SB 1070 Or The Arizona Immigration Bill

[CountArach]

*golf clap*

Would you mind backing it up with some, say, evidence? Statistics? Articles?

Whatever that isnt a ctrl-c of a mass-sent spam mail?

Don't get me wrong, I am very much against immigration... However, that also means I am against STUPID arguments/people/proof not backed up by evidence against immigration, as it hurts my cause.

An extra golden star as it was a mod who posted the ****.

Settle down mate, the laughing at the start of the post clearly shows he didn't take it as a serious analysis. Further, Mods aren't held to any different standards as far as sourcing goes.

[Kadagar_AV]

said stuff.

I know he wasnt writing a thesis. But still one would have hoped that spam-mail didnt work as discussion-material here. Or?

Following your logic, we would all have enhanced penises by now.

So why dont we get back to.... You know... Facts?

I have come to learn that facts is of no value in religious discussions, but can we PLEASE at least try to adhere to it when we talk about politics?

EDIT: This was in reply to the post before you edited it. Was a whole other content then.

And yes, I am very much aware that mods have no specific standards.

[CountArach]

Would be fun if it wasnt so true. The % of americans having visited another country is... Diminutive to say the least.
[...]
Basicly, this is just a tool to make it easier for the police to catch the REAL illegal immigrants... If legal immigrants have to have some paper with them, who cares? They choose to immigrate! If they dont like it, go back.

So why dont we get back to.... You know... Facts?

Sources please.

[Kadagar_AV]

Sources please.

Not the best source in the world, but has a plentiful of links. Could also bother to link to very many more sites with pure numbers, but hey, from that site you should get the hang of it.

Did you also want a source of me claiming that the new law was just a tool to make it easier for police to do their job? Or why did you quote that part? What do you argue against here?














EDIT: NO, you can NOT count military personel off to make some sort of war (against drugs, or terrorism, or placebo), and you can NOT count pilots manning unmaned vechicles... Maybe in the US, but in Europe we don't really count that as "cultural exchance".

[CountArach]

Not the best source in the world, but has a plentiful of links. Could also bother to link to very many more sites with pure numbers, but hey, from that site you should get the hang of it.

Thank you

Did you also want a source of me claiming that the new law was just a tool to make it easier for police to do their job? Or why did you quote that part? What do you argue against here?

That was a misreading of your post. I'm not arguing anything here, just pointing out the inherent problem with asking for sources from someone whilst making unsourced statements yourself.

[Lemur]

@Lemur thanks man, but I've been lurking. Just finished my masters finally. :-) And when did you get to be such a racist? :-p

Congrats on the Masters, good sir! Are you finally competent to explain volts, watts and ohms to me? As for my prejudice, it's a well-established fact that I believe Samoans are the master race.

Stumbled over another perspective on this Arizona/latino/show us your papers brouhaha. From what little I've been reading, it sure doesn't sound like there are any good guys in this situation.

What moved GOP Governor Jan Brewer to sign the Soviet-style show-me-your-papers law is the exploding number of legal Hispanics, US citizens all, who are daring to vote -- and daring to vote Democratic by more than two-to-one. Unless this demographic locomotive is halted, Arizona Republicans know their party will soon be electoral toast. [...]

Brewer, then Secretary of State, had organized a racially loaded purge of the voter rolls that would have made Katherine Harris blush. Beginning after the 2004 election, under Brewer's command, no less than 100,000 voters, overwhelmingly Hispanics, were blocked from registering to vote. In 2005, the first year of the Great Brown-Out, one in three Phoenix residents found their registration applications rejected.

That statistic caught my attention. Voting or registering to vote if you're not a citizen is a felony, a big-time jail-time crime. And arresting such criminal voters is easy: after all, they give their names and addresses.

So I asked Brewer's office, had she busted a single one of these thousands of allegedly illegal voters? Did she turn over even one name to the feds for prosecution?

No, not one.

The dude's rhetoric is a little over-the-top, but his hypothesis is solid.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Democrats and Catholics support Mexican immigration, both for obvious reasons of demographic gain.

Both also have commendable respect for the human dignity of the immigrant. 'Profiteering criminals' is not the whole story. Many illegals live in deprived circumstance. There is a regimen of racial profiling, paramilitary abuse of force by out-of-control Border Patrol agents, the denial of due process, limited access to legal protection, destruction of families through deportations. They suffer exploitation and abuse, simply for seeking a better life.

I am vehemently opposed to amnesties, nor particularly fond of runaway mass immigration, least of all for reasons of political paralysis and outright social engineering. Nevertheless, one is dealing with people. Dignity and equality must be always maintained, if some fraternity can be thrown in that would be great too. I must grudgingly admit it is the left and the Catholics who provide it. A priest does not ask for a green card before giving food or shelter to someone in need.

Racial profiling is demeaning, not so much for the illegal as for the legal immigrant. Raids on workplaces, controls of papers, police stops - these thing make me uncomfortable, they are not a sign of a civilised state, they perpetuate a state of fear for illegals, increasing their defenselessness against exploitation and abuse.

Gah! Difficult subject.

the laughing at the start of the post clearly shows he didn't take it as a serious analysis.

Can you back this statement up with a serious source, or do you only have one gaming site forum post as proof there was laughing?

[rory_20_uk]

"Civilised" is merely defined by the times. Generally the yardstick that is used is the dominant society at the moment. Victorian England would not be counted as civilised by many by the standards we have today. The feeling might well be mutual.
A Priest generally has different priorities to a nation state.

The risks are currently seen to be lesser than the rewards. Only when the trip is not seen as profitable will the flow decrease.

[Subotan]

DERKA DERP

[PanzerJaeger]

What moved GOP Governor Jan Brewer to sign the Soviet-style show-me-your-papers law is the exploding number of legal Hispanics, US citizens all, who are daring to vote -- and daring to vote Democratic by more than two-to-one. Unless this demographic locomotive is halted, Arizona Republicans know their party will soon be electoral toast. [...]

Yep. The Republicans are already done in New Mexico and Arizona, Nevada, and Colorado will be next. The latter two are already swinging towards the Dems. Even more disheartening - if you're of right-wing leanings - is that Texas could be in jeopardy sooner rather than later, and even the solid South.

I predicted in a thread some time back that this new influx of minority votes would permanently damage the Republicans. The only hope is to capture more of the white vote, maybe by permanently peeling off the Reagan Democrats.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Perhaps the democrats, if they have a big majority, will move further to the left and push some of the moderates to the republicans.

[Megas Methuselah]

Perhaps the democrats, if they have a big majority, will move further to the left and push some of the moderates to the republicans.

I don't know, but I think Strike made this thread as a treat for me; I've been crackin up the whole time.

[Strike For The South]

Would be fun if it wasnt so true. The % of americans having visited another country is... Diminutive to say the least.


About the Arizona immigration bill... I find it logical.

I think we have the same rule in Sweden. Of course, if you are white you wont be asked by the police to show your papers. And if you speak an OK swedish you wont either.

Basicly, this is just a tool to make it easier for the police to catch the REAL illegal immigrants... If legal immigrants have to have some paper with them, who cares? They choose to immigrate! If they dont like it, go back.

I do not quite understand the backlash... You think the police will randomly hold up some white mother of 3, ask for her papers, and if she cant show them they will send her to mexico? Or what?

Looking white and speaking English are not Criteria for being an American, that's my exact problem with the bill it lends itself to discrimanation if you have a poor grasp of the english language or look like a poor Mexican.

The Democrats are drooling over the prospect of amnesty and millions of new little Democratos. They would never do anything to jeopardize that, regardless of the damage it does to the country.

The Republicans understand that Hispanics are the fastest growing minority in the nation, and if they were to vote in block for the Democrats along with other minorities it would force the GOP into permanent minority status and regional power. They know amnesty is coming, so they think they have to fight for the Mexicans while placating their anti-immigration base. That equates to some minor rhetoric against immigration with no real action - witness the presidency of George W. Bush.

What the Republicans don't realize is that they've already lost the Mexicans, so they might as well take a stand for what's right and let the cards fall where they may. Maybe they can pick up more white voters as the Democrats increasingly pander to the minorities. As we've seen, our lovely leader doesn't have any qualms about injecting race into the political dialogue and pitting one ethnic group against another.

One only needs to look at Texas And California to see that a conservative Mexican is alive and well in the States, I reject that narritive as I feel as more generations are born the more hispanics will break evenly.

By all social strata latins are already assimalating very quickly




So yes, everyone fears the Mexicans. They will be the game-changers in future elections.



He wasn't writing a thesis, and I don't think he posted it as solid evidence of anything. It's just a hypothetical situation that highlights some of the inequalities in our system.

[Husar]

Maybe the republican party should not just ignore the needs of the new minorities that are nonetheless US citizens.
If it ignores a large part of the voters it shouldn't blame the voters for it's own downfall.

Or do you allow illegal immigrants to vote?

[Lemur]

Or do you allow illegal immigrants to vote?

Nope, illegal immigrants cannot vote under any circumstances, and despite prolonged investigations, no evidence has ever surfaced that they are a significant source of vote fraud. Electorally speaking, they're terra incognita.

[Louis VI the Fat]

The classic 'What's the worst that can happen?'

[Strike For The South]

Even comparing these 2 suituations is lunacy. Louie don't let the impressionable young minds get any ideas.

[Husar]

Even comparing these 2 suituations is lunacy.

Why? Because you don't think Mexicans come from the moon?

[Louis VI the Fat]

Even comparing these 2 suituations is lunacy. Louie don't let the impressionable young minds get any ideas.

That's what the Tejanos thought back in 1848 too. 'A few Anglo immigrants are not going to change Texas....'

Welcome to the return of history. The US Southwest is currently being colonised as much as it was in the 19th century.

[Ice]

It's a stupid law, and should have never been passed.

I'll make this real simple. I don't like illegal immigrants, and if caught they should be deported. Plenty of people, including my great grandfather who fought in a world war so my family could have a better life, have immigrated to this country legally. The process is not easy, and often takes a great amount of money, time, and stress. People who bypass this process are cheating and should be punished.

That being said, all I think this law is going to do is increase racial profiling among LEGAL immigrants and people of Mexican descent. The police can say they won't do it, but something really stinks here.

[Devastatin Dave]

I love Taco Bell. The chilli cheese barito is crack wrapped in a tortilla. Nest time you need some chow late at night after some hard drinking removed by moderator, get you a chilli chesse barrito and Jesus will love you and your nipples. Amen...

[Kadagar_AV]

It's a stupid law, and should have never been passed.

I'll make this real simple. I don't like illegal immigrants, and if caught they should be deported. Plenty of people, including my great grandfather who fought in a world war so my family could have a better life, have immigrated to this country legally. The process is not easy, and often takes a great amount of money, time, and stress. People who bypass this process are cheating and should be punished.

That being said, all I think this law is going to do is increase racial profiling among LEGAL immigrants and people of Mexican descent. The police can say they won't do it, but something really stinks here.

Would you agree that racial profiling is only wrong if, say, statistics would not show huuuuuuuuuuge differences between races?

Or?

[Megas Methuselah]

Would you agree that racial profiling is only wrong if, say, statistics would not show huuuuuuuuuuge differences between races?

Or?

Mexicans have more native blood than your average American, so they have more of a right to this continent anyways...

[Husar]

Mexicans have more native blood than your average American, so they have more of a right to this continent anyways...

So the natives never fought eachother before the arrival of the Europeans because they agreed that they all had a right to be there?

[PanzerJaeger]

That's what the Tejanos thought back in 1848 too. 'A few Anglo immigrants are not going to change Texas....'

Welcome to the return of history. The US Southwest is currently being colonised as much as it was in the 19th century.

Indeed. Aztlan is a dangerous concept for the US. This time, though, we have the resources to stop it. We just don't have the political will.

[Beskar]

Aztlan sounds like pre-WW2 Europe concept of German Lebensraum.

What is more likely to happen, is that North America merges into one nation state instead of the current 3 seperate ones.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Aztlan sounds like pre-WW2 Europe concept of German Lebensraum.

What is more likely to happen, is that North America merges into one nation state instead of the current 3 seperate ones.

That will be a LONG time coming, if ever. Canada and the USA are drifting together on enough sociopolitical issues/outlooks where such a possibility (though remote) does exist. But the Canadians don't need to be part of the USA to be successful. Mexico is pretty much always in tight straights, and would benefit from such a union in a number of ways, but the cultural differences would make it even more difficult and less likely.

Final verdict = please don't hold your breath waiting for the USA to encompass the whole continent.

[CountArach]

Final verdict = please don't hold your breath waiting for the USA to encompass the whole continent.

Did someone say Manifest Destiny?

[Lemur]

Did someone say Manifest Destiny?

It done been manifested already. We're from sea to shining sea, not from Yucatan peninsula to North Pole.

[Strike For The South]

That's what the Tejanos thought back in 1848 too. 'A few Anglo immigrants are not going to change Texas....'

Welcome to the return of history. The US Southwest is currently being colonised as much as it was in the 19th century.

Indeed. Aztlan is a dangerous concept for the US. This time, though, we have the resources to stop it. We just don't have the political will.

You're average Mexican immagrant is about as concerend with aztlan as I am with kicking out all the Irish.

The vast majority of Mexicans I know hate Mexico and speak english to eachother and like anyone else they are to busy with there families and jobs to worry about a marganilized consparicy theory.