It was a good run fellas. We are now unwashed
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-18100457
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It was a good run fellas. We are now unwashed
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-18100457
Heh, you've just gone from the unwashed masses to simply being the unwashed, you'll survive.
Might have to give the Cession States back then soQuote:
Originally Posted by Strike For The South
Texas naturally gets independence.
I can only guess as to what the consequences of this will be.
I know that there is this perception that the USA is somehow unique in that it can supposedly function and prosper even if it lacks the homogenous population that is usually required for a successful nation state. And I think this idea comes from the fact that it was historically populated by a lot of different ethnic groups.
Of course it is usually pointed out that the Germans or the Irish were once regarded in much the same way as Hispanics are nowadays. But I think that was different... those groups were so similar to the typical white American in terms of culture, religion, and at a more base level, even appearance.
With Hispanics, integration might not be so easy. Although crucially, they are at least part of the Christian world, which goes a long way to helping them fit it, as the experience of Europe with Muslims shows.
But don't think the USA is untouchable in terms of its territorial or cultural integrity. If you fill a country with third world people you are going to get third world problems. I suppose a lot will hinge on how well those born to 1st generation Mexican immigrants integrate.
That kind of sums it up imho.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhyfhylwyr
Yea! Now I can start calling people who don't look like me racist! :party:
I have a lot of Hispanic friends and I deal with Hispanic people on a regular basis at work and I've been under the impression that they integrate pretty well for the most part. The only Hispanics I've met that didn't speak English were either newly immigrated or older. Some Latinos that were born here don't even speak Spanish, or they speak it with a "white" accent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhyfhylwyr
The US is different from Europe in that our immigrants come from countries that border us directly, so certain parts of the US were saturated with the immigrant culture already. I think most of the problems that come from Hispanic immigration stem from the fact that thousands of them came here illegally, not because Latino culture can't integrate with American culture.
I always thought that with all the liberals in the USA something like this would be happy news.
It's neither happy nor unhappy. Nor is it news.Quote:
Originally Posted by rajpoot
This is only a concern for those who consider hispanics savages.
......Because? They are just people like everyone else and even conducting a census of this matter or discussing it means thinking they are different, and that is being racist to some degree?Quote:
Originally Posted by rvg
If that is really your reasoning then I doff my hat to you.
Yes, that is my reasoning.Quote:
Originally Posted by rajpoot
I fail to see how such a major demographic shift could not be considered news.Quote:
Originally Posted by rvg
Compared to the US mainstream, these people come from a different culture, a somewhat different religion, a different social class. They will vote differently, speak another language, celebrate different festivals, eat different foods. Their presence brings major political and social implications.
Because these people have come in, even walking down the street will be a completely different experience for you if you live in the areas they do. I don't get how you can't see it as newsworthy.
Neither White nor Latin are the homogeneous, monolithic ethnic groups that you imply.
At any rate, we've had a few decades to get used to them. Latin cultures are not at all a foreign thing to Americans.
:inquisitive:Quote:
eat different foods
From my understanding of racial issues in the USA, it is largely determined by skin colour. While you would never talk about someone being ethnically white in Europe for obvious reasons, they seem to in the USA, for similarly obvious reasons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Montmorency
As I said it is quite possible that they do integrate and they do share some important cultural characteristics.Quote:
Originally Posted by Montmorency
As to my comments about their eating habbits, it's relevant. You might like a kebab or some pasta or a fajita or whatever other ethnic foods there are but we are not talking about a bit of variety, we are talking about these becoming dominant.
If you have a massive cultural shift then it's going to affect what you can buy in the shops. That matters more to me than the political side of things. :shrug:
Eat different foods? What like potato which yields four times per acre more food calories then wheat. Or corn or chocolate?
I'd like to see a Britain function without potato, corn or chocolate.
Latinos are a mix already of old world and European and African and Japanese and Chinese to differing degrees. They speak Spanish and Portugese, which the last time I looked was a European language.
So you have some of the favourite food staples in Europe, European colonial descendants and major European languages.
I thought the article said that white - non - Hispanics are now minority.
So it's not more than 50% Hispanics, it's more than 50% Hispanics combined with Africans, Asians and so on...
Anyway, yes it will lead to a change in national identity, of course.
THIS used to be the picture we had of USA.
Of course, I would prefer Hispanics to the Somalis and Afghanis Sweden for some reason seem so fond of.
As a PS, I seriously think USA will break in the next 10 years. The gap between the rich and poor grows wider by the day, and that is only still working because of the American Dream. But hey, soon people will realize that they happily would give up a chance to be filthy rich, in return for food on the table, a steady home, and maybe even a little vacation - without having 3 jobs.
Of course you will. That's because you approach this from a European perspective.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhyfhylwyr
Wrong. We're talking about babies being born here in the good ole US of A, exposed to American culture, speaking English pretty much everywhere outside of their home. As for religion, Catholicism has been the single largest denomination here for many decades already.Quote:
Compared to the US mainstream, these people come from a different culture, a somewhat different religion, a different social class. They will vote differently, speak another language, celebrate different festivals, eat different foods. Their presence brings major political and social implications.
Really? Should I begin to expect something different from my Colombian next door neighbor?Quote:
Because these people have come in, even walking down the street will be a completely different experience for you if you live in the areas they do. I don't get how you can't see it as newsworthy.
I'm afraid I can't take this seriously. I live in New York City.
This in particular is silly.Quote:
[...]we are talking about these becoming dominant.
If you have a massive cultural shift then it's going to affect what you can buy in the shops. That matters more to me than the political side of things.
You have obviously never been to Southern California.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhyfhylwyr
This thread and the replies from the yanks here shows me once again that Europe still has a lot to learn from the US.
I'm sorry but I have to say I expected this sort of complacency from the Americans on this board.
So apparently I'm wrong because I'm looking at this from a "European perspective". The thing is, there's no reason to believe that if certain patterns are observed in Europe and the same conditions existed in the USA, the patterns could not be observed there as well.
I know there is this idea that America is somehow immune to Balkanization, and that it is infinitely superior to any other nation on the planet and its supposedly tolerant and diverse nature means that it can assimilate any ethnic group.
But there's no reason to believe all that. Your ability to assimilate different immigrant groups is a national myth. American might think the Irish or Germans count, but tbh in Europe if somebody moved from one (western) European state to another, I don't think they would even be considered an immigrant by most people.
The fact is that the demographic changes taking place in America right now are unprecendented, America has never faced anything like it before.
And on the bit about food, I'll not quote every response I'll just answer them here. Firstly, no, I have never been to Southern California, in fact I never leave my 100% white chav-ridden neighbourhood. U MAD? And secondly, the point on New York is silly because it is in fact cosmopolitan and not dominated by any single ethnic group.
Neither would America be. That's the point. HenceQuote:
the point on New York is silly because it is in fact cosmopolitan and not dominated by any single ethnic group.
E.g. the rising numbers of Latin Evangelicals, both in (and out!) of the USQuote:
Neither White nor Latin are the homogeneous, monolithic ethnic groups that you imply.
Edit: Imprecision plagues this thread, as well.
Firstly: Hispanics, as per my point, can be black, white, Asian, what I might oxymoronically call "pure", etc.
Secondly: Kadagar's clarification seems to have passed unnotced. Hispanic births have been dropping over the last few years, due to the recession. All minority births combined have outpaced the Non-Hispanic white figures. Hispanics, in all their heterogeneity, seem to make up only a quarter of births.
Are you quite through with the alarmism?
Why are you sorry? It's great!Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhyfhylwyr
That's right. America is not Europe. Many of us might have European roots, but we're not Europeans. America is not a genetic pattern or a color of one's skin, it's a state of mind. Which is why anybody can become 100% American even if they were born and raised elsewhere.Quote:
So apparently I'm wrong because I'm looking at this from a "European perspective". The thing is, there's no reason to believe that if certain patterns are observed in Europe and the same conditions existed in the USA, the patterns could not be observed there as well.
We can and we do. What's our secret? We do not try to assimilate anybody. Nobody is required to learn English, nobody is required to accept American values or American culture. At the same time, we do not babysit anyone. Everyone is free to succeed or fail.Quote:
I know there is this idea that America is somehow immune to Balkanization, and that it is infinitely superior to any other nation on the planet and its supposedly tolerant and diverse nature means that it can assimilate any ethnic group.
I find that hard to believe. We hosted a couple of Germans from the parent corporation back a few months ago, and they just kept on harping about how they hate the Dutch. That was after we told them that there are lots of Dutch-Americans in Michigan.Quote:
But there's no reason to believe all that. Your ability to assimilate different immigrant groups is a national myth. American might think the Irish or Germans count, but tbh in Europe if somebody moved from one (western) European state to another, I don't think they would even be considered an immigrant by most people.
Been there done that. The Irish, the Chinese, the Jews, the [insert an ethnicity here].Quote:
The fact is that the demographic changes taking place in America right now are unprecendented, America has never faced anything like it before.
No. New York is a city. When a city is diverse you call it cosmopolitan. When a nation is racially divided by different ethnic groups each dominating their own respective parts of it, you call it racially divided. Because what functions at the city level doesn't necessarily translate to the national level.Quote:
Originally Posted by Montmorency
So this is the reality for a future white American in what has become 95% Hispanic Los Angeles. He will walk into a shop to get some burgers and roast chicken and whatever white Americans eat, when suddenly... all they sell is tacos nachos and fajitas. And every shop will be the same. And he will be left wondering how he became a stranger in his own country.
It will be like Chinatown, except the whole town in Chinatown.
Does it sound silly? Well, it won't be so funny when you walk outside your door and that's the reality.
If you read my posts you will see that I have acknowledged the cultural closeness and the integration that has already taken place. As I said, the issue is the pace of the demographic change, and whether it will reach a point where the assimilation starts taking place in the opposite direction.Quote:
Originally Posted by Montmorency
Gotta say, I don't really care very much. I never thought of "white people" as a team. :shrug:Quote:
Originally Posted by Strike For The South
I'm more concerned about the economic status of the people who are having kids and what it means for our long-term financial stability as a nation.
If you can love, raise a family and have grandchildren who cares which way your genes wandered out of the same patch of Africa.
This is nothing revolutionary, it is bog standard civic nationalism. The same type of nationalism that happens to be dominant in Britain and France, which continue to have serious problems integrating immigrants.Quote:
Originally Posted by rvg
You don't have a secret because you have never really assimilated anybody. Like I said, within Europe, the Irish or Germans wouldn't even count. It's not like we don't have small, successful Asian communities here. But when they start pouring in from the third world, there's gonna be problems.Quote:
Originally Posted by rvg
It's a bit of banter you get between neighbouring European states because of their history of conflict and rivalry. It just doesn't compare to say, the culture shock of modern Muslim immigrants. The culture shock aspect of Hispanic immigrants is probably somewhere in between. The might integrate they might not. I just think you are too complacent.Quote:
Originally Posted by rvg
I've covered these examples and like I said for you to be complacent based on those experiences just shows that you don't appreciate what is happening right now. IIRC black people make up something like 13% of the US population, so if their birth rates are fairly average then I would expect around 1/3 of the coming generation to be Hispanic (feel free to correct this if wrong).Quote:
Originally Posted by rvg
Now, I'm pretty sure that the Irish, Jews, or Chinese never made up anything like 1/3 of the US population. And out of those lot you only really assimilated the Irish.
What makes you so confident that having a massive Hispanic population won't significantly alter American culture, American politics, everyday American life etc.
The only thing that bothers me about Mexicans in particular (and I know that Mexicans only make up a portion of non-white minorities) is Mexico. They seem to have a higher tolerance for corruption, mismanagement, low productivity, and organized crime among many other negatives. The origins of the country are extremely similar to the US, but the culture and/or society just do not seem to work very well in comparison to the US (and I'm certainly not saying the US is perfect). I would hate for such bad habits to be carried over the border and then become commonly accepted as Mexicans become majorities in many areas.
Read my edit.
Your predictions are utterly invalid because your premises are utterly flawed.
This amply demonstrates what I mean...Quote:
So this is the reality for a future white American in what has become 95% Hispanic Los Angeles. He will walk into a shop to get some burgers and roast chicken and whatever white Americans eat, when suddenly... all they sell is tacos nachos and fajitas. And every shop will be the same. And he will be left wondering how he became a stranger in his own country.
Well, we don't have those problems.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhyfhylwyr
If you put it that way, then we really have nothing to worry about.Quote:
You don't have a secret because you have never really assimilated anybody.
Then do what we do: stop giving them money. Give nothing and expect nothing in return. Those of them who are worth something will float up, the losers will sink. Either way, they'll only have themselves to thank or to blame.Quote:
Like I said, within Europe, the Irish or Germans wouldn't even count. It's not like we don't have small, successful Asian communities here. But when they start pouring in from the third world, there's gonna be problems.
I will not dispute that there's more of a gap between euros and muslims than it is between gringos and latinos. Still, the problem is with the European approach to the problem: you're paying them, and expect them to change their ways in return. What you need to do is stop paying them and stop expecting anything. Once the gravy train stops, those who want to succeed will change accordingly.Quote:
It's a bit of banter you get between neighbouring European states because of their history of conflict and rivalry. It just doesn't compare to say, the culture shock of modern Muslim immigrants.
Latino culture is already a significant part of the mainstream U.S. culture. It's not nearly as much of a culture shock as you might think.Quote:
The culture shock aspect of Hispanic immigrants is probably somewhere in between. The might integrate they might not. I just think you are too complacent.
And? What difference does it make if the guy next door has the last name Lopez instead of Smith? The American born generation will be overwhelmingly American.Quote:
I've covered these examples and like I said for you to be complacent based on those experiences just shows that you don't appreciate what is happening right now. IIRC black people make up something like 13% of the US population, so if their birth rates are fairly average then I would expect around 1/3 of the coming generation to be Hispanic (feel free to correct this if wrong).
They already have affected our culture, our politics and our everyday life, and you know what: nothing happened. No lightning bolts have struck. We do not repel other cultures, we absorb them. We take the best out of everything and shed the worst.Quote:
Now, I'm pretty sure that the Irish, Jews, or Chinese never made up anything like 1/3 of the US population. And out of those lot you only really assimilated the Irish.
What makes you so confident that having a massive Hispanic population won't significantly alter American culture, American politics, everyday American life etc.
Read your edit and you didn't really inform me on anything. As usual, the old caveat that the birth rate is dropping amongst immigrant groups is flung out there. Well read the BBC article from the OP. Since 2008, white births fell by 11.4%. For minorities, that figure was was 3.2%. Did Hispanic immigration happen to drop during this recession? Hardly surprising.Quote:
Originally Posted by Montmorency
As always, everything is dismissed as "alarmism". But here's the reality - you are facing a major demographic shift. In fact it is so dramatic that despite being a nation built by WASP people with uniquely WASP principles, you've got to the stage where you're producing more non-white babies than white ones. There's alarmisn, and then there's denial.
You don't have problems with minority ethnic groups in the USA? This is the internet but in RL I bet you would have a hard time telling me that with a straight face.Quote:
Originally Posted by rvg
You are not concerned that you've never really assimialted any cultural group at a time when the cultural group that your whole nation was founded on has become a minority?Quote:
Originally Posted by rvg
This is just free market fanticism. And it ignores the fact that huge numbers of immigrants work illegaly and never receive anything from the state in terms of handouts. Yet there they are, causing problems.Quote:
Originally Posted by rvg
This is something I've said myself repeatedly. But you've been having it in light doses so far.Quote:
Originally Posted by rvg
If I could share your belief that the "American born generation will be overwhelmingly American", and that the only changes would be something as superficial as surnames, I would agree there is nothing to worry about. The point is as I have said I don't share your complacency.Quote:
Originally Posted by rvg
They've only ever been a tiny minority of the population, around 16%. You might be assimilating and taking the best bits right now, but can you cope with the pace of change that the article in the OP demonstrates?Quote:
Originally Posted by rvg
This is a valid concern. Will hispanics value and maintain the systems that were built by predominantly Northern European people? Again, Mexico. Or even South Central, LA. This country has absorbed a lot of immigrant influxes, both voluntary and involuntary, but it has been held together and administrated by WASPs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhyfhylwyr
You really find it that hard to believe?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhyfhylwyr
Nope. No single ethnic group has exclusive rights to this country. This is a nation of immigrants.Quote:
You are not concerned that you've never really assimialted any cultural group at a time when the cultural group that your whole nation was founded on has become a minority?
I took the liberty of bolding the important part.Quote:
This is just free market fanticism. And it ignores the fact that huge numbers of immigrants work illegaly and never receive anything from the state in terms of handouts.
Such as?Quote:
Yet there they are, causing problems.
We have 50+ million Latinos. Hardly a light dose.Quote:
This is something I've said myself repeatedly. But you've been having it in light doses so far.
You don't have to share it.Quote:
If I could share your belief that the "American born generation will be overwhelmingly American", and that the only changes would be something as superficial as surnames, I would agree there is nothing to worry about. The point is as I have said I don't share your complacency.
I see no reason why not.Quote:
They've only ever been a tiny minority of the population, around 16%. You might be assimilating and taking the best bits right now, but can you cope with the pace of change that the article in the OP demonstrates?
I've noticed that you are now painting it as WASPS vs. the rest. It seems you did take note of he fact that Hispanic births are only a quarter of total births. This is not a demographic whirlwind.Quote:
Read your edit and you didn't really inform me on anything. As usual, the old caveat that the birth rate is dropping amongst immigrant groups is flung out there. Well read the BBC article from the OP. Since 2008, white births fell by 11.4%. For minorities, that figure was was 3.2%. Did Hispanic immigration happen to drop during this recession? Hardly surprising.
As for WASPS vs. Other - well, I'm not a WASP. Values are broadly shared, however.
Corruption is a problem even with a white super-majority. It's really a matter of economic development and civic engagement, when it comes to instilling the desired values.Quote:
This is a valid concern. Will hispanics value and maintain the systems that were built by predominantly Northern European people? Again, Mexico. Or even South Central, LA. This country has absorbed a lot of immigrant influxes, both voluntary and involuntary, but it has been held together and administrated by WASPs.
Just because a nation is multi-racial doesn't mean it has to be racially divided. Mexican people like cheeseburgers and fried chicken too. Minorities seem to have a pretty easy time setting up shops and restaurants that specialize in their cuisine, so why would white people food disappear just because they become the minority?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhyfhylwyr
In Mexico the Native Americans were a lot more densely populated than in North America, and they lived in urban societies. Because of this they had to be conquered and assimilated, unlike the US where the Indians were just pushed aside. After the conquest a race-based caste system arose with Indians on the bottom, Mestizos (who make up the majority of the Mexican population) in the middle and the white Spaniards on the top. To this day wealth in Mexico is still divided along those lines. My guess is that this is where a lot of Mexico's problems come from, it's lack of opportunity and social mobility.Quote:
Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger
To Rhyfelwyr:
Hispanic people may make up a small part of the total US population, but they compose a much more significant proportion in the southwest, and there white American and Hispanic culture have been in contact for centuries. They've already largely assimilated into American culture, and America has already largely assimilated their culture. The connections between Taco Bell and Mexico are not that strong. And we're talking here about babies born in the US. They're growing up here, already surrounded by this culture, already speaking English, already listening to rap music, already eating at Mickey Dees, already watching American Idol. Are there some differences? Sure. Do they matter? I don't think so.
And this level of demographic shift is hardly unprecedented in American history. It doesn't hold a candle to the shift between 1500 and 1900. Of course the previous culture didn't come through that one too well, but unless you're suggesting that Hispanic immigrants are bringing a pandemic of apocalyptic proportions combined with genocidal intentions, I hardly think this will be so catastrophic.
Ajax
This is incredibly insulting. Do you know any mexicans Panzer? They are incredibly hard working people and are known for it. If for some reason you see a gaggle of them outside of lowes looking for work and think they are lazy and should get a real job your a fool. They are willing to do whatever work they can get that white, black, and asian americans are too good for and they will do it for less. I don't want them to be paid less but those are still commendable qualities. We could ask for far worse immigrant populations moving in and shifting the culture than hard working, predominantly catholic, individuals. I would prefer our situation to our European friends'.Quote:
The only thing that bothers me about Mexicans in particular (and I know that Mexicans only make up a portion of non-white minorities) is Mexico. They seem to have a higher tolerance for corruption, mismanagement, low productivity, and organized crime among many other negatives. The origins of the country are extremely similar to the US, but the culture and/or society just do not seem to work very well in comparison to the US (and I'm certainly not saying the US is perfect). I would hate for such bad habits to be carried over the border and then become commonly accepted as Mexicans become majorities in many areas.
Also I'm talking about mexicans in particular not other latinos.
Panzer is right. However, I am no more worried about the Mexicans than the Irish or the Italians. A heavy catholic influence generally hurts property rights and leads to the wealth being collected in oligarchies. The Mexicans may tolerate those things but only because that the way the rich act in their country and the church is in cahoots.
Also it's a misnomer that illegals will do jobs Americans wont. Those jobs do not pay anywhere near a livable wage, even if you are skimping on taxes. These illegals conger-agate around the main area of employment and leave the thing a mess.
I can't fault them thought, I fault the business owners and the American consumer
Panzers post wasn't offensive. He was not criticizing mexicans in america, he was criticizing the mexican national government and psyche. I suggest reading up on what is going on south of the border, as it is already spreading to south texas in some cases. And yes, the idea that mexicans do jobs that americans won't is completely false. The reality is that american employers aren't willing to pay a livable wage, and migrant workers often live in overcrowded quarters and go without certain novelty things like auto insurance, so they can work for less.
Am I not allowed to say Cracker on this board?
Can I call you Polly?Quote:
Originally Posted by Major Robert Dump
lol Rhy.
German and Irish immigration doesn't count as immigration? People moving from one state in europe to another wouldn't make a fuzz? History shows otherwise. I suggest you read up on the immigration waves to Britain in the 1800's. Only white europeans, no sign of peaceful acceptante, lots of hate.
Here's a linky to get you started:
http://kenanmalik.wordpress.com/2012...f-immigration/
No PJ, you're run by the Jews in the New World Order-program. Wake up sheeple!Quote:
Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger
http://motivationalmaker.com/saved_p...p42hhb7gkc.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by Papewaio
People seem to think that the USA is succeeding in its assimilation...
1. You have areas called "China Town" and so on... That points to ethnological boundaries within the society they live in, even the local one.
2. How big a percentage of the population is black? How big a percentage of the prison population is black? Don't tell me you don't have racial problems.
From my perspective, the USA only do as well as you do because, well, you do as well as you do. Being The Super Power and richest country make people by default accept things they normally wouldn't.
However, what will happen in a few years when the USA no longer have this leading position, and I think we all agree you are heading there.
Look at South Africa, look at former Yugoslavia... That should give you somewhat of an idea what happens when people suddenly go "uh, why is that group having all the money".
I have yet to see a historical case of multiculturalism working well within a national boundary. And I don't understand the nations who want to compete to be the first. Might it work? Mmmmmmaybe. Nobody knows.
Might it crash and burn and scar the nation forever? Historically very very very likely.
With that said Rhy, your food argument is just silly. The food is probably the only positive effect of immigration I can think of. And with all the real drawbacks around, it seems counter productive to your argument to focus on it.
The Backroom needs a Twitter feed. There's no way I can keep up by just visiting the site.
The US is a perfect example of multiculturalism working well, kadagar. Another example would be France, in the days when it was a major superpower.
Bergen is a third example, a city who gained exceptional wealth by Norwegian standards through its influx of germans.
The US... A bit too early to tell isn't it? We'll see what will be said in 300 years.
France... What period do you mean? The time around the French Revolution? If so, heard about the French Revolution?
Bergen... is a city, not a nation last I checked? Also, Germans and Norwegians are quite close in many things, not comparable to, say, MENA people.
I have missed you so. You are absolutely right: The U.S. will fall apart tomorrow.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV
I believe the French revolution was due to a large influx of Muslims from north Africa.
That is what you understood from my post? That the USA will fall apart tomorrow and that the French Revolution was due to Muslims?Quote:
Originally Posted by Vladimir
Kadagars statement that Germans and Norwegians are "quite close" is proof of how well multiculturalism works. Such a thing would never have been said in the 1800's, except by a handful of radicals(like Bjørnson for a couple of years).
Yes, and if aliens landed and started to mingle with us we would look at radical Muslims like "quite close".Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
What is your point here? In the 1800's people had nothing to compare to, so of course they complained when sauerkraut was made on Norwegian soil. Maybe they even, rightfully, complained that they took the jobs from Norwegians?
That is hardly comparable to now.
We have not seen rapid changes in cultural unity and foreigner intake like this since the Roman Empire fell.
The linky a few posts up disproves that last statement well.
Anyway, I forgot the most shining example of multiculturalism; India.
India is not progressing in spite of multiculturalism, it is progressing because of it. In fact the country only stays together because of it. Imagine a balkanized India, where every ethnic group has their own state. My guess is that it would've made Congo look like a peaceful paradise. The India-Pakistan tensions gives a clue as to what happens when homogenous states are created.
Hmm I dunno about that there are several violent insurgencies inside India like the Naxalites and other groups. Often it only takes a one rumour to start serious violence and the bookies are taking bets on how many muslims will get killed in a riot etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
Meh, this country still hasn't properly assimilated the Irish and the Polish. We're doomed, doomed I tell you!
My personal favorite headline so far: Army Of Minority Babies Prepares Crushing Assault On All Whites
Hmm in order for whites to be the minority dont you need to add up black, muslim, hispanic, asian and whatever else takes your fancy.
I'm no expert on racial relations or innercity life apart from episodes of the Wire but Hispanics and Blacks are hardly getting along are they?
Therfore White Merric still rules and by the time Hispanics pass them they will be classed as white too just like Italians, Irish or Poles.
@HoreTore
I consider myself to be a liberal but TBH saying that a country (any country, India, USA etc) progresses because of multiculturalism is probably going too far.
Don't get me wrong. It's a very beautiful concept, very seemly. Unity in diversity. Many people of different kinds brought together by a common national cause. But it's a lie. To sustain a state with so many different cultures requires a lot more effort. The crap the state has to face is as varied as the cultures that are part of it.
I honestly believe that India would've been better off had everyone here been a Hindu or a Muslim, or a Dravidian or an Aryan.
Would a single culture be easier, smoother and generally more conducive to progress, yes. Would it have been as......wonderful? No.
All that said, the struggle is probably worth it. No one has really succeeded as yet, but when they do, I'm sure it will be worth it.
You seriously think the possibility of succeeding is worth the price of failure?Quote:
Originally Posted by rajpoot
Again - Yugoslavia...
If you know a way to prevent different cultures from entering into one country, let me know. Till then, to succeed is the only option. And it's worth it, when compared with failure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV
Success is always worth the risk of failure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV
Except people cannot agree what success is in this case.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vladimir
That's the clever bit. Success would be when everyone agrees that they've succeeded.Quote:
Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy
By that standard everything that has ever been done, ever, has been a failure.Quote:
That's the clever bit. Success would be when everyone agrees that they've succeeded.
This argument is so stupid I barely know how to respond.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vladimir
I want to fly, but I would not jump of the roof thinking success is worth the price of failure. You would?
Not in this case.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyblades
You'll know that you've succeeded in bringing harmony to the different cultures when they all agree that they have harmony.
Wehrmacht tried, went so/so...Quote:
Originally Posted by rajpoot
Hah.Quote:
Originally Posted by rajpoot
In every issue there is always someone who will say it was a failure, and they will truely believe it.
Try. I would build a machine that flies, use a bungee cord, parachute, hang glider, etc. It's pretty simple.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV
Quote:
Originally Posted by rajpoot
We must court disharmony now in order to achieve a potential racial and demographic nirvana which nobody can agree is either achievable or acceptable at present.
Seems to me that to ignore this would be folly.
Like I said before, I don't think there is an alternative. One has to accept that as the population grows different people will come together. To try and make it work is the only way out.Quote:
Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy
Actually they tried to exterminate other cultures. I'm talking about harmony achieved through tolerance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV
[QUOTE=rajpoot;2053450973]
Want to hold hands and sing Kumbaya?
When you can make a person tolerant, then you can try with humanity. Until that point in time...
I think what he's trying to say is that there is a net gain. Genetically, ideologically, and culturally isolated societies may work but they're not desirable. Forced multiculturalism is different than gradual integration and the reason that it doesn't work is largely due to people like you who make decisions based on emotion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV
This isn't the slopes man.
Don't you yourself see the obvious flaw in your reasoning?Quote:
Originally Posted by Vladimir
No forced multiculturalism will never work, as people like me will make decisions based on emotion - IE - "You ******* Muslim trash raped my little sister because she has a short skirt so now I'll kick the living **** out of any Muslim I see if I have half the chance".
Am I saying it is right? No.
I am saying it is HUMAN.
I have no idea what you mean with your comment that this forum is not a slope, seems kind of obvious to me. Or did you mean that people are less tolerant on the slopes... Or what?
@Kadagar_AV
But the point is it is working to some degree over here. That is it is possible that if everyone puts in a little more effort, it can work out.
Where's your faith?
And furthermore I ask again, what other alternative do you have? You can't stop people from migrating. You can' stop children from being born.
The only one I know of is the one you mentioned yourself earlier on, and yeah like you said, it did not work out very well.
Sorry. Skiing reference. I'm saying that this isn't as intuitive as that and you're reacting emotionally.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV
Many bad things are in human nature; most people choose not to express them. It seems like you're treating the extreme minority as the majority.
rajpoot,Quote:
Originally Posted by rajpoot
Location: Neverland.
I think you just made my point for me.
I can put Timbuktoo in there if it makes a difference. ~:rolleyes:
What's your point anyway?
Vladimir, People will be people... We are emotional as a race. I see the human race as it is, you see it as you want, and hope, it will be. I used to do that too, before I took to much damage from it. Now I accept humanity as it IS, and try to make my decisions on how humanity is, not how I want it to be. I will try to push people in the direction I want it to be, free borders and so on... But I do not allow free borders FIRST, and try to change humanity AFTERWARDS. Of course I want a free world, who would not? But there are quite a number of things we would have to eradicate before that comes true, religions, or different religions, being the primary factor imho.
rajpoot, What's my point? If you don't see the funny side of it, I don't know how to help you.
I'm all for jokes and funny stuff. It's just that I'm slow on the uptake, specially in the Backroom. Use :clown:Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV