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In deference to a terminally derailed thread in the Backroom, let us discuss all things pizza. Me, I'm an inclusive sort of lemur, and I think if you call it pizza, it's pizza. But there are clearly purists who hold that X is the only true pizza.
For my money, nothing is superior to the Carmen's stuffed spinach pizza in Chicago. A single slab of that stuff will feed a platoon for a week. Amazing food. Behold:
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/93/26...1855fb07db.jpg
Maybe we should askthepizzaguy?
Pizza is one of those foods like potato chips or milkshakes that it just doesn't make sense to have "gourmet" or high quality, fancy recipes. They taste good because they are chock full of unhealthy fats and carbs that we find tasty because it was an evolutionary advantage to do so. And since those ingredients are cheap, papa johns is the best pizza. I've had lots of other pizza that's as good as papa johns mind you, but the people who claim it's better are the types who automatically downgrade something if it's mass produced. Coke is the only product I've ever seen be immune to that.
Alright, everything called pizza is pizza. I have no problems with that.
My point in ze other thread was about which country has the best pizza. And the best I have ever had is the Italian variant. And the greek one which is basically the same.
But I still enjoy the thicker american variant, of course. But the thin Italian one is something special, it honestly can't be compared to the thicker variants.
And of course, the more prominent a dish is in a region, the more people specialize in making it, the better it will be, period. American pizza is one dish out of 100 others. In Italy, pizza is more special than it is in the US; and they have thus become better at it.
Kinda like how turks and pakistani immigrants make the best kebab, while ethnic norwegians make crap kebab.
Yes, the american version is chok full of unhealthy stuff... The italian version isn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro
Pizza isn't really the kind of thing you have a “best” variant of. It's somewhat like asking about the “best” colour. We can agree that in general violent pink isn't 100% suitable for every occasion; just like how we can agree you probably shouldn't add chocolate to pizzas. But the best mix/combination?
What is so "unhealthy" in pizza?
Cheese is meant to be good for you.
Tomato is meant to be good for you.
Bazil (if going for more italian style) is meant to be good for you.
Some dough. (I don't see how that is bad).
Various meats. (Meat is good for you)
Problem? Only problem I can forsee is if you just stuff your face to excess.
The best colour is purple.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios
Fatty foods + carbohydrates(crust) + tastes really good so you eat lots of it. Usually you have soda with it as well, a shame not too really.
I prefer an ice cold beer with my Pizza, but Rootbeer used to be the thing to drink with pizza when I was a kid.
Anywho, there seems to be a rivalry between Chicago "Deep Dish" Fanatics, and the more traditional "New York" Styles. Both sides seem pretty much firmly entrenched in their beliefs that their pizza is better than the other, actually New Yorkers claim Chicago Style isn't Pizza at all, which of course is vehemently rebuffed by the Deep Dish fans. Nobody is debating whether or not real Italian Pizza is Pizza in America, because it is, it just happens to lack any definable character.
My feelings for mass produced pizza is the same feeling I have for Fast Food, McDonalds is free to call a disgustingly greasy, thin slab of mystery meat a hamburger, so Pizza Hut/Papa Johns is free to call a circular disk shaped object with soured tomato sauce, a light sprinkling of Mozzarella, and whole lotta bacon grease a Pizza, but I fail to see how one could possibly find this to be more appealing than, well, pretty much any small time Pizzeria that actually takes the time and spends a little extra money to make it taste, you know, like it should be consumed.
EDIT:*ok, I need to calm down. had a VERY bad day.
but seriously, the best pizza? there is no such thing as the best pizza. all pizza, so long as it isn't cooked improperly (as in over or undercooked), is good. think about it: they all have lush layers of cheese, tomato sauce, and all sort of toppings. I love to smear my pizza with unhealthy stuff, even pepperoni (when I was in Kuwait-not in the US where its made of pork). and all that with lots of Coke.:2thumbsup:
besides, what kind of backroom topic gets into pizza?
ok...I need to stop wishing ill on the policy maker. sorry about that-I just lost my card to the 1st national bank's atm (so yes ATM's do steal your money), and when I called them, the workers said that all non 1st national cards get shreded the next day-no exceptions. isn't that great? 500 Dollars down the drain because some moron in the 1st national thought it was a good idea to shred people's cards, and ruin their livelyhood. sick ***.
Mmmmm, Chicago-style pizza. Loves me some deep dish! Lord Whacker approves of The Great Prosimian's OP!
America: Freest Country?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibrahim
Seriously. I don't even want to try to reconstruct how we got from a debate of "freedom" to pizza, but it probably makes sense in some twisted Backroom sort of way.
By your reasoning, hamburgers are healthy as well:Quote:
Originally Posted by Beskar
Cheese slice is meant to be good for you.
Tomatoes is meant to be good for you.
Lettuce is a veggie; so are pickles.
Everyone knows how healthy onions are.
A bun. (I don't see how that is bad)
Beef patty (Meat is good for you, especially when it is beef, and not the fatty, unhealthy pork)
No, pizzas are junk food, as is a hamburger. Pizzas are high in simple carbohydrates (the complex carbs come from whole grain), very high in fat and saturated fat, along with cholesterol. Serisouly, mots pizzas are soaked in grease. Most pizzas have very little vegetables, and the ones that do feature non-fresh, over-cooked veggies, which have lost most of their nutritional content.
The cheese used in the pizza is notoriously greasy, and in general all cheeses, except the low-fat varieties, are chock full of fats. For instance, the minuscule slice of American cheese, found in a hamburger has 50% saturated and regular fat - we have it in our fridge, and I always check the nutritional fact of everything I eat.
The meat in the pizza is plentiful, but it is pork - pepperoni and salvage are pork. High in cholesterol, saturated fat, regular fat, and containing harmful amounts of dioxins, as all the red meat (which pork is not, but shares too man similarities, including dioxin contamination). We all know why red meat is bad, and how it causes cancer, and how it is better to eat poultry or even better, fish.
The dough is white, bleached flour, which has simple carbs, plenty of calories and fat without any fiber or other benefits of whole grain bread.
No, pizzas are junk food. It is common knowledge, and in this case, common knowledge is correct. Although Papa John's pizza is of superior taste, quality, and nutrition to to other brands, such as say, Dominoes, it is nevertheless fast food, and unhealthy.
Final note: the pizza they make in Italy is relatively much better, nutritionally speaking. And Italians are not as heavy eaters or as light exercisers as Americans are.
Nothing unhealthy about a pizza like that. But, fast food pizza is unhealthy because of the amount of oil they use to speed up the cooking process. :smash:Quote:
Originally Posted by Beskar
Anyone tried a deep fried pizza before?
I haven't had pizza in Italy, Greece, or dozens of other countries, so I can't give an educated opinion on who has the best pizza, but I feel safe saying China has the worst. I think it's tied to the complete absence of any dairy products in the country. They also haven't figured out how to do ice cream, yet, though they're trying. My wife got what looked like an ice cream bar, but turned out to be something like frozen creamed corn on a stick. None of the other "ice-cream-like" products were any closer to the real thing.
In terms of American pizzas, I've had the pizza in New York, and frankly, I wasn't that impressed. The first time I had a deep dish (and it was Papa Murphy's, not anything from an actual Chicago pizzeria), I was floored. Those things are amazing, and redefine the limits of what humanity and food are capable of together. My vote goes to Chicago.
Ajax
This is close to what the pizza they served us in China looked like: The Chinese Attempt
My favorite chain is Grotto Pizza.
But when you live so near to the pizza capital of the world, as I do, you have to hit the local places for the really memorable stuff. :wink:
I must admit that looks seriously awesome. I guess when Americans say deep-pan they really mean it. You are supposed to eat one if those???Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemur
But I still enjoy the thicker american variant, of course. But the thin Italian one is something special, it honestly can't be compared to the thicker variants.
Special in a way that it is called Italian but is hardly served in Italy. Personally I think it's quite rediculous that Scandinavians are allowed to have an opinion in pizza. I know
I hate to break this to you Lemur, but that is a flan.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemur
We also have a variation, the quiche
https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...ony/quiche.jpg
But what the Lemur has there is more pizza than it is pie imho.
I don't go to the backroom (have no access, don't want any), so I asked.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemur
but I get the idea. I don't need to know anymore.
This thread makes me hungry...
EDIT: my favourite pizza is the quattro formaggi :2thumbsup:
I have eaten Pizza in Italy as well as Pizza here in the US. Italian pizza has:
*Better sauce.
*better veggies
*Better spices.
American Pizza has:
*more variety
*bigger slices
*better crust
In the NYC vs. Chicago argument, being from NJ, i have to say that Chicago style "pizza" is not Pizza, but i can overlook that because it is freakin amazingly delicious.
NYC pizza is very good but it is getting way too Americanized. Don't get me wrong, i like the innovative ideas they have come up with here, like Buffalo wing pizza, Ham&pineapple pizza, these taste very good, but they are in no way traditional.
Then you have NJ pizza. NJ pizza is almost like NYC pizza but we tend to stick to old world recipes and use fresher ingredients. Basically combine the Italian Pizza with the NYC pizza and you have NJ pizza.
Word to the Wise: if you ever come to NJ, don't buy pizza from the big professional chains or restaurants. Go down to the Jersey shore and get a slice from any small Mom&Pop owned pizza place along the boardwalk. It's HEAVEN in a slice.
Like most other foods, pizza isn't unhealthy unless you habitually overeat.
That said, this place has some great chicken pizza and buffalo wings.
https://i494.photobucket.com/albums/...lass/fddsd.jpg
deep-dish rules.
A human being can eat maybe one slice. Two if they are competition-grade eaters. When I was young and poor, a single Carmen's pizza could keep me going for a week or more. (Admittedly, ir didn't taste as good after a freeze and re-heat, but it was still better than Ramen Noodles, and the calorie-for-dollar count was favorable.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Go tell some Chicagoans that their pizza is actually flan. Please. And make sure somebody videotapes the subsequent beating.Quote:
Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost
Nice way to absolutely ignore my post... But of course, that was purposeful, eh? :juggle2::laugh4:Quote:
Originally Posted by Azathoth
Ever heard of tl;dr? :sweatdrop:Quote:
Originally Posted by Aemilius Paulus
I think we all have...Quote:
Originally Posted by coalition
Pardon me, I forgot to [insult] my posts for my fellow EB Taverners. You'll have to excuse those poor brutes - they are not capable of [insult] :sweatdrop::shame::no:. God, they remind me so much of [obscenity]...
At least they could have paid lip-service to my post... Lip service is better than no service :sad:.
:clown:
Come on this is about Pizza. Healthy or not, shouldn't matter. Although it can be hazardous to eat if you get a really hot slab of cheese that slaps you in the chin and gives you a 2nd degree burn.
i just realized. i have the EXACT same tshirt as the guy the background.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemur
"i do all my own stunts."
Best pizza I've ever had...
Chicken Hawaiian : tomato, cheese, chicken, herb and pineapple large for $16.90
4 Slices of pizza. Two slices was a huge meal. I couldnt eat anymore, and I hadnt eaten anything all day (was about 1pm)
Dinner was the third slice, breakfast the next day didnt happen, lunch and dinenr combined was the last one. I struggled.
not nearly as bad*** as my Geology club t-shirt, whose words I will not mention here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hooahguy
I don't think the Deep Pan 'Chicago Pizza' is a pizza ... it is a marketing term rather than Hot Quiche or Flan which it is identical too.
Having said that, I would love to eat that monstrosity.
And I have ate chocolate 'pizzas', it had marshmellows and some sort of cornflakes... nothing special.
Woodfire pizzas are pretty common at the non-chain pizza stores in Aus. Can get huge range of types from the more authentic Italian to Aussie varieties. Also get the Pides which are very similar in overall style.
HERESY.
Chicago Flan it is. :yes:
It doesn't look bad but more like a cake than a pizza.
Both Chicago and NY style pizzas are losers when compared to a true Italian pizza with fresh ingrediants.
NY style is (kinda) Italian style, in central Italy they also serve a thicker crust.
With all due respect: there ain't no such thing. Tomato wasn't introduced into Europe until the 1500's, so a smear of tomato paste/sauce is out as "authentic original"; so we're talking flat bread with some kinda cheese melted on top as a "true Italian pizza", and cheese, by definition is never 'fresh'.Quote:
Originally Posted by TinCow
Therefore, I submit that any bread-type product with any topping of any kind (though preferably melt-able), heated uncovered, is worthy of the designation "pizza".
By true Italian pizza, I mean pizza in the style in which it is made in Italy:Quote:
Originally Posted by KukriKhan
ultra-thin crust, requiring eating with a knife and fork
only a wafer-thin spattering of sauce (if any)
a non-uniform covering of toppings, with fresh greens such as whole basil leaves, spinach, etc.
if cheese is included (not required), it is always FRESH mozzarella (I weep for you if you don't understand the concept of fresh, handmade cheese... fresh mozzarella is eaten the SAME DAY it is made)
the only meat toppings are various cuts of salami and ham, no sausage or processed American 'pepperoni'
The Americans make nice pizza-like dishes, and imma let them finish, but the Italians have made one of the best foods of all time. Only theirs is 'pizza'.
Did you know that the French make pizza too? Millenia old, the pissaladière from the French Southeast. Odd as it may sound, one can use anything in a pissaladière, except those most basic of pizza ingredients: tomato sauce and cheese. :beam:
Oui. Patially-leavened peasant bread with whatever leftovers remain from yesterday on top, subjected to high heat = pizza.
Isn't processed American 'pepperoni' merely a spicey-hot salami? And I don't care how recently it was manipulated into its cook-able form, cheese hasta curdle to be cheese, so it can never be 'fresh'.
Common in the whole of the mediteranian, it's no different for the Italians. It was about leftovers really they threw on whatever they could find.Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
edit: as Kukri already explained.
pepperoni is American salami simple as that, also comes in multiple variety's.
And fresh mozarello, NO, the better Italian uses buffallo mozzeralla with pecoroni
Calling American 'pepperoni' salami is like calling the meat Taco Bell puts into their tacos beef. Technically, it's correct, but the differences in quality, preparation, and taste are so severe that they really are not the same thing. I actually find it very, very difficult to get a good salami in the US. The only common US brand I've seen that reliably makes high-quality salami is Columbus. Most US grocery stores carry half a dozen kinds of salami, if you're lucky. In Italy and Germany, there are literally hundreds of different kinds of salami. Americans know as much about how to make good salami as Japanese know about BBQ.Quote:
Originally Posted by KukriKhan
Fine, call it whatever you want to call it. The point is that month-old machine processed mozzarella is not remotely similar in flavor to mozzarella that is hand-made the same day you eat it.Quote:
And I don't care how recently it was manipulated into its cook-able form, cheese hasta curdle to be cheese, so it can never be 'fresh'.
This is the truth. Fresh made mozzarella is the closest to heavan I'll ever get.Quote:
Originally Posted by TinCow
Sorry about your salami but pepperoni comes in just as many variety's, also the garlic heavy Italian ones. You won't find the exact same thing you loved so much when you were on holiday in Italy, ok. But pepperoni=salami. Period.Quote:
Originally Posted by TinCow
Pepperoni does not mean the same everywhere. In America, it is means sausage. In Italy, it means pepper.
Italians in the new world will serve you something very different than Italians in Italy.
~~-~~-~~<<oOo>>~~-~~-~~
American 'pizza's' are fine. They took a concept and changed it beyond recognition. Me, I like NY pizza, but I could never eat Chicago pizza. But to each his own.
At any rate, as with so many cultural differences, it is not so much a matter of 'better'. As was said in the 'free-est country' thread that spawned all of this, the question is 'better by which standard'?
When judged by quality of ingredients, tradition, authenticity, refinement, there is no choice. The Italian pizza's are not just superior, they are simply the one and only.
This is not how one ought to judge American pizza. As with just about any cultural expression, one must judge American products by their creativity, youthful exuberance, sheer over-the-topness. Americans don't appreciate a pizza whose topping consists of a few leaves of divinely perfect basil. Americans want to invent the mother of all pizza's.
It's like US cars. They range from awful monster pick-up trucks, to those huge, slender 1950's dream machines with perfect curves and wings. Both stem from the same urge to overdo it, both are over the top. Ridiculously so even. From one point of view. From another, the latter are perfect, the greatest cars ever build. When they do get it right, the yanks can get it oh so right.
Hmmm, mozarella with fresh tomatoe, a couple of fresh basilicum leaves and some olive oil. So simple, yet so delicious.
A particular ingredient's origin does not necessarily have any bearing on "authenticity". Pretty much every major dish you can think of is based on what you might call "non native ingredients".Quote:
Originally Posted by KukriKhan
Many foodstuffs such as Chilli (capsicums), Potatoes, Tomatoes, Cacao, Maize, etc entered Europe, Africa and Asia from the Americas and became the important parts of dishes that could be termed "Authentic Indian", "Authentic Italian" or "Authentic Belgian" for example. This is because those dishes were invented and refined in those places.
At the same time many ingredients such as Beef, Lamb, Chicken, Plantains, Wheat, Rice, Coffee and various herbs/spices entered the Americas from Europe/Asia/Africa and became the basis for "Authentic American" ('American' as in North/South/Central) dishes.
"Authentic pizza" though, is most definitely Italian pizza. Whether it's the best or not is down to individual tastes.
:2cents:
in bali they have banana and chocolate pizza...Quote:
Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios
whatever you do to mozarella, just dont grill it...Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
When i had pizza in italy, I could still eat it by folding it Yank style. And this was no americanized pizza place either. It was a Pizzeria in Piazza Navona in Rome.Quote:
By true Italian pizza, I mean pizza in the style in which it is made in Italy:
ultra-thin crust, requiring eating with a knife and fork
There is something to be said for the gorgeously basic, wonderfully crafted pizza in Italy.
I also went to a Pizzeria in Firenze that served pizzas made in the American format, with the Italian style and ingredients, Best pizza I have ever had, but the Italian Pizza is not too far from the Pizza here in NJ.
That's a serious misconception about American food. Commercialized food is really over-the-top, no matter the country of origin. American's problem is that its commercialized food gets pushed on everyone else around the world, and everyone else assumes that's what Americans eat. In fact, most Americans appreciate simple, fine food just as much as anyone else.Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
In fact, although many people might like to boast about their mother-of-all-pizzas, the most popular pizza in the United States, by far, is the plain cheese pizza, and the best American pizza is a cheese pizza with the best possible quality of ingredients. That's what it's like with most American foods: we don't want a Mambo Superburger, we just want a regular cheeseburger with lettuce, tomato and mayo and a coke on the side. Maybe pickles, raw onions and ketchup as well. The traditional American recipes are even more steeped in what you perceive as a uniquely European taste; if you serve the wrong kind of barbecue at the wrong place, you will get your ass handed to you. People are fiercely loyal to their local recipes and disparage and look down upon all other versions as "inferior" and "inauthentic."
McDonalds =/= America, as much as they may want it to be.
Edit: I'm actually surprised you don't like Chicago pizza. I mean, yeah, they can be absurd, just like any over-the-top food, but the usual Chicago pizza is more like a European meat pie than anything. It ought to be fairly close to home for you.
I prefer to buy a base and put my own ingredients on it. Very rarely I make my own bases, but usually I can't be bothered. I also prefer tinner bases, not as filling perhaps, but I think the taste is much better on a thin base.
lol, what about 4? Does that make me super competition grade eater? :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Lemur
Dude, that makes you large and in charge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Just Vuk Again
:laugh4: Good pun.
Nah, just fat and greedy. :beam: My appetite has always been my down fall. :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Lemur
pizza, in my definition, is anything that meets all the following qualifications:
1. has some form of crust
2. has tomato sauce underneath some form of cheese
3. is NY-style mofos!
I now invoke the blessings of all the dark gods as I command this thread ... to live!!!
Ahem.
So, I'll be picking up my little sister from the airport in Chicago later this month, and I want to take the chance to experience a real Chicago pizza. So the question is, where do I go? Who'all make the best deep-dish pizzas in the Windy City? (and are any of them compatible with a grad student budget?) I've noted down Carmen's, as recommended by Lemur in the OP. Is this the place to go, or should I be heading somewhere else?
Ajax
I would tell you people, but then I would have to kill you.
I have recipes. Good recipes. And ideas. Comes with working at/partially owning a pizzeria through college, where I would come in and make what I wanted, not what was on the menu.
QSR Pizza, I actually like little ceasars, as in good pizza for 5 dollars. Cicis is the same. Both suck, but for the price or feeding stupid kids...vavoom
As for large chains, Mazzios has far superior IMO.
There is no point in talking about my fave ma and pa shops, because none of you will have heard about them.
I will say this: it's all about the dough.
^ pizza snob
I live in the bronx so the best new york style pizza in the world is at my fingertips. Literally 5 grade a pizza places I KNOW of within 4 blocks of me each with superb pizza.
I do go to little caesars sometimes when im feeling cheap and craving trash :shame:
Man, The Ceasars cant be beat for feeding a trailer full.Quote:
Originally Posted by Centurion1
And yes, I am a pizza snob. I will give you all another clue after crust being #1
#2 is where you get your cheese. There is a moisture level that mozerella needs to be at in order to get that uber "burned at the top" fell should you choose to go well done, or "gooey in the middle" fell should you choose to put all your toppings above the cheese.
Hell, I'm feeling generous, so I will gie u number 3:
You must drain unccoked veggies of water and pre cook greasy meats to keep moisture from accumulating underneath the top layer after cooking. Lots of local restos have what they call the "Pizza X Flop" where you take the fresh pie, turn it over, and body slam the box to shoot al the grease off the pie and into the box... no need for this if u have a solid prep crew and drained ingredients....
edit man my spelling sucks hen drunk and hungry
Amd for the record, ATPG is totally gonna come to work with me at my new pizza shops in the pacific. Now all I gotta do is invite him and get him to agree
Best pizza I had was at Opazzo in Rotterdam
there are many better pizzaria's in rotterdam :P angelo betti #1
Thx for the tip, I'll try it if I get the chanceQuote:
Originally Posted by The Stranger
stop calling yourself a pizza expert your insulting everyone on the internet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
:P
Most places here (besides chains) are Greek. I agree with MRD, crust is crucial! Fortunately, the best crust in Calgary was a block from the house.
The only thin crust place worth the name "pizza" was run by a guy from New Jersey and his boys. Always amazing! The crust was crisp, toppings fresh and generous. Once you got to know them, it just got better :)
Unfortunately both those places are gone now :(
My Chicago pizza info is seriously out of date, but if you're willing to accept decade old recommends:Quote:
Originally Posted by ajaxfetish
Carmen's for the stuffed spinach.
Giordano's for meat lovers.
Gino's East for the full tourist experience. (Great atmosphere, dive-joint taken to a fine art)
Don't know Little Ceasars but Pizza Hut and Domino's fall into the snack category, delicious at times though, won't argue with that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
Every time I see a food thread like this I feel so depressed.
It must be worth living in America just for the fast food. I'd kill for that stuffed pizza.
I've heard this term elsewhere too. What's a 'dive-joint' supposed to be?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemur
You live in India, the greatest cuisine in the world! I could eat curry or tandori every day without getting bored of it. You can make a pan pizza yourself, you don't need any special equipment just an oven and a thick pan, it's really easy you can find plenty of recepies on the webQuote:
Originally Posted by rajpoot
I've been eating that stuff since years and while I'm certainly not bored, but Western fast food has a special place in myQuote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
hearttummy..... :tongue:
It's just not the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
I mean sure I can get all the ingrediants and I can make a thick/thin crust pizza from scratch but the stuff they make in restaurants always tastes different. And no place here, or even in Delhi makes pizzas like that.
You'll be healthier and happier sticking to the best food in the world :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
:bow:Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemur
Ajax
Oh neither do they here, I am pretty desperate for a real American restaurant here, I am surprised there isn't any realy as it would run like crazy if they get it right. Only steakhouses.Quote:
Originally Posted by rajpoot
"Dive joint" or "dive" usually means an informal, unclean, lower-class kinda place. In the case of Gino's East, they take it to an interesting conclusion. Guests are encouraged to write or carve on the walls and booths, the entire place is dark with dark wood furniture and walls. So even though it presents a kinda rough look, it's actually fun. And the food is very good. So that is the sense in which I was using the term "dive joint."Quote:
Originally Posted by rajpoot