SB 1070 Or The Arizona Immigration Bill

Ok Gentleman what's the vedict?

Once again Arizona misses the point and decides to attack the people rather than the institutions.

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It requires police officers, “when practicable,” to detain people they reasonably suspect are in the country without authorization and to verify their status with federal officials, unless doing so would hinder an investigation or emergency medical treatment.

It also makes it a state crime — a misdemeanor — to not carry immigration papers. In addition, it allows people to sue local government or agencies if they believe federal or state immigration law is not being enforced.

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http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/24/us...s/24immig.html


How will that be enforced? I DONT HAVE THESE PAPERS WHERE DO I GET THESE PAPERS.

Right now I'm leaning toward draconian law sprung by a nice new surge of nativism but Im willing to have my mind changed/

Does this mean everybody's got to start carrying around their birth certificates?

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Originally Posted by Lemur

Does this mean everybody's got to start carrying around their birth certificates?

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IDK, My parents nor my grandparents have these things.....Does this mean I have to go back to Europe? :sad:

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Originally Posted by NYT article

While police demands of documents are common on subways, highways and in public places in some countries, including France, Arizona is the first state to demand that immigrants meet federal requirements to carry identity documents legitimizing their presence on American soil.

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I think Arizona is just tired of the Feds not enforcing the law. Much of the bill echoes current federal legislation, except Arizona cannot deport illegals. So they will hand them over to the INS when they find them, and from the sounds of it, INS is not going to accept them. Carrying papers is already required.

i hate illegal immigration such a sticky topic. im not sure how you condone something with ILLEGAL in its name, dont know if this is the way to go about it though.

It came about because the Feds are hardly doing anything.

However, having police question people they suspect may be immigrants is a surefire way for discrimination and civil rights abuse.

CR

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

IDK, My parents nor my grandparents have these things.....Does this mean I have to go back to Europe? :sad:

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Does this mean if I ever visit Phoenix, that I'll get deported to Mexico? :anxious:

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Originally Posted by Subotan

Does this mean if I ever visit Phoenix, that I'll get deported to Mexico? :anxious:

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Depends on your accent. ~;) No, the State of Arizona cannot deport anyone.

This is currently the best documentary on how the Feds deal with illegals.

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

IDK, My parents nor my grandparents have these things.....Does this mean I have to go back to Europe? :sad:

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Well, you could carry your passport instead.

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

Well, you could carry your passport instead.

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Not to fear. Impending non-amnesty amnesty legislation at the federal level will take care of this.

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One Arizona congressman called for businesses to boycott his own state, and a Catholic cardinal said the state may be encouraging "German Nazi and Russian Communist techniques" as pushback against Arizona's proposed crackdown on illegal immigrants went into high gear Tuesday.

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How very irresponsible. They are testing the boundaries of what is still democratic. Shameless and dangerous. Sheer sedition. Treason.

:beam:

Good for Arizona. Too bad they can't dump them back over the border where they belong. How far we've sunk when both political parties are in paralysis out of fear of the Mexicans.... :no:

These people have no real understanding of how a civil society functions and it shows back home. Mexico can proudly boast of being the only non-first world nation in North America. They’ll become nothing more than Democratic block voters if they are given amnesty, and we already have one minority that specializes in that. :rolleyes:

Ver are ze papers?

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Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger

They’ll become nothing more than Democratic block voters if they are given amnesty, and we already have one minority that specializes in that. :rolleyes:

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Yes, it's the government's duty to prevent the influx of the French and other minority democratic block voters.

And strike, I've got a rusty, old boat nice sofa you can sleep on when they send you back here. :sweatdrop:

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Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger

Good for Arizona. Too bad they can't dump them back over the border where they belong. How far we've sunk when both political parties are in paralysis out of fear of the Mexicans.... :no:

These people have no real understanding of how a civil society functions and it shows back home. Mexico can proudly boast of being the only non-first world nation in North America. They’ll become nothing more than Democratic block voters if they are given amnesty, and we already have one minority that specializes in that. :rolleyes:

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Fear of the Mexicans? No it's more like taking a sledgehammer to a broken arm.

We need to attack the buisness that hire illegals and stop giving them social services that they don't pay into. Frankly I really don't care if they are here when they can't get a job and can't suck of the system. I guran got dang tee you they will leave in droves.

How this law will not alienate Arizonas sizeable latino pop is beyond me. ESP when it lends itself so eaisly to discrimination. Either check everyones papers or no ones papers

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

Well, you could carry your passport instead.

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I'm an American, I don't have one.

The only country worth visiting was Mexico and up until a little while ago you didn't need a passport for that.

Now I'm stuck paying market price for tequlia, perscription drugs, and donkey shows.

sounds alot like the ID-duty in europe where you must carry at all times your ID papers.

I'm gonna go ahead and provoke a Godwin by noting that it's a lot of fun to yell, "SHOW US YOUR PAPERS!" in a German accent. The louder you yell it, the more fun you're having.

Für Husar!


This German Nazi is America's future!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9gW45eVdBI

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Originally Posted by Lemur

I'm gonna go ahead and provoke a Godwin by noting that it's a lot of fun to yell, "SHOW US YOUR PAPERS!" in a German accent. The louder you yell it, the more fun you're having.

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See Strike's signature.

And thanks Louis! :laugh4:

1. Remove the jobs from the market -- no new laws required, just enforce existing. Needs people power.

2. Close the traffic in illegals across our border with Mexico -- needs new materials and people power.

3. De-criminalize drugs and tax it like any other import.

4. Inform Mexico that they are responsible for their citizens and their citizens general welfare. Farming out the responsibility and cost to us so as to obviate the need for Mexico to provide whatever support is deemed appropriate for their own citizens out of their own budget is no longer acceptable. If they want the rights and benefits of citizens of the USA, then they should petition for statehood (by regions).

5. Increase the number of legal immigrants.

6. Create a useful system for temporary work visas that doesn't require papal intercession to function quickly.


Arizona's law, however well intended, is likely to be too flawed in execution not to be struck down.

We already carry ID on us almost constantly.

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Originally Posted by drone

I think Arizona is just tired of the Feds not enforcing the law. Much of the bill echoes current federal legislation, except Arizona cannot deport illegals. So they will hand them over to the INS when they find them, and from the sounds of it, INS is not going to accept them. Carrying papers is already required.

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I think that's worth reiterating.
Carrying papers is already required.
As drone points out, much of this is already federal law- it's just mandating that state law enforcement enforces the law since the federal government seems unwilling or unable to do so.

As it was presented, there were some ominous sounding provisions in the bill- but once you look past the overheated rhetoric, it doesn't really seem to bad. I say let it play out.

Nothing in the bill warrants the "Nazi" "eugenic" and other vitrolic adjectives I've heard used here. But for the record, I agree with Strike: Cure the ill, not the symptom.

I'm in a new phase of political analysis these days. I shed my idealism very late in life (I'll be 40 sometime soon, and I've come to this unveiling in the past year). I finally accepted that all elected officials are salesman, and they frequently change product lines. This whole debate is about 1) Jon Kyl driving wedge issues in Arizona and 2) Harry Reid needs to get reelected. You have two guys vying for an office, and not necessarily the same one, you have "an issue". That's it. No principles, no real ideology. Just simple opportunism and reelection politics.

Politics in America today is best described by the Bard:

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Originally Posted by Billy S

........ it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

[About passports]

I'm an American, I don't have one.

The only country worth visiting was Mexico and up until a little while ago you didn't need a passport for that.

Now I'm stuck paying market price for tequlia, perscription drugs, and donkey shows.

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Would be fun if it wasnt so true. The % of americans having visited another country is... Diminutive to say the least.


About the Arizona immigration bill... I find it logical.

I think we have the same rule in Sweden. Of course, if you are white you wont be asked by the police to show your papers. And if you speak an OK swedish you wont either.

Basicly, this is just a tool to make it easier for the police to catch the REAL illegal immigrants... If legal immigrants have to have some paper with them, who cares? They choose to immigrate! If they dont like it, go back.

I do not quite understand the backlash... You think the police will randomly hold up some white mother of 3, ask for her papers, and if she cant show them they will send her to mexico? Or what?

Hehehe, I just received this email from a friend:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

You have two families: "Joe Legal" and "Jose Illegal".

Both families have two parents, two children, and live in California .

Joe Legal works in construction, has a Social Security Number and makes $25.00 per hour with taxes deducted.

Jose Illegal also works in construction, has NO Social Security Number, and gets paid $15.00 cash "under the table".

Ready? Now pay attention...

Joe Legal: $25.00 per hour x 40 hours = $1000.00 per week, or $52,000.00 per year. Now take 30% away for state and federal tax; Joe Legal now has $31,231.00.

Jose Illegal: $15.00 per hour x 40 hours = $600.00 per week, or $31,200.00 per year. Jose Illegal pays no taxes. Jose Illegal now has $31,200.00.

Joe Legal pays medical and dental insurance with limited coverage for his family at $600.00 per month, or $7,200.00 per year. Joe Legal now has $24,031.00.

Jose Illegal has full medical and dental coverage through the state and local clinics at a cost of $0.00 per year. Jose Illegal still has $31,200.00.

Joe Legal makes too much money and is not eligible for food stamps or welfare. Joe Legal pays $500.00 per month for food, or $6,000.00 per year. Joe Legal now has $18,031.00.

Jose Illegal has no documented income and is eligible for food stamps and welfare. Jose Illegal still has $31,200.00.

Joe Legal pays rent of $1,200.00 per month, or $14,400.00 per year. Joe Legal now has $9,631.00.

Jose Illegal receives a $500.00 per month federal rent subsidy. Jose Illegal pays out that $500.00 per month, or $6,000.00 per year. Jose Illegal still has $ 31,200.00.

Joe Legal pays $200.00 per month, or $2,400.00 for insurance. Joe Legal now has $7,231.00.

Jose Illegal says, "We don't need no stinkin' insurance!" and still has $31,200.00.

Joe Legal has to make his $7,231.00 stretch to pay utilities, gasoline, etc.

Jose Illegal has to make his $31,200.00 stretch to pay utilities, gasoline, and what he sends out of the country every month.

Joe Legal now works overtime on Saturdays or gets a part time job after work.

Jose Illegal has nights and weekends off to enjoy with his family.

Joe Legal's and Jose Illegal's children both attend the same school. Joe Legal pays for his children's lunches while Jose Illegal's children get a government sponsored lunch. Jose Illegal's children have an after school ESL program. Joe Legal's children go home.

Joe Legal and Jose Illegal both enjoy the same police and fire services, but Joe paid for them and Jose did not pay.

Do you get it, now?

If you vote for or support any politician that supports illegal aliens...





You are part of the problem!

It's way PAST time to take a stand for America and Americans!
What are you waiting for? Pass it on.

Illegal immigrants need to get in line and go through the same process as the legal ones. Seamus has some good ideas on stemming the tide, but unfortunately re-election politics gets in the way. Welcome back Don! I feel your cynicism.

I don't understand why screening and risk stratification are such taboo words. Medics do it all the time, as do vast number of other industries. We do it as it aids efficiency.

No one likes crime, but better the police randomly ask people if they did it than employ any methods that will target the greatest amount of crime with the least amount of resources in both time and money.

~:smoking:

S/Jon Kyl/J.D. Hayworth. Sorry for the confusion.

Why is the profiling a big deal? Because you're impeding the registration process of the new wing of the Democratic party. Seriously. There's no overriding principle here... illegal immigrants want the right to keep on breaking the law, and Democrats want them to be able to do so they can rack up their votes. It's that simple.

@Lemur thanks man, but I've been lurking. Just finished my masters finally. :-) And when did you get to be such a racist? :-p

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Originally Posted by Hosakawa Tito

I am a moderator who just got an email, and I will copy it here without any sources what so ever

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*golf clap*

Would you mind backing it up with some, say, evidence? Statistics? Articles?

Whatever that isnt a ctrl-c of a mass-sent spam mail?

Don't get me wrong, I am very much against immigration... However, that also means I am against STUPID arguments/people/proof not backed up by evidence against immigration, as it hurts my cause.

An extra golden star as it was a mod who posted the ****.

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Originally Posted by Strike

Fear of the Mexicans? No it's more like taking a sledgehammer to a broken arm.

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The Democrats are drooling over the prospect of amnesty and millions of new little Democratos. They would never do anything to jeopardize that, regardless of the damage it does to the country.

The Republicans understand that Hispanics are the fastest growing minority in the nation, and if they were to vote in block for the Democrats along with other minorities it would force the GOP into permanent minority status and regional power. They know amnesty is coming, so they think they have to fight for the Mexicans while placating their anti-immigration base. That equates to some minor rhetoric against immigration with no real action - witness the presidency of George W. Bush.

What the Republicans don't realize is that they've already lost the Mexicans, so they might as well take a stand for what's right and let the cards fall where they may. Maybe they can pick up more white voters as the Democrats increasingly pander to the minorities. As we've seen, our lovely leader doesn't have any qualms about injecting race into the political dialogue and pitting one ethnic group against another.

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Originally Posted by Politico

The Democratic National Committee this morning released this clip of the president rallying the troops, if rather coolly, for 2010. Obama's express goal: "reconnecting" with the voters who voted for the first time in 2008, but who may not plan to vote in the lower-profile Congressional elections this year.

Obama speaks with unusual demographic frankness about his coalition in his appeal to "young people, African-Americans, Latinos, and women who powered our victory in 2008 [to] stand together once again."

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So yes, everyone fears the Mexicans. They will be the game-changers in future elections.

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

*golf clap*

Would you mind backing it up with some, say, evidence? Statistics? Articles?

Whatever that isnt a ctrl-c of a mass-sent spam mail?

Don't get me wrong, I am very much against immigration... However, that also means I am against STUPID arguments/people/proof not backed up by evidence against immigration, as it hurts my cause.

An extra golden star as it was a mod who posted the ****.

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He wasn't writing a thesis, and I don't think he posted it as solid evidence of anything. It's just a hypothetical situation that highlights some of the inequalities in our system.

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

Why is the profiling a big deal? Because you're impeding the registration process of the new wing of the Democratic party. Seriously. There's no overriding principle here... illegal immigrants want the right to keep on breaking the law, and Democrats want them to be able to do so they can rack up their votes. It's that simple.

@Lemur thanks man, but I've been lurking. Just finished my masters finally. :-) And when did you get to be such a racist? :-p

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So its not because there are two types of hispanics, the legal and the illegal and that random fishing for the latter will result in harassment of the former?

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

*golf clap*

Would you mind backing it up with some, say, evidence? Statistics? Articles?

Whatever that isnt a ctrl-c of a mass-sent spam mail?

Don't get me wrong, I am very much against immigration... However, that also means I am against STUPID arguments/people/proof not backed up by evidence against immigration, as it hurts my cause.

An extra golden star as it was a mod who posted the ****.

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Settle down mate, the laughing at the start of the post clearly shows he didn't take it as a serious analysis. Further, Mods aren't held to any different standards as far as sourcing goes.

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Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger

said stuff.

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I know he wasnt writing a thesis. But still one would have hoped that spam-mail didnt work as discussion-material here. Or?

Following your logic, we would all have enhanced penises by now.

So why dont we get back to.... You know... Facts?

I have come to learn that facts is of no value in religious discussions, but can we PLEASE at least try to adhere to it when we talk about politics?

EDIT: This was in reply to the post before you edited it. Was a whole other content then.

And yes, I am very much aware that mods have no specific standards.

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

Would be fun if it wasnt so true. The % of americans having visited another country is... Diminutive to say the least.
[...]
Basicly, this is just a tool to make it easier for the police to catch the REAL illegal immigrants... If legal immigrants have to have some paper with them, who cares? They choose to immigrate! If they dont like it, go back.

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

So why dont we get back to.... You know... Facts?

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Sources please.

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Originally Posted by CountArach

Sources please.

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Not the best source in the world, but has a plentiful of links. Could also bother to link to very many more sites with pure numbers, but hey, from that site you should get the hang of it.

Did you also want a source of me claiming that the new law was just a tool to make it easier for police to do their job? Or why did you quote that part? What do you argue against here?














EDIT: NO, you can NOT count military personel off to make some sort of war (against drugs, or terrorism, or placebo), and you can NOT count pilots manning unmaned vechicles... Maybe in the US, but in Europe we don't really count that as "cultural exchance".

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

Not the best source in the world, but has a plentiful of links. Could also bother to link to very many more sites with pure numbers, but hey, from that site you should get the hang of it.

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Thank you :bow:

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

Did you also want a source of me claiming that the new law was just a tool to make it easier for police to do their job? Or why did you quote that part? What do you argue against here?

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That was a misreading of your post. I'm not arguing anything here, just pointing out the inherent problem with asking for sources from someone whilst making unsourced statements yourself.

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

@Lemur thanks man, but I've been lurking. Just finished my masters finally. :-) And when did you get to be such a racist? :-p

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Congrats on the Masters, good sir! Are you finally competent to explain volts, watts and ohms to me? As for my prejudice, it's a well-established fact that I believe Samoans are the master race.

Stumbled over another perspective on this Arizona/latino/show us your papers brouhaha. From what little I've been reading, it sure doesn't sound like there are any good guys in this situation.

What moved GOP Governor Jan Brewer to sign the Soviet-style show-me-your-papers law is the exploding number of legal Hispanics, US citizens all, who are daring to vote -- and daring to vote Democratic by more than two-to-one. Unless this demographic locomotive is halted, Arizona Republicans know their party will soon be electoral toast. [...]

Brewer, then Secretary of State, had organized a racially loaded purge of the voter rolls that would have made Katherine Harris blush. Beginning after the 2004 election, under Brewer's command, no less than 100,000 voters, overwhelmingly Hispanics, were blocked from registering to vote. In 2005, the first year of the Great Brown-Out, one in three Phoenix residents found their registration applications rejected.

That statistic caught my attention. Voting or registering to vote if you're not a citizen is a felony, a big-time jail-time crime. And arresting such criminal voters is easy: after all, they give their names and addresses.

So I asked Brewer's office, had she busted a single one of these thousands of allegedly illegal voters? Did she turn over even one name to the feds for prosecution?

No, not one.

The dude's rhetoric is a little over-the-top, but his hypothesis is solid.

Democrats and Catholics support Mexican immigration, both for obvious reasons of demographic gain.

Both also have commendable respect for the human dignity of the immigrant. 'Profiteering criminals' is not the whole story. Many illegals live in deprived circumstance. There is a regimen of racial profiling, paramilitary abuse of force by out-of-control Border Patrol agents, the denial of due process, limited access to legal protection, destruction of families through deportations. They suffer exploitation and abuse, simply for seeking a better life.

I am vehemently opposed to amnesties, nor particularly fond of runaway mass immigration, least of all for reasons of political paralysis and outright social engineering. Nevertheless, one is dealing with people. Dignity and equality must be always maintained, if some fraternity can be thrown in that would be great too. I must grudgingly admit it is the left and the Catholics who provide it. A priest does not ask for a green card before giving food or shelter to someone in need.

Racial profiling is demeaning, not so much for the illegal as for the legal immigrant. Raids on workplaces, controls of papers, police stops - these thing make me uncomfortable, they are not a sign of a civilised state, they perpetuate a state of fear for illegals, increasing their defenselessness against exploitation and abuse.

Gah! Difficult subject.

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Originally Posted by CountArach

the laughing at the start of the post clearly shows he didn't take it as a serious analysis.

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Can you back this statement up with a serious source, or do you only have one gaming site forum post as proof there was laughing?

"Civilised" is merely defined by the times. Generally the yardstick that is used is the dominant society at the moment. Victorian England would not be counted as civilised by many by the standards we have today. The feeling might well be mutual.
A Priest generally has different priorities to a nation state.

The risks are currently seen to be lesser than the rewards. Only when the trip is not seen as profitable will the flow decrease.

~:smoking:

DERKA DERP
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLni3wbndls&NR=1

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lemur

What moved GOP Governor Jan Brewer to sign the Soviet-style show-me-your-papers law is the exploding number of legal Hispanics, US citizens all, who are daring to vote -- and daring to vote Democratic by more than two-to-one. Unless this demographic locomotive is halted, Arizona Republicans know their party will soon be electoral toast. [...]

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Yep. The Republicans are already done in New Mexico and Arizona, Nevada, and Colorado will be next. The latter two are already swinging towards the Dems. Even more disheartening - if you're of right-wing leanings - is that Texas could be in jeopardy sooner rather than later, and even the solid South.

I predicted in a thread some time back that this new influx of minority votes would permanently damage the Republicans. The only hope is to capture more of the white vote, maybe by permanently peeling off the Reagan Democrats.

Perhaps the democrats, if they have a big majority, will move further to the left and push some of the moderates to the republicans.

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Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro

Perhaps the democrats, if they have a big majority, will move further to the left and push some of the moderates to the republicans.

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I don't know, but I think Strike made this thread as a treat for me; I've been crackin up the whole time. :laugh4:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

Would be fun if it wasnt so true. The % of americans having visited another country is... Diminutive to say the least.


About the Arizona immigration bill... I find it logical.

I think we have the same rule in Sweden. Of course, if you are white you wont be asked by the police to show your papers. And if you speak an OK swedish you wont either.

Basicly, this is just a tool to make it easier for the police to catch the REAL illegal immigrants... If legal immigrants have to have some paper with them, who cares? They choose to immigrate! If they dont like it, go back.

I do not quite understand the backlash... You think the police will randomly hold up some white mother of 3, ask for her papers, and if she cant show them they will send her to mexico? Or what?

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Looking white and speaking English are not Criteria for being an American, that's my exact problem with the bill it lends itself to discrimanation if you have a poor grasp of the english language or look like a poor Mexican.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger

The Democrats are drooling over the prospect of amnesty and millions of new little Democratos. They would never do anything to jeopardize that, regardless of the damage it does to the country.

The Republicans understand that Hispanics are the fastest growing minority in the nation, and if they were to vote in block for the Democrats along with other minorities it would force the GOP into permanent minority status and regional power. They know amnesty is coming, so they think they have to fight for the Mexicans while placating their anti-immigration base. That equates to some minor rhetoric against immigration with no real action - witness the presidency of George W. Bush.

What the Republicans don't realize is that they've already lost the Mexicans, so they might as well take a stand for what's right and let the cards fall where they may. Maybe they can pick up more white voters as the Democrats increasingly pander to the minorities. As we've seen, our lovely leader doesn't have any qualms about injecting race into the political dialogue and pitting one ethnic group against another.

One only needs to look at Texas And California to see that a conservative Mexican is alive and well in the States, I reject that narritive as I feel as more generations are born the more hispanics will break evenly.

By all social strata latins are already assimalating very quickly




So yes, everyone fears the Mexicans. They will be the game-changers in future elections.



He wasn't writing a thesis, and I don't think he posted it as solid evidence of anything. It's just a hypothetical situation that highlights some of the inequalities in our system.

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Maybe the republican party should not just ignore the needs of the new minorities that are nonetheless US citizens.
If it ignores a large part of the voters it shouldn't blame the voters for it's own downfall.

Or do you allow illegal immigrants to vote?

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Originally Posted by Husar

Or do you allow illegal immigrants to vote?

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Nope, illegal immigrants cannot vote under any circumstances, and despite prolonged investigations, no evidence has ever surfaced that they are a significant source of vote fraud. Electorally speaking, they're terra incognita.

The classic 'What's the worst that can happen?'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhEl6HdfqWM

Even comparing these 2 suituations is lunacy. Louie don't let the impressionable young minds get any ideas.

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

Even comparing these 2 suituations is lunacy.

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Why? Because you don't think Mexicans come from the moon?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

Even comparing these 2 suituations is lunacy. Louie don't let the impressionable young minds get any ideas.

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That's what the Tejanos thought back in 1848 too. 'A few Anglo immigrants are not going to change Texas....'

Welcome to the return of history. The US Southwest is currently being colonised as much as it was in the 19th century.

It's a stupid law, and should have never been passed.

I'll make this real simple. I don't like illegal immigrants, and if caught they should be deported. Plenty of people, including my great grandfather who fought in a world war so my family could have a better life, have immigrated to this country legally. The process is not easy, and often takes a great amount of money, time, and stress. People who bypass this process are cheating and should be punished.

That being said, all I think this law is going to do is increase racial profiling among LEGAL immigrants and people of Mexican descent. The police can say they won't do it, but something really stinks here.

I love Taco Bell. The chilli cheese barito is crack wrapped in a tortilla. Nest time you need some chow late at night after some hard drinking removed by moderator, get you a chilli chesse barrito and Jesus will love you and your nipples. Amen...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ice

It's a stupid law, and should have never been passed.

I'll make this real simple. I don't like illegal immigrants, and if caught they should be deported. Plenty of people, including my great grandfather who fought in a world war so my family could have a better life, have immigrated to this country legally. The process is not easy, and often takes a great amount of money, time, and stress. People who bypass this process are cheating and should be punished.

That being said, all I think this law is going to do is increase racial profiling among LEGAL immigrants and people of Mexican descent. The police can say they won't do it, but something really stinks here.

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Would you agree that racial profiling is only wrong if, say, statistics would not show huuuuuuuuuuge differences between races?

Or?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

Would you agree that racial profiling is only wrong if, say, statistics would not show huuuuuuuuuuge differences between races?

Or?

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Mexicans have more native blood than your average American, so they have more of a right to this continent anyways...

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Originally Posted by Megas Methuselah

Mexicans have more native blood than your average American, so they have more of a right to this continent anyways...

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So the natives never fought eachother before the arrival of the Europeans because they agreed that they all had a right to be there?

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

That's what the Tejanos thought back in 1848 too. 'A few Anglo immigrants are not going to change Texas....'

Welcome to the return of history. The US Southwest is currently being colonised as much as it was in the 19th century.

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Indeed. Aztlan is a dangerous concept for the US. This time, though, we have the resources to stop it. We just don't have the political will.

Aztlan sounds like pre-WW2 Europe concept of German Lebensraum.

What is more likely to happen, is that North America merges into one nation state instead of the current 3 seperate ones.

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Originally Posted by Beskar

Aztlan sounds like pre-WW2 Europe concept of German Lebensraum.

What is more likely to happen, is that North America merges into one nation state instead of the current 3 seperate ones.

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That will be a LONG time coming, if ever. Canada and the USA are drifting together on enough sociopolitical issues/outlooks where such a possibility (though remote) does exist. But the Canadians don't need to be part of the USA to be successful. Mexico is pretty much always in tight straights, and would benefit from such a union in a number of ways, but the cultural differences would make it even more difficult and less likely.

Final verdict = please don't hold your breath waiting for the USA to encompass the whole continent.

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

Final verdict = please don't hold your breath waiting for the USA to encompass the whole continent.

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Did someone say Manifest Destiny? :wink:

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Originally Posted by CountArach

Did someone say Manifest Destiny? :wink:

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It done been manifested already. We're from sea to shining sea, not from Yucatan peninsula to North Pole.

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

That's what the Tejanos thought back in 1848 too. 'A few Anglo immigrants are not going to change Texas....'

Welcome to the return of history. The US Southwest is currently being colonised as much as it was in the 19th century.

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Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger

Indeed. Aztlan is a dangerous concept for the US. This time, though, we have the resources to stop it. We just don't have the political will.

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You're average Mexican immagrant is about as concerend with aztlan as I am with kicking out all the Irish.

The vast majority of Mexicans I know hate Mexico and speak english to eachother and like anyone else they are to busy with there families and jobs to worry about a marganilized consparicy theory.

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

That will be a LONG time coming, if ever. Canada and the USA are drifting together on enough sociopolitical issues/outlooks where such a possibility (though remote) does exist. But the Canadians don't need to be part of the USA to be successful. Mexico is pretty much always in tight straights, and would benefit from such a union in a number of ways, but the cultural differences would make it even more difficult and less likely.

Final verdict = please don't hold your breath waiting for the USA to encompass the whole continent.

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True, but with NAFTA, you could see the beginnings of what happened with Europe, at first, Europe was a Free Trade Agreement.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_A...rade_Agreement

Then again, I am one of those which thinks the merging of nation states is a good thing, the quicker we get rid of nations, the better.

Better to be a migrant in the US than a migrant in Mexico:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100429/...ico_migrants_1

My favorite fact in the article:

At present, Article 67 of Mexico's Population Law says, "Authorities, whether federal, state or municipal ... are required to demand that foreigners prove their legal presence in the country, before attending to any issues."

Of course, NOW they are working to change it, when the mirror is shone back at them

Hey El-Tee, good to see you again!! All is well with you in teh 'Stan?

-edit-
Last night I saw an AZ State Senator on TV; he sent to Ms Napolitano (former Dem Gov of AZ, nowadays a Fed; Dir, Homeland Security) an invoice for a couple billion bucks for costs associated with housing, feeding, and/or incarcerating illegal immigrants - similar to the bill she sent to GW Bush a few years ago. Funny, I thought. :)

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

Would you agree that racial profiling is only wrong if, say, statistics would not show huuuuuuuuuuge differences between races?

Or?

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What?

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Mexicans have more native blood than your average American, so they have more of a right to this continent anyways...

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Why do the earlier immigrants always think they have a greater right than later immigrants?

CR

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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

Why do the earlier immigrants always think they have a greater right than later immigrants?

CR

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Do you think Mexicans jumping over the fence have the same rights as American citizens then? :gasp:

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Originally Posted by KukriKhan

Hey El-Tee, good to see you again!! All is well with you in teh 'Stan?

-edit-
Last night I saw an AZ State Senator on TV; he sent to Ms Napolitano (former Dem Gov of AZ, nowadays a Fed; Dir, Homeland Security) an invoice for a couple billion bucks for costs associated with housing, feeding, and/or incarcerating illegal immigrants - similar to the bill she sent to GW Bush a few years ago. Funny, I thought. :)

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Yeah, tis the start of my "weekend", which consists of 3 hrs off on Friday so I get to stay up late on thursday and be a bad boy on the internet.

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Originally Posted by Beskar

Do you think Mexicans jumping over the fence have the same rights as American citizens then? :gasp:

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Of course not.

The Native Americans/Amerinds/First Peoples were not barred by any legal entity or custom from emigrating to the Americas. By boat and/or Ice Bridge they came and settled.

The Euro-colonials were not barred by any legal entity or custom (N.A. not having such a codified system as had Europe) and were not effectively enough opposed by the then-owners. Other subsequent immigrant groups came over legally (mostly) according to the rules and regulations then extent.

Illegals crossing the border without following the established laws/procedures are -- however understandably on a familial/economic level -- committing a crime by entering the country illegally. It's just not the same thing.

My favorite Republican makes a good case for the Arizona law. As per usual, he makes very solid arguments.

The experience of the past two years has shown that migration responds swiftly to changing incentives. The Center for Immigration Studies has tracked monthly census data for young Hispanic males with low levels of education—a good proxy for the illegal immigrant population. Between the summer of 2007 and the first quarter of 2009, that population actually declined. Extrapolating from survey figures, CIS estimates that the illegal population in the U.S. dropped by 1.7 million during the recession. The number of illegals entering the country fell by about one-third while the number returning home doubled .

States and counties that have strengthened enforcement have seen declines in the population of non-English-speaking students in local schools (another good proxy for the illegal immigrant population).

Arizona’s law seeks a similar effect. It’s no substitute for federal enforcement. But it’s a big improvement over all the loose talk of amnesty.

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

Of course not.

The Native Americans/Amerinds/First Peoples were not barred by any legal entity or custom from emigrating to the Americas. By boat and/or Ice Bridge they came and settled.

The Euro-colonials were not barred by any legal entity or custom (N.A. not having such a codified system as had Europe) and were not effectively enough opposed by the then-owners. Other subsequent immigrant groups came over legally (mostly) according to the rules and regulations then extent.

Illegals crossing the border without following the established laws/procedures are -- however understandably on a familial/economic level -- committing a crime by entering the country illegally. It's just not the same thing.

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So as long as you follow rules, it is ok?

Legal immigrants are welcome as far as I'm concerned. However, those who are here illegally are breaking the law. Those who are employing them, supporting/abetting them, family included, are also breaking the law, and I don't care what ethinicity they are. It's not fair to the immigrants that follow the rules, nor those that pay social security & medicare/medicaid taxes. There should be a requirement to show proof of legal residency/citizenship via a social security number to collect any social services or apply for a job. A one year state residency requirement, and finger-printing for social services would go a long way to reduce the abuse of those benefits by those who don't legally deserve them.

A legal immigrant from Mexico living in Arizona speaks at a city council meeting in support of the law.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShkpO9Rf1bo&feature=player_embedded

CR

Ever wonder how Mexico deals with illegal immigration?

Ironic, no? Especially considering this hypocrisy.

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Originally Posted by Hosakawa Tito

Ever wonder how Mexico deals with illegal immigration?

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Ever wonder how North Korea treats it's citizens? You can still get a lot worse, as long as you stop just short of that you're still better! Isn't that great?

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Originally Posted by Beskar

So as long as you follow rules, it is ok?

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I have no objection to legal immigrants who come to my country according the the established procedures. In fact, I think we need more than current quotas allow.

It's easy to understand why many in Mexico choose to flout US law on this. The economic incentive is powerful and our lax enforcement of existing laws doesn't exactly serve as a deterrent.

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Originally Posted by Husar

Ever wonder how North Korea treats it's citizens? You can still get a lot worse, as long as you stop just short of that you're still better! Isn't that great?

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Strawman

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Originally Posted by Husar

Ever wonder how North Korea treats it's citizens? You can still get a lot worse, as long as you stop just short of that you're still better! Isn't that great?

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Huh? Hosa tossed that out to show the inherent hypocrisy of the Mexican government's position on illegal Mexican immigration to the USA. He was NOT arguing that the USA could or should be even meaner to illegal immigrants and others would have to tolerate it.

Numerous people have asserted that the US position on illegal immigration is inherently hypocritical as it is our businesses that are providing the jobs these illegals hop the border to obtain -- and that's a fair criticism. Hosa's is just the reverse of the coin.

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

I have no objection to legal immigrants who come to my country according the the established procedures. In fact, I think we need more than current quotas allow.

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Woulod you support an increase in child allowance, subsidised education, parental leave and other governement incentives to raise birth rates?

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

You're average Mexican immagrant is about as concerend with aztlan as I am with kicking out all the Irish.

The vast majority of Mexicans I know hate Mexico and speak english to eachother and like anyone else they are to busy with there families and jobs to worry about a marganilized consparicy theory.

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Aztlan, meh.


A sense of reconquista? Why, it's not absent. Mexican kids learn in school how America stole half their country. Never underestimate Old World nationalist pettiness. 'Old World', in this case, meaning planet Earth minus the USA.

Check out the UK election thread. A UK woman, of part Irish immigrant ancestry herself, complained about East European immigration to Gordon Brown. Afterwards, Brown called her, in private, but with an open microphone, a 'bigoted woman'. By US standards, she IS a bigoted woman. Imagine an Irish-American complaining about Polish immigrants in the US. In America, a president would lose an election if he would not publicly speak out against it as bigotry. In the UK, not even the leftwing candidate is supposed to consider it bigotry. Brown has lost his PM by it, the public sides against Brown, the thought this woman should be bigoted is considered an insult, a sign of Brown being out-of-touch with public sentiment, a betrayal to the working class white Britons he's supposed to represent as the leftwing candidate.

Me being a petty Old Worlder myself, I must admit I do find it odd that, should I live to a ripe old age, by the time I die there will be nearly as many Hispanic Americans as Non-Hispanic White Americans. I need to get used to that. :embarassed:


Never underestimate demographics. One lifetime ago, there were twenty million Mexicans worldwide. Eighty years onwards, at the moment, there are thirty million Mexicans in the US, and 110 in Mexico.

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

Woulod you support an increase in child allowance, subsidised education, parental leave and other governement incentives to raise birth rates?

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Whatever the government of a given state chooses to provide on these issues is between them and their voters -- I'd have no objection. The federal government shouldn't be involved in any of those issues. I want my governance as local as possible and decisions on those issues would seem to be directly relevant to a states' "competitiveness" in the market place.

I'd like to see more legal immigration because I think we can assimilate more folks than we do -- and because illegal immigration intensifies all of the negative aspects of the ghetto/barrio and does NOT aid assimilation.