Non-Hispanic Whites Now Minority Births

[rvg]

This is nothing revolutionary, it is bog standard civic nationalism. The same type of nationalism that happens to be dominant in Britain and France, which continue to have serious problems integrating immigrants.

Well, we don't have those problems.

You don't have a secret because you have never really assimilated anybody.

If you put it that way, then we really have nothing to worry about.

Like I said, within Europe, the Irish or Germans wouldn't even count. It's not like we don't have small, successful Asian communities here. But when they start pouring in from the third world, there's gonna be problems.

Then do what we do: stop giving them money. Give nothing and expect nothing in return. Those of them who are worth something will float up, the losers will sink. Either way, they'll only have themselves to thank or to blame.

It's a bit of banter you get between neighbouring European states because of their history of conflict and rivalry. It just doesn't compare to say, the culture shock of modern Muslim immigrants.

I will not dispute that there's more of a gap between euros and muslims than it is between gringos and latinos. Still, the problem is with the European approach to the problem: you're paying them, and expect them to change their ways in return. What you need to do is stop paying them and stop expecting anything. Once the gravy train stops, those who want to succeed will change accordingly.

The culture shock aspect of Hispanic immigrants is probably somewhere in between. The might integrate they might not. I just think you are too complacent.

Latino culture is already a significant part of the mainstream U.S. culture. It's not nearly as much of a culture shock as you might think.

I've covered these examples and like I said for you to be complacent based on those experiences just shows that you don't appreciate what is happening right now. IIRC black people make up something like 13% of the US population, so if their birth rates are fairly average then I would expect around 1/3 of the coming generation to be Hispanic (feel free to correct this if wrong).

And? What difference does it make if the guy next door has the last name Lopez instead of Smith? The American born generation will be overwhelmingly American.

Now, I'm pretty sure that the Irish, Jews, or Chinese never made up anything like 1/3 of the US population. And out of those lot you only really assimilated the Irish.
What makes you so confident that having a massive Hispanic population won't significantly alter American culture, American politics, everyday American life etc.

They already have affected our culture, our politics and our everyday life, and you know what: nothing happened. No lightning bolts have struck. We do not repel other cultures, we absorb them. We take the best out of everything and shed the worst.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Read my edit.

Your predictions are utterly invalid because your premises are utterly flawed.

Read your edit and you didn't really inform me on anything. As usual, the old caveat that the birth rate is dropping amongst immigrant groups is flung out there. Well read the BBC article from the OP. Since 2008, white births fell by 11.4%. For minorities, that figure was was 3.2%. Did Hispanic immigration happen to drop during this recession? Hardly surprising.

As always, everything is dismissed as "alarmism". But here's the reality - you are facing a major demographic shift. In fact it is so dramatic that despite being a nation built by WASP people with uniquely WASP principles, you've got to the stage where you're producing more non-white babies than white ones. There's alarmisn, and then there's denial.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Well, we don't have those problems.

You don't have problems with minority ethnic groups in the USA? This is the internet but in RL I bet you would have a hard time telling me that with a straight face.

If you put it that way, then we really have nothing to worry about.

You are not concerned that you've never really assimialted any cultural group at a time when the cultural group that your whole nation was founded on has become a minority?

Then do what we do: stop giving them money. Give nothing and expect nothing in return. Those of them who are worth something will float up, the losers will sink. Either way, they'll only have themselves to thank or to blame.

I will not dispute that there's more of a gap between euros and muslims than it is between gringos and latinos. Still, the problem is with the European approach to the problem: you're paying them, and expect them to change their ways in return. What you need to do is stop paying them and stop expecting anything. Once the gravy train stops, those who want to succeed will change accordingly.

This is just free market fanticism. And it ignores the fact that huge numbers of immigrants work illegaly and never receive anything from the state in terms of handouts. Yet there they are, causing problems.

Latino culture is already a significant part of the mainstream U.S. culture. It's not nearly as much of a culture shock as you might think.

This is something I've said myself repeatedly. But you've been having it in light doses so far.

And? What difference does it make if the guy next door has the last name Lopez instead of Smith? The American born generation will be overwhelmingly American.

If I could share your belief that the "American born generation will be overwhelmingly American", and that the only changes would be something as superficial as surnames, I would agree there is nothing to worry about. The point is as I have said I don't share your complacency.

They already have affected our culture, our politics and our everyday life, and you know what: nothing happened. No lightning bolts have struck. We do not repel other cultures, we absorb them. We take the best out of everything and shed the worst.

They've only ever been a tiny minority of the population, around 16%. You might be assimilating and taking the best bits right now, but can you cope with the pace of change that the article in the OP demonstrates?

[PanzerJaeger]

despite being a nation built by WASP people with uniquely WASP principles, you've got to the stage where you're producing more non-white babies than white ones. There's alarmisn, and then there's denial.

This is a valid concern. Will hispanics value and maintain the systems that were built by predominantly Northern European people? Again, Mexico. Or even South Central, LA. This country has absorbed a lot of immigrant influxes, both voluntary and involuntary, but it has been held together and administrated by WASPs.

[rvg]

You don't have problems with minority ethnic groups in the USA? This is the internet but in RL I bet you would have a hard time telling me that with a straight face.

You really find it that hard to believe?

You are not concerned that you've never really assimialted any cultural group at a time when the cultural group that your whole nation was founded on has become a minority?

Nope. No single ethnic group has exclusive rights to this country. This is a nation of immigrants.

This is just free market fanticism. And it ignores the fact that huge numbers of immigrants work illegaly and never receive anything from the state in terms of handouts.

I took the liberty of bolding the important part.

Yet there they are, causing problems.

Such as?

This is something I've said myself repeatedly. But you've been having it in light doses so far.

We have 50+ million Latinos. Hardly a light dose.

If I could share your belief that the "American born generation will be overwhelmingly American", and that the only changes would be something as superficial as surnames, I would agree there is nothing to worry about. The point is as I have said I don't share your complacency.

You don't have to share it.

They've only ever been a tiny minority of the population, around 16%. You might be assimilating and taking the best bits right now, but can you cope with the pace of change that the article in the OP demonstrates?

I see no reason why not.

[Montmorency]

Read your edit and you didn't really inform me on anything. As usual, the old caveat that the birth rate is dropping amongst immigrant groups is flung out there. Well read the BBC article from the OP. Since 2008, white births fell by 11.4%. For minorities, that figure was was 3.2%. Did Hispanic immigration happen to drop during this recession? Hardly surprising.

I've noticed that you are now painting it as WASPS vs. the rest. It seems you did take note of he fact that Hispanic births are only a quarter of total births. This is not a demographic whirlwind.

As for WASPS vs. Other - well, I'm not a WASP. Values are broadly shared, however.

This is a valid concern. Will hispanics value and maintain the systems that were built by predominantly Northern European people? Again, Mexico. Or even South Central, LA. This country has absorbed a lot of immigrant influxes, both voluntary and involuntary, but it has been held together and administrated by WASPs.

Corruption is a problem even with a white super-majority. It's really a matter of economic development and civic engagement, when it comes to instilling the desired values.

[Tuuvi]

No. New York is a city. When a city is diverse you call it cosmopolitan. When a nation is racially divided by different ethnic groups each dominating their own respective parts of it, you call it racially divided. Because what functions at the city level doesn't necessarily translate to the national level.

So this is the reality for a future white American in what has become 95% Hispanic Los Angeles. He will walk into a shop to get some burgers and roast chicken and whatever white Americans eat, when suddenly... all they sell is tacos nachos and fajitas. And every shop will be the same. And he will be left wondering how he became a stranger in his own country.

It will be like Chinatown, except the whole town in Chinatown.

Does it sound silly? Well, it won't be so funny when you walk outside your door and that's the reality.



If you read my posts you will see that I have acknowledged the cultural closeness and the integration that has already taken place. As I said, the issue is the pace of the demographic change, and whether it will reach a point where the assimilation starts taking place in the opposite direction.

Just because a nation is multi-racial doesn't mean it has to be racially divided. Mexican people like cheeseburgers and fried chicken too. Minorities seem to have a pretty easy time setting up shops and restaurants that specialize in their cuisine, so why would white people food disappear just because they become the minority?

The only thing that bothers me about Mexicans in particular (and I know that Mexicans only make up a portion of non-white minorities) is Mexico. They seem to have a higher tolerance for corruption, mismanagement, low productivity, and organized crime among many other negatives. The origins of the country are extremely similar to the US, but the culture and/or society just do not seem to work very well in comparison to the US (and I'm certainly not saying the US is perfect). I would hate for such bad habits to be carried over the border and then become commonly accepted as Mexicans become majorities in many areas.

In Mexico the Native Americans were a lot more densely populated than in North America, and they lived in urban societies. Because of this they had to be conquered and assimilated, unlike the US where the Indians were just pushed aside. After the conquest a race-based caste system arose with Indians on the bottom, Mestizos (who make up the majority of the Mexican population) in the middle and the white Spaniards on the top. To this day wealth in Mexico is still divided along those lines. My guess is that this is where a lot of Mexico's problems come from, it's lack of opportunity and social mobility.

[ajaxfetish]

To Rhyfelwyr:

Hispanic people may make up a small part of the total US population, but they compose a much more significant proportion in the southwest, and there white American and Hispanic culture have been in contact for centuries. They've already largely assimilated into American culture, and America has already largely assimilated their culture. The connections between Taco Bell and Mexico are not that strong. And we're talking here about babies born in the US. They're growing up here, already surrounded by this culture, already speaking English, already listening to rap music, already eating at Mickey Dees, already watching American Idol. Are there some differences? Sure. Do they matter? I don't think so.

And this level of demographic shift is hardly unprecedented in American history. It doesn't hold a candle to the shift between 1500 and 1900. Of course the previous culture didn't come through that one too well, but unless you're suggesting that Hispanic immigrants are bringing a pandemic of apocalyptic proportions combined with genocidal intentions, I hardly think this will be so catastrophic.

Ajax

[Centurion1]

The only thing that bothers me about Mexicans in particular (and I know that Mexicans only make up a portion of non-white minorities) is Mexico. They seem to have a higher tolerance for corruption, mismanagement, low productivity, and organized crime among many other negatives. The origins of the country are extremely similar to the US, but the culture and/or society just do not seem to work very well in comparison to the US (and I'm certainly not saying the US is perfect). I would hate for such bad habits to be carried over the border and then become commonly accepted as Mexicans become majorities in many areas.

This is incredibly insulting. Do you know any mexicans Panzer? They are incredibly hard working people and are known for it. If for some reason you see a gaggle of them outside of lowes looking for work and think they are lazy and should get a real job your a fool. They are willing to do whatever work they can get that white, black, and asian americans are too good for and they will do it for less. I don't want them to be paid less but those are still commendable qualities. We could ask for far worse immigrant populations moving in and shifting the culture than hard working, predominantly catholic, individuals. I would prefer our situation to our European friends'.

Also I'm talking about mexicans in particular not other latinos.

[Strike For The South]

Panzer is right. However, I am no more worried about the Mexicans than the Irish or the Italians. A heavy catholic influence generally hurts property rights and leads to the wealth being collected in oligarchies. The Mexicans may tolerate those things but only because that the way the rich act in their country and the church is in cahoots.

Also it's a misnomer that illegals will do jobs Americans wont. Those jobs do not pay anywhere near a livable wage, even if you are skimping on taxes. These illegals conger-agate around the main area of employment and leave the thing a mess.

I can't fault them thought, I fault the business owners and the American consumer

[Major Robert Dump]

Panzers post wasn't offensive. He was not criticizing mexicans in america, he was criticizing the mexican national government and psyche. I suggest reading up on what is going on south of the border, as it is already spreading to south texas in some cases. And yes, the idea that mexicans do jobs that americans won't is completely false. The reality is that american employers aren't willing to pay a livable wage, and migrant workers often live in overcrowded quarters and go without certain novelty things like auto insurance, so they can work for less.

Am I not allowed to say Cracker on this board?

[Papewaio]

Am I not allowed to say Cracker on this board?

Can I call you Polly?

[HoreTore]

lol Rhy.

German and Irish immigration doesn't count as immigration? People moving from one state in europe to another wouldn't make a fuzz? History shows otherwise. I suggest you read up on the immigration waves to Britain in the 1800's. Only white europeans, no sign of peaceful acceptante, lots of hate.

Here's a linky to get you started:

http://kenanmalik.wordpress.com/2012...f-immigration/

[HoreTore]

This is a valid concern. Will hispanics value and maintain the systems that were built by predominantly Northern European people? Again, Mexico. Or even South Central, LA. This country has absorbed a lot of immigrant influxes, both voluntary and involuntary, but it has been held together and administrated by WASPs.

No PJ, you're run by the Jews in the New World Order-program. Wake up sheeple!

[Greyblades]

Can I call you Polly?

[Kadagar_AV]

People seem to think that the USA is succeeding in its assimilation...

1. You have areas called "China Town" and so on... That points to ethnological boundaries within the society they live in, even the local one.

2. How big a percentage of the population is black? How big a percentage of the prison population is black? Don't tell me you don't have racial problems.


From my perspective, the USA only do as well as you do because, well, you do as well as you do. Being The Super Power and richest country make people by default accept things they normally wouldn't.

However, what will happen in a few years when the USA no longer have this leading position, and I think we all agree you are heading there.

Look at South Africa, look at former Yugoslavia... That should give you somewhat of an idea what happens when people suddenly go "uh, why is that group having all the money".

I have yet to see a historical case of multiculturalism working well within a national boundary. And I don't understand the nations who want to compete to be the first. Might it work? Mmmmmmaybe. Nobody knows.

Might it crash and burn and scar the nation forever? Historically very very very likely.


With that said Rhy, your food argument is just silly. The food is probably the only positive effect of immigration I can think of. And with all the real drawbacks around, it seems counter productive to your argument to focus on it.

[Vladimir]

The Backroom needs a Twitter feed. There's no way I can keep up by just visiting the site.

[HoreTore]

The US is a perfect example of multiculturalism working well, kadagar. Another example would be France, in the days when it was a major superpower.

Bergen is a third example, a city who gained exceptional wealth by Norwegian standards through its influx of germans.

[Kadagar_AV]

The US... A bit too early to tell isn't it? We'll see what will be said in 300 years.

France... What period do you mean? The time around the French Revolution? If so, heard about the French Revolution?

Bergen... is a city, not a nation last I checked? Also, Germans and Norwegians are quite close in many things, not comparable to, say, MENA people.

[Vladimir]

The US... A bit too early to tell isn't it? We'll see what will be said in 300 years.

France... What period do you mean? The time around the French Revolution? If so, heard about the French Revolution?

Bergen... is a city, not a nation last I checked? Also, Germans and Norwegians are quite close in many things, not comparable to, say, MENA people.

I have missed you so. You are absolutely right: The U.S. will fall apart tomorrow.

I believe the French revolution was due to a large influx of Muslims from north Africa.

[Kadagar_AV]

I have missed you so. You are absolutely right: The U.S. will fall apart tomorrow.

I believe the French revolution was due to a large influx of Muslims from north Africa.

That is what you understood from my post? That the USA will fall apart tomorrow and that the French Revolution was due to Muslims?

[HoreTore]

Kadagars statement that Germans and Norwegians are "quite close" is proof of how well multiculturalism works. Such a thing would never have been said in the 1800's, except by a handful of radicals(like Bjørnson for a couple of years).

[Kadagar_AV]

Kadagars statement that Germans and Norwegians are "quite close" is proof of how well multiculturalism works. Such a thing would never have been said in the 1800's, except by a handful of radicals(like Bjørnson for a couple of years).

Yes, and if aliens landed and started to mingle with us we would look at radical Muslims like "quite close".

What is your point here? In the 1800's people had nothing to compare to, so of course they complained when sauerkraut was made on Norwegian soil. Maybe they even, rightfully, complained that they took the jobs from Norwegians?

That is hardly comparable to now.

We have not seen rapid changes in cultural unity and foreigner intake like this since the Roman Empire fell.

[HoreTore]

The linky a few posts up disproves that last statement well.

Anyway, I forgot the most shining example of multiculturalism; India.

India is not progressing in spite of multiculturalism, it is progressing because of it. In fact the country only stays together because of it. Imagine a balkanized India, where every ethnic group has their own state. My guess is that it would've made Congo look like a peaceful paradise. The India-Pakistan tensions gives a clue as to what happens when homogenous states are created.

[gaelic cowboy]

The linky a few posts up disproves that last statement well.

Anyway, I forgot the most shining example of multiculturalism; India.

India is not progressing in spite of multiculturalism, it is progressing because of it. In fact the country only stays together because of it. Imagine a balkanized India, where every ethnic group has their own state. My guess is that it would've made Congo look like a peaceful paradise. The India-Pakistan tensions gives a clue as to what happens when homogenous states are created.

Hmm I dunno about that there are several violent insurgencies inside India like the Naxalites and other groups. Often it only takes a one rumour to start serious violence and the bookies are taking bets on how many muslims will get killed in a riot etc.

[Lemur]

Meh, this country still hasn't properly assimilated the Irish and the Polish. We're doomed, doomed I tell you!

My personal favorite headline so far: Army Of Minority Babies Prepares Crushing Assault On All Whites

[gaelic cowboy]

Hmm in order for whites to be the minority dont you need to add up black, muslim, hispanic, asian and whatever else takes your fancy.

I'm no expert on racial relations or innercity life apart from episodes of the Wire but Hispanics and Blacks are hardly getting along are they?

Therfore White Merric still rules and by the time Hispanics pass them they will be classed as white too just like Italians, Irish or Poles.

[rajpoot]

@HoreTore

I consider myself to be a liberal but TBH saying that a country (any country, India, USA etc) progresses because of multiculturalism is probably going too far.
Don't get me wrong. It's a very beautiful concept, very seemly. Unity in diversity. Many people of different kinds brought together by a common national cause. But it's a lie. To sustain a state with so many different cultures requires a lot more effort. The crap the state has to face is as varied as the cultures that are part of it.
I honestly believe that India would've been better off had everyone here been a Hindu or a Muslim, or a Dravidian or an Aryan.
Would a single culture be easier, smoother and generally more conducive to progress, yes. Would it have been as......wonderful? No.

All that said, the struggle is probably worth it. No one has really succeeded as yet, but when they do, I'm sure it will be worth it.

[Kadagar_AV]

@HoreTore

I consider myself to be a liberal but TBH saying that a country (any country, India, USA etc) progresses because of multiculturalism is probably going too far.
Don't get me wrong. It's a very beautiful concept, very seemly. Unity in diversity. Many people of different kinds brought together by a common national cause. But it's a lie. To sustain a state with so many different cultures requires a lot more effort. The crap the state has to face is as varied as the cultures that are part of it.
I honestly believe that India would've been better off had everyone here been a Hindu or a Muslim, or a Dravidian or an Aryan.
Would a single culture be easier, smoother and generally more conducive to progress, yes. Would it have been as......wonderful? No.

All that said, the struggle is probably worth it. No one has really succeeded as yet, but when they do, I'm sure it will be worth it.

You seriously think the possibility of succeeding is worth the price of failure?

Again - Yugoslavia...

[rajpoot]

You seriously think the possibility of succeeding is worth the price of failure?

Again - Yugoslavia...

If you know a way to prevent different cultures from entering into one country, let me know. Till then, to succeed is the only option. And it's worth it, when compared with failure.