Useless units?

Here I would like people to share their mind about the units they never train/hire (peasants are not discussed). We will not dwell on the cases when you have no other choice, rather I would like to hear people speak of an ideal game (you have access to all possible kinds of units).
In my case, I can divide such useless units in 2 categories:
1) redundant ones;
2) untamed ones.
The first are definitely crossbows. Does anyone use them if you can have arbalesters? Mounted crossbows belong here too as I see the main purpose of horse ranged units in disrupting enemy's formation and luring him into traps. But MCs are too slow shooters to do that, horsed archers of various types do it better. And the accuracy of MCs!
The second category includes the units I can't (because I don't want to) master as I see no reason to do it. Here I include all javelin units (Jinets as well). I realize the amount of angry javelin adepts' voices but I don't see the efficiency of such units. I will explain.
Javelins are range units. The main aim of this type of units is to kill the enemy at a distance. But the distance they can use their weapons at is ridiculously short. Thus, killing at a distance I leave solely to archers/arbalesters. When the distance allows javelins to do their job, the melee breaks out, so using the javs you are likely to hit your own units as much as the enemy's. One might say that I should use a junk unit to pin the enemy with. But to cause substantial damage you should have at least three jav units (and three junk units, correspondingly). I don't relish the idea of having my front line composed of three junk units (which are likely to rout very soon) just to let javs show their usefulness.
Moreover, The Guide recommends using javs from the rear. So, instead of sending the cavalry to hit from the rear and disperse the enemy, I should try to bring the long two-row formation of the javs around the melee (without letting them get entangled into the fight) and send them to the rear to do a questionable damage while the battle is raging on demanding for some prompt and effective measures.
The only case when I admit the usefulness of javelins is bridge battles. It's not that I use them there, rather I saw them used against me, they were deadly! But you can't have javs-a-plenty in your armies just in case one of them (armies that is)may encounter a bridge battle someday. Rather they can be specific assignment troops called for if you expect an attack over the river.

Any shield unit. If you want to counter cavery use Pole units, or other Cavary. Also on the attack there not much cop.

It's all down to preferences in many cases, although the number of redundant units are plenty (lithuanian cav for example). And sometimes it's down to the faction rooster.

Crossbows are certainly redundant, although I've been using them for a decade when high comes before teaching up to arbs. before I modded them to early and increased their rof slightly.

Mounted crossbowmen does it job decently on harassing and are good to deploy behind enemy lines, when the melee begins. But they are a horse archer substitute for factions not getting horse archers normally.

jinettes are rally good actually. They're among the strongest fast cavalry and got javelins to boot. Harass that heavy cav and draw them away or shower them with javelins. Then go and hit some flank somewhere.

The one thing to remember that foot javelin units are early units and meant as such. Thus pin that royal cav with spearmen and then hit him with javelins. I'm not sure why VI added such a number of them, since they don't have that much use (even with a good position, they run out of javelins quite quickly and aren't usually good at melee), but there's still places where they're useful. But they are mainly made to soften up tougher units in early.

Spears are better than polearms in these areas.
Early access: You'll get Chivalric Sergeants and halbs at about the same time. That's quite a while before polearms show up.
Arrow/bolt resistance: Silver CS vs the horde are really useful. I don't think I've ever seen a CS unit crumble and rout due to frontal arrow fire. Sure they get depleted after a while, but they're the stronged unit vs arrow fire in the game, thanks to their armour, shields and added unit numbers. The heaviest halb can handle this aswell, but they have the next problem
Speed: Mainly vs regular halbs and CFK. Those units are annoyingly slow. Can be countered, but extra speed is always useful.
Access: The faster halbs are all hard to get. Either faction or region speciffic.
Staying power: Spears makes an exellent frontline due to this. They last for a long time. And with their high charge values, they can do pretty good charges.

They're weaker in MP as far as I know, since many of thier advantages get nullified.

The boon with halbs are the ap (that get's better the longer the game goes due to increased armour) and that they got devastating charges vs cav, finishing the cav off much faster.

Normal pikemen are quite useless though. They lack many of the advantages normal spear gets and only gains it in bridge battles without arrow fire.

I hate Steppe (light) cavalry. I consider it waste of unit place and too specialised. Yes, it is perfect at chasing routers and etc. but the same role can be filled by the plain Horse Archers. Not that spectacular but a versatile unit for hit-and-run tactics and chasing the routed enemy alike. A master horse breeder and a church do good work for the HA.

I don't build toward knights, right away... and stopped building Royal Knights, altogether. I find that towards the end of the early era I will capture enough provinces that one (or a couple) will have most of the requirements for Fuedal Knights (and sometimes Chiv) already present... and the buildings that are destroyed during the capture are usually the ones you want... with an exception of Knight buildup buildings. That or I'm just unlucky.?.

Spanish Jinettes are basically Mounted Sergeants w/o a charge stat... or a charge BUGLE for that matter (haha)... only faster... and throw javs... and trample routers with vigour! I use them if their home provinces (many of which hold iron) already hold the horse farmer line, but don't hold the spear line. Excellent versus dismounted armour, good versus unmounted light, and even fair versus archers/cavarly.

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Originally Posted by sulla1982ad

Any shield unit. If you want to counter cavery use Pole units, or other Cavary. Also on the attack there not much cop.

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I'll take this into consideration, but I can't imagine it working well with the English. The spear line develops billmen, a pole arm unit, for some odd reason.

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Originally Posted by Ironside

It's all down to preferences in many cases, although the number of redundant units are plenty (lithuanian cav for example). And sometimes it's down to the faction rooster.

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The first time I played a campaign I tech'd up to Lith Cav just for fun (easy is... well... easy). They have low support costs for cavalry, but their build up took FOREVER. Also, once I played the Danes without training ANY vikings... only allowing myself to bribe them. They still (can) have an incredible trade advantage versus anyone outside of the Med... and most inside of the Med.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Arquebusiers yet. The only way to use a gunpowder unit effectively is to have them fire from behind at close range. At such short distances, the the Arquebusier's range advantage over the Handgunner doesn't really matter, and at least Handgunners can perform decently in melee once they're done shooting.

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Originally Posted by FinalLegendZero

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Arquebusiers yet. The only way to use a gunpowder unit effectively is to have them fire from behind at close range. At such short distances, the the Arquebusier's range advantage over the Handgunner doesn't really matter, and at least Handgunners can perform decently in melee once they're done shooting.

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Depends. Arqubuisers are more there for the morale drop (-6 instead of -2) for a quick rout, rather than damage. They don't replace arbs, they're a minor complement to them. They do got better accuracy than handgunners, so that point blank volley works a bit better as well.

It's a personal preference thing. I think more people prefer arqs compared to handgunners actually, even if neither is really popular.

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Originally Posted by Prince Cobra

I hate Steppe (light) cavalry. I consider it waste of unit place and too specialised. Yes, it is perfect at chasing routers and etc. but the same role can be filled by the plain Horse Archers. Not that spectacular but a versatile unit for hit-and-run tactics and chasing the routed enemy alike. A master horse breeder and a church do good work for the HA.

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I have only the vanilla MTW (no Russian Spears, no Heavy Steppe Cav, etc) so I still find myself training light steppe cav when I conquor eastward with a western european power (no horse archers). Hobilars are basically a slower, slightly cheaper steppe cav (trading one attack for one defense point). The extra speed (vs hobilars) seems to work well for the years leading up to allowing the prov to be able to produce mounted sgts, imo.

Javelins; except for the exceptional Jinette :)

Another exception might be the Irish roster in VI; you aren't getting anywhere w/o some mastery of javelins.

Hashishian (sp); why build them when I could get another (or many) Ghazi? No real use for them.

Viking Thralls; why bother? Need bulk for garrison? =>peasants; Need spears? =>build spears :p

Let's see; I don't build any body guards (other then house carls in VI) although I do repair them. Rarely do I build urban militia as early spears are much better overall. Militia sergeants are also rarely built. Heavy steppe cavalry is too expensive for its usefulness. Crossbows, peasants, and thralls were already mentioned. On an opposite note, vikings seemed to be good anti-armor even in the late period; seemed similar to those Arab units. Don't bother with non-siege engine gunpowder units at all. No need for spears for the German factions in VI as Friedman are better by far. Probably others - just none come to mind off the top of my head.

Let's see; I don't build any body guards (other then house carls in VI) although I do repair them. Rarely do I build urban militia as early spears are much better overall. Militia sergeants are also rarely built. Heavy steppe cavalry is too expensive for its usefulness. Crossbows, peasants, and thralls were already mentioned. On an opposite note, vikings seemed to be good anti-armor even in the late period; seemed similar to those Arab units. Don't bother with non-siege engine gunpowder units at all. No need for spears for the German factions in VI as Friedman are better by far. Probably others - just none come to mind off the top of my head.

I will admit I've never really seen the point of training Urban Militia.

I want to know how nmy post got on there twice; notice the minutes are simply reversed (24/42)? ~:confused:

Probably just a forum glitch. It happens.

Yeah, my thoughts too (but an unsolved mystery).

As far as useless units, how about that AI? When I fight the Spanish (in early, at least), nothing but Jinnetes - a nice auxiliary but not a frontline unit. The Turks are mainly horse archers. In fact, archers of all types seem to be over built making enemies a walkover. Worse, once available, its all crossbows and regular archers eat them alive.

The AI seems to have a handicap re: unit selection.

Probably related to cost effectiveness; bows are cheap and do good damage=>moar bows pls!

The worst is faction reemergence: omg! the Sicilians are back! 3stacks ohh nooo!!1 hmm, ballista, catapults, and archers....

The French AI in a vanilla game is just non-stop peasants and ballista. ~:rolleyes: So happy I have modded them out.

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Originally Posted by Martok

I will admit I've never really seen the point of training Urban Militia.

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Started a Early game with the English recently. UMs are decent to temporarily bulk up the stranded mainland armies until spears come online. After that, no more recruiting and existing units will be sacrificed against enemy heavy cav.

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Originally Posted by drone

Started a Early game with the English recently. UMs are decent to temporarily bulk up the stranded mainland armies until spears come online. After that, no more recruiting and existing units will be sacrificed against enemy heavy cav.

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I found UM's very useful until after the Early period had ceased / Halibards became available, particularly against armoured units.

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Originally Posted by DEB8

I found UM's very useful until after the Early period had ceased / Halibards became available, particularly against armoured units.

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If your faction lacks AP, Militia Sergeants are better and have the same upkeep costs. The low builds reqs for UMs give you some infantry prior to Spearmaker/Swordsmith construction if the faction isn't blessed with Vikings/Slavs/Woodsmen/Clansmen. And with Peasants modded out, you need something early for garrisons. But their stats are just awful...

UM is the source of stars. so they are usefull. early are is the time of them.
AI usually gives them star (1-5) but not spears. so they are soo usufull until feodal-man comes, or order foots.
I dont like jevelins but in early u have to use them.
sometimes number is more important for troublesome neighbours and for loyalty with low cost.

Take this with a healthy dose of salt, but... Well, personally I am under the impression that most units in raw MTW are more or less useless (roughly speaking... Even more so in V.2.01 with its 5000 different and extra versions/clones of spears etc. etc. All on general terms of course).

Maybe its just me? :laugh4:

- A

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Originally Posted by drone

If your faction lacks AP, Militia Sergeants are better and have the same upkeep costs. The low builds reqs for UMs give you some infantry prior to Spearmaker/Swordsmith construction if the faction isn't blessed with Vikings/Slavs/Woodsmen/Clansmen. And with Peasants modded out, you need something early for garrisons. But their stats are just awful...

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I knew there was a unit or two between UM and Halibards! Couldn't recall them ( it's been a while since I actually played MTW ). I moved to Militia Sergeants as soon as I could for my armies and moved the UM's to garrision duties. Um's have their uses, but they are poor and comparitivily speaking they get poorer.

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Originally Posted by ferdi

UM is the source of stars. so they are usefull. early are is the time of them.
AI usually gives them star (1-5) but not spears. so they are soo usufull until feodal-man comes, or order foots.

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Yes, I was suprised at this when I played last. I had one or two 3* UM's and a 6* one if I recall correctly. I used them as generals for defensive armies where I did not expect an attack ( border with Denmark for the 6*). I "armoured up" mine, but I am not sure it helped them much.

Um's were quite useful against the Scots and Irish as I recall.

***Sniff, sniff***

Not too late for a resurrection...

***Slaughters chicken, utters the sacred words, etc...***

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Originally Posted by bunt0025

I have only the vanilla MTW (no Russian Spears, no Heavy Steppe Cav, etc) so I still find myself training light steppe cav when I conquor eastward with a western european power (no horse archers). Hobilars are basically a slower, slightly cheaper steppe cav (trading one attack for one defense point). The extra speed (vs hobilars) seems to work well for the years leading up to allowing the prov to be able to produce mounted sgts, imo.

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I agree... also base stats aren't everything in MTW, some units only come into their own with upgraded morale or a regional + master level valour bonus (e.g. clansmen). I like light cavalry, but many do not know how to best utilise any cavalry properly except heavy. Someone said that vanilla horse archers could be used for chasing routers, they're also one of the weakest melee units in the game and can take heavy losses doing so. I would rather have one unit of light cav for this purpose. Light cavalry are not just good for pursuing routers however, they can be invaluable for disrupting formations of archers or javelinmen.

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Originally Posted by HopAlongBunny

Javelins; except for the exceptional Jinette :)

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Javelins are truly useless - especially in the hands of the AI. I have been experimenting with some slav javelins and kerns lately and it has only reaffirmed my opinion. Even on hold formation, rather than skirmish, deployed directly in front of the battle line they are a dismal failure, as they can never seem to get a volley off before being charged head on. They're a little useful as bait I suppose, as they serve to lure enemy cavalry onto your waiting spears/pikes... but if they get caught up, they can trigger a chain rout.

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Originally Posted by LordK9

Rarely do I build urban militia as early spears are much better overall. Militia sergeants are also rarely built.

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Urban Militia are made redundant by Militia Sergeants, but early on they are useful if you have nothing else (e.g. Ghazis, Woodsmen, Vikings). Axe units are valuable as flankers, especially against cavalry, due to their AP ability. It's all about combined arms tactics. Spears are good pinning units (i.e. they are good at tying up cavalry and dying slowly) but using them alone to counter cavalry is a waste. Once the spears have the cavarly units engaged, you should bring in flanking units to do the actual killing. In the high era this is going to be the pole arms, such as the bills, halberdiers or JHI, but in early the axe units are best for this.

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Originally Posted by LordK9

As far as useless units, how about that AI? When I fight the Spanish (in early, at least), nothing but Jinnetes - a nice auxiliary but not a frontline unit. The Turks are mainly horse archers. In fact, archers of all types seem to be over built making enemies a walkover. Worse, once available, its all crossbows and regular archers eat them alive.

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This is because in auto resolve battles (the type of battle always played out in AI vs AI encounters) only the melee stats of units are taken into account.

There are too many x bow units in the vanilla game, it's that simple really. I usually mod the pavise variety to italian only and remove the standard ones from their roster, the arbalests can also be moved to late era only, making standard x bows more relevant.
@ferdi / @DEB8: UM are not really the source of the stars. Those are "hero generals" you are seeing who are set to appear at certain dates. In a typical English or French campaign, they don't appear as spear units due to the "general candidate" parameter. I believe this is set to as low as possible for spears, but is a notch or two higher for UM. If you train any hobilars you'll see most of those generals leading those units instead.

:bow:

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Originally Posted by caravel

Once the spears have the cavarly units engaged, you should bring in flanking units to do the actual killing. In the high era this is going to be the pole arms, such as the bills, halberdiers or JHI, but in early the axe units are best for this.

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In high era I do better than that. I don't use 2 units to counter 1 unit of cavalry. If you have polearms you don't need any spears to pin the cavs. The polearms both pin the cavs and do actual killing. You may help with the latter by flanking or/and rear-smiting with you own cavalry.

Spears have the advantage of 100/200 man units and tend to be cheaper to produce and support than polearms and are sufficient to hold the line. Besides having attacking units like polearms just standing there taking the pain doesn't sit right with me... if you mean that you use them aggressively against the AI cavalry, that would work in many cases - i.e. bodyguard units would be easy pickings, but not in the 3 hour battles against multiple waves of the GH MHC units...

I've even got good results with valoured up vanilla spearman with armour and morale upgrades when playing as the Byz - once the cavalry are held, bring the VG and Byzie infantry in on their flanks and it's all over...

In my experience most of the polearms - except for the JHI - are overrated, certainly halbs have pathetic morale are are too slow and bills just aren't armoured enough to survive prolonged melee...

I suppose it all depends on how you play the game. I play offensive battles very defensively and offensively at the same time. I like to keep my foot archers and x bows protected behind a spear wall and then advance the entire formation toward the enemy. This falls apart quickly if enemy cavalry can get to my missiles (I prefer that missiles do most of the killing) - and I don't want my offensive units tied up protecting the missiles, so that's where spears come in...

I usually put my archers ahead of the spears then retreat them through them as an attack develops. Otherwise, my archers are often out of range while my spears are picked apart.

I mentioned that I rarely build militia sergeants which you commented on. I never bumped this for that but that was after i had only played as the early "easy" factions (played exclusively VI prior to that) so I always had ax units. I now agree with you although I mainly use them as garrison units. Except in VI, there really isn't that much armor to deal with early on other then Saracen infantry.

I am currently playing the Hungarians and I find that, for them, feudal sergeants are fairly useless as the armored spearmen arrive at the same time and do just as well (as far as I can tell) but have a lower maintenance cost.

There is no thing like useless unit. I think people underestimate some units because they don't need them. If you play right your army is usually more advanced than any AI army. Because each side can field maximum of 16 units technological superiority plays a big role. But if you start with a small, poor faction or use a challenging mod things change a lot. You just don't have enough time or money to build all needed infrastructure. You have to fight immediately with a limited variety of simple units. This is where the fun starts. There is no bigger sanctification than winning a battle against an enemy which army is superior in every aspect (better units, better general, more soldiers, higher morale. etc.). This is the moment when units like horse archers start to shine. I love horse archers. I've won a lot of normally hopeless battles with support of 2 mere HA units. They are pathetic at first look but they don't really need to kill anybody. There are the best at running around and drawing attention of as many units as they can. One HA unit can easily be chased by 2-3 enemy units while the rest of enemy army still advancing towards your main forces. It means that you can locally outnumber the enemy. 14 units of yours against 10-12 of the enemy is usually enough to start the fleeing chain reaction. All that HAs need is a little morale boost to counter the penalties when they are running far away from the army and general with bunch of enemy soldiers on their backs.

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Originally Posted by LordK9

I usually put my archers ahead of the spears then retreat them through them as an attack develops. Otherwise, my archers are often out of range while my spears are picked apart.

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I'd rather my spears were "deflecting" arrows, than have archers up front soaking them up... I tend to put x bows up front, as when deployed behind the lines they have a tendency to shoot their friends in the back (or not shoot at all in trying not to)... it all depends on, the battle, the terrain, etc though... crossbows at least have some armour, whereas vanilla archers have none at all and a -2 defence penalty.

Relying on skirmish mode is another "best laid plans", tactic, it's better to turn it off and use drag selection and then CTRL+R to quickly redeploy missile units behind the lines.

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Originally Posted by LordK9

I mentioned that I rarely build militia sergeants which you commented on. I never bumped this for that but that was after i had only played as the early "easy" factions (played exclusively VI prior to that) so I always had ax units. I now agree with you although I mainly use them as garrison units. Except in VI, there really isn't that much armor to deal with early on other then Saracen infantry.

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There are various armoured cavalry (including bodyguards) around in the early era such as kats, FMAA, saracens, AHC and others - but yes the heavier armour comes later on and this is where the axe units come in handy...

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Originally Posted by LordK9

I am currently playing the Hungarians and I find that, for them, feudal sergeants are fairly useless as the armored spearmen arrive at the same time and do just as well (as far as I can tell) but have a lower maintenance cost.

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Feudal Sergeants: Charge 5, Melee 0, Defence -1, Armour 1, Morale 2
Armoured Spearmen: Charge 5, Melee -1, Defence 2, Armour 3, Morale 0

Statistically Armoured Spearmen are indeed better value for money, in fact they're more comparable to Chiv Sergeants/Saracens:

Charge 5, Melee -1, Defence 3, Armour 3, Morale 0

As with all spears they benefit from the large shield and cavalry attack/defence bonuses (1/4) and the +2 from "hold formation" (-2 attack).

To see what is really going on, the F1 during battle is invaluable...

(bill/halberd units get 3/1 cavalry attack defence - thus they are not as good defensively)

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Originally Posted by Stazi

There is no thing like useless unit.

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Peasants, ballistae and javelins. ~;)

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Originally Posted by Stazi

I think people underestimate some units because they don't need them.

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This is very true... everyone has their own preferences as to how to get the job done. I don't really play just to win, but to win with style and minimal losses. This is why I dislike the idea of placing expensive polearm units at the front and watching them get shot at and charged...

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Originally Posted by Stazi

If you play right your army is usually more advanced than any AI army. Because each side can field maximum of 16 units technological superiority plays a big role.

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Well not necessarily, because even a technologically superior force can get worn down, run out of ammo, boil in their armour in the desert, etc... and then the AI can bring on reinforcements of vanilla HAs...

What does play a big role in SP battles is terrain and a good general. General's stars turn cowards into killers. So if you have FS with a 7 star general and the AI has CS with a 3 star, it's obvious who has superiority...

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Originally Posted by Stazi

But if you start with a small, poor faction or use a challenging mod things change a lot. You just don't have enough time or money to build all needed infrastructure. You have to fight immediately with a limited variety of simple units. This is where the fun starts.

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Absolutely agreed on that point - making do with the mediocre units is what makes the game. If anyone gets to the point of "why bother when I can spam and bumrush tons of huscarles?" - they may as well play RTW (+)...

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Originally Posted by Stazi

There is no bigger sanctification than winning a battle against an enemy which army is superior in every aspect (better units, better general, more soldiers, higher morale. etc.).

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Agreed.

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Originally Posted by Stazi

This is the moment when units like horse archers start to shine. I love horse archers. I've won a lot of normally hopeless battles with support of 2 mere HA units. They are pathetic at first look but they don't really need to kill anybody. There are the best at running around and drawing attention of as many units as they can. One HA unit can easily be chased by 2-3 enemy units while the rest of enemy army still advancing towards your main forces. It means that you can locally outnumber the enemy. 14 units of yours against 10-12 of the enemy is usually enough to start the fleeing chain reaction. All that HAs need is a little morale boost to counter the penalties when they are running far away from the army and general with bunch of enemy soldiers on their backs.

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Absolutely...

HAs suffer from the "benny hill code" (constant retreat) which means that they will suffer morale penalties and rout from constantly avoiding engagement. To offset this order them to attack and then cancel it every now and again and it will be reset.

Units under missile fire suffer morale penalties as do those without flank protection, HAs can pull off both of these very effectively. In the case of Turcoman Horse they can also be ordered to charge once they've worn down the enemy units enough - which is why they are one of my personal favourites.

:bow:

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Originally Posted by caravel

HAs suffer from the "benny hill code" (constant retreat) which means that they will suffer morale penalties and rout from constantly avoiding engagement. To offset this order them to attack and then cancel it every now and again and it will be reset.:bow:

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Hi Chaps

Now that's the sort of tip that, despite ten years of playing..., keeps me coming back to the sit at the feet of Les MTW Grognards. :2thumbsup:

Thanks Caravel.

Best regards
Victor

Saper aude
Horace

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Originally Posted by caravel

Peasants, ballistae and javelins. ~;)

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Ah ballistae, the epitome of a wasted roster slot. Immobile, easily routed, and capable of killing 40 men max.

Javelins aren't completely useless, it's just that they have a limited function and it's usually best to fill the roster slot with something else. I did find a great situation for javelins once, so I built them specifically for one battle. The AI had a stack of several royal bodyguards and not much else in one province, and I tried to come up the least painful way to assault it. So I made a stack of spears and javelins, pinned the royals with the spears, and ran the javelins behind them. Easy-peasy, then promptly disbanded the javelins...

RE: In the case of Turcoman Horse they can also be ordered to charge once they've worn down the enemy units enough - which is why they are one of my personal favourites.

Isn't that true of all mounted archers once they run out of arrows? It would be nice to order a charge whenever needed rather then just have them ride through somebody, though. Apparently the AI can do this. Heavy steppe cavalry seem to have a decent charge (once their arrows are gone). The AI loves to charge my HAs with Mongol HAs without firing a single shot.

With archers and horse archers you can hold alt while clicking to attack while they still have arrows. (While holding alt the mouse icon will change from a bow to a sword)

With Turcoman Horse 'they can be ordered to charge' meaning because their stats are good enough that they can also be used as light cavalry, whereas vanilla HA are too weak to do so.

I personally prefer units like Byzantine Cavalry or Boyars; While they are slower than light horse archers which makes them not as good at skirmishing, they are much more durable and have even better attack.
And with the armor especially it makes them much better at missile dueling with all the vanilla HA the factions surrounding the Byzantines and Russians have.

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Originally Posted by caravel

Peasants, ballistae and javelins. ~;)

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Peasants!! They are great!~;) Once I've been fighting with 5 peasant units against 2 boyars and won. No generals on both sides but forest helped a lot :). Pyrrhic victory but who cares about peasants' lives. They did their job.

ballistae - yes... it's hard to say something good about it. It works a little better if you change that its missile can pierce through soldiers bodies but still nothing spectacular.

javelins - are deadly if used right. The problem is that they need a lot of micromanagement so they are not worth the effort.

Thanks for the HAs attack tip:bow:. Good to still find something new after all these years.

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Originally Posted by LordK9

Isn't that true of all mounted archers once they run out of arrows?

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Turcoman Horse are vanilla Horse Archers but with +2 melee and the regional valour bonus when trained in Tripoli. They perform decently against weakened infantry and are better at mopping up routs. They cost a bit more but with the same support costs, so who would train vanilla HA's?

There are of course statistically better HA units, but they are slower and more expensive (Mamluk Horse Archers being a good example of HA's which just aren't worth it for all of these reasons).

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Originally Posted by Nagnar

I personally prefer units like Byzantine Cavalry or Boyars; While they are slower than light horse archers which makes them not as good at skirmishing, they are much more durable and have even better attack.

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While Boyars are solid units, due to their impressive overall stats, as with all horse archers types, the presence of a ranged weapon always means that their charge stat is nerfed (usually roughly half that what it should be for their "weight" class). Any medium or heavy cavalry with reduced charge are simply not as effective and it's rarely good to have any kind of cavalry tied up in a melee for too long. The first charge needs to count as if the target manages to shrug it off and your cavalry gets pinned down, it means longer in a melee you will find it difficult to extract them from, taking more losses, etc.

To me the reduced speed and the extra armour is also a factor as they tire faster and cannot catch routers as effectively...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nagnar

And with the armor especially it makes them much better at missile dueling with all the vanilla HA the factions surrounding the Byzantines and Russians have.

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This has been debated at length in the past and as with many others, I don't see the value or the need for archery duels... you have to take the following factors into account:

- Foot archers use a slightly more accurate bow to the horse archers, otherwise it's the same (there is no historical precedence for this, it's simply "game design").

- Foot archers are in 60 man units, horse archers in 40 man/horse units.

- Even if you win the duel, the unit you're left with isn't going to be much use.

This means that in a duel on flat land with equal stats, foot archers have automatic superiority.

If the horse archers are better armoured, they will have higher survivability vs sbows thus, they will have superiority, but will still be shooting smaller volleys due to the smaller unit size.

But this last point doesn't answer the question... why would a superior unit like Byzantine Cavalry stand around dueling with vanilla foot archers? If armour is what's reducing their losses, then it's time to use that advantage to the full, find them a better target for their missiles and let other units deal with the enemy's foot archers in a more direct manner.

The use i was referring to was to shoot at other lighter horse archers like vanilla HA, Turcoman horse etc. Using any kind of HA to duel with foot archers would be madness!
I'm surprised some people have thought that would be a good idea :inquisitive:

Also as a further clarification; I don't buy them just for this role, its just one of the uses i have for them.

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Originally Posted by Nagnar

With archers and horse archers you can hold alt while clicking to attack while they still have arrows. (While holding alt the mouse icon will change from a bow to a sword)

With Turcoman Horse 'they can be ordered to charge' meaning because their stats are good enough that they can also be used as light cavalry, whereas vanilla HA are too weak to do so.

I personally prefer units like Byzantine Cavalry or Boyars; While they are slower than light horse archers which makes them not as good at skirmishing, they are much more durable and have even better attack.
And with the armor especially it makes them much better at missile dueling with all the vanilla HA the factions surrounding the Byzantines and Russians have.

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Wow! All this time lamenting about inability to charge and it is actually possible. Many thanks! (I wonder how many other obscure things can be done that I have no knowledge of - I do miss the days of hundred page rule books)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nagnar

The use i was referring to was to shoot at other lighter horse archers like vanilla HA, Turcoman horse etc. Using any kind of HA to duel with foot archers would be madness!
I'm surprised some people have thought that would be a good idea :inquisitive:

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You're quite right, you did refer to HA's and not foot archers...

However, archery duels apply to pretty much any kind of archer vs archer scenario... They're even more pointless if you have a unit like Byzantine Cavalry involved. You want them targeting the units which will be the most challenging in melee or those which might trigger a chain rout, not their low value horse archers, whom your Byz Cav can easily beat in melee (if they can catch them). The Byz units have better defence and armour, thus better survivability, so you are in a position where you can ignore the archers, and target the units which you will have most difficulty facing in melee...

Speaking of chain routs, playing as the English (started in early, now well into the high era - playing on hard difficulty), I was facing the Hungarians last night in Venice. They brought 16 full units led by a 4 star general mostly made up of mounted x bows, militia sergeants, CKs, arbalests and CMAA. As I recall there must have been about six units of the mounted x bows altogether...

My line up consisted of 2 units of billmen, 1 unit of chiv sergeants, 2 hobilars, 2 feudal knights, 1 unit of longbows, 1 unit of archers and a few other misc units of e.g. MS, clansmen, FS, etc to make up 16 units (like the AI I also had a few non battle worthy rag tag reinforcements.

Now these fellows were fairy high valour, well battered crusade veterans newly returned from Algeria, I'd say about 5 valour on average and as I recall they were about 2000 men to the enemy's 2500 - but I considered us to have the overall advantage from the start - the main worry being seizing the terrain advantage and dealing with the mounted crossbows.

It began with the enemy in a typical line up, and then repositioning his formation as soon as my motley crew slowly trudged for his right flank... this went on for more than 5 minutes without a shot exchanged. By this time my army was starting to get within bowshot, my men were showing two bars (quite tired).

I decided to detach the cavalry and have them take up a position on an adjacent slope... this, or mere whimsy, caused the Hungarians to attempt to abandon their position and seize another piece of high ground - and this was their first and last error.

Their whole army decamped and headed in a column downhill of my formation taking it past my waiting spear/bill units and within bowshot. I let off a few volleys and then seized the opportunity and charged the mounted crossbows with the bills and CS...

The result was pretty much insta-rout and at that point I threw everything I had at them...

200 killed, over 700 prisoners and about 20 losses...

Hardly a stunning victory, but the point being that patience often pays higher dividends than archery duels...

:bow:

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Originally Posted by LordK9

Wow! All this time lamenting about inability to charge and it is actually possible. Many thanks! (I wonder how many other obscure things can be done that I have no knowledge of - I do miss the days of hundred page rule books)

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Looks like you've never played the tutorial. Try it. It's good.

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Originally Posted by Stazi

Looks like you've never played the tutorial. Try it. It's good.

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And there is always the manual. Try it too. It's gooder.

Did the tutorial and read the manual. Didn't remember that little tidbit, though (likely because in VI there isn't much in the way of mounted archers (I think the Picts might have had mounted crossbows but I find most (sorry guys) mounted archers not all, that useful so generally have 0-2 in my army). Not sure where the manual is now - that may be the problem :)

I don't remember playing the tutorial in MTW... but probably (I think that's the one where the Scots (rebels) invade?). I learned the basics from the tutorial in STW, in that first battle you have a unit of SA vs the enemy's YS, you cannot win the battle unless you take up the best position, hit them with enough volleys to bring their numbers down and then charge them.

HA's are tricky to get used to. When anyone starts out with HAs they will have a few disasters. Controlling large numbers is very tricky, especially if like me you do not use pause, but you do get used to it if you persevere. I find that that skirmish mode has little usefulness for HAs (it effectively means you're not in control - and skirmishing doesn't work that well for foot archers either) unless you feel they're safe enough and want to concentrate on another area of the battle.

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Originally Posted by LordK9

Not sure where the manual is now - that may be the problem :)

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I can send you a pdf-format manual if you give me your e-mail or any other contact. And there is always "A beginner's guide to MTW" which contained a bunch of eye-openers for me even after 5 or so years of playing.

To save Gildrandir the trouble, I had a look here: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/local....php?catid=166

Which turned up these...

MTW-GoldManual.zip: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/local...tid=166&id=786
Medieval_Total_war_manual.zip: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/local...tid=166&id=777
MTW-VI_tech_tree.zip: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/local...tid=166&id=743

Haven't checked them myself, but might be worth a look...


Also the guides section: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/forum...47-M-TW-Guides

I've not read any of that myself, but I've no doubt you'll find it useful - especially frog's guide.


And of course the numerology thread at .com:

http://shoguntotalwar.yuku.com/topic...umerology.html (original archived site)
http://forums.totalwar.com/showthrea...War-Numerology (recreated thread at the new live forums)

:bow:

Gilrandir, thanks for the offer. It looks like using this site's on-line manuals will save us both some effort (thanks Caravel). But dog gone it, now I don't have an excuse! I had hard copies so it never occurred to me to look online (duh!).

Keeping with HAs, there's the (replay of a) Custom Battle: Learning to Micromanage Horse Archers in the Downloads - Battles, custom section. I'm not sure of its compatibility with VI, though.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Plato

Keeping with HAs, there's the (replay of a) Custom Battle: Learning to Micromanage Horse Archers in the Downloads - Battles, custom section. I'm not sure of its compatibility with VI, though.

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I followed the link, found a zip file there and copied it to my computer. But I don't know how to watch the battle. The files in the archive do not seem to be videos. My asking may seem foolish but is there a hidden catch one must know to enjoy the experience others had?

It's a replay, so you watch it in the game. Can't remember where you have to put the file, I'll check when I get home tonight.

Methinks that means the answer is, "yes". :laugh4:

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Originally Posted by drone

It's a replay, so you watch it in the game. Can't remember where you have to put the file, I'll check when I get home tonight.

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That replay does work for VI, you need to put the .vrp file in the Medieval - Total War\SaveGames\Battles directory. In the game, Main Menu->Single Player->View Replays gets you to the replay.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by drone

That replay does work for VI, you need to put the .vrp file in the Medieval - Total War\SaveGames\Battles directory. In the game, Main Menu->Single Player->View Replays gets you to the replay.

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:bow: Did it as you said. Don't have time to watch it, though. When I do I hope it will work alright.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by drone

That replay does work for VI

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Seemingly it was created in/for VI since it doesn't work for me with vanilla MTW v1.1. Having saved a replay of my own, that had a suffix .mrp - so I'm guessing there's a distinction to be made:

.mrp Medieval RePlay
.vrp Viking (Invasion) RePlay

Can those recorded in MTW be viewed with VI?

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Originally Posted by Gilrandir

:bow: Did it as you said. Don't have time to watch it, though. When I do I hope it will work alright.

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Well, it didn't. When I wanted to watch the replay the game crashed and I was back again at my Windows screen. Repeated the procedure a couple of times - the outcome is the same. Probably my russianized game does not tolerate any introductions from without and won't show them. But can others see what I would like to share? How can I make one of my replays available for the MTW community? Advice is welcome. But remember - no brainy descriptions and lengthy explanations for me. Just some step-by-step foolproof instructions.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Plato

Can those recorded in MTW be viewed with VI?

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Yes, they can... However, you will have to change the "m" to a "v" in the file-extension. The bad news is that the reverse don't seem possible - CTD. Furthermore, you probably must have identical/same versions of MTW on both ends for this to work, raw MTW or Redux (RXB1003) will work. I can't think of any other possible candidates at the moment. Umm... Possibly the Italy Total War-alteration might perhaps work as well. I don't know.

- A