools, hospitals etc.
We very much sympathize with the civilian population of Congo and the suffering they have endured during the recent wars. I am sure we will, despite of this rather sad tribunal, continue to spend money in Congo.

These men could be guilty, but they were never given a fair trial. The appeal has been delivered and the process is not finished.
The Norwegian State has confidence in Congo, that a fairer trial will be conducted in a civil court away from Kinsangani where they think little of the central government.

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Where do you get the terrorist allegations from Louis? Its certainly not in the news article you provided. It states: Armed private missions in Africa, and then examples for such: like guards on a ship or at oil installations. Terrorism? I think not.

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Oil companies in Africa, S. America and Asia are well known for not having their mercenaries ......err...security guards commit acts of terrorism.

My guess is that the two mercs will get a commuted sentence in a Norwegian Gaol.

Republic of Congo citizens get easier visa access to Norway (student/tourist visas... which will only be useful to the upper echelons) and maybe a joint oil development (sharing of technologies etc) might get fast tracked.

I've mulled over the idea of absurd wars, I'm pretty sure the Great Norwegian-Congo War of 2009 would be somewhere on the top of this list.

I agree with Tribes and Kadagar, these guys knew **** well what they were getting themselves into, and if they didn't, well then they deserve the fate that has been handed to them even more.

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Originally Posted by Wakizashi

I've mulled over the idea of absurd wars, I'm pretty sure the Great Norwegian-Congo War of 2009 would be somewhere on the top of this list.

I agree with Tribes and Kadagar, these guys knew **** well what they were getting themselves into, and if they didn't, well then they deserve the fate that has been handed to them even more.

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I dont think so. Look at the picture, seems like they were joking. Probaly thought nothing was going to happen to them and their excuse of why the driver is dead was good enough.

Louis, you sound like every other person that voted in Bush 2 terms using the word "terrorist" in every other sentence. Learn what a terrorist actually it. Hint; its not every person that you dont like and uses a gun contrary to popular belief.

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Louis, you sound like every other person that voted in Bush 2 terms using the word "terrorist" in every other sentence.

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That deserves an award for the funniest thing written on this forum for a long time.

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Learn what a terrorist actually it.

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Define what a terrorist is then Mooks.

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

That deserves an award for the funniest thing written on this forum for a long time.



Define what a terrorist is then Mooks.

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Alright, how bout this straight from dictionary.com

"a person, usually a member of a group, who uses or advocates terrorism"

Well well, the Norwegian prime-minister's spokesman has distanced himself from the two gentlemen, calling them 'to norske idioter i Kongo' ('Two Norwegian idiots in Congo').

But the story about their private security company engaging in all sorts of murky business as reported by Aftenposten certainly points to the indirect, but conscious involvement of the Norwegian state. Indeed, those Congolese prosecutors seem to have a better case than some of us thought.

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Originally Posted by Adrian II

Well well, the Norwegian prime-minister's spokesman has distanced himself from the two gentlemen, calling them 'to norske idioter i Kongo' ('Two Norwegian idiots in Congo').

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:laugh4:
Your googlefu aint that strong my friend. This so-called spokesman is a former advisor to Bondevik from the Christian People's party - not in government by the way, and wrote it on twitter. When confronted by the press, he deleted it and admitted it was a stupid thing to do.

As much as you guys want to tarnish the reputation of Norway, you got to try harder. Why would Norway want to spy on Congo using these two? If the Congolese really believed Norway had ill intent why not arrest all the Norwegian humanitarian workers in Congo?
If these two kids are guilty - their guilt is on their heads alone.

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Originally Posted by Sigurd

:laugh4:
Your googlefu aint that strong my friend. This so-called spokesman is a former advisor to Bondevik from the Christian People's party - not in government by the way, and wrote it on twitter. When confronted by the press, he deleted it and admitted it was a stupid thing to do.

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It appears to be deleted from twitter, but to NRK he said that he did not regret his wording. (http://nrk.no/nyheter/1.6765698)

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Originally Posted by Sigurd

:laugh4:
Your googlefu aint that strong my friend. This so-called spokesman is a former advisor to Bondevik from the Christian People's party - not in government by the way, and wrote it on twitter. When confronted by the press, he deleted it and admitted it was a stupid thing to do.

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So he did say it. Sorry about the obsolete job description, but doesn't his remark reflect the private attitude of Norway's leadership on the issue?

Anyway, it seems that Mr French had to resign from the Norwegian army when it was discovered that he and Mr Moland were recruiting soldiers for private security companies operating in Africa. So they were not serving only the King of Norway, were they? Their SIG company seems a murky outfit at best. They were carrying false identity papers and they were scouting an area where new oil deposits had recently been discovered. Now that's spying. What else were they and the SIG up to?

French had assumed the false name of 'John Hunt'. The Private Military Herald reports that

Representatives from SIG have thus far not commented publicly on the pending trial of Moland and French. However, in previous public interviews members of their staff, including one identifying himself as “John Hunt” had claimed that SIG has executed offensive combat operations in Africa, including in the DRC.

SIG has even been mentioned by Aftenposten in connection with murder missions. If anyone in this case tarnishes the reputation of Norway, methinks it is these two guys.

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Alright, how bout this straight from dictionary.com

"a person, usually a member of a group, who uses or advocates terrorism"

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Very good Mook , well done. What is terrorism?
A dictionary definition will do , but it will raise another question about another word to define.
So before you wrote

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Learn what a terrorist actually it.

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pehaps you should have thought about it first.

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When confronted by the press, he deleted it and admitted it was a stupid thing to do.

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Wow politicians admitting that what they said was stupid, like that Edwina Curry saying british eggs were contaminted , it was true but a silly thing to do. McCreevy and Cowen both said they hadn't read Lisbon , true but a silly thing to do.

Sigurd, Mooks, I labelled these two men terrorists because:

- Poetic license
- Because terrorists is what they would've been branded as, if instead of white Norwegian, they had been Muslim Norwegians.
- To get some fire into the debate. I tried to walk behind the façade of the building, to check what it looks like from the other side. Rather differently, I thought it did.
- Because the false names they picked are 'Mike Callan' and 'John Hunt'. :daisy: Nice touch that. I think this is quite telling of their level of respect towards their African surroundings. Can anyone make something of 'John Callan'?


European adventurers/soldiers of fortune/terrorists are in Guantanamo. Which is well comparable to this case. Has there been, in any Gitmo case involved, the same national outcry? I can't think of any. And at least in this Congo case, the defendants did get a speedy trial. Does this not show the racism of Europe?


The Congo (I forgot exactly whom) confirmed today that these two men will not be executed. The Congo does not execute the death penalty. This is good news for the two Norwegians. And bad news, because Europe is explicitly opposed to the death penalty. This threat gone, and considering the nature of this case, support from Europe may not be unlimited.

Mooks:

If you're going to tilt at that most interesting of windmills, Tribesman, you simply MUST be prepared to parse the language carefully. Like all good Irish-descent critics and wordsmiths, he takes pains to hammer home the point that most English really don't know how to use their language properly and had to leave it to the Keltoi to bring it to its full flowering. :beam:


Tribes:

Tsk, tsk. I am certain that you are well aware of Mooks point.

Terrorism is to intentionally use violence against unarmed/uninvolved/innocent targets in an effort to maximize a sense of "terror" -- I think the German term "schrecklichkeit" actually captures the intended meaning of 'terror' in this usage -- so as to further a specific socio-political agenda. We tend to ascribe the label "terrorist" to those for whom such tactics have become habitual.

Therefore, some military actions -- even those enacted by Great Powers past and present -- can truthfully be described as terrorist attacks. Many other actions are semi-terroristic in that a legitimate target may be the primary focus of the act of violence in question, but little care to minimize civilian casualties (or even an outright disregard for same) was made. Most nations cannot be described as "terrorist states" because they have not and do not make such tactics a habitual practice. Sadly, there are few nations that have NOT performed some act of terrorism at some point in their history and it can be argued that many states were -- at least for some measurable historical period -- terror-states in that such tactics had become habitual.

Mercenaries of any stripe may, or may not, also be legitimately thought of as terrorists, depending upon their actions. The simple fact of being a mercenary and the simple fact of engaging in violence do not in and of themselves warrant the labels "terrorist" or "terrorism."


As to these two blokes and their actions, I do not know all of the specifics. Perhaps Louis' labeling of them is accurate as well as "poetic." Perhaps they were simply fighters relying on a sort of "dark humor" to get them through some episode (admittedly, such a sick sense of humor is itself problematic). I do not know.


From what I have gleaned in this thread, both of these individuals ARE flotsam that Norway would like to disown and leave to rot. The trial just undergone, however, appears to be farcical in character and execution. Couldn't Congolese prosecutors have produced some better evidence at trial? Or if they were mercs on the losing side of an engagement, why not simply use the traditional "field" solution for removing the problem? Why go to the trouble of a poorly conducted trial?

I believe Sigurd's outrage stems from the solid principle of taking care of one's own. He doesn't seem to think they were "martyred innocents" so much as he demands something for a fellow Norwegian that at least RESEMBLES legitimate due process of law. This is a sentiment with which I heartily agree.

I suspect Norway could make an extraction attempt if they wished. However difficult the task, Norway is possessed of a NATO-caliber military with a host of skills and abilities. It may be politically untenable to even try, but I do not believe it would be militarily impossible. There might be quite a price tag to it though.