SB 1070 Or The Arizona Immigration Bill

[Beskar]

That will be a LONG time coming, if ever. Canada and the USA are drifting together on enough sociopolitical issues/outlooks where such a possibility (though remote) does exist. But the Canadians don't need to be part of the USA to be successful. Mexico is pretty much always in tight straights, and would benefit from such a union in a number of ways, but the cultural differences would make it even more difficult and less likely.

Final verdict = please don't hold your breath waiting for the USA to encompass the whole continent.

True, but with NAFTA, you could see the beginnings of what happened with Europe, at first, Europe was a Free Trade Agreement.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_A...rade_Agreement

Then again, I am one of those which thinks the merging of nation states is a good thing, the quicker we get rid of nations, the better.

[Major Robert Dump]

Better to be a migrant in the US than a migrant in Mexico:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100429/...ico_migrants_1

My favorite fact in the article:

At present, Article 67 of Mexico's Population Law says, "Authorities, whether federal, state or municipal ... are required to demand that foreigners prove their legal presence in the country, before attending to any issues."

Of course, NOW they are working to change it, when the mirror is shone back at them

[KukriKhan]

Hey El-Tee, good to see you again!! All is well with you in teh 'Stan?

-edit-
Last night I saw an AZ State Senator on TV; he sent to Ms Napolitano (former Dem Gov of AZ, nowadays a Fed; Dir, Homeland Security) an invoice for a couple billion bucks for costs associated with housing, feeding, and/or incarcerating illegal immigrants - similar to the bill she sent to GW Bush a few years ago. Funny, I thought. :)

[Ice]

Would you agree that racial profiling is only wrong if, say, statistics would not show huuuuuuuuuuge differences between races?

Or?

What?

[Crazed Rabbit]

Mexicans have more native blood than your average American, so they have more of a right to this continent anyways...

Why do the earlier immigrants always think they have a greater right than later immigrants?

CR

[Beskar]

Why do the earlier immigrants always think they have a greater right than later immigrants?

CR

Do you think Mexicans jumping over the fence have the same rights as American citizens then? :gasp:

[Major Robert Dump]

Hey El-Tee, good to see you again!! All is well with you in teh 'Stan?

-edit-
Last night I saw an AZ State Senator on TV; he sent to Ms Napolitano (former Dem Gov of AZ, nowadays a Fed; Dir, Homeland Security) an invoice for a couple billion bucks for costs associated with housing, feeding, and/or incarcerating illegal immigrants - similar to the bill she sent to GW Bush a few years ago. Funny, I thought. :)

Yeah, tis the start of my "weekend", which consists of 3 hrs off on Friday so I get to stay up late on thursday and be a bad boy on the internet.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Do you think Mexicans jumping over the fence have the same rights as American citizens then? :gasp:

Of course not.

The Native Americans/Amerinds/First Peoples were not barred by any legal entity or custom from emigrating to the Americas. By boat and/or Ice Bridge they came and settled.

The Euro-colonials were not barred by any legal entity or custom (N.A. not having such a codified system as had Europe) and were not effectively enough opposed by the then-owners. Other subsequent immigrant groups came over legally (mostly) according to the rules and regulations then extent.

Illegals crossing the border without following the established laws/procedures are -- however understandably on a familial/economic level -- committing a crime by entering the country illegally. It's just not the same thing.

[Lemur]

My favorite Republican makes a good case for the Arizona law. As per usual, he makes very solid arguments.

The experience of the past two years has shown that migration responds swiftly to changing incentives. The Center for Immigration Studies has tracked monthly census data for young Hispanic males with low levels of education—a good proxy for the illegal immigrant population. Between the summer of 2007 and the first quarter of 2009, that population actually declined. Extrapolating from survey figures, CIS estimates that the illegal population in the U.S. dropped by 1.7 million during the recession. The number of illegals entering the country fell by about one-third while the number returning home doubled .

States and counties that have strengthened enforcement have seen declines in the population of non-English-speaking students in local schools (another good proxy for the illegal immigrant population).

Arizona’s law seeks a similar effect. It’s no substitute for federal enforcement. But it’s a big improvement over all the loose talk of amnesty.

[Beskar]

Of course not.

The Native Americans/Amerinds/First Peoples were not barred by any legal entity or custom from emigrating to the Americas. By boat and/or Ice Bridge they came and settled.

The Euro-colonials were not barred by any legal entity or custom (N.A. not having such a codified system as had Europe) and were not effectively enough opposed by the then-owners. Other subsequent immigrant groups came over legally (mostly) according to the rules and regulations then extent.

Illegals crossing the border without following the established laws/procedures are -- however understandably on a familial/economic level -- committing a crime by entering the country illegally. It's just not the same thing.

So as long as you follow rules, it is ok?

[Hosakawa Tito]

Legal immigrants are welcome as far as I'm concerned. However, those who are here illegally are breaking the law. Those who are employing them, supporting/abetting them, family included, are also breaking the law, and I don't care what ethinicity they are. It's not fair to the immigrants that follow the rules, nor those that pay social security & medicare/medicaid taxes. There should be a requirement to show proof of legal residency/citizenship via a social security number to collect any social services or apply for a job. A one year state residency requirement, and finger-printing for social services would go a long way to reduce the abuse of those benefits by those who don't legally deserve them.

[Crazed Rabbit]

A legal immigrant from Mexico living in Arizona speaks at a city council meeting in support of the law.



CR

[Hosakawa Tito]

Ever wonder how Mexico deals with illegal immigration?

Ironic, no? Especially considering this hypocrisy.

[Husar]

Ever wonder how Mexico deals with illegal immigration?

Ever wonder how North Korea treats it's citizens? You can still get a lot worse, as long as you stop just short of that you're still better! Isn't that great?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

So as long as you follow rules, it is ok?

I have no objection to legal immigrants who come to my country according the the established procedures. In fact, I think we need more than current quotas allow.

It's easy to understand why many in Mexico choose to flout US law on this. The economic incentive is powerful and our lax enforcement of existing laws doesn't exactly serve as a deterrent.

[Strike For The South]

Ever wonder how North Korea treats it's citizens? You can still get a lot worse, as long as you stop just short of that you're still better! Isn't that great?

Strawman

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Ever wonder how North Korea treats it's citizens? You can still get a lot worse, as long as you stop just short of that you're still better! Isn't that great?

Huh? Hosa tossed that out to show the inherent hypocrisy of the Mexican government's position on illegal Mexican immigration to the USA. He was NOT arguing that the USA could or should be even meaner to illegal immigrants and others would have to tolerate it.

Numerous people have asserted that the US position on illegal immigration is inherently hypocritical as it is our businesses that are providing the jobs these illegals hop the border to obtain -- and that's a fair criticism. Hosa's is just the reverse of the coin.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I have no objection to legal immigrants who come to my country according the the established procedures. In fact, I think we need more than current quotas allow.

Woulod you support an increase in child allowance, subsidised education, parental leave and other governement incentives to raise birth rates?

[Louis VI the Fat]

You're average Mexican immagrant is about as concerend with aztlan as I am with kicking out all the Irish.

The vast majority of Mexicans I know hate Mexico and speak english to eachother and like anyone else they are to busy with there families and jobs to worry about a marganilized consparicy theory.

Aztlan, meh.


A sense of reconquista? Why, it's not absent. Mexican kids learn in school how America stole half their country. Never underestimate Old World nationalist pettiness. 'Old World', in this case, meaning planet Earth minus the USA.

Check out the UK election thread. A UK woman, of part Irish immigrant ancestry herself, complained about East European immigration to Gordon Brown. Afterwards, Brown called her, in private, but with an open microphone, a 'bigoted woman'. By US standards, she IS a bigoted woman. Imagine an Irish-American complaining about Polish immigrants in the US. In America, a president would lose an election if he would not publicly speak out against it as bigotry. In the UK, not even the leftwing candidate is supposed to consider it bigotry. Brown has lost his PM by it, the public sides against Brown, the thought this woman should be bigoted is considered an insult, a sign of Brown being out-of-touch with public sentiment, a betrayal to the working class white Britons he's supposed to represent as the leftwing candidate.

Me being a petty Old Worlder myself, I must admit I do find it odd that, should I live to a ripe old age, by the time I die there will be nearly as many Hispanic Americans as Non-Hispanic White Americans. I need to get used to that.


Never underestimate demographics. One lifetime ago, there were twenty million Mexicans worldwide. Eighty years onwards, at the moment, there are thirty million Mexicans in the US, and 110 in Mexico.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Woulod you support an increase in child allowance, subsidised education, parental leave and other governement incentives to raise birth rates?

Whatever the government of a given state chooses to provide on these issues is between them and their voters -- I'd have no objection. The federal government shouldn't be involved in any of those issues. I want my governance as local as possible and decisions on those issues would seem to be directly relevant to a states' "competitiveness" in the market place.

I'd like to see more legal immigration because I think we can assimilate more folks than we do -- and because illegal immigration intensifies all of the negative aspects of the ghetto/barrio and does NOT aid assimilation.

[Strike For The South]

Aztlan, meh.


A sense of reconquista? Why, it's not absent. Mexican kids learn in school how America stole half their country. Never underestimate Old World nationalist pettiness. 'Old World', in this case, meaning planet Earth minus the USA.

Check out the UK election thread. A UK woman, of part Irish immigrant ancestry herself, complained about East European immigration to Gordon Brown. Afterwards, Brown called her, in private, but with an open microphone, a 'bigoted woman'. By US standards, she IS a bigoted woman. Imagine an Irish-American complaining about Polish immigrants in the US. In America, a president would lose an election if he would not publicly speak out against it as bigotry. In the UK, not even the leftwing candidate is supposed to consider it bigotry. Brown has lost his PM by it, the public sides against Brown, the thought this woman should be bigoted is considered an insult, a sign of Brown being out-of-touch with public sentiment, a betrayal to the working class white Britons he's supposed to represent as the leftwing candidate.

Me being a petty Old Worlder myself, I must admit I do find it odd that, should I live to a ripe old age, by the time I die there will be nearly as many Hispanic Americans as Non-Hispanic White Americans. I need to get used to that.


Never underestimate demographics. One lifetime ago, there were twenty million Mexicans worldwide. Eighty years onwards, at the moment, there are thirty million Mexicans in the US, and 110 in Mexico.

Well my response to you would be to quite simply get over it.

My 2nd response is that woman is a bigot.

Those hispanics will be just the same Americans provided the "old style" Americans have done there jobs and shown them that America is truly special and its ideas should be embraced.

I am basicaly an old style WASP, my great x10 grandad fought with the Brits angainst the French and then against them in Washingtons contenintal army.

So throught the years my family has seen many different people of many different skin tones of many different faiths come onto our shores and America is still here. It is still here because my family passed on America to them.

That is what is getting lost in this debate, America is not an ethnicty or a race and it belongs to no one. America is an idea. America is the anti thesis of everything that old english women is.

I don't care if there are only hispanics here because I know if we have done our jobs America the idea will live on and that's good enough for me.

[Husar]

Huh? Hosa tossed that out to show the inherent hypocrisy of the Mexican government's position on illegal Mexican immigration to the USA. He was NOT arguing that the USA could or should be even meaner to illegal immigrants and others would have to tolerate it.

Numerous people have asserted that the US position on illegal immigration is inherently hypocritical as it is our businesses that are providing the jobs these illegals hop the border to obtain -- and that's a fair criticism. Hosa's is just the reverse of the coin.

Well, oops, I misunderstood, sorry Hosa.

[ICantSpellDawg]

This country needs immigration more than anything else. We need to be careful not to confuse a legitimate desire to register everyone and bring in talent with pure xenophobia. I say give all illegals visas for temporary work status if they register within a 6 month period. It's better to have illegals registered in the U.S. than not at all.

The Arizona bill is probably unconstitutional, but it's bringing up a good debate that needed to take place - borders are not fluid, but out nation was built on immigration. Most reasonable people realize these two things, so lets build on that.

[Hosakawa Tito]

Well, oops, I misunderstood, sorry Hosa.

It was nada, I should have explained my position more clearly.

An opinion piece in the Washington Times: Bigotry label for thee, not me.

To the coastal commentariat, "undocumented immigrants" are the people who mow your lawn while you're at work and clean your office while you're at home. (That, for the benefit of The New York Times' Linda Greenhouse, is the real apartheid: the acceptance of a permanent "undocumented" servant class by far too many "documented" Americans who assuage their guilt by pathetic sentimentalization of immigration.)

A lot of truth in this comment. Many illegals work for cash, at cut rate prices, so that their employer doesn't have to pay bothersome social security taxes, unemployment benefit taxes etc... It's like a shadow economy akin to what goes on in Greece.

Almost every claim made for the benefits of mass immigration is false. Europeans were told that they needed immigrants to help prop up their otherwise unaffordable social entitlements: In reality, Turks in Germany have three times the rate of welfare dependency as ethnic Germans, and their average retirement age is 50. Two-thirds of French imams are on the dole.

How close to the mark this comment hits I don't know, but I know we have members who might. Louis ? Husar ?

As has been said, there is a real need to formulate a better immigration policy. I applaud Arizona for forcing the Feds to address this, it's way overdue.

[Megas Methuselah]

The Euro-colonials were not barred by any legal entity or custom (N.A. not having such a codified system as had Europe) and were not effectively enough opposed by the then-owners.

HA... HA... HA.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

HA... HA... HA.

Well, the legality of the conquest of the New World was entirely correct....in the eyes of the conquerors. I freely admit that those persons living in the Americas prior to 1492 might have a different view as to that legality, as will/would many of their direct descendents no doubt.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Establish a massive scale guest worker program, tell them that any worker who wants work can sign up and register and will be provided free access to come and go into and out the US without trouble and minimum wage so their low socio economic status is removed from the equation (hilarious I know, since the minimum wage hasnt been increased since 97 because republicans dont believe in inflation). At least it will keep track of the problem in terms of numbers and will work against drug cartels throwing immigrants in harms way by using them as drug mules.

[Tuuvi]

I believe the best way to solve the illegal immigration is to make it easier for people to come here legally. I'm pretty sure the majority of people who came here illegally would have happily came over legally if they had been able to do so. I've heard that immigrating to the U.S. can be an expensive, bureaucratic nightmare. Not something that your average illegal immigrant is very capable of.

Establish a massive scale guest worker program, tell them that any worker who wants work can sign up and register and will be provided free access to come and go into and out the US without trouble and minimum wage so their low socio economic status is removed from the equation (hilarious I know, since the minimum wage hasnt been increased since 97 because republicans dont believe in inflation). At least it will keep track of the problem in terms of numbers and will work against drug cartels throwing immigrants in harms way by using them as drug mules.

Wasn't the minimum wage raised to 7.25 just last year?

[Lemur]

So apparently the interest group that drafted the bill, and which is helping draft others in four southern states, has some creepy connections.

IRLI's website says it fights to protect the "legal rights, privileges, and property of U.S. citizens and their communities from injuries and damages caused by unlawful immigration." It is affiliated with a group called the Federation for American Immigration Immigration Reform (FAIR). Advocacy group The Southern Poverty Law Center, which tracks domestic hate groups, is unambiguous in labelling FAIR racist and dangerous. An investigation in 2007 revealed that:

The founder, chief ideologue and long-time funder of FAIR [John Tanton] is a racist. Key staff members have ties to white supremacist groups, some are members, and some have spoken at hate group functions. FAIR has accepted more than $1 million from a racist foundation devoted to studies of race and IQ, and to eugenics - the pseudo-science of breeding a better human race that was utterly discredited by the Nazi euthanasia program. It spreads racist conspiracy theories.

The group has also consulted with Vlaams Belang, a racist Belgian political party that used to be called Vlaams Block. Until the Belgian Supreme court banned it under that name for xenophobia. Which might explain why, according to Think Progress again, FAIR's legal arm, IRLI, has been behind some of the most racist-seeming pieces of legislation on the books. It charges $300 per hour to train Sheriff Joe Arpaio's men, who make sweeps for illegal immigrants, on immigration law.

All a bit hysterical, but it bears closer examination, certainly.

[drone]

The first paragraph in that article hurts it's overall veracity.

On a side note, I would have guessed LaRouche was involved.