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Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of Papy
Pensioner René Galinier has become the face of a fierce debate in France over their Roma community and the limits of liberté, égalité and fraternité:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...ng-France.html
Quote:
Nissan-lez-Ensérunes, where four generations of the Galinier family currently live, provides a vivid snapshot of why it has become such a charged issue in France. Not far from Montpellier, it is a picture-postcard image of southern French living, with elegant stone houses set among narrow winding streets filled with flowers.
Mr Galinier has lived in the village for over 70 years, raising his two children, working for the local council, then retiring to spend time with his wife and grandchildren and tend his garden. Swings stand in front of his wooden-shuttered bungalow, and a small table and chairs is set under the tree in the front garden by a pile of neatly chopped logs.
But his idyllic-looking home was not immune from the petty crime problems also affecting the rest of France. Mr Galinier had been targeted by criminals twice before; in 2002, when thieves attempted to break in, and in February this year when his goldfish were stolen from the pond.
Among villagers, the finger of blame for local petty crime often points - rightly or wrongly - to a patch of wasteland several miles outside the village, where a group of Roma have recently made camp next to a motorway. The families and their gaggles of wild-haired children live in ramshackle caravans among piles of rubbish, discarded furniture and old car tyres.
On the afternoon of August 5, two girls in their early twenties broke into Mr Galinier's home. The unarmed pair, who speak no French and have not given police their names, were both shot at from just a few metres' distance. One was hit on the groin, the other in the chest. Both are now in hospital awaiting identification and questioning - although one of the girls is thought to be already known to the police.
Mr Galinier's story, with its strong echoes of the British case of Norfolk farmer Tony Martin, has resonated throughout the village and beyond.
A support committee has been set up to fight for his cause, and signs have been spray-painted on the road to Nissan proclaiming "We're right behind you, René". A petition in the town hall, supermarket and local shops has over 8,000 signatures, with 10,000 from as far afield as the USA joining the campaign on Facebook and internet forums.
Picking her way among broken bottles, discarded sofas and heaps of rubbish, Mikaela Josephine, 19, is only interested in avoiding being sent back to Romania. "It's wrong, what Mr Sarkozy is doing," the mother-of-two said. "But I don't want to go back there. It is more racist than France."
And you wonder why France is drifting in the same direction? :idea2:
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Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of
I still come up against resistance to the common-sense concept that peoples are the product of their shared social and cultural history, and that a people who are subject to an influx of 'others' whose culture is very different are likely to view this as an invasion, especially if those 'others' are perceived to impact of the daily conduct of local life, and doubly so when those locals feel powerless to do anything about it.
The default response I come up against from people who refuse to accept this blindingly obvious logic is to wave away the problem by branding the local population as a bunch of worthless bigots, who could do with a little education in open-minded toleration and appreciation of other ways of life.
My response is that the states first duty is the welfare and well-being of its people, and to understand that people particularly from rural areas quite often live there because they appreciate the integration and cohesion of the local community, so leave them be. This is not to say that urban types won't thrive in mutli-cultural metropolis's, or that they are wrong to do so, horses for courses, merely that foreign 'invasions' particularly of those who lifestyle jars with that integrated and cohesive community spirit are deeply divisive and antagonistic to the welfare and well-being of the local people.
Why is my response to actively assist in the non-interference in other peoples lives, whereas others take a legalistic view that any deviation from the principles deemed acceptable by urbanites is automatically branded bigotry and sufficient justification for intrusive social engineering?
I personally have every sympathy with that french village, and am more than happy to see sarkozy working to increase the well-being of the people for whom he is responsible, regardless of whether it is for shallow politic reasons.
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Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of
This whole fuss is kind of silly actually.
Roma are *paid* (300€) to return to their country. The EU laws state that Roma can stay 3 monthes in a EU country before said country can kick them out. That's what Sarkozy is doing, and if polls are a correct indication (which they aren't), then most French people agree with him.
In Montpellier, there are around 30 Romas hanging in the most populated areas. The adults ask for money, play music or wash cars, while the kids are pickpockets and prostitutes. They get state funding as an additional source of income. Even though they're not entitled to get it after three monthes. Most of the money they make is given to the local mafia leader, who keeps a share and sends the rest back to Romania.
The last time the cops tried to make them move their camps, they found out most of the kids have scabbies.
I don't know what the solution is, but I don't want my taxes to be given to thieves and burglars.
Edit: As for the old man, I've followed the affair closely since I work at the local newspaper. Even though I think I would have acted the same way, he broke the law and thus deserves to face a trial. It's quite likely he wouldn't have received a harsh sentence, if it weren't for some of his declarations (such as "I've become racist, I hate this dirty race"). Having said that to the cops, it's likely the judge won't be as lenient with him.
As a whole, I think the situation in France is becoming direr and direr everyday. I suspect the far right will beat the left at the next presidential elections. I also fear another spark of this kind (old people molested/young girl raped by arabs/romas/gypsies) will turn people violent. The situation is really tense in southern France. Left or right, handworker or journalist, I can't recall of anyone who doesn't think immigration is destroying this region.
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Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of
I would kick them out, the state should respect the rights and liberties of its citizens but not foreigners that have no place being there.
Immigration should only be allowed as long as it is beneficial to the native population. These Roma clearly do not contribute anything the the country.
And I don't see this as bigotry, just common sense. When the Roma learn that living in caravans through crime and begging isn't a very sensible thing to do in the 21st century, they should be allowed to immigrate just as anyone else. Race is nothing to do with it, I don't expect to be able to go and live by a rubbish dump in Germany and exist by mugging the local population. :shrug:
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Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of
Italy is going to do the same, thankfully begging is illegal here and the children are forced to go to school so they hardly settle here, only some street musicians, rather good ones. But they are a serious problem in the south, yeah send them packing, and if that's racist so what really
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Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of
The thing that really irritates me is that i don't even give a damn about immigration as an issue, but i'm forced to waste my time advocating against uncontrolled immigration because governments have forgotten that their first, foremost, and absolute duty is to the welfare and well-being of their OWN people.
The result of this utter dereliction of duty is that I see the harmony and cohesion of society in Britain wrecked to the detriment of public concentration on issues that matter far more.
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Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rhyfelwyr
I would kick them out, the state should respect the rights and liberties of its citizens but not foreigners that have no place being there.
Immigration should only be allowed as long as it is beneficial to the native population. These Roma clearly do not contribute anything the the country.
And I don't see this as bigotry, just common sense. When the Roma learn that living in caravans through crime and begging isn't a very sensible thing to do in the 21st century, they should be allowed to immigrate just as anyone else. Race is nothing to do with it, I don't expect to be able to go and live by a rubbish dump in Germany and exist by mugging the local population. :shrug:
I live with a settled Roman, she's very nice.
Nonetowits.
Now, these people are EU citizens, if France didn't want them in their country they shouldn't have pushed so hard for those people to be included in the EU. So, under EU law, they cannot be evicted. Having a special EU law about certain EU citizens is clearly racist.
Having said that, the Roma cannot be allowed to just occupy waste land and foul it.
So I think there is a problem, and it is France's problem.
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Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of
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Originally Posted by
Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
Now, these people are EU citizens, if France didn't want them in their country they shouldn't have pushed so hard for those people to be included in the EU. So, under EU law, they cannot be evicted. Having a special EU law about certain EU citizens is clearly racist.
Actually. In France any foreign national, EU or otherwise, must have a work visa to stay longer than 3 months. So they aren't doing anything they are not allowed to do.
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Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of
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Originally Posted by
Meneldil
Edit: As for the old man, I've followed the affair closely since I work at the local newspaper. Even though I think I would have acted the same way, he broke the law and thus deserves to face a trial. It's quite likely he wouldn't have received a harsh sentence, if it weren't for some of his declarations (such as "I've become racist, I hate this dirty race"). Having said that to the cops, it's likely the judge won't be as lenient with him.
It's illegal to defend yourself by shooting criminals who break into your home?
At least the uncontrolled immigration into the US is just people who want to work.
CR
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Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of
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Originally Posted by
Psychonaut
Actually. In France any foreign national, EU or otherwise, must have a work visa to stay longer than 3 months. So they aren't doing anything they are not allowed to do.
So France does not conform to EU directives about free movement of EU citizens the way Britain does?
Once again, stop the EU, we want to get off.
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Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of
I remember when Gypsies settled on the sports field near our University campus and ruined all the pitches.
Should we protect these minority cultures or get rid of them? I think we should get rid of them, unless they can be bothered to do it legally and rent out a field or whatever.
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Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of
Just making it eaiser for the muslims.
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Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beskar
I remember when Gypsies settled on the sports field near our University campus and ruined all the pitches.
Should we protect these minority cultures or get rid of them? I think we should get rid of them, unless they can be bothered to do it legally and rent out a field or whatever.
ah, is that the siren call for yet more social engineering; "just one more push herr general and victory will be ours............"
oops, did i just godwin? :p
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Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beskar
I remember when Gypsies settled on the sports field near our University campus and ruined all the pitches.
Should we protect these minority cultures or get rid of them? I think we should get rid of them, unless they can be bothered to do it legally and rent out a field or whatever.
Cultural Genocide as a matter of course is not acceptable, but nor is positive discrimination.
Fly tipping was still a criminal offence last I checked, especially in those quantities.
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Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
So France does not conform to EU directives about free movement of EU citizens the way Britain does?
Once again, stop the EU, we want to get off.
When Romania and other countries joined some “temporary” restrictions on the EU directive with respect to this kind of migration were put into place as part of the package and anyway the directive contains a provision which applies for the first 5 years and basically says “except if you're a bum”. So no you can't decide that what you really want is a part of the French paradise, buy yourself a Loire cottage and live off French welfare state for the remainder of your life. ~;)
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Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Furunculus
ah, is that the siren call for yet more social engineering; "just one more push herr general and victory will be ours............"
oops, did i just godwin? :p
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
Cultural Genocide as a matter of course is not acceptable, but nor is positive discrimination.
Fly tipping was still a criminal offence last I checked, especially in those quantities.
Interesting replies. So deporting is people is ok, but not asking them to simply rent-out fields opposed to tresspassing?
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Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of
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Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of
Meh.
These clowns were in the news in Belgium lately. They occupied the land of a farmer, without asking the owner if it's ok, let alone paying him something for his trouble. When they were chased away, they whined about Belgium not showing enough hospitality.
Whoever goes and sits on a land that isn't his own, without the consent of the onwer, shouldn't be surprised he must leave. Idiots. Was it that difficult to ask the farmer and the local authorities under which conditions it would be ok to use that piece of land and, in case of a "njet" to go look for another piece of land?
On what basis did they think they had the right to just put their caravans where they please without having to ask? And then they wonder why some people dislike them? Would they like me after I break into their caravan, take a shower, have dinner and then leave without even cleaning the mess I made, let alone paying rent?
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Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
So France does not conform to EU directives about free movement of EU citizens the way Britain does?
Once again, stop the EU, we want to get off.
Actually, this kind of restriction towards Romas immigrants is not specific to France. All EU countries can kick Roma who can't justify their stay after three monthes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Crazed Rabbit
It's illegal to defend yourself by shooting criminals who break into your home?
At least the uncontrolled immigration into the US is just people who want to work.
CR
He wasn't defending himself: he shot the first girl in the back and the other one while she was running away. In France, the notion of "legitimate defense" actually means that you have to be defending someone, and not something. The retaliation also has to be proportionate. Which means you can't shot someone in the face because he insulted you.
Short story, long story, he broke the law. He could have expected some understanding from the court if he acted out of fear, but he didn't. In all likelyness, he got tired of being robbed in his own house, and got even more pissed off when he saw the intruders were Romas.
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Originally Posted by
Andres
Meh.
These clowns were in the news in Belgium lately. They occupied the land of a farmer, without asking the owner if it's ok, let alone paying him something for his trouble. When they were chased away, they whined about Belgium not showing enough hospitality.
Heh. When the first bunch of Romas got shipped back to Romania, they got interviewed by the AFP after their landing. All of them were bitching and whining about French people being racists, "almost as racist as Romanians". When asked if they were planning to come back, a few of them got the nerve to answer positively, because "it's quite easy to receive money from the state in France".
I don't know in what kind of world these people leave, but it looks like the completely fail to grasp what's going on around them.
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Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of
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Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of
“I don't know in what kind of world these people leave, but it looks like the completely fail to grasp what's going on around them.” All is better than the Roma situation in Rumania, Hungary, Croatia and Slovakia… Ghettos, discrimination, harassment etc…
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Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rvg
thinner....
:laugh4:
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Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of
Haven't got much to add except a group of travellers moved into a field about 50 odd meters from my house a few years back, one or two rumors flew around, I even remember a younger friend claiming they had a gun over there (he is paticularly known for being a sensationalist) I walked through thier camp a few times (just on way somewhere or back not for the hell of it) never once even had a bad look let alone problems, I never remember hearing of any rise in crime or any other problems that could lead back to these people. They did leave a mess after they left (not much maybe an hours work for one person to get all the rubbish) and I doubt they paid for the field (it was in the grounds of a business that shut down so it wasn't used anyway) but they didn't really cause any problems...
Not to say they can't cause problems elsewhere just wanted to throw a non negative experience in there among the negative ones...
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Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of
No real input from me, but I just wanted to state that this thread has caused me to waste about 30 minutes of my life rewatching Snatch clips on YouTube.
That is all.
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Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of
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Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of
The one thing that gets me is the Traveller's as there called here always want some kind of right to a "Nomadic" culture. However last time I checked if your in receipt of social welfare you have to be available for work which is not possible in a nomadic existence as definded by themselves
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Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of
So, pop to France for 3 months and get home for not just free but some cash too...
Did the French not realise that this is part of the wonderful EU they're hell bent on making?
~:smoking:
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Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beskar
Interesting replies. So deporting is people is ok, but not asking them to simply rent-out fields opposed to tresspassing?
it was the reference to this:
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Should we protect these minority cultures or get rid of them? I think we should get rid of them,
which could be construed as advocating an interventionist cultural/behavioral policy, that some might term social engineering. :)
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Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of
Quote:
Originally Posted by
drone
No real input from me, but I just wanted to state that this thread has caused me to waste about 30 minutes of my life rewatching Snatch clips on YouTube.
That is all.
:2thumbsup:
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Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of
"Did the French not realise that this is part of the wonderful EU they're hell bent on making?" Well, the majority of the French voted against the European Constitution. And their opinion was ignored.
Posters are informed that Brenus' opinion on this matter is to be ignored :balloon2:
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Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Brenus
"Did the French not realise that this is part of the wonderful EU they're hell bent on making?" Well, the majority of the French voted against the European Constitution. And their opinion was ignored.
Same here, we said no
Posters are informed that Fragony's opinion on this matter is to be ignored :balloon2:
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Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of
I get ignored all the damn time. Roll with it.
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Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of
Louis did you just trade places with Seamus? Since when did you wield power in the backroom anyway?
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Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of
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Originally Posted by
Tellos Athenaios
Louis did you just trade places with Seamus? Since when did you wield power in the backroom anyway?
I have struck down both green menaces, Seamus and Banquo....
They won't bother me anymore.
I have now become more powerful than you could possibly imagine...
http://planetsmilies.net/star-wars-smiley-6449.gif http://planetsmilies.net/star-wars-smiley-6472.gif http://planetsmilies.net/star-wars-smiley-6449.gif
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Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of
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Originally Posted by
rvg
thinner....
Or in Sarkosy's case, shorter...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rory_20_uk
So, pop to France for 3 months and get home for not just free but some cash too...
Did the French not realise that this is part of the wonderful EU they're hell bent on making?
~:smoking:
Moral narcissism in action. Reminds me of US foreign policy, lately.
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Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of
And all this western ngo's in Serbia, and other eastern countries i presume, say how Romas are discriminated and how they should be treated by western standards. Right, expel them all I say.
Kidding aside, they are a huge problem because it's impossible to assimilate them, and by that I don't mean into a particular nation but into a western culture. They follow their own rules and completely ignore local laws.
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Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of
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Originally Posted by
Louis VI the Fat
So what happened to you little drugs sideline in Virginia then?
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Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Brenus
"Did the French not realise that this is part of the wonderful EU they're hell bent on making?" Well, the majority of the French voted against the European Constitution. And their opinion was ignored.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fragony
Same here, we said no
Well, at least somebody asked for your opinions, nobody bothered to ask ours...
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Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fragony
Same here, we said no
Posters are informed that Fragony's opinion on this matter is to be ignored :balloon2:
Evil French
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Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Andres
Well, at least somebody asked for your opinions, nobody bothered to ask ours...
The Belgian constitution does not allow for a referendum. :book:
No Belgian is remotely interested in voting for any of his nine governments, none with any clear competence, but he is obliged to by law: voting is compulsory. Then when a Belgian does want to cast a vote, about a subject he does understands and cares about, he is disallowed to by law.
Belgium, quality entertainment! Europe's best running gag. :balloon2:
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Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Louis VI the Fat
The Belgian constitution does not allow for a referendum. :book:
No Belgian is remotely interested in voting for any of his nine governments, none with any clear competence, but he is obliged to by law: voting is compulsory. Then when a Belgian does want to cast a vote, about a subject he does understands and cares about, he is disallowed to by law.
Belgium, quality entertainment! Europe's best running gag. :balloon2:
So true :shame:
:laugh4:
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Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beskar
Interesting replies. So deporting is people is ok, but not asking them to simply rent-out fields opposed to tresspassing?
No, prosecuting people for breaking the law is ok, imprisoning and then deporting them is even ok, deporting them because you don't like them is not ok.
It hasn't been ok since Aethelred the Unready tried to innitiate a pogrom against the "Danes" in 1002 AD.
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Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Louis VI the Fat
The Belgian constitution does not allow for a referendum. :book:
No Belgian is remotely interested in voting for any of his nine governments, none with any clear competence, but he is obliged to by law: voting is compulsory. Then when a Belgian does want to cast a vote, about a subject he does understands and cares about, he is disallowed to by law.
Belgium, quality entertainment! Europe's best running gag. :balloon2:
lol, says more about us than it does about bush:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...-minister.html
Quote:
“He didn’t know or recognise Guy, whose advice he listened to with considerable astonishment,” Mr Blair writes. “He then turned to me and whispered, ‘Who is this guy?’ ‘He is the prime minister of Belgium,’ I said.
“Belgium? George said, clearly aghast at the possible full extent of his stupidity. ‘Belgium is not part of the G8’.”
Mr Blair explained to Mr Bush that Mr Verhofstadt was there as “president of Europe”. Belgium held the presidency of the EU council at the time.
Mr Bush responded: “You got the Belgians running Europe?” before shaking his head, “now aghast at our stupidity”, Mr Blair writes.
roflmao!
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Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of
Probably the most astute thing he's ever done.
~:smoking:
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Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Sarmatian
And all this western ngo's in Serbia, and other eastern countries i presume, say how Romas are discriminated and how they should be treated by western standards. Right, expel them all I say.
Kidding aside, they are a huge problem because it's impossible to assimilate them, and by that I don't mean into a particular nation but into a western culture. They follow their own rules and completely ignore local laws.
This is a tricky issue to say the least, and it's been interesting to read the posts here. I'm inclined to say that the Roma are now Europe's problem, rather than a Romanian issue.
As far as my 2 cents go, Sarmatian's point is key: The Roma are a problem because their way of life at least appear completely at odds with the settled populations of the countries they travel to/in. They also don't want to or can't be assimilated, presumably because they consider their way of life of cultural significance to themselves, but also because there is (for one or many reasons) not much sympathy from the settled populations and no easy path to economic/social integration (not much need for illiterate and unskilled migrant labour these days...).
I'm pretty sure there are "travelers" (there are so many different groups/names/types) in the UK who don't cause a massive disruption, either by owning land or otherwise or getting agreement from police/local authorities. Thing is, even when approached some places/people are quite likely to say "no thank you" to someone setting up a travellers' camp on bought land. I have no idea how travelers sustain their livelihoods.
Possibly the worst aspect of this is that the Roma live in abject poverty and ignorance, with little or no schooling for their kids -never mind health care. How much of this is by cause of circumstance or concscious choice?
No one should expect to get something for nothing, but you can't force people to give up a way of life either. Especially if you still expect/want to be seen as the enlightened corner of the world...
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Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of
By whom, roma's? Lefties? Do I really have to care about the opinion of useless eastern-euro trash or be-it-seventies-ultra-orthodoxists? I don't think so.
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Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fragony
By whom, roma's? Lefties? Do I really have to care about the opinion of useless eastern-euro trash or be-it-seventies-ultra-orthodoxists? I don't think so.
No, by all means, you can continue to talk :daisy:
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Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of
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Originally Posted by
Andres
So true :shame:
:laugh4:
Reminds me of one of his prior posts:
http://zapatopi.net/belgium/
Brilliant!
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Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of
Quote:
Originally Posted by
alh_p
No, by all means, you can continue to talk :daisy:
Got a garden? Invite them over and exchange some recepies or stop being the the smug morally superior richboy from a 100% white neighbourhood with one kebab-shop where nobody ever got robbed.
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Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fragony
Got a garden? Invite them over and exchange some recepies or stop being the the smug morally superior richboy from a 100% white neighbourhood with one kebab-shop where nobody ever got robbed.
LOL.
now, in seriousness, is "kick them out" as developed a position as you'd care to present on this issue?
I don't think my initial post says anything that should provoke/offend you. I just discussed some of the underlying issues and tried to indicate that simply kicking the Roma out of western european countries is not much of a mid or long term solution.
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Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fragony
Got a garden? Invite them over and exchange some recepies or stop being the the smug morally superior richboy from a 100% white neighbourhood with one kebab-shop where nobody ever got robbed.
U mad?
Well anyway, I think we should create a Roma homeland, somewhere in Siberia.
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Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of
Quote:
Originally Posted by
alh_p
LOL.
now, in seriousness, is "kick them out" as developed a position as you'd care to present on this issue?
Is there any obligation we have?
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Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Skullheadhq
U mad?
Well anyway, I think we should create a Roma homeland, somewhere in Siberia.
stalin was quite keen on that too. :D
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Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fragony
Is there any obligation we have?
Well, afaik, as european citizens the Roma can't be kept wherever you kick them too. As raised above, what is to stop them returning to France after repatriation and receiving their payout? How effective do you judge a policy of removal/repatriation to be when the migrants are legally entitled to move around the EU as they please?
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Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of
They are not, in Romania's case. I believe, they are not full entitled members.
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Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of
True, there are some restrictions with Romanian and Bulgarian citizens, meaning they aren't given full rights like other members but eventually they will be given (5,10,20... years). What then? Their culture is simply incompatible with western culture and most of them will never be able to assimilate.
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Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Sarmatian
True, there are some restrictions with Romanian and Bulgarian citizens, meaning they aren't given full rights like other members but eventually they will be given (5,10,20... years). What then? Their culture is simply incompatible with western culture and most of them will never be able to assimilate.
hmmm, we should have thought about this before we engaged in the massive circile-jerk that is ever-deeper-union.
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Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of
Quote:
Originally Posted by
alh_p
This is a tricky issue to say the least, and it's been interesting to read the posts here. I'm inclined to say that the Roma are now Europe's problem, rather than a Romanian issue.
As far as my 2 cents go, Sarmatian's point is key: The Roma are a problem because their way of life at least appear completely at odds with the settled populations of the countries they travel to/in. They also don't want to or can't be assimilated, presumably because they consider their way of life of cultural significance to themselves, but also because there is (for one or many reasons) not much sympathy from the settled populations and no easy path to economic/social integration (not much need for illiterate and unskilled migrant labour these days...).
I'm pretty sure there are "travelers" (there are so many different groups/names/types) in the UK who don't cause a massive disruption, either by owning land or otherwise or getting agreement from police/local authorities. Thing is, even when approached some places/people are quite likely to say "no thank you" to someone setting up a travellers' camp on bought land. I have no idea how travelers sustain their livelihoods.
Possibly the worst aspect of this is that the Roma live in abject poverty and ignorance, with little or no schooling for their kids -never mind health care. How much of this is by cause of circumstance or concscious choice?
No one should expect to get something for nothing, but you can't force people to give up a way of life either. Especially if you still expect/want to be seen as the enlightened corner of the world...
The half-Roma I live with has toldme that her Romany Gypsy mother was keen for her to have at least basic schooling, but her showman "Traveller" father considered it useless.
She's an English Roma but her opinion of modern "travellers" in Britain and elsewhere is very very low.
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Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
The half-Roma I live with has toldme that her Romany Gypsy mother was keen for her to have at least basic schooling, but her showman "Traveller" father considered it useless.
I hope her mother got her way! Tragically, some won't have.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
She's an English Roma but her opinion of modern "travellers" in Britain and elsewhere is very very low.
:) I understand (from my mother who is an ESOL teacher for state-school kids in my parents' county) that the different types of travellers are indeed very particular about their differences, not to mention rude about each other.
I was just googling trying to find some list of different traveller groups and came accross this, which is quite surprising:
http://www.travellerstimes.org.uk/website/Home.htm
It's funded by the Dept for Children, Schools and Families. Leads me to wonder though how long it will survice with the Big Society...
While browsing that site, I came acrross a pdf "guide to gypsies and travellers" which, providing you are interested in more than what size boot to wear when "kicking them out", should be interesting. Apparently, half of gypsies/travellers in the Uk live in houses (that don't have wheels) and don't have psycic powers. Also, on page 13 there is an explanation for why Wayne Rooney is so quarrelsome and likes bright colours.
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Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of
Not long, I hope. Unlike the vast numbers of waves of immigrants that have come to the UK over the last thousand years or so and have integrated and enriched our society, as a group this lot haven't.
~:smoking:
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Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of
Well, I live in the aforementioned place, so I only have to say that the Roma minority will return to France. Italy will be the next destination as well.
EDIT: I forgot to mention, the fact that France is considering the restriction of free travel of Romanians to the country is EXTREMELY racist from my part. I find it downright insulting. Not to mention it limits my ability of going wherever I wish to travel.
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Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of
Agree. Sakozy is the shame of France. Whatever the problems due to some Roma, the political exploitation is a form of racism even I doubt Sarkozy himself being Racist.
He even plans to break the Social Contract, the foundation of Modern France, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
He will create two sorts of French.
This man is a walking dishonour.
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Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of
Are Romanians a race? I didn't think so.
Since he's not discriminating against a race, it isn't racist.
~:smoking:
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Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rory_20_uk
Since he's not discriminating against a race, it isn't racist.
Indeed. Scientifically, there are no "races" within mankind, so, if I understand well from your point of view there is no racism of any kind anywhere since the last Neanderthalian died... What a joke...
Seen from the inside (of France), all the ******* thing is plain, outrageous racism. Nothing more, nothing less.
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Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tristuskhan
Indeed. Scientifically, there are no "races" within mankind, so, if I understand well from your point of view there is no racism of any kind anywhere since the last Neanderthalian died... What a joke...
Seen from the inside (of France), all the ******* thing is plain, outrageous racism. Nothing more, nothing less.
So what if it is? People should stop whining about discrimination prejudice is experience most of the time; Roma's are pretty much useless.
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Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of
And what discrimination, the nasty look they get when they cling onto you sobbing until the extra fat Mercedes picks them up? Their kids can go to school but they drug them instead for that extra boohoohoo (yeah that is why they look so ill). And all the while leeching on state handouts. Going to blame France because they live a life of begging and stealing instead of getting an education and a job? They are travelers for a reason, people always eventually get sick of them.
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Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of
Seeing as how concerning the subject I'm somewhat to the left of Idi Amin but slightly to the right of Frags and Hitler, some classic rock instead.
Scandal ft. Patty Smyth. One of rock's great underrated voices. A rock career cut short owing to record company troubles, she later went on to marry John McEnroe. She / they are currently touring again!
Goodbye to you! ~:wave:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DH1O6nyKnow&feature=related
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Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fragony
So what if it is? People should stop whining about discrimination prejudice is experience most of the time; Roma's are pretty much useless.
You're nervous, Frag... I don't complain about racism, knowing it's useless: racism exists and there's nothing I can do about it. I just find it deeply disturbing when racists clame they are not. Erh, in order to enlighten me, can you explain what you mean when you write "prejudice is experience", please, coz' it sounds hard to assimilate face value.
Oh and about your second message, the thing one should complain about is that Sarko uses Romanis, who are weak, ignorant, have no friends and are definitely antipathic, as a nice political tool to drag the debate away from his oligarchic-ultrafriendly policy, a policy that costs France much more than all Romanis can dream of. President 50 cent(imeters) is playing with fire...
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Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rory_20_uk
Are Romanians a race? I didn't think so.
Yes, they are descended from the Roman settlers to Dacia. *where is the surprise smilie*
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Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of
In the last few years, in just a few years, bidonvilles have sprung up at the edges of several French towns, Lille, Bordeaux, Saint-Denis. Imported third world slums: poverty, crime, misery .
I am sure it is all very tragic and blahblah, but just why France should solve the world's problems I don't understand. So as far as I'm concerned, Sarko can even kick it up a notch, and test and try the legal possibilities to get rid of them a bit more. Let the EU and Romania and everybody else shed their tear if they must.
My tears are only shed because I know they'll all be back in three months time.
Why oh why should some Roma who arrived in France in 2007, who's lived of stealing, begging and state support, who barely speaks any French, why should he be part of French solidarity? (In contrast to his cousin, who did not move to France several months ago and who lives 200 kilometer down the road?)
If there is a Roma problem, then let France help solve it in Romania and Bulgaria. Rather than import it. The world is full of poor people. There are a billion poor beggars who would love to set up a shanty town at the edge of some French city. I bet half the Vazelas of Rio de Janeiro would love to move themselves to Bordeaux, or Kinshasha, or all the poor of Bangladesh. Sorry, tough luck.
The economic powerhouse and capital of French gastronomy, Lyon. And it's bidonville, one third of its inhabitants children, who beg, steal and rummage through garbage for a living. I am not sure any of this adds any meaningful dimension to French society.
There are plenty of indigenous communities of itinerant peoples, with lots of unresolved difficulties. No need to import more.
https://img339.imageshack.us/img339/...yphotopays.jpg
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Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Louis VI the Fat
Why oh why should some Roma who arrived in France in 2007, who's lived of stealing, begging and state support, who barely speaks any French, why should he be part of French solidarity? (In contrast to his cousin, who did not move to France several months ago and who lives 200 kilometer down the road?)
That's my question too. Not only am I asked to bear with their constant bothering anytime I go to downtown, but I'd also have to pay for their healthcare and security, even though I don't share anything with these people? No way. There are already enough :daisy: who lives off the state. No need to add more.
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Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Meneldil
That's my question too. Not only am I asked to bear with their constant bothering anytime I go to downtown, but I'd also have to pay for their healthcare and security, even though I don't share anything with these people? No way. There are already enough :daisy: who lives off the state. No need to add more.
Meh, probably I should think the same about southern white thrash, you know.
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Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tristuskhan
Meh, probably I should think the same about southern white thrash, you know.
You can, that's 100% ok to say, putting things in perspective and all that gutmensch will call it. White trash, what can I say they exist, so why not help these first instead of importing more illiterates who will never contribute anything except making the pity-industry filthy rich.
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Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of
Can't we export them both? ~;)
~:smoking:
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Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rory_20_uk
Can't we export them both? ~;)
That was part of the point of the colonies... Slap 'em in irons and ship them off to another continent.
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Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of
Took me a moment to connect "roma" with "gypsys" (still the common term in USA).
I wonder if some kind of "nomadic" citizenship rights/responsibilities thing could be promulgated.
Other thought...wouldn't a true EU citizenship negate the national borders anyway, making them no more of a barrier then state borders are in the USA?
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Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Seamus Fermanagh
Took me a moment to connect "roma" with "gypsys" (still the common term in USA).
I wonder if some kind of "nomadic" citizenship rights/responsibilities thing could be promulgated.
Other thought...wouldn't a true EU citizenship negate the national borders anyway, making them no more of a barrier then state borders are in the USA?
that's rather the problem, who wants the millions of romanian gypsies when the border restrictions are lifted!
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Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tristuskhan
Meh, probably I should think the same about southern white thrash, you know.
I'm tempted to say the reason why Southern France is plagued by unemployement, poverty and subsequently, macho-male-useless-white-trashes and pregant teens is because of the huge percentage of north-african population here. The second most visited website in my Region (Languedoc-Roussillon) is la CAF (behind chatroulette). Yep, that's how sad it is.
We attract all the trash of France, thanks to the sun, the beaches and Georges Frêche Imperator the First, who provides social housing to all kind of useless people. Thank me for taking care of your homeless punks. It's the garbage bin of the country.
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Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Meneldil
I'm tempted to say the reason why Southern France is plagued by unemployement, poverty and subsequently, macho-male-useless-white-trashes and pregant teens is because of the huge percentage of north-african population here.
I understand you're upset but you'll need evidence about that. I've lived in Languedoc-Roussillon, I saw the unemployment, poverty et al. It was in Northern Lozère. Hard to blame it on North Africans up there, isn't it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Meneldil
The second most visited website in my Region (Languedoc-Roussillon) is la CAF (behind chatroulette). Yep, that's how sad it is.
Sad, of course, but I'd like to figure how it is in other regions. My bet would be the difference is chatroulette, that fits so well to the natural superficiality of southern french people, but who knows?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Meneldil
We attract all the trash of France, thanks to the sun, the beaches and Georges Frêche Imperator the First, who provides social housing to all kind of useless people.
Same could be said about Brittany, apart from Big G(eorges Frêche), and now Brittany's north africans become hard-working good-tempered dominated-by-their-wives drunkards and pot-smokers as any Breton is... so I say blame it on the locals.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Meneldil
Thank me for taking care of your homeless punks.
And thank me for working and paying taxes for you all lazy sods...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Meneldil
It's the garbage bin of the country.
Love it or leave it, my advice.
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Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tristuskhan
I understand you're upset but you'll need evidence about that. I've lived in Languedoc-Roussillon, I saw the unemployment, poverty et al. It was in Northern Lozère. Hard to blame it on North Africans up there, isn't it?
I lived in Aurillac (Cantal) for 5 monthes. Cantal is - AFAIK - the second or third poorest departement in France. As soon as you leave downtown, the city is only made of social housing. Yet, even though I've seen some sad things (such as lot of homeless bums, etc.), I've never encountered the level of violence you can witness everyday in Montpellier. The only time I saw someone behaving like an ass (calling a girl "slut" in the middle of the street), it was a... a group of young arabs.
Even during the Festival du Théâtre de Rue, which attracts all the punks of France, you can still walk around the city at night without being annoyed every five minutes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tristuskhan
Sad, of course, but I'd like to figure how it is in other regions. My bet would be the difference is chatroulette, that fits so well to the natural superficiality of southern french people, but who knows?
As far as I know, Languedoc-Roussillon is the only region where La Caf was more visited than the Pôle Emploi. I'll look for the study again if you wish, but the results were published in the Midi Libre when I worked there this summer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tristuskhan
Same could be said about Brittany, apart from Big G(eorges Frêche), and now Brittany's north africans become hard-working good-tempered dominated-by-their-wives drunkards and pot-smokers as any Breton is... so I say blame it on the locals.
Good for you then. Though honestly, everytime I go to Brittany, I rarely see any north-african. There are some in Nantes and Rennes, but the further west you go, the less of them you meet. The situation doesn't really compare to Montpellier, Nîmes or Béziers, where north-africans make up between 30% and 40% of the population. It is much easier to assimilate a dozen of migrants than ten thousands of them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tristuskhan
And thank me for working and paying taxes for you all lazy sods...Love it or leave it, my advice.
I work and pay my taxes too, and I indeed don't plan on staying in the South. As for your paternalistic tone toward the South, that's kind of the Hôpital qui se fout de la charité, as Brittany has been regarded as one of the most backward part of France until not too long ago. Now it has this whole aura of coolness to it, but things havn't always been that way.
