Useless units?

[Trapped in Samsara]

HAs suffer from the "benny hill code" (constant retreat) which means that they will suffer morale penalties and rout from constantly avoiding engagement. To offset this order them to attack and then cancel it every now and again and it will be reset.

Hi Chaps

Now that's the sort of tip that, despite ten years of playing..., keeps me coming back to the sit at the feet of Les MTW Grognards.

Thanks Caravel.

Best regards
Victor

Saper aude
Horace

[drone]

Peasants, ballistae and javelins.

Ah ballistae, the epitome of a wasted roster slot. Immobile, easily routed, and capable of killing 40 men max.

Javelins aren't completely useless, it's just that they have a limited function and it's usually best to fill the roster slot with something else. I did find a great situation for javelins once, so I built them specifically for one battle. The AI had a stack of several royal bodyguards and not much else in one province, and I tried to come up the least painful way to assault it. So I made a stack of spears and javelins, pinned the royals with the spears, and ran the javelins behind them. Easy-peasy, then promptly disbanded the javelins...

[LordK9]

RE: In the case of Turcoman Horse they can also be ordered to charge once they've worn down the enemy units enough - which is why they are one of my personal favourites.

Isn't that true of all mounted archers once they run out of arrows? It would be nice to order a charge whenever needed rather then just have them ride through somebody, though. Apparently the AI can do this. Heavy steppe cavalry seem to have a decent charge (once their arrows are gone). The AI loves to charge my HAs with Mongol HAs without firing a single shot.

[Nagnar]

With archers and horse archers you can hold alt while clicking to attack while they still have arrows. (While holding alt the mouse icon will change from a bow to a sword)

With Turcoman Horse 'they can be ordered to charge' meaning because their stats are good enough that they can also be used as light cavalry, whereas vanilla HA are too weak to do so.

I personally prefer units like Byzantine Cavalry or Boyars; While they are slower than light horse archers which makes them not as good at skirmishing, they are much more durable and have even better attack.
And with the armor especially it makes them much better at missile dueling with all the vanilla HA the factions surrounding the Byzantines and Russians have.

[Stazi]

Peasants, ballistae and javelins.

Peasants!! They are great! Once I've been fighting with 5 peasant units against 2 boyars and won. No generals on both sides but forest helped a lot :). Pyrrhic victory but who cares about peasants' lives. They did their job.

ballistae - yes... it's hard to say something good about it. It works a little better if you change that its missile can pierce through soldiers bodies but still nothing spectacular.

javelins - are deadly if used right. The problem is that they need a lot of micromanagement so they are not worth the effort.

Thanks for the HAs attack tip. Good to still find something new after all these years.

[caravel]

Isn't that true of all mounted archers once they run out of arrows?

Turcoman Horse are vanilla Horse Archers but with +2 melee and the regional valour bonus when trained in Tripoli. They perform decently against weakened infantry and are better at mopping up routs. They cost a bit more but with the same support costs, so who would train vanilla HA's?

There are of course statistically better HA units, but they are slower and more expensive (Mamluk Horse Archers being a good example of HA's which just aren't worth it for all of these reasons).

[caravel]

I personally prefer units like Byzantine Cavalry or Boyars; While they are slower than light horse archers which makes them not as good at skirmishing, they are much more durable and have even better attack.

While Boyars are solid units, due to their impressive overall stats, as with all horse archers types, the presence of a ranged weapon always means that their charge stat is nerfed (usually roughly half that what it should be for their "weight" class). Any medium or heavy cavalry with reduced charge are simply not as effective and it's rarely good to have any kind of cavalry tied up in a melee for too long. The first charge needs to count as if the target manages to shrug it off and your cavalry gets pinned down, it means longer in a melee you will find it difficult to extract them from, taking more losses, etc.

To me the reduced speed and the extra armour is also a factor as they tire faster and cannot catch routers as effectively...

And with the armor especially it makes them much better at missile dueling with all the vanilla HA the factions surrounding the Byzantines and Russians have.

This has been debated at length in the past and as with many others, I don't see the value or the need for archery duels... you have to take the following factors into account:

- Foot archers use a slightly more accurate bow to the horse archers, otherwise it's the same (there is no historical precedence for this, it's simply "game design").

- Foot archers are in 60 man units, horse archers in 40 man/horse units.

- Even if you win the duel, the unit you're left with isn't going to be much use.

This means that in a duel on flat land with equal stats, foot archers have automatic superiority.

If the horse archers are better armoured, they will have higher survivability vs sbows thus, they will have superiority, but will still be shooting smaller volleys due to the smaller unit size.

But this last point doesn't answer the question... why would a superior unit like Byzantine Cavalry stand around dueling with vanilla foot archers? If armour is what's reducing their losses, then it's time to use that advantage to the full, find them a better target for their missiles and let other units deal with the enemy's foot archers in a more direct manner.

[Nagnar]

The use i was referring to was to shoot at other lighter horse archers like vanilla HA, Turcoman horse etc. Using any kind of HA to duel with foot archers would be madness!
I'm surprised some people have thought that would be a good idea

Also as a further clarification; I don't buy them just for this role, its just one of the uses i have for them.

[LordK9]

With archers and horse archers you can hold alt while clicking to attack while they still have arrows. (While holding alt the mouse icon will change from a bow to a sword)

With Turcoman Horse 'they can be ordered to charge' meaning because their stats are good enough that they can also be used as light cavalry, whereas vanilla HA are too weak to do so.

I personally prefer units like Byzantine Cavalry or Boyars; While they are slower than light horse archers which makes them not as good at skirmishing, they are much more durable and have even better attack.
And with the armor especially it makes them much better at missile dueling with all the vanilla HA the factions surrounding the Byzantines and Russians have.

Wow! All this time lamenting about inability to charge and it is actually possible. Many thanks! (I wonder how many other obscure things can be done that I have no knowledge of - I do miss the days of hundred page rule books)

[caravel]

The use i was referring to was to shoot at other lighter horse archers like vanilla HA, Turcoman horse etc. Using any kind of HA to duel with foot archers would be madness!
I'm surprised some people have thought that would be a good idea

You're quite right, you did refer to HA's and not foot archers...

However, archery duels apply to pretty much any kind of archer vs archer scenario... They're even more pointless if you have a unit like Byzantine Cavalry involved. You want them targeting the units which will be the most challenging in melee or those which might trigger a chain rout, not their low value horse archers, whom your Byz Cav can easily beat in melee (if they can catch them). The Byz units have better defence and armour, thus better survivability, so you are in a position where you can ignore the archers, and target the units which you will have most difficulty facing in melee...

Speaking of chain routs, playing as the English (started in early, now well into the high era - playing on hard difficulty), I was facing the Hungarians last night in Venice. They brought 16 full units led by a 4 star general mostly made up of mounted x bows, militia sergeants, CKs, arbalests and CMAA. As I recall there must have been about six units of the mounted x bows altogether...

My line up consisted of 2 units of billmen, 1 unit of chiv sergeants, 2 hobilars, 2 feudal knights, 1 unit of longbows, 1 unit of archers and a few other misc units of e.g. MS, clansmen, FS, etc to make up 16 units (like the AI I also had a few non battle worthy rag tag reinforcements.

Now these fellows were fairy high valour, well battered crusade veterans newly returned from Algeria, I'd say about 5 valour on average and as I recall they were about 2000 men to the enemy's 2500 - but I considered us to have the overall advantage from the start - the main worry being seizing the terrain advantage and dealing with the mounted crossbows.

It began with the enemy in a typical line up, and then repositioning his formation as soon as my motley crew slowly trudged for his right flank... this went on for more than 5 minutes without a shot exchanged. By this time my army was starting to get within bowshot, my men were showing two bars (quite tired).

I decided to detach the cavalry and have them take up a position on an adjacent slope... this, or mere whimsy, caused the Hungarians to attempt to abandon their position and seize another piece of high ground - and this was their first and last error.

Their whole army decamped and headed in a column downhill of my formation taking it past my waiting spear/bill units and within bowshot. I let off a few volleys and then seized the opportunity and charged the mounted crossbows with the bills and CS...

The result was pretty much insta-rout and at that point I threw everything I had at them...

200 killed, over 700 prisoners and about 20 losses...

Hardly a stunning victory, but the point being that patience often pays higher dividends than archery duels...

[Stazi]

Wow! All this time lamenting about inability to charge and it is actually possible. Many thanks! (I wonder how many other obscure things can be done that I have no knowledge of - I do miss the days of hundred page rule books)

Looks like you've never played the tutorial. Try it. It's good.

[Gilrandir]

Looks like you've never played the tutorial. Try it. It's good.

And there is always the manual. Try it too. It's gooder.

[LordK9]

Did the tutorial and read the manual. Didn't remember that little tidbit, though (likely because in VI there isn't much in the way of mounted archers (I think the Picts might have had mounted crossbows but I find most (sorry guys) mounted archers not all, that useful so generally have 0-2 in my army). Not sure where the manual is now - that may be the problem :)

[caravel]

I don't remember playing the tutorial in MTW... but probably (I think that's the one where the Scots (rebels) invade?). I learned the basics from the tutorial in STW, in that first battle you have a unit of SA vs the enemy's YS, you cannot win the battle unless you take up the best position, hit them with enough volleys to bring their numbers down and then charge them.

HA's are tricky to get used to. When anyone starts out with HAs they will have a few disasters. Controlling large numbers is very tricky, especially if like me you do not use pause, but you do get used to it if you persevere. I find that that skirmish mode has little usefulness for HAs (it effectively means you're not in control - and skirmishing doesn't work that well for foot archers either) unless you feel they're safe enough and want to concentrate on another area of the battle.

[Gilrandir]

Not sure where the manual is now - that may be the problem :)

I can send you a pdf-format manual if you give me your e-mail or any other contact. And there is always "A beginner's guide to MTW" which contained a bunch of eye-openers for me even after 5 or so years of playing.

[caravel]

To save Gildrandir the trouble, I had a look here: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/local....php?catid=166

Which turned up these...

MTW-GoldManual.zip: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/local...tid=166&id=786
Medieval_Total_war_manual.zip: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/local...tid=166&id=777
MTW-VI_tech_tree.zip: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/local...tid=166&id=743

Haven't checked them myself, but might be worth a look...


Also the guides section: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/forum...47-M-TW-Guides

I've not read any of that myself, but I've no doubt you'll find it useful - especially frog's guide.


And of course the numerology thread at .com:

http://shoguntotalwar.yuku.com/topic...umerology.html (original archived site)
http://forums.totalwar.com/showthrea...War-Numerology (recreated thread at the new live forums)

[LordK9]

Gilrandir, thanks for the offer. It looks like using this site's on-line manuals will save us both some effort (thanks Caravel). But dog gone it, now I don't have an excuse! I had hard copies so it never occurred to me to look online (duh!).

[Plato]

Keeping with HAs, there's the (replay of a) Custom Battle: Learning to Micromanage Horse Archers in the Downloads - Battles, custom section. I'm not sure of its compatibility with VI, though.

[Gilrandir]

Keeping with HAs, there's the (replay of a) Custom Battle: Learning to Micromanage Horse Archers in the Downloads - Battles, custom section. I'm not sure of its compatibility with VI, though.

I followed the link, found a zip file there and copied it to my computer. But I don't know how to watch the battle. The files in the archive do not seem to be videos. My asking may seem foolish but is there a hidden catch one must know to enjoy the experience others had?

[drone]

It's a replay, so you watch it in the game. Can't remember where you have to put the file, I'll check when I get home tonight.

[LordK9]

Methinks that means the answer is, "yes".

[drone]

It's a replay, so you watch it in the game. Can't remember where you have to put the file, I'll check when I get home tonight.

That replay does work for VI, you need to put the .vrp file in the Medieval - Total War\SaveGames\Battles directory. In the game, Main Menu->Single Player->View Replays gets you to the replay.

[Gilrandir]

That replay does work for VI, you need to put the .vrp file in the Medieval - Total War\SaveGames\Battles directory. In the game, Main Menu->Single Player->View Replays gets you to the replay.

Did it as you said. Don't have time to watch it, though. When I do I hope it will work alright.

[Plato]

That replay does work for VI

Seemingly it was created in/for VI since it doesn't work for me with vanilla MTW v1.1. Having saved a replay of my own, that had a suffix .mrp - so I'm guessing there's a distinction to be made:

.mrp Medieval RePlay
.vrp Viking (Invasion) RePlay

Can those recorded in MTW be viewed with VI?

[Gilrandir]

Did it as you said. Don't have time to watch it, though. When I do I hope it will work alright.

Well, it didn't. When I wanted to watch the replay the game crashed and I was back again at my Windows screen. Repeated the procedure a couple of times - the outcome is the same. Probably my russianized game does not tolerate any introductions from without and won't show them. But can others see what I would like to share? How can I make one of my replays available for the MTW community? Advice is welcome. But remember - no brainy descriptions and lengthy explanations for me. Just some step-by-step foolproof instructions.

[Axalon]

Can those recorded in MTW be viewed with VI?

Yes, they can... However, you will have to change the "m" to a "v" in the file-extension. The bad news is that the reverse don't seem possible - CTD. Furthermore, you probably must have identical/same versions of MTW on both ends for this to work, raw MTW or Redux (RXB1003) will work. I can't think of any other possible candidates at the moment. Umm... Possibly the Italy Total War-alteration might perhaps work as well. I don't know.

- A